Cancel speed

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Hi,
This might be in the wrong spot (sorry Mods), but I have a question regarding HK ATC 'Cancel speed'.
When conducting the Ocean 2A departure and on first contact with depature, ATC say ' cancel speed'.
Some of the crew I fly with take this to mean that the 'Max 220 KT until established on track to TD' is cancelled (as well as the 250 below 10000), some take it mean that the 250 below 10 000' but the '220 until TDK' remains in force.

I can't find a reference anywhere to clarify.

Can anyone out there point me in the right direction for a definitive answer?

Thanks

Coolnames

[cxorcist]

I'm not an expert when it comes to regs, but I think it cancels both so I crank it up to Econ climb speed once above the MSA (4300').

[Tonto Kowalski]

It cancels the 220kt AND 250kt/10000'. There's a note on the port page about it.

[The FUB]

250 kts till 4300ft then econ climb. Forget all the cufflink oldies saying not above 300kts till above 10000ft. However, don't select above 250kts till above msa even if the ac won't achieve this speed until above msa.

[cxorcist]

The problem with 300kts up to 10K is the level off at 9K'. Crossing traffic over TD at 11K'. Might as well stay "low and fast" until past TD and the traffic overhead there. If you need a max angle type of climb, cash in those knots after TD when you get a higher FL.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Thanks guys,

I appreciate the feedback. I'm actually after the reference that 'cancel soeed' cancels the 220kt until established on track to TD.
On the Jepp plate 10-1P9, the only ref to the 220kts is note 3-2-2-1 which states that "pilots should comply with the published speed restriction...."
The QANTAS Route Manual Sup (I assume the same type of thing as your 'port page' has nothing about the cancel speed situation).

Without sounding ungrateful or disrespectful, I'm not after the way to fly it, but rather the actual ref that states what 'cancel speed' means.

Thanks again

Coolnames

[Ex Douglas Driver]

We (CX) have had it confirmed from HKG ATC that when they say cancel speed, they take responsibility for terrain separation in the SID turn (the reason for the 220kt restriction is restrain the turn radius), therefore you are cleared to accelerate to whatever your company allows below/above MSA and below 10000ft.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Thanks EDD,

It would be nice to have that in the Jepp so that all airlines are aware of it.
I was one who believed that the 220kts was/is a SID design contraint, so find it hard to accept that ATC can 'take responsability' for terain sep if one exceeds the design criteria of the SID
Again, the www doesn't allow for 'tone' to be heard, so please don't take my comments as a 'go at you' they certainly are not, I'm grateful for your input.

Do you have a screen shot of your Port Page with this in it?
Might be useful having something similar in ours, as I find it an unnecessary and possibly dangerous distraction, when three piolts all have different views on this during departure.

Thanks again

[Ex Douglas Driver]

From the HKG AIP
3.4 TRACK KEEPING ACCURACY
3.4.1 SID procedures are based on aircraft accurately following the published track as defined by the SID navigation aids, reporting points and waypoints. Pilots using FMS/RNAV equipment should note that in order to ensure terrain clearance, Hong Kong SID Significant Points/Waypoints PORPA, PRAWN and ROVER are 'flyover' locations. All other SID Reporting Points/Waypoints are ‘flyby’ locations and turn anticipation by the FMS/RNAV is permitted, however pilots shall comply with the published speed control procedures to limit the radius of turn, unless otherwise advised by ATC.
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/ENR/HK_ENR1.5.pdf

From our HKG Port Page
CANCEL SPEED CONTROL: immediate acceleration is available at any point on the departure (subject to company SOP speed requirements) after ATC cancel speed control. ATC will already have calculated that the aircraft will remain within the departure terrain safety area with allowances for climb performance, wind and higher departure speed.

The AIP quote is pretty clear, but I'd suggest you get your company's flight ops department to formally contact HKG ATC if further clarification is needed. From a driver's point of view, ATC will apply radar terrain separation (rather than the procedural terrain separation provided by the SID) and "cancel speed control" when:
1) prior to the turn when you're already near or above the radar min alt and have a good rate of climb e.g. once you're above 4300ft, the 220kt restriction has no purpose; or
2) they see you're in the turn and nearly established on the outbound track anyway - again with no chance of extending out to the east and infringing on the radar min alt segments while below their height.

[bekolblockage]

Ex Douglas Driver has pretty much nailed it.
For the majority of departures, most controllers will use the phrase "after the right turn, cancel speed restrictions" to take the turn radius/terrain bit out of the equation. As said, it cancels everything.

ATC

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Thanks EDD,

I could find no reference in the Jepp world wide text. I didn't think to check the HK AIP:ugh:


Cheers

[Tonto Kowalski]

As a line driver you should be able to rely on the Jepp and company manuals. We (CX) don't refer to the the Aus AIP when we operate there...

[Dan Winterland]

I concur with EDD.

The RNAV SDI initial turns are RTF (Radial To Fix) and require the track to be maintained to acheive the RNP1 constraints. 220/230 must be maintained until on track to the next WP.

[treboryelk]

so do you agree with EDD or disagree?

If ATC cancel speed before the turn, 250 below relevant MSA and accelerate after relevant MSA IMHO!

[bekolblockage]

Dan, only the 'E' and 'F' SIDs use the RF (radius to fix) path terminator.
(You must be on the 777 or -8?)
If you cancel the speed, the FMS should automatically adjust the bank angle to maintain the radius. Up to a limit of course (23-25 degs from memory).
The other RNAV SIDs do rely on the speed to contain the radius.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Tonto - True. That's the job of Line Ops and their regular close reading of the various AIPs and interpretation for our day-to-day ops for inclusion in port pages (or other companies' equivalent).

At the end of the day, by retaining the 220kt restriction, despite being told to cancel all speed restrictions, they are not doing anything unsafe and are not violating any ATC instructions.

[744drv]

I also recall that chart being published. However, I believe it was used to point the finger at a group of individuals who were ignoring the speed limit because 'they had a bigger picture' :ugh:

[Lowkoon]

If the performance engineers have worked out that 220kts is the maximum speed you can fly without blowing out the turn and getting too close to the rocks, how can ATC take responsibility for the terrain separation? what criteria do they use and how is it different to what the performance guys calculate? Does ATC do any calculations at all? Genuine questions, I dont know what the answer is.

[SloppyJoe]

I expect it is a headwind requirement coupled with your altitude and how close to the start of the turn you are. Possible something along the lines of must be above 3000', within 3 miles of the turn and groundspeed not above 210kts or something similar before they can remove the 220kts restriction. As previously posted some days they say once on track to x no speed restrictions and on other days about 2 miles to the turn the say no speed restrictions.

[nitpicker330]

1/ in my experience its very rarely given that early....
2/ if you are not sure then simply hold 220kts until established on the relevant Sid track and then go for it.......
3/ stir in a little HP sauce for flavor....:ok:

[cpdude]

If the performance engineers have worked out that 220kts is the maximum speed you can fly without blowing out the turn and getting too close to the rocks, how can ATC take responsibility for the terrain separation? what criteria do they use and how is it different to what the performance guys calculate? Does ATC do any calculations at all? Genuine questions, I dont know what the answer is.

Because THAT calculation is based on the minimum rate of climb required for terrain clearance criteria. Obviously most aircraft climb at greater than minimum rate of climb and once high enough, the speed is irrelevant. As an extreme example, if you were 7000' 3 miles from PORPA do you think it would matter then?

Cancel speed restriction is clearance to cancel ALL speed restrictions issued by ATC which includes any speeds on charts. It does not cancel speed restrictions imposed by your Company SOP's. (250kts to MSA)

[BalusKaptan]

Cancels ALL ATC speed restrictions. Balls to the wall, but, Company limits still apply of course. i.e. 250k until above MSA.

[Lowkoon]

Agreed CP Dude, of course it matters not if you accelerate when above radar lower safe or MSA, of course you cant hit anything if you blow out the turn. Agree entirely, but my question was what calcs do ATC do to clear the requirement? What do the departure controllers implement to clear us when there is an obstacle defined restriction? Is it simply a matter of observing our current ROC?

[White None]

i.e. 250k until above MSA.

Correct for Light Twins; however, don't forget that in a big grown up aeroplane you can goto Vref +100 below MSA which could be 280kts+ :ok:

[cpdude]

Lowkoon,

Departures paths use criteria based on minimum values to determine terrain clearance. These are based on the minimum rate of climb required as is stated as "standard" with either PANOPS or TERPS etc. My memory fails me but I believe it's about 200'/nm on departure. Any departure which requires a higher ROC will have the minimum ROC required posted on the departure sheet.

Based on the minimum ROC the turn at PORPA allows for only a turn radius associated with a speed of 220kts. Not being an ATC type, I'm not sure what formulas are programmed into their computers but I'm sure they can automatically calculate your current altitude, ROC and speed and make the calculation seamlessly and automatically for the controller to then clear you unrestricted or high speed.

White None,

You are correct once cleared for high speed.

[crwkunt roll]

Who knows if they even need a formula....? When you're cleared for high speed before Porpa, you're normally ALREADY above the highest piece of rock on your departure track before they give it.

[Steve the Pirate]

however, don't forget that in a big grown up aeroplane you can goto Vref +100 below MSA which could be 280kts+

On the 'bus it's the greater of 250kts or green dot speed. On a heavy 340, GD can be up towards 280kts. Does that mean that the A340 is a big grown up aeroplane too? :)

STP

[cxorcist]

STP,

No. The evidence is hanging on the wings.

[treboryelk]

If you were really big and grown up, you wouldn't need to ask ATC to go faster than 250kts!

[White None]

STP

Sorry, according to the rules towards 280kts doesn't qualify. It HAS to be 280+. Love to help but..... Cannot, (Not that I'm displaying the raging inferiority complex all Jumbo drivers will vehemently deny now that the BigBus is around). :{

[SMOC]

While at the hold it's nice to look down into the cockpit of the Bigbus next to you. :E

[treboryelk]

You can look down on me from your freighter any time you like with that 'I'm flying rubber dog**** out of Hong Kong' smirk.

[White None]

I Love Rubber Dog****. It doesn't get lost/pissed in the terminal, it doesn't pinch my bum. It doesn't bleat if we're late or require apologies for stuff out of my control. It doesn't say "Cannot". It doesn't expect me to buy it, and it's mate's dinner and it always respects me in the morning.

[White None]

Sshhh.... ;)

[treboryelk]

So is flying the freighter that good? Maybe the pay and rosters are not as bad as some make out!

[Liam Gallagher]

You are Nick Rhodes and I claim my £5. ;-p

[White None]

Trevor the Moose

Amazing that so many in the company STILL!! don't know that most of us fly both, on the same pay. Having the seniority to do so I now get to pick either and where poss, fly freight. Why?.... See above.

[treboryelk]

Good stuff....though sounds like you wont be in a hurry to fly the -8i if Cathay buys them?

[crwkunt roll]

Love the thread creep.

[JY9024]

Ok,

Now that this thread has gone "Off Topic" with the usual "im better than you" BS.

I have another ATC question.

The requirements at FL130 inbound to HKG, if ATC clear you below can we disregard the restriction?

If not, often they descend us to an altitude, do we have to maintain STD until passing the waypoint, ie pass at FL130 ISO 13000 on QNH (on our charts the restriction is FL130)

I would be interested in hearing from the ATCer's on this one.

JY

[White None]

Isn't your question off

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Topic_%28chocolate_bar%29.jpg

And we're only better if bigger is better, which my wife assures me is true. :uhoh:

Apolooogies for any inappropriate self-effacing humour, maybe we should get back to thread about speeds...... HEIGHT, sorry, ALTITUDE; maybe we could free flow in a friendly way? Beer O'Clock Methinks

[Near Miss]

As I understand it, reading OPS A 8.3.9.1 2a and FCOM 3.03.17 P1 (note 1), stay in STD until passing the FL130 restriction. Unless you are cleared "Unrestricted descent".

[Sand Man]

New NTC states "SID speed control restrictions are still applicable unless specifically cancelled by ATC." So when ATC cancel speed restrictions on departure is that specific enough for the SID speed or is it only for the 250 below 10K'? Do they need to say cancel SID speed restrictions?
The NTC has introduced doubt into my thinking where there was none before by using the words "specifically cancelled".

[JammedStab]

No doubt, freighter flights are much preferred by those in the know...A well kept secret, apparently, that having no F/A's or pax to deal with, usually no terminals, and no cockpit door - meaning self-serve drinks and food whenever - awesome.

Most importantly, almost all of the most arrogant, overbearing and unpleasant douche bags are elsewhere, too, looking down upon the most pleasant and easy-going cockpit environments in the company - not to mention a multitude of extra challenges vs. the pax trips.

Plus, we have the whole upper deck to ourselves:D so a choice of seats or the bunk. And turbulence is no big deal.

[bekolblockage]

Its amazing what you can find in the online AIP and AICs.


ENR 1.7 ALTIMETER SETTING PROCEDUREShttp://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/ENR/HK_ENR1.7.pdf

SID / STAR and Terminal Transition Route (TTR) Level Restrictionshttp://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/aic/AIC40-12.pdf

I understand your confusion with the latter. The instructions to controllers are just as vague as to how the cancellation should be phrased.
Some say, "Climb/descend unrestricted to ...."
Others say "Climb/descend now to ....."

Neither of which really fulfill the ICAO requirement to explicitly cancel the specific restriction (s).

And so the confusion continues......:hmm:

If in any doubt, ask. We have about 1,700 flights a day through the Terminal Area now, so the chances of meeting someone above/below you are pretty good.

I can tell you now, descend early before MURRY without the restriction being specifically cancelled and you may be staring a Shenzhen departure or a Macau arrival in the eyes.