A321 runway excursion Lyon.

[sleeper]

Incident: Hermes A321 at Lyon Runway Excursion | Aerosoft Sim News (http://asn.aerosoft.com/?p=21417)

A Hermes Airlines Airbus A321-100 on behalf of Air Mediterranee, registration SX-BHS performing flight ML-7817 from Agadir (Morocco) to Lyon (France) with 174 passengers and 7 crew, overran the end of the runway 36R while landing at Lyon at about 20:50L (19:50Z) and came to a stop about 300 meters past the runway end with all gear on soft ground.
No injuries are being reported.
The airport was closed for about 2.5 hours. The aircraft is estimated to be removed the following day, the runway remains closed until the aircraft has been towed to the apron.
The airport confirmed the aircraft overran the end of runway B by about 300 meters while landing in thick fog and got stuck in deep mud.
Heavy equipment will be needed to move the aircraft back onto paved surface.

Incident: Hermes A321 at Lyon on Mar 29th 2013, runway excursion (http://avherald.com/h?article=45ff32de&opt=0)

For french speakers:
Lyon : sortie de piste d'un Airbus d'Air Méditerranée - Le Point (http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/lyon-sortie-de-piste-d-un-airbus-d-air-mediterranee-30-03-2013-1647860_23.php)

[Dysonsphere]

If the first reports are right thats some overrun the explantions will be intresting as will the excuses.

[A4]

LDA 2670m for 36R. 4000m for 36L. To go 300m off the end of a near 2700m runway takes some doing. If it was "thick fog" then it would be Autoland so possible confusion about which runway they were on and where to exit? It'll be an interesting FDR to see what speed they had at exit.

Just looked at actuals - slight tailwind component (!), viz circa 2k, RVR's 1700m, cloud base SCT/BKN 100-200'. Not what I'd call "thick fog" but I'd elect to Autoland due to cloudbase.

[PJ2]

Some good work is being done in the area of long landings and other causes of overruns:

Landing Long: Why Does It Happen? (http://www.nlr-atsi.nl/downloads/landing-long-why-does-it-happen.pdf)
Report no.
NLR-TP-2011-120

Author(s)
G.W.H. van Es


A STUDY OF RUNWAY EXCURSIONS FROM A EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE (http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/2069.pdf)
Report no.
NLR-CR-2010-259

Author(s)
G.W.H. van Es


Australian Transportation Safety Board: (http://www.iata.org/iata/RERR-toolkit/assets/Content/Contributing%20Reports/ATSB_Runway_Excursions_Report_Part_I.pdf)
Runway excursions
Part 1: A worldwide review of commercial jet aircraft runway excursions (http://www.iata.org/iata/RERR-toolkit/assets/Content/Contributing%20Reports/ATSB_Runway_Excursions_Report_Part_I.pdf)

Part 2: Minimising the likelihood and consequences of runway excursions (http://www.iata.org/iata/RERR-toolkit/assets/Content/Contributing%20Reports/ATSB_Runway_Excursions_Report_Part_II.pdf)

[DaveReidUK]

Game-change in aviation security- the Runway Overrun Protection System - YouTube

As well as being fitted to the A380 and A350, Airbus have announced that ROPS will eventually be available an an option/retrofit on their other current types, A321 included.

[deptrai]

I'm not sure if I fully understand what ROPS will do. It will say "runway too short", and then you step much harder on the brakes and select full reverse? Or will it tell you to go around before that?

edit - I found the answer here: http://www2.icao.int/en/GRSS2011/Documentation/Presentations/PDF/4B-3-Claude%20Lelaie.pdf
looks like a simple and good idea, to add an extra layer of safety

[7478ti]

Another apparent low visibility landing near accident?? When will operators, ANSPs, and OEMs finally realize this is completely unnecessary, now with RNP and GLS potentially available for every runway end on which jet transports operate. To continue this "non-precision" approach madness, or even sustained use of flawed and unnecessarily expensive ILS, as in the A340 "event" at LFPG on March 13, 2012 (see Flight International 19-25 March 2013, page 15) with air transport jet aircraft, is not only unnecessary, ... it now borders on being irresponsible. We can do much better, much safer, much more efficiently, AT LOWER fully allocated cost. It is long past time to fully implement RNP and GLS globally.

[A4]

Tom,

So how do you carry out a landing in 75m RVR using RNP/GLS? Not quite sure why you consider ILS "non-precision" - the AF A340 incident at LFPG you refer to cannot be blamed on the ILS installation. It looks like a complete SA breakdown on the part of the crew followed by a totally inappropriate/incorrect course of action by said crew.

There has to be more to this over-run than meets the eye. We don't even know if they were auto landing. If it isn't brake failure I'd put money on them thinking they were on the 4000m runway.......

[golfyankeesierra]

If it isn't brake failure I'd put money on them thinking they were on the 4000m runway.......
My thoughts exactly!
First thing in my mind when I read about the accident was "how can you go off the end of one of the longest runways of Europe?".
Didn't realise that one is shorter then the other (but then, don't have an approach plate under my nose...)

[2Planks]

A couple of pics:

http://www.ledauphine.com/isere-nord/2013/03/31/nous-avons-eu-peur-que-l-avion-s-enflame (http://www.ledauphine.com/isere-nord/2013/03/31/nous-avons-eu-peur-que-l-avion-s-enflamme)
Sortie de piste d'un avion d'Air Méditerranée à Lyon (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2013/03/30/01016-20130330ARTFIG00281-sortie-de-piste-d-un-avion-d-air-mediterranee-a-lyon.php)

[Expressflight]

The passenger interviewed in that link said that a little while after touchdown there was "intensive" braking, plus the sound of reverse thrust, greater than he would normally have expected.

[SAS-A321]

I think there is more to it, than mistaking the runway lenghts. :oh:

[A4]

Judging by the amount of mud on the fuselage forward of the wing it looks like full reverse has been used. If the pax reports hard braking are correct then it only leaves one possibility - long landing - manual or Autoland float with the tailwind......

[nitpicker330]

I very much doubt the Aircraft would land that long during an Autoland.
Even if it did float you can still Go Around before you select Reverse.

Fast manual Landing with a tailwind? Perhaps...

[A4]

Many moons ago there was either an OEB or FCOM Bulletin specifically about Autoland long FLARE / float. There is a current FCOM Bulletin (FCB27) which talks about Autoland performance to do with unusual terrain and RA issues. This shouldn't apply to 36R as it's pretty flat in short final. However this may have been an old unmodded A321 (I've no idea) which may have been susceptible to the Long Float phenomena. Perhaps someone with a better memory than me can recall the issue?

Even if they were slightly fast, with a tailwind......300m off a 2700+m runway with hard braking and full reverse.......:eek: Very odd.

[Hotel Tango]

The comments from the lady passenger suggests that they sat in the aircraft about one and a half hours with very little assistance from the cabin crew (with such requests as water) and one PA announcement in incomprehensible English from the Captain. Lucky it wasn't such a serious event. I wonder what would have transpired if an emergency evacuation had been needed. Note that the flight was operated for a French carrier (in their livery) by a Greek registered a/c and obviously non French speaking crew.

[7478ti]

ILS has well documented vulnerability and failure modes (e.g, interference, beam bends, multiple glide paths, over flight disturbances, flight inspection use restrictions for both LOC and GS, tidal effects on GS formation, snow effects on beam shape and angle) dating back to the 1930s, ...which is why we still have ILS critical area protection provisions in places like Annex 10, the AIM, and Order 7110.65, ....and why ILS is often NOTAMed OTS just when you need it the most, during snowstorms. As to the LFPG event, GLS can provide a glideslope without fear of encountering multiple GS angles, for safe and efficient RNP capture from either above or below the FAS path. As for RVR 75m, GLS performance and integrity are far better right now that when we did the original Cat III approvals based on ILS back in the early '70s. GLS is entirely capable of supporting fail-op Cat III with RVR advisory, for any TD, mid, or rollout RVR reported. The future is RNP and GLS. It is time to recognize that due to both inherent weaknesses, and high costs, ILSs days are numbered.

[7478ti]

@ Ozymandias

And your credentials to speak here?

[BOAC]

If you look at the aerial view of the end of 36R on Av Herald you can just imagine the crew saying -"Ah - we'll take the next high speed then...................."http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Tom - whatever the merits of your argument, this was not "Another apparent low visibility landing near accident??"

[tubby linton]

A few points:
The bus warns you if it detects a long flare during an autoland.The runway should also have coloured lighting to warn you that you are approaching the end.
The A321 has crap brakes and at a typical charter landing weight will gobble up the distance if only idle reverse and low autobrake are selected.The reversers on the IAE engine never seem as effective as those with CFM.

[Wave off]

Hermes is the greek branch of Air Mediterranee, a french charter airline.
It has been set up because of the "high cost" of European crews (i.e French, British, German...)
The basic salary of a captain is 3200 Euros/month + 11 Euros per diem/duty day.
A FO is paid 1500 Euros/month + 5.5 Euros per diem/duty day.
Now, let's guess what are the funds for maintenance, crew training, and recruitment. :oh:

[WHBM]

Usual story. Pax book on Airline A (Air Mediterranee in this case), familiar sounding, HQ in France, brochure says Air Med, pictures of Air Med aircraft, etc. On the day plane painted up in their livery with nothing on the outside that implies otherwise (apart from an SX- reg), however it actually belongs to and is operated and crewed by Airline Y from bankrupt non-Francophone country Z. Tickets manage to hide this in minimalist legalese small print at bottom of page nnn, "CarrierReservesRightToOperateAlternateCarriersFlightsOperate dBy HermesYaddaYaddaYadda" (ah, this also being the name of a French luxury goods manufacturer, how convenient).

When the crunch comes, Air Med PR swings into action, suddenly Hermes is the only name they write about, Hermes aircraft, Hermes flight, etc. Media just swallows all this despite what the big letters on the side of the aircraft sitting in the weeds may say.

[hotmike]

I would like to add that the co pilots are paying to fly( 40.000. € ) for 500 hours. Also the same happens to the captains with no hours on type , the only difference is that the company provides the line training and the first 500 hours without paying the pilots except per diem when they are out of Greece.
Also someone has to go through the duty and rest times...there is always some interesting things to find....

[fab777]

Rumour ( this is the place, right? ):

Crew deadheaded from Athen, flew LYS -> DKR, then DKR -> AGA, then AGA -> DKR.

Do the math and talk about crew fatigue...

[BOAC]

Let me guess - then to deadhead back again?........................

[tubby linton]

I think that Fab777 meant to write that the final sector was AGA-LYS. This sort of roster will become the norm once EASA impose their new FTL.

[MoonandBack]

Tubby, the engines are CFM.

Why have some people written here about salaries and per diems as if they are fact when they are wrong?

And deadheading from Athens in the same day they did this flight? Also not true.

Please stop the speculation, it only causes for negativity and judgement.

[7478ti]

"...The airport confirmed the aircraft overran the end of runway B by about 300 meters while landing in thick fog and got stuck in deep mud...".

Sir, I would think that "landing in thick fog" perhaps qualifies as a potential "low visibility landing" event or accident"???http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[A4]

The question arises because the actual (METAR) states visibility of 2km and RVR's of 1700m - that's not "thick fog". It's misty (BR) but not foggy (FG). The cloudbase is more problematic - SCT/BKN at 100'.

If the quote came from an airport spokesperson that may explain it. Alternatively, it may be the journo try to add more drama/"shock horror" to the article.

Tom, you obviously have an agenda/interest on GLS/GBAS - it will come (eventually) but is going to require a huge amount of testing before airlines and crews are prepared to carryout CAT IIIB 75m Autolands. The fact is that ILS,despite it's limitations, has been used for decades and is used 10,000's times EVERY DAY perfectly safely. I would be very surprised if this event at LFLL has anything to do with ground equipment.

A4

[BOAC]

I fear the chances of getting anything sensible out of this thread are minimal - French subsidiary, operated by a Greek (presumably loco) company in a 'mishap' at a French airfield in LVPs .....................??

Please stop the speculation, it only causes for negativity and judgement. - from your post we must assume you have the correct crew roster info then - care to share? (Plus any other 'real' info?)

[MoonandBack]

Fab777 said:
"Crew deadheaded from Athen, flew LYS -> DKR, then DKR -> AGA, then AGA -> DKR."

LYS- DKR is a six hour flight. This cannot be done on an A321 if I am correct (unless the aircraft would be empy), and would need a tech stop in AGA for refuelling each way. This would have brought duty time to over 15 hours - well over the limit. The crew would have started in DKR, stopped at AGA, and flown on to LYS.

[Magplug]

Ok.....Try this theory for size.

They carried out a coupled Cat 1 approach in marginal (but do-able) conditions of cloudbase..... the vis was fine. Bear in mind of course that flying Cat 1 approaches to minimums is not something you do regularly when you live in a nice warm Mediterranean country.

The HP sees the required references at DA and immediately punches the AP out without waiting to build his visual SA in the interventing 20s or so before touchdown. Like so many inexperienced pilots I have sat next to.... he handles the instrument/visual transition badly. With the limited visual references he becomes ground-shy and begins to wander above the glide. By the time he notices..... his touchdown point is already beyond the touchdown zone. He becomes even more resolved to put this thing down.... but as the vertical profile has become unstable he burns up even more tarmac trying. Finally he gets the nosewheel down at which point they both witness red & white centreline lights.... and it is all too bloody late.

Driving 300m through mud in a 65 tonne 321 is a pretty fair effort !

Perversely we all (western Europeans anyway) beat ourselves up about stable gates at 1000' / 500' or whatever...... These guys may actually have been perfectly stable at DA and still managed an upwind overrun.

Perhaps all those stable approach criteria are actually a complete waste of time ?

[MoonandBack]

Magplug you seem to make a lot of sense in that post, and I think you're probably very accurate in what happened. However, these guys do all their flying from CDG & Lyon, so your comment about 'flying in Mediterranean countries' is slightly flippant.

[Annex14]

I think with all the commotion in this thread two questions have not yet been asked and also not answered.
Why did the crew decide to land on the shorter runway ?
Why did the crew accept a landing on rwy 36R with a starting or increasing(Metar) tailwind component seen the reported weather situation?

[eagle21]

I hear reports that the approach in terms of speed was unstable all the way until landing took place. I can not provide more information at this stage.

[glofish]

Madplug, you are so spot on.

These guys may actually have been perfectly stable at DA and still managed an upwind overrun ...

... he handles the instrument/visual transition badly. With the limited visual references he becomes ground-shy and begins to wander above the glide ...

This might be the biggest hole in the Swiss cheese today!

With the ever more limited basic training, all in the sim, and the even more limited exposure to manual training on line, thanks to hand-cuffing sop's, it might only get worse.

The reaction of the industry by implementing some manual handling sim sessions is nothing more than a badly adhering band-aid.
What is needed is a more profound basic training in real aircraft (esp. aerobatics) and more manual handling in the real thing, the sim is just a more sophisticated app.

[EGPFlyer]

LYS-DKR is not a problem direct in an A321 even with a good load

[FBW390]

Magplug: i think you're spot on!

And: 36R is the normal ldg rwy in LFLS. 36L for TO. And 2700m is NOT short at all for A321 or widebodies! Shorter runways are used for landing in Paris CDG, Or JFK 22L for instance...

[FullWings]

300m off the end of a 2700m runway realistically means either a) retardation devices (brakes, spoilers, reverse) failed or not deployed or b) very deep and/or fast touchdown.

From passenger reports, it seems the brakes and reversers were in use, so that leaves b). To get 300m on grass/mud, you're looking at leaving the tarmac at 80kts+ groundspeed.

Reminds me a bit of AA331 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_331) or even Air India Express 812 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Express_Flight_812). Results would have been similar if the overrun at LYS wasn't so benign.

[vfenext]

While the days of ILS may be numbered it is still a far more reliable system that RNP at this point in time. I fly both regularly, including GNSS, RNP-AR and regular RNAV approaches. They all must be monitored very carefully especially during GP intercept. I have had many more problems with these GPS approaches than ILS. The future will definitely be RNP but not until there is a ground based element to allow CAT3 and filter out the built in errors of GPS. At the moment all it takes is the wrong QNH to be set in the FMS and the approach wont work as your crossing heights will be wrong. There are numerous examples of ATC passing the wrong setting! Think I will stick to ILS for a few more years.

[bacp]

Couldn't agree more with the above comment, tricky blighters with many traps for the unwary. The theory is great, but the practice, at least in the airbus, is never confidence inspiring and the decisions that the software is making on when to descend and at what rate are often opaque. Give me an NDB any time, at least i was in charge of things!.

[tubby linton]

From the QRH of an IAE powered A321:
Landing dist :
-Dry Runway @78T
-Conf Full
Autobrake Medium= 1480m
Low=2100m
Autoland +260m
Spd +5kt>Vls MED+100m/LOW+140m
Tailwind,per5kt TW MED+140m/LOW+210m
No factor for reversers.
The AvHeraldshows the weather as having been raining and a slight tailwind at the time of the incident

[Magplug]

At the moment all it takes is the wrong QNH to be set in the FMS and the approach wont work as your crossing heights will be wrong. There are numerous examples of ATC passing the wrong setting! Think I will stick to ILS for a few more years.

...Are you seriously suggesting that these guys were doing an RNAV approach to 36R and that contributed to their instability ??? I would suggest you take a look at the METAR information above again. An ILS was their only option.

@ MoonAndBack.... Six hours not possible on an A321 ??? You are sorely mistaken... I believe my personal record is closer to 6h45 before needing to use the auxiliary tanks.

[BOAC]

...Are you seriously suggesting that these guys were doing an RNAV approach to 36R and that contributed to their instability ??? I would suggest you take a look at the METAR information above again. An ILS was their only option. - I think you have been confused by the 'contamination' of the thread by Tom Imrich (mostly page 1) regarding RNAV approaches etc and I suspect 'vfenext' is replying to that and not referring to this specific incident?

[Magplug]

Hi Mike.... Take your point. We seemed to get all the way to post #7 before somebody took off on a completely unrelated tangent!

Have you finally hung up those white gloves yet ?

[BOAC]

Yup, Richard - they are on EBay if you need a pair.:)

[boguing]

Friend operated a flight to and from Lyons last week. A320 FO.

He said that it was pretty obvious that reversers were used (at least in the mud) from the amount of the clag all over it.

[MoonandBack]

Whether the A321 can do the flight in one go or not is not the point - They started in Dakar so there should not have been an issue of tiredness.

Also, they had CFM engines, not IAE.

[tubby linton]

There is no factor for the use of reverse on a dry runway in the QRH so the engine type is irrelevant.

[7478ti]

I concur on your comment that ILS will appropriately be with us for a long time, and it provides good, albeit at times imperfect and typically expensive service. Also, particular current generation autoflight systems implementing RNP procedures can certainly benefit from some further evolution, simplification and enhancement. But overall, the combination of RNP with GBAS/GLS is likely to provide us with an extremely robust low cost and very safe family of globally available path solutions for navigation (not just for takeoff and landing), perhaps for centuries to come. It is time for operators and ANSPs, as well as authorities to now get on board. It is the future of navigation.

[ATC Watcher]

RNP vs Ground based navaids :It is the future of navigation.
My turf now : You are probably right depending on your definition of " future",
long term , probably , next 20-30 years ? probably not.
We all thought in the 80'and early 90's that HF, NDBs , VORs and ILS would have disappeared by 2000. But here we go, HF transmitters and NDBs ( mainly IAFs), ILS are still manufactured new today as we speak..
Main reason is redundancy and ownership . GPS is still a military system owned by the US Military who can switch it off or degrade its accuracy when they like,
Many States do not like this.
So as long as Gallileo or whatever new independent system comes up ( but at a cost of course) , ground navaids are here to stay in some parts of the world at least .
mark my words,

[Nopax,thanx]

I've been sent a couple of pics by a friend in Paris but unforunately can't seem to upload them; one shows the aircraft from above, and it is parked next to a socking great hole; could have been way, way worse....

[BOAC]

Courtesy of Nopax,thanx - these will make your eyes water!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/boacphotos/photo5_zps53a338f1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/boacphotos/photo6_zps67156633.jpg

[TSR2]

Most unusual colour scheme !!!

[BOAC]

Merde, in French.

[C212-100]

Doesn't look like CONF FULL, does it?

[atakacs]

Waa that was a close one ! They overshot by quite a distance !

[A4]

I wonder if they deliberately turned to avoid the LOC TXR? Not sure if its Flap full - the 321 does have different flaps to the rest of the Airbus narrow body series. If they'd gone down that hole.......:\

A4

[charlies angel]

C212-100 and A4

For info an A321 doing a manual landing with manual braking will use @1200mtrs with conf full and prob only an extra 50-100 mtrs using conf 3 at sea level.
Not really a factor in the over run, landing conf 3 or full I would suggest.

Incidentally some operators land A321 into Skiathos (LGSK) at 75T/no wind/35*c and can still stop in @800 metres:uhoh:

So even after an (extremely) long autoland and not touching down until the start of the red/whites a light A321 would easily stop before the end of the runway.

[A4]

Incidentally some operators land A321 into Skiathos (LGSK) at 75T/no wind/35*c and can still stop in @800 metres

And what temp do the brakes get to? :E The figures in the QRH are Airbus test pilot figures - new aircraft, new brakes, over the fence at exactly 50', plant it and STAND FULL on the brakes. Get the tape measure out and there's your ACTUAL landing distance. Us mere mortals need to add 15% (at least) to take account brake wear, generally inability etc etc

I'm still mystified as to how they went so far off the end. Also v surprised that the name has not been white washed of the aircraft - hardly a great advert is it?

A4

[BOAC]

has not been white washed of the aircraft - but they did try to brown wash it off............................and they could have just hidden it in the quarry.

[slast]

Report available....

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2013/sx-s130329.en/pdf/sx-s130329.en.pdf

Experience levels, fatigue and training/organisation significant. Also see same factors same operator incident report

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2012/sx-v120411.en/pdf/sx-v120411.en.pdf

[atakacs]

The PM called out “Leave it“ several times and applied a succession of harder nose- down inputs (1/2 pitch down) until touchdown. Meanwhile, the PF maintained a hard nose-up input (1/2 pitch up on average). The resulting input was nose up. During this phase, the synthetic voice called out “DUAL INPUT“.



Woops

[viking767]

The BEA reported that the first officer (26, ATPL, 600 hours total, 314 on type) was pilot flying,

Glad that is no longer possible here in the US.

[fox niner]

How is it possible to have an ATPL with only 600 hours? I thought 1500 was the minimum.

[Ka8 Flyer]

He didn't. He had the ATPL theory (fATPL) and a CPL.
Seems like the F/O was struggling along the whole time.

[The Ancient Geek]

How is it possible to have an ATPL with only 600 hours? I thought 1500 was the minimum.

No, an ATPL is just CPL plus multicrew and CRM.
150 hours is enough for a CPL, many students leave training school with a frozen ATPL at under 200 hours ready to find a job and a type rating.

A type rating unfreezes the ATPL, this is part of the "on the job" training in the RH seat.

The USA has unilaterally imposed a 1500 hour minimum for carrying passengers, this is a controversial subject because it puts a very big roadblock in the normal career progression and is causing pilot shortages in the USA. Basically a daft kneejerk reaction by politicians in response to the Colgan Air crash.

[peekay4]

EASA ATPL(A) requires a minimum of 1,500 flight time hours including 500 hours in multi-pilot operations.

[The Ancient Geek]

EASA ATPL(A) requires a minimum of 1,500 flight time hours including 500 hours in multi-pilot operations.

Indeed, but those hours are built on the job in the right hand seat.
The ATPL is not REQUIRED until you want to move to the LH seat.

Incidentally, there are a few gotchas in building those multipilot hours, for example the DHC6 Twotter is most often flown with 2 pilots but it is certificated for single pilot operation so those hours may not count, depending on the jurisdiction, the phase of the moon and the jobsworth credentials of the guy checking qualifications.

[FarTooManyUsers]

I don't know if things at HCAA have improved in the intervening years ... but this report is pretty damming .... what can EASA do if a member state's AA isn't working properly?

quotes from the BEA report:


3.2 Causes of the Accident
the absence of suitable initial oversight which made it impossible for the HCAA to focus on the predictable potential operational weaknesses of Hermes Airlines

4 Safety Recommendations
The HCAA implement an appropriate oversight programme for Hermes Airlines, specifically based on the risks identified during the investigation. [Recommendation FRAN-2015-028]

[framer]

Glad that is no longer possible here in the US.
Amen to that. If I put my wife and kids on a jet I don't want the Capt to be distracted by someone learning how to fly. The f/o should be a solid back up, not a ' work in progress' .

[KingAir1978]

Hermes Airlines officials explained that because of the «low cost» profile of the operator, the recruitment of young inexperienced copilots was also economically more interesting than that of experienced copilots.

Is Hermes Airlines pay to fly?

[RAT 5]

Is Hermes Airlines pay to fly?

I always thought that was the role of the pax.

[ShotOne]

It SHOULD be the role of the pax, RAT5. Unfortunately, ..no, make that outrageously, many low cost carriers are somehow allowed by supine regulators to have very inexperienced trainee pilots, not employed by the airline, paying to sit in the right hand seat to be trained. It will be interesting to hear if that was the case here.

[172_driver]

So I'm not too familiar with EASA rules but how is that legal?

15 hrs is achievable. Max FDP 13 hrs + 2 hrs captain's discretion.

[FarTooManyUsers]

The report doesn't state it ... but I've heard that this pilot was indeed paying to fly.