RPAS Pilots Awarded Wings

[CoffmanStarter]

Congratulations to all concerned ... :D

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/734543_10151526613659885_602590054_n.jpg

RPAS Pilots Awarded Wings

In the first graduation ceremony of its kind four RAF pilots have been awarded their specialised RPAS pilots badge at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada, USA. The graduation follows the announcement in December by the RAF of the creation of a specialised flying branch for those flying Remotely Piloted Aircraft.

Brevet Laurel Leaves Blue as opposed to Brown ...

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/EF749BA2_5056_A318_A8316B7F19D94F4C.jpg

More here ...

RAF RPAS Pilots (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/rpas-pilots-awarded-wings-01042013)

Source RAF Tw@tter

[lj101]

No nibble's yet.......

Gone mid day too.

[charliegolf]

Real drone pilots only ever wear flying suits.

CG

Edit: aren't oak leaves green?

[Just This Once...]

No FP / SP / RRI / RRP / SP (for a bit) then RRP is no joke, even before midday; but I am sure the sensor op will buy them the first round.

[P6 Driver]

Shouldn't their faces be covered in masking tape for "security" and the top buttons unfastened?

[Ivan Rogov]

To celebrate this fantastic achievement Breitling have brought out the
'RPAS chronograph'.

breitling watch 141 |breitling141| : (http://www.watchesjewelry1.com/breitling-watch-141-p-2498.html)

A salesman stated;
"It is not quite as good as our other aviator other watches but you can't tell unless you get to see it close up. It is priced to appeal to those without the disposable income of our regular customers, this was achieved by not having to test it for use in the air. A minute hand is optional extra as RPAS experts said the missions are that long they only require an hour hand; this also leads to a reduction in price. It is not water proof and may fade in sunlight so must not be used outside."

Congrats to the first of the new breed of aircrew (?) :ok:


1153Z

[CoffmanStarter]

OK ... So someone had to mentioned Flying Suits ... It's going to be a bit ticky differentiating with the old name badge in "tone down" mode ?

http://www.terrane.co.uk/prodimg/NBBT6459_1_Zoom.jpg

http://www.terrane.co.uk/prodimg/NBBT6871_1_Zoom.jpg

[BEagle]

Hmmmm.....

Got my drone wings back in 1966:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/IMG_0295_zps0d72b50a.jpg

Mind you it werr' tough back then. No sitting in air-conditioned tin boxes in Nevada stuffing our faces with doughnuts - without downlinks, we had to rely on optical flight path assessment and 4-ch rudder and elevator guidance using interference prone 27.120 MHz AM and unreliable single cylinder diesel engines:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Robot1967.jpg

Drone operators of today....they don't know they're born!

[smujsmith]

Wicked Beags :ok::D

[brakedwell]

As a matter of interest, do they qualify for a medal if their drone flies over Afghanistan :E

[CoffmanStarter]

BEagle ... 4 Channels ... Luxury !

I had to cope with Single Channel ... Rudder only :eek:

On one of these ...

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAxNFgxMDY2/$T2eC16JHJHoE9n3Kd7NsBQ4(6b)o-w~~60_35.JPG

Best ...

Coff.

[Rosevidney1]

Radio controlled all those years ago? Capitalists! :rolleyes:

[Fareastdriver]

Years ago there was a model aircraft flying club at Nutts Corner, near Adlergrove. We had a comprehensive radio set in the Puma which could push out absolute mayhem on 27 megs. With this we used to give unusual attitude practice.
We would observe somebody flying his life savings around and we would hit the transmit button. The victims pride and joy would then lock up and then plunge earthwards. When we thought that the owner really had his knees crossed at about a hundred feet to go we would give it back to him.

[Lima Juliet]

Oh, BEagle

Can you not see that your beloved "drones" have so much more utility in today's world?

http://www.afblues.com/wordpress/comics-archive/2011-06-25.jpg

LJ :ok:

[Hueymeister]

So were our blue laurel'd heros originally pilots?

[500N]

That begs the question.

If you already have RAF Wings and then transfer over to
flying "drones", would you change the type of wings
you wear - and would you want to ?

[CoffmanStarter]

Huey ...

From Flightglobal...

The UK Royal Air Force has completed a trial programme intended to assess the ability of non-pilots to fly unmanned air vehicles.

Dubbed Daedalus, the process "has successfully demonstrated that selection and training can generate remote pilots who, despite undergoing a different sort of training, are as highly trained and equally skilled as traditional pilots in that field", the RAF says.

The effort was intended to study the possibility of using candidates with no previous flying experience as a means of addressing any future shortfall in the availability of pilots for the UK's remotely piloted air systems (RPAS).

"The aim of the trial is to build a sustainable core of RPAS pilots, from non-airborne specialisations, which would increase the pool of pilots to fly these state-of-the-art aircraft," the air force says. "The results of the project will determine the qualities required for future RPAS pilots."

The RAF had originally hoped that the graduates of its programme would be able to operate its General Atomics MQ-9 Reapers, a type now in use over Afghanistan. However, the US Air Force, which supported the final phases of their training at Creech AFB, Nevada, has restricted their crew approvals to working only with its smaller MQ-1 Predator.

"Now that the trial has come to a close, the four of us are looking forward to being able to contribute directly to current operations," says one of the group. Identified as Flt Lt Dale, his previous position was as a provost officer with the RAF Police.

"Trial Daedalus clearly owes its success to the tremendous flexibility and sheer determination of all who have been involved," says course co-ordinator Sqn Ldr Tony Sumner. "Their journey has been unique and has required no small amount of hard work."

So why doesn't the Sensor Op get a brevet to recognise their speciality ... they after all are key members of an Operational Crew :confused:

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

OK ... Time for a gentle bit of leg pulling/banter :E

So which one of the four in my OP pic looks to be the Ex Provost chap ?

You can't vote for AM Garwood as he looks remarkably like Inspector Grim from the "Thin Blue Line" anyway ...

http://www.sitcom.co.uk/thin_blue_line/graphics/char_grimm2.jpg

My money is on the guy 2nd left :8

[Courtney Mil]

Nah, second from right, Coff.

And another thing, didn't Garfield already have wings?

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney ... look closely old chap he's wearing Brown Laurels :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Blimey, is that bloke really a 3 star?

Talk about policemen getting younger :(

[brakedwell]

Blimey, is that bloke really a 3 star?

Talk about policemen getting younger

He must have joined a long time after I left :}

[Courtney Mil]

1979 he joined.

[Gnd]

Just working on the RA version now I believe?

[NutLoose]

The RAF had originally hoped that the graduates of its programme would be able to operate its General Atomics MQ-9 Reapers, a type now in use over Afghanistan. However, the US Air Force, which supported the final phases of their training at Creech AFB, Nevada, has restricted their crew approvals to working only with its smaller MQ-1 Predator.

Is that a roundabout way of saying the Yanks don't rate them either as pilots?
I can see them getting a lot of stick over their wings, finally a set of wings specifically for flying a desk, what do they do when posted UK wise? Revert to their old jobs?

[Four Types]

If one of them is an ex-Provost Officer....does that mean his drone will be fitted with an Arrestor Hook??

[CoffmanStarter]

FT ... Maybe ... But you can bet he'll be up on his Air Law :}

[charliegolf]

500N:

That begs the question.

If you already have RAF Wings and then transfer over to
flying "drones", would you change the type of wings
you wear - and would you want to ?

A Puma pilot I flew with, who spanned 2 monarchs (!) during his 2 stints of service, flew with a set of wings with a 'King George VI' crown on it. He said he was allowed to choose, and this is kinda supported by WSOps beong able to do the same. I think.:ok:

CG

Edit: I recall that when he got his wings, they were still using up the old stock (really), so not quite old enough for GVI Rex, but the rest holds good. I still think!

[N2erk]

Do these fine fellows get 'Flying Pay' ?? :confused:

[Just This Once...]

No 'FP' for these guys, which may be a bit of an own goal.

[Tankertrashnav]

A Puma pilot I flew with, who spanned 2 monarchs (!) during his 2 stints of service, flew with a set of wings with a 'King George VI' crown on it. He said he was allowed to choose,


There was an instructor at Mount Batten in the early 70's (Simon something?) who had been a nav, then had become a pilot. His trick in those pre woolly-pulley days was to wear a No 2 with nav brevet on the first day then switch to one with pilot's wings the next, and see if anybody noticed.

[CoffmanStarter]

Does anyone have a copy of the slightly irreverent drawing which displayed a number of proposed "specialist" brevets that was circulated in the mid 70's around the time of the debate over Air Crew wearing brevets on the new woolly-pulley's. I think it may have been in the Flight Safety Review ... but not sure :confused:

Some cracking spoofs ... especially the Half Wing Spanner (for Engineers) and the inevitable Half Wing Banana (for guess who) ... would be good to get that posted on here :E

[charliegolf]

CF:

I also remember from AAITC days, a drawing of a single 'broken' wing; seemingly suitable for those who'd 'VSd' (Voluntarily Suspended.)

CG

[5 Forward 6 Back]

So why doesn't the Sensor Op get a brevet to recognise their speciality ... they after all are key members of an Operational Crew

Coff.

Coff,

The sensor operators are all existing WSOs, WSOps, or navigators. Most of the pilots are all existing pilots from manned platforms (I think the Reaper Force has literally every platform represented somewhere!). This trial was to see if you could get an RPAS-only pilot trained to the extent that they could operate a Reaper as well as someone from a Tornado/Chinook/Hercules background, but without the expense of a full scheme of manned flying training.

After all, even the ex-Typhoon and Tornado guys flying Reaper now don't need to exercise their undoubted ability in low flying or close formation; so if you could train someone from scratch who'd be Reaper-only, why would you teach them this?

It's not a new branch nor some sort of Reaper proficiency badge; it's a new specialisation within the existing Flying branch. So you can now join as Fg(P), Fg(WSO), Fg(WSOp) and Fg(RPASP). Fg(P) guys will still be able to do a tour on Reaper and return to something manned or their previous platforms; many have. There's no conversation about fully-trained Fg(P) people handing in their bronze-laureled wings in return for blue ones or anything like that.

I hear the first ex-DAEDALUS guys to fly on UK Reapers are doing extremely well; bear in mind that following the trial, they did a considerable amount of time on other RPAS before moving to Reaper, and in some ways are significantly more experienced than their ex-manned colleagues on the UK Reaper Force!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Is that a roundabout way of saying the Yanks don't rate them either as pilots?
I can see them getting a lot of stick over their wings, finally a set of wings specifically for flying a desk, what do they do when posted UK wise? Revert to their old jobs?


Nutloose,

No; the USAF, until last year, only took "RPAS only" pilots to the Predator. All USAF Reaper guys were either Pred crossovers or ex-manned pilots. Far from not rating them, the USAF pioneered this system, and they all did extremely well on their US Squadrons!

When the RAF did DAEDALUS I believe the hope was to post them to USAF Reaper units to gather experience prior to joining the UK Reaper Force, but as the USAF only takes RPAS only guys to Pred, the DAEDALUS guys started with tours on Predator units.

Now, the USAF does have some straight-through pilots going directly to Reaper, and the ex-DAEDALUS guys have finished their Pred tours and are coming to the UK Reaper.

There's no reverting to previous branches; we've got an RPAS unit in the UK now and the requirement for RPA experts is only going to increase.

[CoffmanStarter]

5F6B ... Thanks for the gen ... Much appreciated old chap :D

[Door Slider]

Do these fine fellows get 'Flying Pay' ??

Serving aircrew that cross over to this specialisation retain their Flying Pay.

Personnel recruited directly from civvy in this specialisation will not receive Flying Pay

[5 Forward 6 Back]

The FP element needs more explanation; I know some one-winged chums who've expressed an interest in adding some blue-wreathed wings, but I didn't think the DIN was very clear as to whether or not they'd retain their FP permanently, or if they'd still climb increments etc.

I understand the justification for not paying it to new Fg(RPASP) guys; if it's a retention payment to stop me from running to the nearest loco carrier with a shiny ATPL, there's no current equivalent for RPAS pilots.

[Just This Once...]

Not many AEOps running to the loco carriers either but as with the RPAS pilots the world is opening up for contractor RPAS and if we are not careful we will not retain these guys.

Not all pilots run to the airlines and mixing crews together where some attract additional pay and others don't will have a corrosive effect. At the very least they could have offered crew pay.

[Jacko3]

Thoroughly disappointing to see this. The badge has been devalued.. simple as that. For many decades now it has been worn only by those highly selected and skilled individuals who strap themselves into and fly military aircraft. Even peacetime training in the UK is high risk. These RPAS operators may be highly skilled and trained and are no doubt impressive individuals, but they are not strapping themselves into aircraft and they are not flying. There should be a new unique RPAS badge which can form its own reputation, not the award of the pilot badge - subtly modified as it is.

[NutLoose]

5F6B thanks for that.

Jacko totally agree with you, you would of think they would have changed the format to reflect that as with Para and Glider wings, not only has it devalued ours, I had been looking at them and thinking where have I seen that idea before with the Blue Laurel leaf..
It would appear all RAAF Pilots are also RPAS pilots.


http://www.thehistorybunker.co.uk/acatalog/RAAF.jpg

http://militaria-sales.com.au/images/RAAF-PILOT.JPG

[5 Forward 6 Back]

It is a different badge; it might be subtly different, but it's still different!

After all, they may not have done the same degree of training that us bronze/brown-laureled chaps have, and they may not have been exposed to the same risk, but they're still doing an incredible job.

These guys are captains of RAF aircraft in complex, tactical airspace. They're as responsible for flight safety and conduct as the captain of a manned aircraft; and while they might not die in a mid-air, they'd still be responsible for other deaths, which isn't to be taken lightly. We don't devalue a Typhoon mate because he only risks himself and we don't devalue Tornado mates because they only carry one crewmate!

Plus, these guys are captains of armed aircraft doing the good job of killing bad guys, in difficult, challenging tactical circumstances, every single day. The vast majority of us know the responsibility granted to pilots with the final say in releasing weapons, and these guys are no different. The fundamental skills and attitudes that make us RAF pilots can easily be present in RPAS pilots too.

Finally, having heard what I have of the DAEDALUS guys' capacity, airmanship, and tactical ability, I'm pretty sure that if situations had been different, they'd all have made fine manned pilots. It is disappointing to see relatively junior pilots clutching their 12 Tornado hours, bleating on about their wings being devalued, when the RPAS chaps have 1000+hrs of operational time on Predators. It's really quite pathetic.

Of course, if anyone who's actually flown a Reaper, or even watched one being flown, wants to comment on the relative experience and ability levels of manned vs RPAS pilots and why, as captains of RAF aircraft, they shouldn't be entitled to wear wings of some variety, then I'd be interested to hear their thoughts! But it seems that here and on the RAF FB pages there are a lot of people getting a bit upset about something they don't really have much knowledge of.

[NutLoose]

I think as a none pilot I'll back out of that one, I would say though it does not mean all pilots devaluing it are 12 hour Tornado pilots, a lot will have a lot more than that, and although a RPAS pilot may have 1000 hrs pus, it is still in total safety miles from the chance of being injured, where the Tornado pilot will have been in harms way and have earned them.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

True; but out of the dozens and dozens of qualities that someone has to demonstrate in order to justifiably wear a set of wings, I think "exposure to risk" is very far down the list. Nothing to say these guys wouldn't willingly expose themselves to risk if it was required, and the fact that the MCE job at Creech or Waddington doesn't require it doesn't change things.

Captaincy, airmanship, responsibility, including the responsibility to take or save lives... they still have plenty to be proud of even if they're not in a warzone except when doing the LRE.

This reminds me of fellow pilots in the fast jet world complaining when the METS syllabus was cut down. Maybe pilots who've flown 40hrs EFT, 10hrs MELIN, and a handful of King Air hours should keep the bronze laurels, helicopter guys should get silver ones, and fast jet guys gold (platinum if you got them after AFT rather than BFJT?)? Then maybe people'd be happy to let RPAS guys keep blue.

Genuinely, I think that anyone who was exposed to them as operators would be impressed. I wonder if any of the complainees were on one of the recent FLAGs and bothered to take a spare few hours one day to visit Creech and see what they actually do?

[NutLoose]

I don't believe I'm still replying, but to me I wouldn't say they are pilots, plain and simple, true they are flying something remotely, but they are not onboard the aircraft and to be a qualified pilot you have to attain that standard, there is more to flying an aircraft with situation awareness and the feel of the aircraft in flight...... To give wings to a desk bound operator of a piece of equipment just rankles, do you give wings to every radio controlled model pilot, to an army operator of a simple airborne surveillance camera, such as are coming out for the likes of the IPhone ? Because that's were it is going, does that make CCTV operators pilots? Because it basically is the same, you are moving something in space from a remote station, what about remote gunners? To me a pilot is someone at the controls of a craft they are physically sitting in and have control over... Even killing people does not and should not come into the equation, because a pilot could serve his entire career without firing a weapon in anger, helicopters or transports etc come to mind.
That's how I see it, it is eroding the essence of what a pilot should be, even the RAF are facing the same quandary, otherwise the laurels would all be the same, at this rate we will end up with laurels all basically the same but multi coloured like Smarties... Odd thing I can see the logic, the German Army in WW2 had coloured bands around their badges to delineate their branch of service.

[lj101]

By definition they are indeed pilots but I agree with the sentiment of your post. Still, it is what it is and the system has decided this is the way ahead based on cost.
To that end I don't see why all ranks couldn't do the course as it would be even cheaper still? Maybe they are? Or is a junior non commissioned rank wearing 'pilot' wings a step too far.

[Nimbus20]

not a football post, but postulating that the Royal Artillery RPAS operators stand an interesting chance of initiating an exchange programme (because we all know that Joint = Army approved) and voila! NCO and enlisted "pilots" - without the Airships having to worry about "devaluing the officer corps". Ooh, what rough diamonds we have to educate....

due credit to Gnd at #24.

[Wensleydale]

A couple of thoughts....

Are the University Air Squadron "Budgie" wings still awarded? If not, then perhaps a badge based upon this design would have been more appropriate? It is only a couple of letters changed from UAS to RPAS after all?

However, with the "Anti-Drone" stance being taken by a few misguided individuals (there is a small "peace" brigade campaigning against drones at Waddington) is it a good idea to positively identify those who fly them, making them a more conspicuous target in the local community? Perhaps the new wings design is an attempt at subtlety which, of course, has been wasted upon pilots!

[Roland Pulfrew]

I'm with the antis on this one. I have no problem with RPAS operators wearing a brevet of some sort, but these ones are just too close to the pilots flying badge. These guys are good operators, I've witnessed what they do on ops, they may have hundreds, even thousands of hours on type, but to call them pilots is to stretch a definition. These RPAS wings do, IMO, devalue the real flying badge and I too think that the design was a mistake.

[L J R]

Good work chaps, congratulations on passing a challenging course, and understanding the weapon release responsibility necessary with (a particular) RPAS captaincy. :ok: I will leave the brevet point to those who want to expend their energy on it. :sad:

[teeteringhead]

Thoroughly disappointing to see this. The badge has been devalued.. simple as that I have to agree, it's an opportunity missed and - quelle surprise! - has not been thought through by the powers that be.

When the single WSO/WSOp badge was introduced, it came very very close to having a "crownless" version for NCA - 'til it was pointed out that many pilots were not commissioned and had the same badge. :O

Moreover (good MoD word), it denies the RPAS "drivers" a chance to build their own history and traditions. And finally, Coff has illustrated the tone down and desert "monochrome" wings, but it could be argued that these are unofficial.

But what about Wings on No 5s? They too are monochrome - albeit gold - and are official ..........

Any comments senior people???

An MoD Spokesman said: "Oh b%gger, we didn't think of that". ........... no, that would mean being honest!

[Jacko3]

Congratulations to them for becoming qualified RPAS operators. They are certainly highly trained and skilled and have a seriously high-responsibility job. They are to be commended for their achievements in this field.

They are not RAF pilots though and should not wear the RAF pilots badge.

That badge is reserved for pilots who have been through the RAF flying training system. It is worn by those who strap themselves into military aircraft and then fly it.

This is a serious oversight by the seniors of the RAF.

[291paspine]

5 Forward 6 Back - I think your missing the point, whether or not somebody has 12 hours in a tornado, or 4,000 hours in a harrier people have a right to feel aggrieved about the "devaluing" of the RAF flying brevet.

Nobody is doubting these individuals skill set, they are as trained for their role as any other specialisation I'd imagine. I think the issue here is that people feel that by awarding the brevet to somebody who "flies" predators, shows a worrying break from the tradition and a disregard for the training required to earn a set of RAF wings.

[MOSTAFA]

Be interesting to see if Army RPAS operators wear a brevet but I'll be surprised if its the Army Flying Badge.

[Maxibon]

Seeing as I had a PPL, 45 hrs on Bulldogs and 120 hrs on JPs before being sent to the back seat, can I have another flying badge given the fact that I flew a proper aeroplane?!!!!

[rathebelucky]

5F6B

Absolutely agree with you. I have not worked with these individuals but know who they are and the environment in which they operate. It is challenging and the effect they bring is the same, or in the current theatre, greater than the traditional manned assets bring to the party. Is this not what being a pilot is actually about, delivery of effect? Exposure to risk is not a requirement for effect and indeed the exact opposite is desired, if only cost were no factor we could bring home a lot less casualties from all the services. I sincerely hope that most of the disgruntled noises is in fact just standard playground banter.

MQ1/MQ9 are not battlefield assets stooging around at treetop height, they are substantial aircraft probably operating in the range at which you would expect aircraft with their propulsion systems to operate i.e. mixing it up with all the other assets, possibly at the top of the stack as befits their attributes. There is no small amount of SA required to ensure that the aircraft gets up, does it's stuff, avoiding stuff below when delivering it's good news and then getting it back again. All skills that all the traditional pilots have and I've seen some of them pork it too, I might even have biffed things a couple of times myself, but will of course deny everything.

I certainly wouldn't be in the crewroom saying to their faces that they were pilots but I wouldn't say particularly good things about H*****r mates (but that's another story) within earshot, but the fact remains they were apparently quite good at what they did. Even this smarts a little and only being offered for public consumption behind the shield of anonymity.

Some on here don't like the look of the future, and who would that has sat in modern aircraft hooting and roaring around the sky? The simple plain fact is that RPAS technology is increasing in military use, is beginning to gain a substantial foothold in civilian applications and that is likely to expand, the ultimate conclusion of which is the removal of operators from the cockpit entirely at some stage in the future. (Probably led by Ryanair if they can reduce costs)

These guys are pilots, they deliver ordinance from airborne vehicles which are directly controlled by their actions. They may not have proved themselves through EFT/BFT/AFT but they have achieved everything they were asked through their training pipeline, and more operationally. I suspect that they will be a much needed and valuable addition to 39 and XIII Sqns. Christ knows that they shed their traditional pilots quickly enough. Are we really going to all twisted up over the shape and colour of the brevet. RPAs fly, they pilot them, its simply the start of a new brand of flying. Good luck to them. (They're still just wannabes - couldn't resist a dig.)

[Wensleydale]

I wonder where the idea for a blue wreath came from?

http://1557-friars.sqn.ac/images/activities/flyscholwings.jpg

:O

[Hueymeister]

So are these guys already pilots?

[Union Jack]

And another thing, didn't Garfield already have wings? - Courtney Mil

Courtney ... look closely old chap he's wearing Brown Laurels - Coffman Starter

Surely not as in this thread http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/138310-brown-wings.html .....:eek:

Jack

[NutLoose]

No Huey, not in the sense of the way you are asking, they are not qualified Aircraft pilots as in sit in it and fly it, they are remote pilots, as sit at a desk and fly it, the way it will all eventually go no doubt.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Nutloose,

Not really answering Hueymeister's question; and with that and some other comments in this thread, I think you might be confusing Reaper with some of the smaller-scale tactical UAVs that are operated from a desk or a laptop in a case. They sit in what to all intents and purposes is a cockpit, with a stick, rudder pedals, a throttle quadrant etc, and can fly the aircraft entirely manually if they like.

For Hueymeister, no; the current pilots flying Reaper retain their normal wings and the opportunity to return to manned flying. These guys were in the Ops Spt branch and were put through a trial to test a bespoke training system for RPA-only pilots. Now that it exists and has been proven, people will be able to walk in to a careers office from the street and join as a pure RPA pilot.

It's not a new branch, it's a sub-specialisation of the Flying branch that sits alongside pilot, WSO and WSOp.

[Hueymeister]

Gorrit! I understand now!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

This sort of stuff should probably have been in the IBN/press release, rather than relying on someone on PPRuNe to explain, when you think about it ;)

[Roger the cabin boy]

These fellows do go through aircrew-esque selection at OASC I presume - do they do any other of the other trg - MOORTREK, SERE, etc? Probably not...

Similarly, what about Fighter Controllers and Airborne Techs wearing aircrew brevets (and never taking them off ever again, even when tourex'd)? Surely there is the precedent for non-aircrew to wear a flying badge?

As the minority here have said - good luck to 'em! Wish I was RPAS: big bucks in civvy street soon one imagines.

[P6 Driver]

If you disregard those who will have the knowledge to tell the difference between UAV/RPAV/very big and deadly model* pilots and those who actually leave the ground, to most people these pilots with their freshly awarded badges are now officially part of the Two-winged Master Race!


* Delete as required

[woptb]

I believe (thankfully) the RAF has put in a large order for the new wings.
Can't wait to see how the new breed of untermench master race will represent with 'just their hands', how they conducted an intercept.
If only they'd had RPAS technology in Beagles day,many people would have been spared much heartache!

[MAD Boom]

Despite the pride I felt the day my (second) flying badge was awarded to me, and the smiles on my parents faces, at the end of the day it's just a badge.

I know what I can do/have done/will do because of the job I have, and I do not feel any less of a pilot because a guy wearing the same badge is doing what some on here are suggesting is a less demanding job.

If what is written here is to become gospel, should we be distinguishing between the wings awarded to the pilots of different aircraft types within the RAF? Should we have different wings for FJ,RW and ME pilots to distinguish between their capabilities or how hard they are working? (Sarcasm inbound I am sure)

If you are not enough of a person without a flying badge, you'll never be anything with it. Let it go.

P.S. As soon as the chicks in the bar realise they are talking to an RPAS pilot, they'll be off immediately in search of a rotary god anyway.

[500N]

"P.S. As soon as the chicks in the bar realise they are talking to an RPAS pilot, they'll be off immediately in search of a rotary god anyway."

Very good.

:D:D:D:D:D

[NutLoose]

Will it not further erode pilot numbers?
As you would have a cache of trained pilots on a ground tour as such, replace those with a cheaper to train singular skilled alternative and you lose the buffer you have in the system?

[Jacko3]

A few people here missing the point i think... I suspect there is a clear divide in opinion between those who have been through a flying training system and those who have not. Get all past and present RAF pilots/aircrew in one hangar and see what the vote would be on whether people that don't even leave the ground get to wear wings pr any other established flying brevet.

Again, RPAS operators have been through a difficult training system and have a serious and important job. They deserve credit and SHOULD wear a badge that is theirs and displays membership of their own unique club. But why not a new and hard earned RPAS badge. 'Amending' the pilots brevet in my opinion is disrespecting its history.

A few people on here making comments about the job being similar clearly think being a pilot involves just pushing buttons and letting weapons go....

Out of interest, how many RPAS operators do we have? Wasn't there a trial 4-5 years ago to put non-aircrew through the system and see how they did? How long is the RPAS training system?

[Maxibon]

Gosh, this has all got terribly repetitive. Ignoring my earlier flippant comment, I never achieved my two wings as to be honest, I was a rather crap pilot. I got my nav brevet but despite that, I was stilled ticked-off that I never made it in the front. That was my personal feeling about myself and not in any way judgement of my fellow navs.

These guys have worked hard for their wings but they know they're not fully fledged members of the two-winged master race; their wings have a a blue laurel. So what if non-flyers mistake them as such - what difference does it make to any of you who decry their achievements? We're all on the same side; we all contribute in our own ways; forget the vitriol and just be bloody happy for once!

It's not as if the RAF is even a shadow of its heyday of the 80s and before after all!

[Duplo]

perhaps the standard nav type brevet might have been more appropriate? After all, there are plenty of nav captains and/or directors of warfare about who have also led complex air ops on other aircraft (nimrod/GR4/AWACS for example) and let's face it the RPAS 'pilots' are just cutting out the middle man.. which many navs have either done or tried for years..! Oh and the Queen has just got a BAFTA for Skyfall....

[Duplo]

sorry olympics...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Jacko,

A few people on here making comments about the job being similar clearly think being a pilot involves just pushing buttons and letting weapons go....

... have you, or any of the other posters denigrating the achievements of the Daedalus trial guys done both jobs? How can you qualify the assertion that they're not similar?

[Lima Juliet]

Duplo

perhaps the standard nav type brevet might have been more appropriate? After all, there are plenty of nav captains and/or directors of warfare about who have also led complex air ops on other aircraft (nimrod/GR4/AWACS for example) and let's face it the RPAS 'pilots' are just cutting out the middle man..

Some of the Airships looked at that option. The problem is, these guys are de facto pilots under the requirements of ICAO to fly in International Airspace under effectively IFR - so they needed to be badged as pilots or it would look at bit odd.

Make sense?

LJ :ok:

[Ivan Rogov]

Thanks LJ that is the first good reason given on this thread.

Much of the thread has been quite worrying, either because it suggested there was no real reason or that the RAF was making it up (and doing quite poorly). E.g: They need to be pilots for captaincy and dropping weapons or because they need SA, what rubbish!

[lj101]

1.3 Some of the following are terms used by the UK Military as defined in the Military Aviation Authority (MAA) Regulatory Publications (MRP). These terms (identified by an asterisk *) are not necessarily applicable to UAS that are subject to civil regulations.
NOTE: The terms ‘pilot’ and 'Remote Pilot' are being increasingly used worldwide (including ICAO) to describe the person who directly controls an unmanned aircraft and that trend is reflected in this document. It should be noted, however, that within the United Kingdom there are many legal requirements in the Air Navigation Order 2009 applicable to ‘pilots’. These references, however, apply only to pilots in the traditional sense – i.e. persons on board and flying the aircraft. There are at present no legal requirements setting out the qualifications needed to control an unmanned aircraft; this work is still to be completed.

Source. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP722.pdf

[Roland Pulfrew]

LJ

Makes sense? Sort of, but not entirely. There are plenty of pilot type badges out there that the RAF did not need to denigrate the current real* pilot flying badge in such a way. :=

* - real as in pilots in the traditional sense – i.e. persons on board and flying the aircraft.

[CoffmanStarter]

A topic/decision that will guarantee to polarise views and opinion for a little while to come I feel.

Looking at it pragmatically the Service has moved on and evolved considerably over the last 90 years ... and will continue to do so going forward. We now have the technology to deliver surveillance and ordinance remotely ... and as LJ rightly points out the crews flying these missions do so under IFR conditions ... the only real difference is the relative height of their backsides.

I'm sure it was no coincidence that the announcement was timed with the 90th Birthday of the RAF. Let's embrace the change ... GOK how much (lots) ribbing these guys are going to get in the Mess at some point :}

On a lighter note ... perhaps a rich recruiting source here :E

Virtual Red Arrows (http://www.virtualredarrows.com)

Ironic they too are recruiting ... if any Top Brass read this ... NO Sir's we don't want an RPAS Formation Team :rolleyes:

Coff.

[MAD Boom]

Roland

There are plenty of pilot type badges out there that the RAF did not need to denigrate the current real* pilot flying badge in such a way.

I am assuming that you are using the common meaning of 'denigrate' (and yes, I did have to look it up!) which is to insult or defame.

Does the award of RPAS wings to some very hard-working and capable colleagues, or as I should say fellow aviators, really insult the holders of the traditional pilot flying badge?

I assume by your reaction that you are a 'real' pilot?

[Pure Pursuit]

To the holders of a manned pilot badge who have a grievance about the RPAS badge....

Get over yourselves! The RPAS badge is clearly different and as somebody who knows one of the holders very well, I can assure you that the four of them are not trying to replicate what a Typhoon mate does.

They are very good at what they do, operate in extremely complicated and dynamic airspace whilst doing a bloody difficult job. They deserve recognition and to be frank, are offering as much, if not more, to the current conflict than most others.

Stop bitching about the badge and start supporting what they do.

[Lockstock]

I don't believe that these wings 'denigrate' the current real flying badge because they are not the same and in my opinion should not be considered so.

I don't know exactly what the RPAS course consists of, but my 'real' wings took 18 months to earn. I undertook an intense course of groundschool, GH, IF, low level, formation flying and also gained a massive rollocking (and a huge reality check) when I nearly flew myself into the side of a hill during the course. At the end of it, my colleagues and I believed that we had truly earned the RAF flying badge.

Good luck to these guys, I'm sure they are hard-working and will add to the team effort but would I let my wife and kids sit in the back of an aircraft that these 'pilots' are in charge of? No thanks.

[Lima Juliet]

Lockstock

It's been a while, but if I recall correctly the RPAS course was about 40hrs in Grob (including solo), about 90 hrs in the Tucano Sim and a live flight (and a mini IRT), thence to USA for their UAS Fundamentals Course (about another 60 hrs of sim RPAS flying) then a Predator or Reaper Formal Trg Unit (read OCU in UK terms) for a bunch of live flying and sim flying. Again, if I recall correctly they had slightly more hands-on time than a Multi-Eng RAF student pilot and more than a CPL frozen ATPL.

As I said before, de facto pilots...Piloting an aircraft through the sky under IFR with a fly-by-wire wireless cable about 8000nm long!!!

LJ:ok:

[Two's in]

Some of these comments remind me of my Chipmunk instructor saying;

"I could teach a monkey to land this thing in a 3 point attitude succesfully given the time, but you've only got 5 hours or your gone - now buck up!".

My point being that learning to fly is a great achievement, but don't get so full of yourself that you forget the main constraint the military applied to you learning that skill was time and money. Good luck to all of these individuals with this new branch, until I read this thread I had no idea quite so many RAF pilots lived near Tolpuddle.

[Jacko3]

Pure Pursuit - I think we have all agreed these guys have been through a tough course and have a tough job. They have an important role in modern conflict and they ARE fully supported by all of us. Congratulations to them for 'making the grade' and I have no doubt whatsoever that they are top notch guys.

The point is however, to award these individuals the same badge (and I don't accept a different coloured laurel makes a difference) changes what the badge represents.

The badge has been established for many years now and in simple terms some of the things it does represent is an ability to preform IN THE AIR difficult and complex tasks whilst potentially being shot at, potentially being at low level, in formation, in bad weather, under high G-loading, under time pressure, under pressure to get to that task, under pressure to make captaincy decisions that if wrong could get you and your crew killed.. I think people around the air force in ground branches who enjoy taking the mickey out of aircrew and moaning about their flying pay probably don't have the faintest idea about the stresses of the airborne environment.

The legal point is interesting. I suspect this is the main reason..

We should remember it is soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan who are facing danger everyday and deserve most of our spare attention - worth remembering while we discuss a badge!!

[Cows getting bigger]

Get over it.

Some time back (late 90s) I sufferd one of those intriguing courses that AWC held. It was called ABSC and, without doubt, was one of the best aviation related, European drinking tours I ever went on.

Cutting to the chase, we observed a number of agencies working hard at UCAVs etc and there was some mightily impressive stuff in the pipeline. If we are still spending big-bucks on new combat aircraft in 20-30 years, I predict we will not be wasting money and payload space for a seat and some rather high tech life support.

Whether we like it or not, the role of the steely eyed fighter pilot is diminishing.

[Lima Juliet]

Jacko 3

You have just blown a large hole in your size 10 boot. Flying pay is awarded as retention pay to put our pay on a par with civvy-flyers wages and not 'danger money'. Also, your long list of romanticised items of "being shot at", "under high G loading", "being at low level" and "in formation" does not apply to an awful lot of pilots in the RAF.

Plus, if you don't think taking shots inside 'Danger Close' parameters with a Hellfire or dropping a GBU-12 doesn't warrant stress, then you've probably never been anywhere near any platform doing it - manned or remotely-manned. Listening to mates on the ground screaming for CAS and having to make life or death decisions brings plenty of stress; get it wrong and you could still go to jail - manned or remotely-manned.

The introduction of this brevet is long overdue and BZ to those chaps that have earned it...:D

LJ

[Lockstock]

LJ

Thanks for the info - I guess things have changed since I got my wings after nearly 300 hours of 'live' flying. No simulators with enough fidelity then, so it all had do be done in the air - not a bad thing as I learned a lot of airmanship in those early days which I don't believe can be gained in the sim. That's another argument though...

Whatever, good luck to these guys, they have earned what they've got and without doubt have a difficult and demanding job.

:ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Lockstock

Yes, hands-on time is a lot less these days for pilots - see http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/rafcms/mediafiles/9c2ca119_1143_ec82_2e38786ece6be6fa.ppt

LJ:ok:

[Ivan Rogov]

LJ, ref. weaponeering. Don't the drone drivers just pickle the weapons? I thought the rest was done by the sensor operators :confused:
BTW there are many other jobs in the mil that get as stressed (more often) and have as serious (if not more) consequences, I wouldn't get too excited about trying to sell that aspect as not many will buy it :=

All this excitement over badges :ugh: They went on a course and passed it like individuals in many different jobs, well done to them for their achievements.

Was this a genuine course or did the RAF have an agenda for the RPAS pilot program? Were the candidates representative of the baseline abilities expected to be put through in the future, or were the dice loaded? Were they more capable, experienced, skilled, etc. and less likely to fail? Did the course have a pass fail criteria or were they given training until they passed?

[Lima Juliet]

IR

ref. weaponeering. Don't the drone drivers just pickle the weapons? I thought the rest was done by the sensor operators

A bit more than that. Firstly, as Captain of the aircraft the pilot is responsible for any weapon fired. Secondly, they have to position the aircraft to fire the weapon in parameters in accordance with either JTAC instructions or the SOPs. Then ensure that they don't knacker the sensor ops tracking through manoeuvre. That said, it's a 3 man aircraft (including the Mission Specialist) and they all work together to get the best out of it.

As for getting stressed, yup the Chief Clerk gets more stressed when the lorry load of paperclips is late for delivery - oh, and as for the SWO, those sideburns and neckshaves really put the pressue on them...:}
Of course, there are stressful jobs throughout the armed forces, operating RPAS is but one of many! :ok:

LJ

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

No award honours the man, the man honours the award.

If someone thinks an airborne-earned pair of wings is worth the same as video-game set, then they aren't worth talking to.

[sargs]

If someone thinks an airborne-earned pair of wings is worth the same as video-game set then they aren't worth talking to

Clearly I'm not worth talking to; I only have a single AE wing and therefore am only half the man you are. Still, I can take comfort from the fact that I am better than the blokes with the single RAF badge, because I've been in longer than them. Hang on though, clearly N badge holders are better than me because they're commissioned. Never mind, I know I'm better than the IA badge wearers because their course was not as long as mine (except for one I know who's actually better than me). Perhaps I'm better than an AT, because I'm aircrew? What's that you say, 25 years experience engineering beforehand? Then surely I'm better than an LM; after all, they were crap at morse? Apart from the winchmen with AFCs, and the SH door gunners and MERT crews, obviously. Still, none of this matters - having blue laurel leaves on your badge doesn't make you as competent as one who has brown leaves, clearly. Unless you last flew C-130, in which case you're not as good as a Tornado pilot (GR4, not F3).

Or could it be (sharp intake of breath), we are ALL worthy, in our own individual and collective way? Honour the man.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Clearly I'm not worth talking to; I only have a single AE wingQuite the opposite - you got your flying badge airborne same as me.

It's the personal risk I'm on about.

Yes, we are all worthy.
Yes, we are all essential. What use is a two-winged fighter pilot if we need to find a submarine?
But, I think it's a mistake to make the badges so similar.

[Arty Fufkin]

In my opinion flying, like sex, requires the participant to be present at the time. If you have a satellite uplink between you and your aircraft you are not a pilot. If you have a satellite uplink between you and your girlfriend you are not ....... her.
Ergo, it is no more possible to earn your wings fling a RPAS than it is to lose your virginity on the Internet.

I suspect that all UAV pilots will end up wearing thick glasses.

Rgds.

[Union Jack]

In my opinion flying, like sex, requires the participant to be present at the time. If you have a satellite uplink between you and your aircraft you are not piloting it. If you have a satellite uplink between you and your girlfriend you are not ....... her.

Arty - You might have to reword that when the first women receive their blue wings, and I also trust that you are not implying that the existing "blue wingers" are looking at the wrong screens ....... :)

Jack

[Al-bert]

Having kept out of this til now (too busy winding up the RN and others on Rotary threads) I do not consider the very clever operator of a remotely piloted vehicle to be a pilot. He's highly trained, presumably highly skilled and very necessary BUT when HIS 'kite' prangs he can take off his headset, say 'oh bother', and go home for tea and biccies. He isn't a pilot and it is wrong to wear a pretend pilot's brevet. I thought it was an April fools wind up when I first read the thread - but then so much of todays......:zzz:

[Ivan Rogov]

Don't worry folks I have an idea, if you can't stand them being called pilots refer to them as 'Drone Drivers'.

It won't affect how they do their job or how much they get paid and will be a very reasonable introduction to the wonderful world of 'aircrew' banter.

Personally I gave up caring about badges after the Cub Scouts, it is what you do that counts. We seem to cope in No2 dress in the summer :ok:

[Al-bert]

We seem to cope in No2 dress in the summer http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Summer! Where you been for the last 6 years?

Just a thought, I have a friend who 'drives' underwater RPV's. Is he a submariner? :hmm:

[Biggus]

No, he's a pilot - that what the P stands for!! :ok:

[Al-bert]

Biggus, my mistake, I think the correct terminology is ROV, you see, you can call it what you like but the person driving a computer image that cleverly connects to a large and lethal model aircraft isn't really a pilot is he/she; otherwise they'd have been awarded the real flying badge? :ok:

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Congratulations XIII Sqn! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-22320275)

[Roland Pulfrew]

Great letter in this week's RAF News on this issue, and not from aircrew either.

[dragartist]

So the comments about the RAF news worked then RP! - I thought everyone had canned their subscriptions.

I see this morning BBC News reporting these things are being controlled from Waddington. I suppose this keeps costs down. Tropical flying coveralls will not be required. The standard grobags should blend in ok at waddington. People will be going round squinting to see if they have blue or beige leaves on their wings. A bit like me wearing my name badge upside down just to see people twist their necks!

Sounds like we have a Greenham Common type peace camp being set up. That will not please the spotters.

[NutLoose]

Weird isn't it, kicking up a stink over unmanned aircraft dropping bombs on folks, but not complaining about manned ones dropping bombs on folks......

I can now see the reason why the new wings, one wouldn't want to get misidentified as one of these none flying type chappies leaving the gate at Waddo... :E

[Tankertrashnav]

Weird isn't it, kicking up a stink over unmanned aircraft dropping bombs on folks, but not complaining about manned ones dropping bombs on folks......


Not British, old chap, we want our heroes to risk their own skins as well as the enemy's. Bit like those unsporting chaps in the RFC who wanted to wear parachutes so they could jump out of their burning Sopwith Camels. LMF in my opinion :*


;)

[CoffmanStarter]

TTN ... Morton's Fork or Hobson's Choice old boy :uhoh:

[CoffmanStarter]

I bet Group Captain Gillespie is happy that this lot have appeared on his Manor ...

http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/67424/image_update_b7f9e6c11908fb41_1343212393_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2011/08/483734.jpg

Probably about time for the Fire Section to undertake their Hose Drills I think :E

Coff.

[500N]

"Probably about time for the Fire Section to undertake their Hose Drills I think http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif"

+100

Or a herd of escaped cows running rampant :O

[Lima Juliet]

killing by Remote Control is a Nazi trait simply brought up to date...

Oh dear:=

These whackos have obviously never hear of the Wickersham Land Torpedo then! It was designed by the Americans and used in 1917 in the trenches. It was a small remote controlled tank packed with explosives - it would be guided to a trench and then detonated outside of sight to kill the enemy and open the trench.

Bl00dy peace protesters make me angry at times; ill informed, no common sense and totally unrealistic. Give them a trip to Afghanistan to protest for peace at the next Taleban Shura - with a clause that SF won't stand up to rescue them. Problem solved me thinks...:E

LJ

[Wensleydale]

The camp was started by a nutty old lady who used to live at Greenham Common. Her tirades in the local paper are in the same vein as her banner - comparing the RPAS to a V1 and operated by Nazis. Her arguments are ill founded, ill informed and full of vitriol. (No surprise there).

[NutLoose]

Must have been snorting Afghanistan's major export, because last time I looked it certainly wasn't oil rich..

The list of remote control weapons platforms is endless...

Ahhhh Greenham Common, that explains it, she probably see's these as upmarket Cruise Missiles, I fondly remember the time they were all asleep inside their teepee's and some kind passing motorist pulled up and slung a large supply of fishing maggots into their abode :E

It's the legitimate Spotters and the man and a van trying to run a food establishment I feel sorry for, having their peaceful pleasure ruined by a bunch of barking mad loons...


..

[Courtney Mil]

God, I hope those protesters don't hang around too close to the nuclear weapons storage and testing facility there. They probably don't realise how dangerous the radiation levels get when they're loading the weapons with all that plutonium. Someone should tell them, surely?

[CoffmanStarter]

Wensleydale ...

The camp was started by a nutty old lady who used to live at Greenham Common

http://www.keighleynews.co.uk/resources/images/1049352/?type=display

I believe this is the person to which you refer ...

Read the latest rantings and ravings from the misguided here ...

RAF Waddington Direct Action Station (http://directactionstation.com/?cat=194)

Drone Wars Peace Camp RAF Waddington (http://dronewarsuk.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/peace-camp-for-new-uk-drone-base/)

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Coff.

[Courtney Mil]

Bloody hell, Coff. That's my Mum! I wondered where she was.

[CoffmanStarter]

Av a word then mate :ok:

[NutLoose]

I hope they don't ban the Station personnel from talking to them etc, they did that to the CND / ban the bomb lot at Lossie, and on the way back after a few Sherberts I noticed a load of the guys in there having a party... Of course with the strict orders in place one felt one had to simply join in :p

[Lima Juliet]

That's not a woman, that's a man baby!..

Austin Powers "that's a man baby" - YouTube

[Tankertrashnav]

Well I dunno, it gives me a sort of comfy feeling that this lot are there. Admittedly its going to cause a few headaches at Waddington, but nothing they can't deal with, I'm sure. We've had this sort of thing for the last 50 years or so, what with the CND marches, Greenham, the camp outside the Trident base at Faslane, and so on.

The fact that they are allowed to be there waving their admittedly looney banners is supposed to be what this country is all about, what the guys (of both sexes) inside the wire are defending.

L-J is absolutely right - they wouldnt be allowed to protest for 5 minutes in Afghanistan - and 100 other countries you might list, but I'm glad that we still live in a country where people can express their views, no matter how distasteful they are (and yes I do believe they are distasteful).

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, democracy! Peoples' rights. Leftie, flippin' anti-everything. Spell in the Army would do them all good!

[deltahotel]

A lot of the anti-drone thing in the UK is a linking of 'our' drones which (I understand) operate effectively in the CAS role in much the same way as a manned ac does, with the CIA/Obama-approved targeted assassinations which currently happen in various countries around the Middle East. The legality/morality of this is dubious at best and undoubtedly causes collateral damage (death of bystanders).

Perhaps MoD PR needs to be more aggressive in its explanation of this particular weapons system.

[cuefaye]

What on earth? Appalling.

[500N]

delta

Agree.

The public lump them all in together and of course think the worst.

[Could be the last?]

www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/drone-pilots-reaper-photo-essay?ico=home^editors_choice

I wonder how we (RAF) intend to manage the expectation of RPAS crews?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

In terms of newly-qualified Fg(RPASP) officers, I don't now. I think the current level of overwork experienced by the Reaper Force is tied to the relentless HERRICK tasking and UOR manning levels (if some US guys feel underworked, I'm sure some of 39/XIII would welcome some exchangees :ok:), so I presume the Force will change markedly in 2015.

I do know of someone (a "normal" pilot) who wanted to move on but was extended for a year to cover the period out to the end of support for HERRICK. Other than that, there seem to be plenty of people popping up at OCUs over the RAF fresh from a Reaper tour without being kept on that fleet.

[Danny42C]

"..........and heard Great Argument
About it and about, but ever I came
Out by that same Door wherein I went"

These chaps are highly trained and motivated, and they do an important and necessary job, and all honour to them, say I. But they are not "Pilots" (in the sense in which the word has always been understood) by any stretch of the imagination. (Even a Marine Pilot must do his job on the ship's bridge).

By all means let them have a distinguishing badge. But the one chosen deceives, and is intended to deceive.

D.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Danny,

Have you seen how a Reaper is flown?

[Danny42C]

5 Forward 6 Back,

Yes, and it demands exactly as much skill as if the chap were actually in it.

But he ain't in it - that's the point. Imagine if MOL decided to cut cost by having his 737s flown by a "pilot" in an office on the ground. How many seats would Ryanair sell ?

I'm afraid this is one of those questions where there'll always be two opinions, and we'll have to agree to differ (perhaps I'm an old fuddy-duddy ?)

Cheers, Danny.

[smujsmith]

Danny,

Fuddy Duddy ? I think not. Like you, I respect the new trade and also suggest that as they have the ability to kill, they must be afforded the respect of that status. I also believe that thanks to the likes of "The Daily Mail" and its energetic headlines, there may be a conception that our drone pilots are as "gung ho" as it seems some American operators have been. I doubt our chaps are that easily mislead, and, I like to think they are upholding the integrity of our service traditions.

Smudge

[Lima Juliet]

there may be a conception that our drone pilots are as "gung ho" as it seems some American operators have been.

If I may, Smudger, let me explain a little bit about Rules of Engagement (ROE), a Targetting Board and a Kill Chain. In almost all cases, there is a set of ROE that a crew of an aircraft (be it manned or unmanned) will work to - normally, the only time a crew can be "gung ho" is when lives are in danger and they get a chance to go weapons free on their own initiative. In fact, in the Reaper/Predator case they are barely ever making decisions on their own as 1-4 Stars will be watching their feed in their Ops Rooms around the world and calling for shots. If it's a tricky shot with potential for collateral casualties then a Targetting Board will sit and the crew will be told what to do. The Kill Chain for an unmanned aircraft is far bigger than that for a traditional manned aircraft because of the Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) feed from the unmanned aircraft - thus, there are probably a lot of "gung ho" individuals telling your so-called "drone pilots" to hit the target on everyone's screens!

It may not surprise you that UK ROE is more restrictive than US ROE, but either way, that ROE is not set by pilots flying the aircraft - and yes they do fly the aircraft (think of it as fly by wire - it's just that the wire is 4,000 miles long!).

LJ

[BEagle]

Who on earth ever invented the vile expression 'Kill Chain'?

Is that a purely US term, or does it also apply to the UK's drone operators?

[Wensleydale]

Who on earth ever invented the vile expression 'Kill Chain'?

Is that
a purely US term, or does it also apply to the UK's drone operators?


What's in a name? Quite a lot apparently. The RAF has done itself no favours by adopting the name "Reaper" for what is a piece of ISTAR equipment. The name implies sudden unexpected death which is not what the aircraft is about when operated by the RAF. Had we used "Air Seaker" for this rather than the Nimrod R1 replacement then perhaps the loony left would not have been so anti? (And the term "Drone" is also somewhat sinister).

Has anyone thought of a more suitable name for this RPAS in RAF service?

[Lima Juliet]

Kill Chain

Applies to both unmanned and manned aircraft; but I wouldn't expect an AT/AAR background aircrew mate to know much about it (unless you get food poisoning from your in-flight!).

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Wensleydale

I doubt the naming of the General Atomics 'Fluffy Woo-Woo' would make much difference!

It's Combat ISTAR or armed-ISTAR whichever way you look at it and it has saved literally thousands of Coalition Forces' lives.

LJ

[BEagle]

LJ, yes my only mud-moving background was in the nuclear role - although we did sully ourselves in the AD F-4 world with some strafe after the S. Atlantic war....

But 'kill chain' is so typically oo-rah and offensive. Whether that applies to aircraft or drones is immaterial.

[cuefaye]

and yes they do fly the aircraft


But as Danny said, they ain't in it, and they are relieved of most adrenalin-pumping decision-making responsibilities. Their pinkies are 100% safe, in all respects; that is the point. However skilful and well-motivated, they are not pilots. Simple.

but I wouldn't expect an AT/AAR background aircrew mate to know much about it

Oh I think you know that he does LJ!

[Wrathmonk]

they are not pilots

Probably get far more '"hands on stick time" as a percentage of each sortie than their civil airline counterparts.;)

And is a pilot on a ground tour, or one whose military flying career has ended (say, due to promotion above gp capt), not a pilot?

[brakedwell]

Probably get far more '"hands on stick time" as a percentage of each sortie than their civil airline counterparts.0

Maybe, but not as much as the hosties :E

[FFP]

When is the term Kill Chain handy ? When some random person watching your feed from half way around the world decides they know better than you what the situation is and sends you a PM while your setting up to take a shot. Clearly something that is not a problem when you're sat above the battlefield in a manned asset.

The reply to such an inject ? A simple PM back saying "Killchain". In that they are not part of it, so the conversation is over :ok:

I notice that the one's arguing over whether they are pilots are not seem to be those that have no "dog in the fight". Don't see any Reaper pilots on here justifying their existence (or flying pay!) to the PPRuNe community. Maybe they are too busy fighting a war / saving lives / to concern themselves with such things.........

Were the first pilots in the RAF accepted by their Army counterparts as "real" military officers if they weren't charging across a muddy field towards a machine gun ? What if you were a UAV operator and then returned to flying real aircraft ? Would you be allowed back into the fold or does such an assignment taint your social standing in the pilot world forever :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

I was immersed in the Pred/Reaper program for quite a few years (including some hands-on outside of ops) and I was also a user of their capabilities on the ground and in the air. The system is going to be part of a Coalition decision making process (if you don't have the stomach for the words 'kill chain') for years to come and has been since introduction in the Balkans. Just like SIGINT, AWACS, SAR (as in Sentinel, etc...), IADS EW RADAR, Satellite, RAPTOR or even a humble targeting pod adds to this picture then Pred/Reaper has the distinct advantage of reach-back to the decision makers in real time and then carrying a weapon to prosecute that target. Furthermore, ISTAR is ever more important to achieve a positive ID with a confidence level high enough for the senior commander with Engagement Authority. I can remember screaming at the CAOC over the RT about a military aircraft we had found flying over Bosnia - the 'kill chain' took too long and by the time any instructions came out the aircraft had landed and we had to go to the tanker for more gas.

BEags - I forgot about your brief spell with the buckets of sunshine, my apologies. However, things have changed since those days with Network Centric Warfare being the way things are done (you saw this with JTIDS being put into the Vickers Funbus - incredibly useful). Furthermore, today's urban CAS against COIN targets makes PID even more of a requirement for even the smallest of weapons like Hellfire.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, our Reaper aircrew are our most experienced combat pilots having experienced the Afghan theatre 365 days a year (excluding leave); some have been on the program for over 7 years. Unless they are flying launch and recovery in theatre, then they are displaced from the combat area, but read any military doctrine in recent times and they mention that the battle-space is becoming blurred and that the enemy will not be so apparent as the past. Well in today's war in Afghanistan, the combatants on both sides may not be Afghanistan - hence we have attrocities that have happened globally in connection.

Finally, you don't have to be hand-to-hand to be a combatant. Think about Agincourt - our archers were well outside the harm of the French knights. Or submariners shooting torpedos against ships with no sub surface capability. Or the RAF during the 30s bombing the natives to keep them in check. Or an artillery battery lobbing shells at infantry 5 miles away. Using a Pred/Reaper is no different to a sniper shooting an enemy with a pistol from 1/2 a mile away.

Times are changing, the way we do our business is also changing and our enemy are changing accordingly. Live with it and accept the concept that sometimes you will have to kill them when your life is not endangered, but if you leave them on the battlefield they will soon kill someone else.

LJ

[CoffmanStarter]

Leon ... Are you enjoying a spot of well earned leave at the moment :ok:

[Danny42C]

Wrathmonk,

Once a pilot, always a pilot (same as riding a bike) IMHO. If they weren't pilots before they "sat down at the at the piano", then they aren't pilots now. But I realise and respect the contrary opinion.

What does puzzle me is this: by all accounts the RAF has pilots coming out of its ears these days, has sacked trainees almost up to Wings Parade and doesn't need any more for the time being.

So why recruit for this new "Speciality", when you have all these people tailor-made for conversion to the trade ? Or am I missing something ?

D.

[Just This Once...]

RAF is very short of pilots but not short of stupidity.

[BEagle]

...you saw this with JTIDS being put into the Vickers Funbus - incredibly useful...

Yes, I know. I wrote the USUR paper which ultimately introduced JTIDS into the VC10K and TriStar for OP ENGADINE - it was 'my baby'!

No bugger ever said thanks though....:hmm:

[lj101]

....thanks

[BEagle]

....thanks

;)



.

[Party Animal]

BEagle - thanks!

No doubt you had huge inward satisfaction of having earned your pay for the month and was delighted that your boss got his OBE out of it. :)

[TheWizard]

Top Drone Pilots Battle At Elite Training School (http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/02/top-drone-pilots-battle-at-elite-training-school/)