View Full Version : Jetstar (and VA) issues towards NZ negoiations

3rd Apr 2013, 00:10
Since the last thread got closed down ( doesn't seem to happen to Qantas threads) I thought I would continue one under an accurate title to avoid being closed again.

As a Kiwi working in Australia I am in total agreement with what I was reading.
My Kiwi colleagues have without exception taken the moral high ground with VA Australian colleagues, they have been asked to fly domestic in Australia and the first thing they do is ok it with Australian Unions. That is called courtesy and professionalism my friends and something that is not always reciprocated.

If we did all work together, as QF should have done with JQ, this infighting would largely cease.

Why did Australian based pilots undermine a NZ group wishing to negotiate? If the Kiwis were to reciprocate that favour can you imagine the abuse,
some would call that hypocritical.

I am heartened that many at VA would not do this to VANZ, although they are still looked down upon by some. The treatment of their seniority is insulting and does not create any sort of comradeship between groups. How do the VANZ guys respsond now if the company offers them some bigger Metal or routes into Asia. Gets harder to take the moral high ground as this sort of treatment continues.

Bula, what Jetstar NZ did to Australia is exactly what you did to QF. However at least the NZ guys lived in a different country with a completely different set of laws and conditions and fly NZ based routes. Not quite the same can be said of what JQ Austraia did, some may call you a hypocrite also, but not me.

3rd Apr 2013, 00:24
Quick question

Are there any direct entry commands available in the land of the long white cloud presently?

Pm if you prefer...

3rd Apr 2013, 02:20
Did you have some spare asterisks lying around that needed to be used or something? :confused:

3rd Apr 2013, 02:46
Are there any direct entry commands available in the land of the long white cloud presently?


AirNZ are offering them on the B777. The only problem is you have to do min hours, have a great lifestyle and get paid twice as much as the other pilots.

Just ring HR and they will book you in for the free type rating.

always inverted
3rd Apr 2013, 02:47
Did you have some spare asterisks lying around that needed to be used or something?

Seriously, do you have to just be critical of something so trivial. Grow up. Not wally related to the topic, but I bet you are a kiwi hater too...
If you don't have anything constructive to say, then keep quiet...
Yep, I had a few spare full stops...

3rd Apr 2013, 03:12
Thanks always. Happened due to my typing in outlook and pasting over. Small things.

3rd Apr 2013, 04:14
First up, youre dealing with jetstar, not aussies. Second of all, jetconnect.

3rd Apr 2013, 04:46
Maggot. First point taken although the attitudes exist elsewhere and as I said I don't think VA would do this to VANZ.

Second point, yes partly agree, QF built up those routes. However it was managements decision to start that flying based in NZ, such as should Air NZ open a Brisbane base pilots would apply should the conditions satisfy them. Obviously the $ play a big part, but traditionally Tasman flying is much better based out of NZ due time zones and consequent productivity/utilisation that results.

But what the thread was talking about is the equivalent of JC operating domestic sectors while you had your argument with AJ.

Not good.

Anyway my post isn't intended to start a p. contest. Start the dialogue and work as one.

3rd Apr 2013, 05:18
Air NZ (ALPA) pilots have a scope clause. If AirNZ wants to start up a subsidiary jet operation anywhere, it has to be offered to AirNZ pilots first, on their conditions. I reckon you should look into it.......

3rd Apr 2013, 06:07
Astina, good for you that you are attempting to discuss things in an open and constructive manner. My post was more of a reason, not an excuse. However, someone did mention it in the other thread, that paying the oz jetstar guys excessive amounts could have contributed to getting your deal? It does seem like a pretty good improvemnt too from my outsiders uninformed eye, youll never get everything you want and i can imagine the gutted feeling watching your 'collegues' behave in this way. Individual morals and ethics and excuses aside, the company will go out of their way to crew flights and, as sad as it seems, there will be the willing amongst us.
Youre right, i cant see the VA guys doing similar but you're talking about a very different company and contracts.

always inverted
3rd Apr 2013, 06:38
Astina, sorry, you misread my post... I was having a moan at AerocatS2A not you.
Guys, that's where you would be wrong... VAA are not entertaining any common ground with the VANZ crews, staying at different hotels. They want us right at the bottom of the list, even under s/o's who aren't even qualified on the types we fly, ie, they don't meet the req's for the 737 fleet and when they do, need to do another interview and sim I think... So why should they take precedence over guys that have been around for years longer...
Integrated seniority would have been better, BUT blocking off he Australian commands for the Aussie f/o's and the nz commands for nz f/o's until they have had a chance to attain the left seat then its open to all. But now they have VANZ on the bottom of the list, that's if the NZ crews want to be part of it... Aren't they negotiating at the moment as well.

always inverted
3rd Apr 2013, 09:58
There is a way and it could backfire on the vaa guys shortsightedness... But I guess time will tell if the nz crews are willing to try it.

3rd Apr 2013, 22:46
Always. No, I was literally thanking you for pointing out the asterisk police.

5th Apr 2013, 21:55
Under the VAA/VAI/VANZ integration policy the VANZ pilots have not been sold out at all!

Prior to the agreement, all operations were effectively silo'd, meaning neither group had any rights to the flying or operation of the other group..

Under the new agreement, VANZ pilots have been placed at the bottom of the VAA seniority list but with VANZ commands protected, VAA pilots have effectively been placed at the bottom of the VANZ pilot list as well.

No Australian pilot can take a job or promotion away from a VANZ pilot. What the agreement does is enable NZ pilots access to the Australian operation complete with better pay and conditions. A VANZ pilot employed 3 days ago is now senior to a VAA or VAI pilot for that matter who was employed yesterday. Is this not a better situation than VANZ pilots had previously?

I don't see any benefit in this deal for any Australian based pilot especially in the short term. VANZ access to VAI had ceased as of this year anyway so any hope these guys had to progress across to the 777 was gone.

VANZ continues as per normal with jobs and commands protected for VANZ pilots. What has changed is they now have access to the Australian operation.. With all the expansion occurring at VAA currently this over time will be of benefit to VANZ pilots. With the demise of the VANZ domestic operation, realistically, how much future expansion is there? Any expansion will be protected for VANZ pilots anyway. There are only so many islands in the pacific to fly to..

Integration is not an overnight solution.. It is designed so that in the long term, all pilots may at some stage benefit. VAA command protection for FO's over VAI or ex VAI CRFO's has a sunset clause based on 20 years.

The other option was to silo VANZ. This would ensure no VANZ pilot ever transfers across to VAA unless they resign from VANZ and apply like everyone else,off the street.. Under the terms of the policy they can transfer inter company.

I know there are many senior Captains at VANZ annoyed that their years of service have not been taken into account by putting them at the bottom of the list.. On the flip side numerous even more senior pilots at VAA have been placed below less senior pilots at VANZ with VANZ commands protected..

The integration policy was not formulated overnight. It took over 8 months to design and write. It wasn't just a case of 'right we have our policy, now lets just put the kiwi's at the bottom and get this over and done with'. Much thought was put into their position and in the interest of fairness NZ commands were protected in the same way VAA commands were protected for the most junior F/O's.

There will always be those who can't see the woods from the trees and will always feel they have been shafted. Integration is never an easy job. Airlines in the US are still perusing legal action decades after their integration.

If VANZ got A330's (highly unlikely I think, although some in VANZ seem to think its going to happen even though JB has said they have no plans to do this) than I don't see why the VANZ senior pilots should not have priority to operate these.

6th Apr 2013, 01:23
in the interest of fairness NZ commands were protected in the same way VAA commands were protected for the most junior F/O's. Not correct, if anything VANZ fo's have more protection - VAA fo's have no protection over VAI pilots (except cruisers).

If VANZ got A330's (highly unlikely I think, although some in VANZ seem to think its going to happen even though JB has said they have no plans to do this) than I don't see why the VANZ senior pilots should not have priority to operate these. The protections only cover 737 or similar, not WB.

But of course when Virgin Pacific starts none of this will matter...:cool:

6th Apr 2013, 01:45
So why do the VANZ pilots feel they have been hard done by and shafted (yet again supposedly)?

As I see it they have more to gain out of the deal than anyone else.

With bypass pay for VAI SFO's it was thought that not many if any SFO's would want to move to domestic. I would love to be a 777 f/o on captains wage. This is one reason the protection did not cover VAI Captains or SFO's.. If it did it would have been a very one sided policy.. We can come and fly the 777 based on our seniority but you guys can't come and do the same. Remember the 777 has no protection for its pilots unlike VANZ. All positions are pure DOJ from the seniority list which means no SFO will ever get a 777 command.

I know the policy does not afford protection for wide body aircraft for VANZ, but a: I don't think they will ever get them (both SD and JB confirmed no plans for this) B: if they did my personal thought is they should have first crack only for the guys employed before the integration policy of course.. Just my opinion.

Always inverted.

Your suggestion is exactly the was the policy works. VANZ commands protected for VANZ f/O's and VAA commands protected for VAA f/O's. maybe you misread the policy?
As for the CRFO's not meeting the requirement for a 737 F/O, really? Do you want to guess how many CRFo's have over 10,000 hours, were ex westwind/ Learjet training captains, ex Dash 8 check and training captains, ex Braz training captains, ex 727/767/757 F/O's. the Answer is a lot! sure some are low time but I recall VB hiring 737 F/O's at one stage with little over 1000 hours total and only a CPL. Contrary to popular belief, CRFO's didn't apply for a 777 position because they missed out on VB or were unqualified for a position on a 737. Many applied because they wanted to try long haul and because it was a good opportunity to have a go of a 777.

6th Apr 2013, 08:05
What the?

Any pilot employed into VAA will be on current VAA terms and conditions. Any pilot employed into VAI will continue to be on VAI terms and conditions and not some B scale VANZ contract. VANZ pilot will continue on whatever EBA they manage to negotiate. Like it or not NZ is a different country with different industrial laws and requirements. Superannuation, insurance, industrial law are all different. You can't expect any and all conditions to be made available to all parties across different countries.

Skywest will at some stage also be included into the seniority list but they will retain their own T & C's. if they choose to move to VAA, then they will then be employed under the VAA EBA be it better or worse than the Skywest one!

6th Apr 2013, 10:25

Incorrect. VANZ had 2008 seniority with respect to VAI positions and have had a number of crew transfer over.

"On the flip side numerous even more senior pilots at VAA have been placed below less senior pilots at VANZ with VANZ commands protected

Incorrect also, unless VAA has a captain that started after July 2012 which I can name none, all VAA and VAI crew are senior to VANZ pre July.

My offsiders at VANZ are aggrieved as they have were told from VB 2008 is their group date for opportunities. This date has been used for VAI transfers, so to now place them at the bottom is an issue. Many felt 2008 should have been the date with VAA 737 F/O's protected. That was the status quo and left them opportunity to transfer to VAI slots.

However I agree, it is a good opportunity for them with no growth left on that side. Its also a lot better than what they had, aside from 777 transfers.

Also agree - no B scale here. Cathay don't pay HK wages to AKL base. If they transfer to VAA they get a VAA contract.

6th Apr 2013, 11:21
Not really incorrect at all.

VANZ had a number of pilots transfer to VAI. None of these pilots have had any 2008 date recognized under integration. Not a single one.. That door had also been closed permanently so the last VANZ pilot to transfer was really the last.

HR department who supposedly made the offer of a 2008 date to be recognized denigh it was ever given reference any Australian operation. How could it without consultation and approval of the Australian group or without at least a full reciprocal arrangement giving VAA pilots the ability to go to VANZ with a 2008 date for which there is none. There was no consultation with the Australian Union either on this matter.

VANZ have command protection for F/O's so by default even the most senior Captain from VAA with a start date of 20 Aug 2000 (the date the first 25 non management pilots were employed) cannot apply or be awarded a VANZ command ahead of any current F/O there for making them junior on the VANZ list. this is exactly the same for VANZ pilots on the VAA list. VAA pilots are at the bottom of the VANZ list and VANZ pilots are at the bottom of the VAA list. how can this not be fair? There is no 2008 date recognized for VAA pilots on the VANZ list.

VAA pilots are not trying to screw over VANZ crew. With little to no expansion and slow command progression who would really want to go. Add to that lower salaries and condition. With a few more 737 on the way, a few more A330's and either A350's or 787's announced by the end of this years I don't see anyone going anywhere.

We stay at a number of the same hotels as VANZ as well. Melbourne and Sydney and until recently Brisbane. VAI and VAA Don't even stay at the same place in Brisbane anymore. I'm not sure who told you we are to precious to stay at the same hotel as NZ crew? It's utter rubbish.

If this does change it will be a contract, room availability issue and not at the request of VAA/VAI crew.

6th Apr 2013, 18:21
It is unfair as I know first hand from several friends who did transfer to VAI, 2008 was used as seniority to gain an interview. Ie they could not get an interview unless they were in the top seniority of applicants. From there it was merit as there was no seniority for promotion. Some have also gone to 737 also at the level as VANZ.

Now they can't apply for those same VAI positions, don't know about you but that is unfair. VAI kept seniority into list so why were VANZ placed on the bottom. There were no promises to VAI either. Vanz are the group that had documents and precedents set for 2008. Why not just keep it simple, seniority based on when you joined the group, protect our F/O's for command.

VAA/VAI pilots have been transferring to VANZ with their group seniority date so you are incorrect. Odd DEC and quite a few F/O's. They still have group doj and are more senior to their examiners checking them to line.

Not sure where the hotel issue came from, but yes agree with you on that.

6th Apr 2013, 20:55
Life unfortunately is unfair.

Where does it all stop?

I was at the company EBA meeting in 2003 ( i think from memory) where Godfrey stood up in front of the pilot group and told us we were going to be flying the Pacific. He made the promise that the Vb Pilots would crew all flight.. His exact words were " it's not a matter of if but when you guys start flying the pacific". He even had written into the EBA that was being negotiated at the time a pay rise of $7000 and a one off cash payment of another $7000 as an international allowance for such an operation..

After the EBA Was voted in only three months later, he announced PB, hired NZ pilots and then refused to pay the promised money. We were well and truly screwed over and were all extremely pissed off at the time. We had in writing (contained within our EBA) a promise of VB crew flying the pacific. How many PB crew know this story? I hold no grudge and feel no ill will towards any VANZ pilot. We quite often see them in the hotel or in immigration and I always stop for a chat with them.
Fast forward a few years and we arrive a V Australia.. Once again certain guarantees were made. Before we know it, guys from South Africa, Fiji are employed to fill F/O positions despite there being more than capable crew within VB who could easily fill those position.. V Australia only started with 1 destination. Numerous 737/EMB F/O's have since transferred across without any problems. Only now are positions being filled by VAA crew.
The pilots employed by V Australia were also made promises. They were promised quick 777 commands and progression. These pilots packed up their families, resigned from their current positions and moved to a foreign country based on this guarantee. Fast forward a few years and the reality is none of these people will ever see a 777 command. They are now behind 800 domestic crew.
If we accept and abide by all promises there would be no workable integration policy. VAA pilots would expect their original rights and promise to operate all pacific flying, they would also expect all SFO positions on the 777 with the removal of the guys hired from outside the company to fill those positions originally. The SFO's on the 777 would require all 777 commands over the most senior VAA pilots. The CRFO's would demands strict DOJ and the VAA F/O's would in turn demand all VAI pilots go to the bottom of the list.
Because of the above stated mess, the question was asked "who's promise outranks who's". That all depends on which side of the fence you happen to sit.
Once again we arrive at a totally unworkable system.
In the end it was decided to protect VAA jobs for VAA pilots, VANZ jobs for VANZ pilots. The biggest losers were the VAI crew, not the VANZ pilots. They ended up with no protection at all! There is no command protection at VAI. Bypass pay is one thing, obtaining and actual command and warming the left seat is another. Most pilots strive for a command, not to sit in the left seat getting captains wages.
The integration group looked at all contracts, listened to all promises and guarantees made ,be it verbal or in writing and over eight months or so came up with a policy that whilst not completely fair for everyone, did not lump the full brunt of integration on any one group. No single group wins and no single group loses either.
If the VANZ pilots wish to untie the integration policy, how about the VAA crew present their original guarantee which was put in writing and contained within the EBA to the judge for review. After all they were guaranteed all pacific flying three months before the was a pacific Blue!
The other option of course is for VANZ to completely silo. This will not affect VAA or VAI in the slightest and I'm sure they will happily go along with this.
What VANZ have gained out of integration is not perfect or everything they may want, wish for or expect, but it is more than they have at the moment. No other group got all they expected either.

always inverted
6th Apr 2013, 21:44
The problem with the said integration doc is that the nz crews have not seen the finalised one that you guys voted on so how are we supposed to make any sort of decision based on fact if we don't have any of them, I still don't see why they couldn't have 1 list based on doj, then protect the respective commands in nz and au at vaa and have wide body transfers based on doj, no one would loose out then despite what gets thrown around... But the document should Not have been in the eba, just like we didn't agree that it was in the nz CEA which was voted down cause it was disgusting.
It is something that the groups could have worked on to TOGETER, not nz being told what is happening.
Wrt to the promise that was made by Godfrey, only you could say, I personally can't comment on that one. But IF you had it in writing, given there are 1000 odd pilots in au, why then would your union not have commenced industrial action about a breach of eba... Maybe cause it was just offered as a comment, the allowance referred to would not in itself assure that Dom crew would get the flying... But again, not sure on that... But it still strikes me as VERY odd that a union minded work force like that of VB/VAA would let that go without a fight, and I don't remember there being one...
I do remember something about your duty limits that they put in there and you guys thought they would never be able to use, but they did, think it was wrt the Denpasar flights or something, again, not entirely sure...
There was a big push to get the integration doc thru on the threat of what MIGHT happen, but the truth is, nz crews don't want to shyt on the au crews in the slightest but you see us as a threat to Australian jobs, but all the time that nz has a significantly less contract to you guys this perceived threat will always be there.
Nz is not selling itself short, thy are actively negotiating with the company and you can only get so much from a company. Rest assured, if we sign a contract off, it will be the best that our neg team could get.
I would like to think that we can all work together- metaphorically of course, but when you get called a scab, Mexican, this just isn't that cool, and was accused of taking Aussie flying by a flight attendant! Next time that happens I will most surely get their name and follow it up against the kwof policy.

Life is unfortunately not fair...
Correct, we are doing the pacific flying, you guys arent for whatever reason, who cares, as long as we still all have jobs then growing the company the best we can surely is the end goal because that will hopefully ensure jobs and a good lifestyle for years to come. But you just need to look sideways at the red rat to see what happens if it is done wrong...we have a great company which is still very young, lets keep doing what we do and make it even better. John is doing a great job from where I sit, so lets just help him as best we can.

6th Apr 2013, 22:28
fmcinop makes a good point. A judicial review would resolve this. The panel should be totally independent of all parties concerned.

Just to add my two bobs worth on previous discussion. A date of joining list by its name sake, should be strictly the date you joined the group. Anything else is not a DOJ list.

The company insisted on making the DOJ issue part of the VAA negotiations. As a result the Australian unions have had to create a outcome that would gain a positive vote from only the VAA pilots. Surely one group (VAA) shouldn't have the power to vote on other group (VAI VANZ) employment recognition.

Employment issues are for HR.

7th Apr 2013, 00:00
VAA and VAI based in Australia on Australian T&C's
VANZ based in NZ on NZ T&C's.
Different country, different management, different conditions.

Is Jetconnect on QANTAS seniority list? Can they transfer to QANTAS Australia? I think VANZ are lucky to be on the list at all, based on the facts above.
The problem with allowing VANZ pilots to use the 2008 date, is that it will displace too many pilots from VAA, pilots that have already been displaced by VAI. Considering 60 VANZ pilots applied for 6 VAA 737 f/o positions recently, it gives you an indication of their intentions.

As for the threats for future flying.
If they get A330's good luck to them, they can brag about being the lowest paid A330 pilots in the World.

7th Apr 2013, 00:45
If it were all one sided the VAA guys would all be at the top and everyone else would be down the bottom. VANZ would also not have any command priority.

Many VAA F/O's don't feel all warm and fuzzy with the policy either. They feel cheated and robbed as do many Captains who believe VAA was the first kid on the block with the initial promises made to them so they should prevail.

My point being VAA have not come out on top because it was voted for in their EBA. VAI voted for a separated pay scale without consultation with VAA. WHat pay grade do the VAA F/O's go on when they transfer to VAI. IT's not level 5 like the rest of the SFO's. What about the most companies most senior Captains transferring from VAA to VAI. They are not on level 5 either. Where was the consultation then during the VAI EBA and why aren't the VANZ pilots up in arms over this travesty. VAI voted for thing that affect VAA crew without their approval or thoughts during the VAI EBA. Lets not now point the finger at others. VANZ did not consult anyone in 2008 just as VAI did not consult anyone during their last EBA. At least VAA set up a committee made up with representation for VAI and asked VAI pilots for their ideas.

The integration committee was made up of representatives from the AFAP and VIPA both international and domestic. Surveys and email were sort from all parties as to what they wanted out of the policy. The final outcome voiced the opinion of the majority of those who bothered to respond to the surveys and questionnaires.

VANZ could have just been left out of the mix altogether and not been a part of the deal. This was discussed but was thought to be too unfair, so in their interest their commands were protected and they were given access to the Australian operation which many in VAA objected to.

VANZ in owned by VAA but is a foreign operation in a foreign country. If VANZ pilots are so thoughtful and courteous why did they not approach the VAA pilots and unions back in 2008 to find out what we thought of the deal and to seek our approval? The first we heard of this deal was during the integration negotiations only a few months ago. Why did VANZ not bother to inform their Australian counterpart of such an important and critical policy?

The idea of integration is to stop the us and then mentality and to put and end to the infighting. Your doing our flying and we should be operating those sectors etc. This will not happen overnight and will take many years.

VANZ are in a better position than they were in prior to the integration policy. I'll bet there would be over 1000 pilots who would all chip in to fight any legal battle that is brewing over the rights of foreign crew do dictate and demand anything from an Australian operation who were not informed, consulted or asked about a policy to allow foreign pilots full access to an Australian operation based on a date marked in the sand for an overseas company. In the end they may very well find themselves silo'd for good.

Oh hang on, I was told and it was put in writing for me and about 400 other pilots that we would be doing all international flying. Right oh guys. Hand it over! Where does this all end?

We are trying to avoid this sort of behaviour and infighting so we may at some stage all live harmoniously all working for a common goal that will in the long term benefit the entire group. Threatening legal action and the destruction of the integration policy or forced modification of will only lead to hatred and distain and will further intrench the us and them ideal.

For the guys who made the move to VAI, dug up their families, sold their houses and actually made the move over the pond based on the promise of a 2008 date and 777 command, I personally believe they should have special consideration given to them. I really feel for these guys especially.

Management were not pushing integration at all. What they said was you guys go and work it out and play nice or we will silo everyone. There is a cost to the company with integration. A 737 Captain moves to the 777, an ejet Captain takes their spot, a 737 F/O take the Ejet command and they employ a new ejet F/O. Under A silo they promote a SFO to 777 Captain keeping in mind less training etc and promote a CRFO to SFO and hire a new CRFO.Both promotions in this case are people already operating the 777 so training is greatly reduced.

Having been a AFAP member for many years and a state REP etc I have never seen or heard of any request from VANZ for help with their EBA or T & C's. We negotiate our EBA in Australia, they negotiate theirs in the same manner in NZ. We work in different countries, operate under different laws etc have a different cost of living. You cant expect the same for both operations in two totally different countries.

By putting VANZ pilots to the bottom of the VAA list how does this affect their ability to negotiate their EBA? Pilots hired for VAA will be on VAA pay and conditions just as those who go to VAI will be on their T & C's. If a pilot is employed for VANZ then they will be on VANZ conditions. Did the lower pay and conditions at VANZ affect the VAI or VAA EBS's? NO! WHy did the company not use that card during negotiations here. Those VANZ guys do it for this much, so you guys need to rethink you salary log of claims.

For those who choose to move to Australia the door is now officially open, for those who don't it business as usual with absolutely no change for you.

What The
7th Apr 2013, 01:05
And there we have it. A divided workforce with a them against us mentality willing to drop turds on each other from a great height.

Looks like Borghetti did learn a few tricks from his time at QF. Classic Oldmeadow I.R. strategy!!

Work together Virgin Group pilots or you will forever be fighting each other and not the company. If you don't learn from the lessons of the QF JQ history you are bound to repeat the same mistakes.

7th Apr 2013, 01:58
Yes that is correct, we need to work as one which was the point of this thread. Fmc, agreed, thanks for acknowledging it is not a fair process. But as you say we need to move forward as one.

always inverted
7th Apr 2013, 03:40
The question needs to be asked, what would the Aussies gain by ordering the pacific flying to be done by Australia? Shafting 170 kiwi crew out of jobs? There is nothing to gain by anyone taking anyone else's flying. Bottom of the list is better than no list at all has been quoted around the traps, but is it really.

Just out of interest, can someone send me a copy of the integration part of the eba, given it is under schedule 4 and not in the main body of the document. I would be interested to see exactly what it says because it might clarify a few things.
I know I was employed to fly the routes we currently fly, I knew that I didn't have the option of wide body progression easily within the group, I can see the benifit of the list but a lot can't because of the ate we were given. I still can't see why we can't have a doj list with the commands for nz and au fos blocked off, anything else should be doj based, it isn't that hard but it requIres all parties to have an open mind and listen.
As a note, herd that the company's reps dealing with negotiations have said they haven't dealt with a group that are able to come up with a solution and are non confrontational before which if true says something.

I totally accept the different country different conditions thing and have NEVER expected the au money, some have... But as someone else alluded to on here wrt, if you have a doj list, then that's what it is, blocking commands for each nz and vaa is a good will gesture thing for both I think and it's good that this has been done, but all nz on 01/07/2012 is not doj.

One of the reports that came from the company said that they basicly didnt really care about a list, it didnt make much difference to the company, but recognised the benifit for the pilot group, so I very much doubt they insisted that it be included as it could then open them up to issues which will not be discussed here, but to say that nz have done nothing after hearing about the integration doc is actually inaccurate...

7th Apr 2013, 06:09
No Australian Pilot would be stupid or selfish enough to demand all the Pacific flying back to the detriment of NZ crew. If they did they would be taken out back a spoken to in a firm manner before a ceremonial beating.

VANZ are here to stay. The flying they do has been their for year and thats the was it should stay. We were promised it over a decade ago...Get over it everyone. We don't want to put them out of work and would hope they would feel the same about us.

always inverted
7th Apr 2013, 06:58
Fmc, good call...;) the nz boys would definitely NOT try shaft you guys, we were asked to do some domestic flying- recovery flights, and that decision was put to AFAP and VIPA to okay. No reduction in conditions and pay was matched an approved by you guys so no worries here, we have your back...

Angle of Attack
7th Apr 2013, 08:18
Lol ground hog day but another company, try being a QF F/O with 12 years in company and still no chance of command... It is all relative...

always inverted
7th Apr 2013, 08:40
Yep fair call, I think the days we have enjoyed at virgin of 3 years to command have passed, still quicker than the likes of Qantas and ANZ, but longer than we have been used to. Again, we all just need to look at other carriers to realise that we work for a pretty good company. But all companies have their issues, if it wasn't pay, we would be moaning about the quality of the meals we get on the plane...:ugh:

7th Apr 2013, 08:46
I have an idea!

How about we drop the PB guys off the list and let them fly their own aircraft on their own patch.

Seems to me that this is all a bit too hard and I have yet to meet any crew wanting to transfer over to NZ so it will not upset too many if any in VAA or VAI.

7th Apr 2013, 09:35
I think you will find the majority of VANZ guys are willing to accept (doesnt mean stoked about it at all) the current senority list. Whilst it may not be fair to those promised things, such is life, and I know that most of the boys can see the forest for the trees.
The opportunity to be on a senority list of an Australian company whilst living and operating in nz under nz contract is unheard of. Personally I think straight doj with all commands protected for all 3 groups is fair, but I accept that is not what is on offer so I certainly wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face. And if everyone is honest and the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure the situation would be the same. Pilots are a funny bunch and are fiercely protective of anyone getting ahead of them in their career.
I have heard of potential legal case surrounding the 08 start date given, but not sure how true that is and it would be a shame if something like that created divisions that the effects would be felt for many years to come.
You will find that any preferred progression for VANZ guys to oz is generally going to be towards vai. Most guys are not interested in the least for VAA. The few that are, are the Aussie guys, of which some are not going to be welcomed home with open arms due to, to be pc, ones who did not back up their co workers many years back. And who want the goods without being in a union :=
The boys see the long term potential in being part of the company, still perhaps the Mexicans if the company isn't going to come close in t's &c's, but at least not illegal Mexicans.
And with regards to widebodys in VANZ, it would be great and guys are hopeful one day, but also realistic. I suppose the oz boys probably hope they wouldn't go there. Only the company knows what it wants to do end of the day, so by them putting a long haul clause into current negotiation is only words as far as guys are concerned, a potential carrot just to keep everyone living in perpetual hope...

7th Apr 2013, 10:01
Min wage.

One of the most level headed, well thought out post I've seen in a while. With people like you in VANZ, I'm sure a good working relationship can evolve between all groups.

You should have access to the VB pilot site. There is a Pac Blue area there so I'm guessing you have all been invited and have logins.

If you logon You will read that many VAA and VAI crew are quite unhappy with integration as well. Many did not get what they wanted or wished for. I was once told a successful policy is one that everyone hates. That means there are no clear winners and that was the name of the game. A little bit for everyone, but not to much for anyone.

always inverted
7th Apr 2013, 19:53
Min wage, I absolutely agree with your post. :D
And if it was up for a vote right now, I would be voting in favour, but not to say it is perfect, but at least it will prove that we are not here to take anyone else's job, screw anyone over.:=

Fmc, I don't honk we do have access to this forum, would be interested to know how to get on tho... Interesting that you guys are not happy with the intergration issue either but I still can't understand why it was put in.

7th Apr 2013, 21:24
In addition to what minimum wage has written, I'd like too to put forth some thoughts from someone on the inside over the ditch.

First of all, it's incredible how a little bit of hearsay from one person can balloon into quoted facts and figures after a little while of which some come to rely upon to prove a point. Whilst a few longer serving guys are not happy with the way the list has turned out, you'll actually find, many can recognise the potential and possibilities of what has happened with the VAA guys recognising us. Although nobody has started with VANZ in more than a year, those FOs last to join have only potentially lost a matter of weeks or months recognition of their start date.

It's disappointing to see attitudes like ad-astra who view us as a bunch of faceless mexicans joining as an easy backdoor into VAA. How is it all too hard? At what point were you personally disadvantaged with VANZ being put on the bottom of the list? More often than not, these guys have applied for the PB/VANZ job to be in the country where they already lived and grew up and have little interest in flying au domestic operations, just as the aussies probably wouldn't want to fly domestic in NZ, even on the VAA conditions. I'm sure there are heaps of guys who'd love to do the pacific flying, but not on VANZ conditions. The simple fact is, nobody wants to transfer to NZ not because of the flying, but because the of the conditions. Who would with the salary differences between VA and VANZ!??

It's a real task trying to get the point across that the guys down here have no malicious intentions in what we're doing, nor are we biting at the heels of VAA to take your jobs. Put your hand up if someone from PB/VANZ has stepped in over the top of you for a role? Further to that, you are now GUARANTEED it will never happen with the DOJ list.

For some, VANZ will always be viewed as the place where people who couldn't get a job in domestic go, and unfortunately there's not a lot we can do about that. We are fighting hard in negotiations to improve our conditions, and we would hope that there are a few VAA and VAI guys out there who support that. With the company integration and leaps in certain conditions for VAA and VAI, VANZ have been doing our best to start aligning our conditions too. With over 90% union membership we are better situated than ever.

As long as the discrepancies in the T's and C's exists there will always be us and them from those who are earning more. Most VANZ guys love to have a chat with the VAA guys and I think to a large extent, the sentiment is reciprocated.

Some people are unhappy in VANZ about the list, but at the same time many see the potential and take the good with the bad. People in VAA and VAI are upset with the list too, but it was never going to make everyone happy. Everything that affects the VAA guys (VANZ domestic flying for eg) is done in good faith and nobody moves unless it is okayed by the right people. When VAA fly relief sectors to the islands, nobody here jumps up and down because we know the company wouldn't do it unless they needed to.

Anyway, I could go on and on. The bottom line is that we want to work together but we can only do it if you want to too.

7th Apr 2013, 22:35
Great post. It's good to see we can work as one, hopefully a positive future for all. As I said in my first post I am heartened that VAA would support VANZ in negotiations. We can be an example for others.

8th Apr 2013, 00:30

I am not sure how my comment turned into me having an "attitude" such as you described.

I certainly hope that your terms and conditions are brought up to the same as VAA. I do understand that there are reasons for the disparities but certainly the payscales should be a lot closer at the very least!

It seems that the decision to incorporate the VANZ list in a group list without consulting the NZ pilots was a mistake.

With hindsight if that consultation had occoured and the prospect of a full datal list as wanted by some VANZ pilots was realised by the VAA pilots then the EBA vote may have been somewhat different or alternatively the integration model contained within the new EBA may have only included VAA and VAI to acheive a successful EBA outcome.

The prospect of another failed EBA vote and the companies promise that they would walk away from intergrating the pilot lists would have resulted in siloing of all three groups for the foreseeable future.

Not a prospect that at least 80% of the VAA pilots wanted.

If there is a challenge to the integration and consequently the NEW EBA which very importantly is still yet to be ratified by FWA then at least 80% of VAA pilots would most likely think that this is indeed "all too hard" and accept a VAA/VAI intergration without VANZ is better than no EBA at all.

For the vast majority of VAA pilots they are not directly affected by the inclusion of VANZ into the group list but if that inclusion results in the New EBA to be delayed or cancelled then their ambivalence to the issue most definately will change.

For those in VANZ that want to challenge the integration it is their right but be aware that as it is included in a yet to be ratified EBA the Pandoras Box they are opening cannot be closed.

8th Apr 2013, 01:35
Namotu, great post agree with everything you say.

Four points

1. EBA negotiations should not have been part of integration. They are 2 very different things.

2. Because the company forced the issue, it became the au-unions responsibility to include NZALPA in the talks. And by talks I mean negotiations where compromises are reached.

3. AFAF and VIPA didn't invite NZALPA to REPRESENT VANZ. (Yes I know they visited, they were basically told this is how its going to happen)

4. A DOJ list was created that precludes VANZ real date of joining.

The saying "I'd rather eat $h!t because i don't like spinach" springs to mind. No one is going to have the policy undone. It's a good long term outcome, and lets face it most of us are at VA for a career.

The guys who transferred to VAI with the expectation of 08 may have a case, as they made the decision to transfer family and all with the 08 signed document in hand.

8th Apr 2013, 06:22
Seriously, do you have to just be critical of something so trivial. Grow up. Not wally related to the topic, but I bet you are a kiwi hater too...
I'm not in to self hate ;).

8th Apr 2013, 06:34
Thanks for your well considered replies. Ad-astra, I must say on initial reading of your first post, it came across in a way that led me to draw the conclusion that I did. After you have clarified exactly why, I understand and I do apologise. It is a frustrating matter for all, and I do now see your side of the equation. As for whether there are enough in VANZ who want it challenged, I can't say. Considering the circumstances, it does sound like an 'all in' approach if they do challenge, with the possibility of coming out the other end empty handed.

Voz1, some great points. I understand that this all shouldn't have been part of contract negotiations but I'm certain the company knew what they were doing when they handed it over to the unions. Sort it out amongst yourselves perhaps, without upsetting anyone from their end.

Given the stagnation in pilot turnover on both sides of the ditch, I think we are all hoping VA is a career company. Australian operations are certainly shaping up to be. As for NZ, we all hope so too, although it's now up to the company to decide.