BA's A380 vs CX

[Oval3Holer]

British Airways rolls out big question for Hong Kong ally | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/04/07/british-airways-a380-rolls-out-a-big-question-for-cathay-pacific-ally/)

[Five Green]

Love that all two Airbus staff and their kids showed up to wave the flags !

FG

[Frogman1484]

Good article and spot on. :D

[Captain Dart]

CX, once a world leader in long-haul, cabin service and a fairly astute purchaser of aircraft, has dropped the ball big-time on this one.

But don't worry, the warmed-over Boeing will have BA, QF, EK and SQ shaking in their boots :hmm:.

[Max Reheat]

And cue..... cxorcist!

Are you not there boy?

I can't hear you!

You must be there?

You can't let an article like this go unanswered....

cxorcist..... where are you???????

[cxorcist]

I've missed you too, Max. Nothing to add here. You guys have got this one all figured out. CX execs have no idea what they are doing. I wish you guys were in charge. Then we'd all be rolling in bonus money.

[Flap10]

CX execs have no idea what they are doing

You've just figured this out now?? :ugh::ugh:

ASL debacle
Basings debacle
49er debacle
...etc

Put these same execs in a location and environment where competition is cut throat and see how they would have fared.

[Pucka]

Once again, it's the passenger pragmatically and the magnetism of new technology as opposed to recycling Boeing modeling that confirms the day. It'll be interesting how corporate CX dig themselves out of this one.

[RetiredBA/BY]

As a long time Boeing Captain, but someone who has travelled, own expense back and forwards between Sydney and London 3 times a year for the last 10 years on 74s 77s 330s and 340s , the A380 , I have concluded is the ONLY way to fly very long haul, a view reflected by ALL my friends and rellies who have flown on it.
That "party room" at the rear of the upper deck really is excellent (on EK) but the smoothness and quietness of the aircraft is totally unmatched by other types, Boeing or Airbus, and my guess is that when fuel is $200 a barrel and rising, only a matter of time, those airlines without the A380 for their long haul trunk routes simply won't be competitive !!

Frankly, I would have thought that if any airline needs the 380, then its CX for the HKG-LHR route ! CX hasn't just dropped the ball they have walked off the pitch.

But bean counters, lacking in flair, innovation, and forward vision, rule the day !

[The FUB]

No VLA order would allow any new incoming management team, other than Swire, to make their own decisions and stamp their own corporate identity.

[Trafalgar]

....when your management spends most of it's time planning and plotting against their own employees, it is quite easy to miss rather secondary concerns....like, oh....ordering the aircraft necessary to ensure market dominance. Good luck when the BA 380's start arriving in HK.

[Threethirty]

Cathay will only buy the 380 when its on show at Duxford. I'm pretty sure the Chinese fake bullsh&t economy will have imploded by then.

[twotigers]

Booked Christmas holiday travel on the BA A380 a few days ago in Business.
Staff travel on CX just isn't worth it, let alone what paying pax are going to think.

[Arfur Dent]

If most of world's top players choose the 380, Cathay Managers faith in the 777 may be a stroke of genius. However.............?

[nitpicker330]

The Chinese fake economy?

How many zillions of dollars in reserves do they have again?
How much of the world do they own again?
How much interest do they get paid by other countries again?

Fake?? Yeah right!!

[cxorcist]

I find it interesting that LH has a greater concentration of premium seats (F+J) in their 747-8Is than in their A380s. Apparrently they did not get the memo that the A380 is "the ONLY way to fly very long haul" when they decided to put the -8I on many of their best premium markets. Maybe the "warmed over Boeing" isn't as horrible as its made out to be. Has anyone here actually flown on the -8I and the LH A380 for a comparison? I'm curious...

[Frogman1484]

If the 747-800 was that good, everyone would have them in their order books:ugh:

Sorry mate but the 380 is the future!:ok:

[Steve the Pirate]

Has anyone here actually flown on the -8I and the LH A380 for a comparison?

Apparently Pucka has as I asked the same question in the previous discussion on this topic. Whether he's flown on the LH A380 I'm not sure as he didn't say but he has flown on both types.

STP

[cxorcist]

Let's hear it Pucka...

I'm specifically interested in cabin noise, ride, cabin pressure and humidity.

I'm not interested in seats, IFE, bars, lavs, etc because every airline chooses differently on those items.

[Liam Gallagher]

Don't forget, it is Cathay policy to serve neither alcoholic or hot drinks to any person not seated in their assigned seat, irrespective of the status of the seatbelts sign. That will be one of hell of party room.....

Good for Swire Bottlers though, another Coke Sir??

It doesn't matter what aircraft we use, we have lost the plot when it's come to the "customer experience", the girls are the star of the show,- no distractions allowed.

- Entertainment system available pre-departure, and in the descent- cannot

- An OCD like compulsion to not allow anyone to have anything not bolted down in descent... Duvets, Newspapers, shoes, games, bags, noise cancelling headsets,- cannot

- savouring that half finished drink? they will fight you for it when the call comes to clear away the meal service. God-forbid you ask for more;- cannot

Just dozing off to sleep or enjoying that action movie? How about a three language PA informing you Duty Free sales are about to start. What's more important, your pleasure or the girls' commission?

Wanna watch that movie, first sit through 4 mins of naff graphics and Ads before each movie or TV show. Isn't the ticket price enough?

In seat Internet access,- same as lie flat beds in Business Class, we will be last adopters.

And finally, I saw the safety brief, I read the sign in front of me telling me to have my seatbelt on, I heard the first set of three language PAs when the seatbelt signs came on the first time, I heard to the FAs waking everyone to ensure their seatbelts are fastened, I heard the banging on the toilet doors, I heard the babies start crying when removed from the bassinets, I heard the parents arguing that it was a dumb policy, I heard the FAs warning them to behave or the Captain will divert the aircraft, ......BUT

Do I really need the three PAs everytime the seatbelt signs come on subsequently? If I forget the routine, the FAs do come through the cabin to remind me.....

Ahhhh.... That feels better......

[Max Reheat]

Liam,

That is all fine but they are just doing their job as per Company policy.
If you don't like it, don't complain about the CC; go and actually do something about it, maybe GMIS would be a good place to start, and if one is out of the office, the other should be there to field your questions.

Please start with the question about the IFE. I suspect it comes from the cavemen at the CAD rather than CX policy.

Max

[Liam Gallagher]

Thanks,

I just knew someone would respond on those lines. If you had read the first six words of my post you would have seen the phrase "Cathay Policy".

The individual girls have no more influence over policy than I, but nonetheless the Policy is defective in not meeting customer needs. The only people who can address this is ISD.

CAD is the Regulator, but Cathay is not without influence and Cathay sets a Policy out of whack with the desires of our customers. Again, the only people who can address this is ISD. So long as what we do is not dangerous, do you think CAD cares?

Regarding the IFE, I recall a few years back the IFE was trialled on pre-departure and ISD quickly declared that customers did not like it. I suspect what customers did not like was the IFE being interrupted by naff PAs in 3 languages telling them the aircraft was being refuelled and the passengers are not allowed to smoke. PAs informing them that if they are struggling with their bags, the Cabin Crew will kindly offload their bags. PAs telling them that Duty Free sales will be available in-flight. PAs in 3 languages telling people to sit down, when an individual FA could just as effectively do it with a stern look and a hand signal. Also, I think it was back in the day everyone had to sit through the naff health in-flight video and I suspect that when all the interruptions were taken into account, nobody actually got to a see any entertainment at all!! Strangely, when surveyed customers thought the idea of the IFE being on predeparture was pointless..... Which it was!!

Meanwhile, our competitors have the IFE running and headphones are allowed to be used at all times. PAs are kept to a bare minimum so as to not disturb passengers. Phones/games/laptops can be used until door closes or aircraft moves and even then a pragmatic approach is adopted.

What a novel concept,- Service before ideology.

[2 cents]

Liam,

You hit the nail on the head, I couldn't agree with you more. The slow painful death by PA on this airline has gotten out of control. Passengers just want a little peace and quiet. Even some of our Captains PA's are painful. I was on a YVR flight recently and the Capt's welcome PA went on and on and on; weather in YVR, weather in JFK, time checks for everywhere, route details, repeat again blah blah blah. It's 1 am, nobody cares about the time and weather in JFK! (And if I did, I'd check my iPhone). I have recently discovered (along with many passengers these days), the bliss of a Bose noise canceling headset along with loading all my own entertainment on my iPad. No interruptions, and improves my inflight experience and environment dramatically.

[captncannot]

Who actually uses IFE any more? I have state of the art touch screen IFE and broadband on the ground, on the airport express, in the lounge, and at destination. It's called an Ipad. They'd be better off ripping the whole system out and replacing it with a wifi system, like the modern airlines.

[BalusKaptan]

I'd love to add my 2 cents worth but Liam, you have put it so well. Exactly right. The Company is responsible for this debacle and debacle it is. I commute and just listening and observing the other pax I can assure all..they HATE it.
'nough said.

[dflyer]

As British Airways (BA) looks to begin a new era by introducing the Airbus A380 superjumbo on the London Heathrow-Los Angeles route October 15, and the London Heathrow-Hong Kong route November 15, whose 469-seat 4-class configuration with 14 First Class seats, 97 Club World business class seats, 55 World Traveller Plus premium economy seats and 303 World Traveller economy class seats will be one of the least densely configured A380s,,,,

[boocs]

Not trying to stir the pot, but I have seen the LH pax 747-8i parked in HKG lately, looks great!! Is this the one from Frankfurt or Munich?

b.

[geh065]

FRA. The MUC flight is still a 346.

[crwkunt roll]

I don't see how the 748-i can compete with the A380 in terms of pax, LH is configured with 360 or so seats, their A380 is 480 or so. It's a little bit bigger that a 400 sure, but Very Large? No. Not sure what CX's config might be.

[Captain Dart]

My base airport has a huge sign at the entrance off the freeway saying 'Fly the XXX (airline) Airbus A380 to XXX').

Can't imagine that 'Fly the Cathay Pacific Boeing 747-8I to Hong Kong' would have the same eclat.

[badairsucker]

I agree Captain Dart,

For the record, i'm not on the Airbus but I must say, I feel the A380 is a game changer. Passengers love the A380, they aren't concerned about how much cargo fits in the hold, they like the features it offers.

[cxorcist]

Why not?

It seems the Germans don't share your opinion. In fact, the -8I is more of a premium carriage for them than the A380 is. Mathematically, it has a much higher percentage of premium seats than their A380s. Look at the destinations: LAX, HKG, IAD... Not exactly backpacker cities. Indian routes using the -8I because the A380 isn't allowed in.

[FlyingEagle21]

Quote :RetiredBA/BY

As a long time Boeing Captain, but someone who has travelled, own expense back and forwards between Sydney and London 3 times a year for the last 10 years on 74s 77s 330s and 340s , the A380 , I have concluded is the ONLY way to fly very long haul, a view reflected by ALL my friends and rellies who have flown on it.
That "party room" at the rear of the upper deck really is excellent (on EK) but the smoothness and quietness of the aircraft is totally unmatched by other types, Boeing or Airbus, and my guess is that when fuel is $200 a barrel and rising, only a matter of time, those airlines without the A380 for their long haul trunk routes simply won't be competitive !!

Frankly, I would have thought that if any airline needs the 380, then its CX for the HKG-LHR route ! CX hasn't just dropped the ball they have walked off the pitch.

But bean counters, lacking in flair, innovation, and forward vision, rule the day !

I concur. Makes the 777 sound like my wife.

[badairsucker]

It seems the Germans don't share your opinion

But I guess the the rest do.....:ok:

[cxorcist]

Are you saying you'd rather your wife look like the A380? Hmm, don't sign me up for that fat pig. I'll take a sleek 777 wife with long legs and two big donks.

[BuzzBox]

Get real folks, judging by the loads we carry Cathay doesn't have much trouble attracting passengers HKG-LHR v.v or HKG-LAX v.v. with the 744 or the 777. Surely Cathay's choice of VLA (if any) will come down to the operating economics of each type. Given that Cathay carries a LOT of under-floor freight, I suspect that cargo capacity will be an important factor in any decision. I honestly don't know the numbers, but I suspect the -8I might edge out the A380 on the routes where Cathay is likely to operate a VLA.

[hawkerjet]

I'm a corporate pilot and fly throughout the world and as such spend a lot of time in the back of large airliners.. I can honestly say that the A380 is my choice of travel if there ever is an option to pick. I flew long haul from Seoul to LAX in business class and wondering if the Captain started all the engines when we took off. I also took a short flight in economy from HKG to BKK and marvelled at all the space... Before it was the tripple 7 as my choice because most long haul flights from where I travel use the -300ER model and thats fairly new so I enjoy the latest in entertainment and decent comfort. The oldr 747's rattle around so much it's hard to get rest but I do love the upper deck. There is just no comparison, from my point of view, when traveling as a passenger; the A380 is most comfy hands down. I do select A330's over Boeing aircraft, when traveling short and medium range, I like the 2-4-2 arrangement and I always choose the window seat. Now I am talking strictly as a passenger

[CodyBlade]

Actually correct their LF so high they don't give a crap about playing catch with a new toy.

Business is too good..

[Dan Winterland]

I'm the only one in my family who hasn't been carried by the 380. My lot (all experienced travellers) say it's the quietest and most comfortable of all the airliners. Passengers like it and will chose the type if there's a choice.

[ZFT]

Must be me then. Flown on it quite a few times now, both SQ and TG and to be frank, I can't understand what the hype is about. Flew to LAX direct on an SQ A345 and back upper deck (via Tokyo) on their A380. Same seats, same comfort level, similar noise levels. Both excellent.
Flown on upper and lower deck on TG A380s, both long haul and regional with similar comments.
Like all Airbus, it's quiet and smooth.
The only aircraft I personally dislike is the B777, noisy beast and those centre aisle overhead luggage bins - still got the scars!!
(Probably my age but I still prefer the B744 to anything).

[Frogman1484]

A380 experience was great , very quiet and spacious. My flight to LAX on a 777 in economy class was so noisy that I could hardly here the movies through the headset.

747 is great but you will find that the 777 variant will kill the 800 passenger program.

[akerosid]

I think that's true; it would be very surprising if at some stage in the future CX were not a customer for the 777-9X. That pretty much kills the 747-8.

The problem for the 747-8 is that it's at the end of the 747 line, whereas the A380-800 is the first in that family; sure CX would prefer the -900, but given the right price and commitment of the -900 at a certain time in the future, I think CX can be tempted to go for the -800.

CX has said that a decision can be expected around the middle of this year and now we're in May; perhaps something to be announced at the Paris Air Show?

[SMOC]

The only way I see CX getting 747-8I's is if it's tied to some sweet exchange deal for 777X's in the future.

[cxorcist]

Yes, I agree with SMOC. It's interesting that Boeing's board just approved sale of the 777X last week. This while the -8I model sits on display up on the Peak. There was also a big -8I advertisement on a billboard just outside CX city not too long ago. Boeing is definitely courting CX hard right now. Purchase or lease of -8Is would definitely allow CX to accelerate retirement of the 400s before big numbers of A350s start showing up later in the decade. This is something CX is clearly keen on doing. Yet, there are still around 18 77Ws to be delivered. CX can simply replace the 400s with those if they have no intentions to grow.

[spleener]

1. Trouble with labor laws: France
2. A380's available from: France
3. Paris airshow: France

A possible convergence, non?

[cxorcist]

Spleener,

An interesting take, and one I had not thought of. Do you think CX is ready to poke a stick in the French eye. I wonder. Does that make the labour situation better or worse? Does the CEO even know what's going on with the Paris base closure?