Korean Air for expats

[cediazf]

I just went through the entire training program at KAL. I was just one flight short of the check-ride, feeling great and fully ready for it when based on the opinion of one person, with total disregard of a trouble-free training, my contract was terminated with the only reason given as "following company procedure"

The training is between 3 to 4 months long and ok during ground school. I was there 4 and a half months. FTD training which is like fix based simulator with korean instructors is the beginning of the stress. Some of them are very demanding and treat you like you are stupid and has never flown before. They emphasize so much SOP's but on the other hand each instructor seems to have his own agenda and his own way of doing things. You need luck to be paired with a good and reasonable instructor. Full flight simulator is ok since most instructors are westerners and very reasonable, mostly retired airline pilots from US, Canada, Australia or Europe.

They don't let you get away with anything but they work with you. The real nightmare is during OE training. In my case I was failed for time management because my instructor wanted me to finish the long landing briefing they demand way before top of descent. Their own procedure states just before TOD but he wanted it way before who knows why. Everything else being ok he failed me for that, saying I had time management problems, and that was strike one. I was sent to the FTD and the junior instructor failed me because he put me in a holding, then all of a sudden changed the STAR and Runway and I made the horrible sin in his eyes to ask for an additional holding pattern to prepare for the new arrival and he wanted me to proceed immediately in an unfamiliar area.

I insisted in an additional holding pattern explaining I would be ready after it which I was but he failed me saying I still had time management problems. That was strike two. After that I was placed on another FTD with a training manager who found no problems whatsoever and gave me the green light to continue OE. However, on my recommendation flight, my instructor wrote about some minor mistakes on previous flights and unfortunately I almost missed my gate while taxiing in since there were 2 wing walkers in place at an adjacent gate and I got confused. Reason enough to report I had no situational awareness on the ground and not recommending me for check ride. That was strike 3 and they terminated my contract just like that.

They said their procedures call for automatic termination after 3 failures.

I appealed to my good training record and these being minor issues to no avail. So it's a matter of luck.

I am now another unlucky unemployed pilot that invested 13 grand plus hotel and airfare to get typed on the airplane only to be merciless dismissed with total disregard of a good training file and the good opinion of one of the training managers and all my simulator instructors. They don't count good things, only the bad. Any small thing or issue will be used against you, you can count on that.
KAL is a nice job if you make it through training. If you make the money investment like I did it is kind of a gamble.

I never studied as hard in my career. 27 years of experience, over 7000 PIC time hours and learning all their procedures and callout verbatim did not help me. They never compliment anybody. In my case the only compliment that I got as outstanding flying skills did not help. Like I said, only the negatives are considered to make a life changing decision there against a pilot who had made the investment in time, money and effort to get there and to stay there. If you decide to apply and get a class date, make sure you can get your old job back if you don't make it, be prepared to be humiliated, yelled at in some cases (not mine, I must admit) or treated like stupid and if you are going to pay to get your type, you have been warned, its a gamble. It will be worth every penny if you make it but it will be extremely painful as I can attest now if you don't.

I heard some similar stories of this happening to several experienced pilots before I went there and saw myself 3 of such cases while I was there in training. I felt so bad for them. Little I knew I would be next. I wish whoever decides to go there better luck than the one I and others have had.

[jimmyg]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Many thanks for highlighting the pit falls of an Asia experience.

One more time letting all know that one should never, repeat never attempt a pay for training gig.

[320busdriver]

Jimmy please don`t mix up the two :ugh:it`s not the pit falls of an asia experience but the pit falls of Korean Airlines. There are lots and lots of of write ups on Korean Airlines on pprune,:mad: its a crap shoot, more than likely people will encounter problems there, do a search its all here good luck to anyone going there.

[squarecrow]

I heard Asiana give you 2 line checks if joining as PIC? 1 Company and 1 Government.

If the Government guy doesnt like your face then u fail.

can see why people advise to think twice.

[Watchdog]

Cediazf,

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

I have heard of many similar experiences at KAL. It's a big risk to give up a job/stump up for a rating then join this mob!

[captain.weird]

But is Korean Air as an expat employer good? I've read too much bad things about this company (regarding expats).. Not really 1 good story..

[FBW390]

Cediazf
Thanks for sharing your story; I feel sorry for you; but it confirms Korean Air is the 100% CRAP airline NEVER to apply to!:yuk::ugh:
And yes there are plenty of nicer airlines in Asia! And Asia starts in the Gulf! EK, QR and EY are better! THY, as well! Not perfect, but there the pilots are not racists like in Korean!
By the way what is your "new" type rating? 777? 744? A330?

All the best,:)

FBY 390

[Slasher]

Sorry to hear that cediazf but yours is yet another story in the hundreds I've
heard over many years. Even if you had made it you'd still have problems of
"surprise" line checks, FOs who report you to their miserable masters over
just about anything no matter how trivial, etc etc. KAL isn't happy unless
you're stressed every day.

There's Asian airlines and then there's bloody KAL and its institutionalised
racism. I'm not talking about the popular Western synonym for name-calling
but the true definition of racism - being behind the eight-ball from day one
through no fault of your own simply because you are not of the same genes
and blood of the host.

Stay away from them - the buggers are definitely not worth the effort and
stress.

[service monkey]

Cediazf, sorry for you troubles.

I applied through an agency for KAL B744 DEC position. All was well until the little advertised requirement of four years of Airline First Officer experience. Didn't matter the total hours in the right seat, nor years/hours as aircraft commander/PIC or as Flight Engineer, RO, etc-had to be four years. I was shy 2 months as First Officer, so I don't get to play. It's their game and their rules.

Although I still need a job, I realize now how unreasonable and obstinate these folks are and feel fortunate that I wasn't offered a position.

[cediazf]

It is on the B777

[cediazf]

Yes Service Monkey. Unreasonable seems an understatement. I tried not to be insulting but is good to refresh the mind of those considering Korean. Like I said, if you make it through training after putting up with lots of BS is not too bad but you are always at risk, a check ride away from dismissal. However, I must say that even some korean first officers are unhappy since they are treated like inferiors and expected to please their korean captains. especially those captains coming from the military. Even some young korean captains cannot take the pressure anymore and have left to China. But whether the koreans like it or not, they need the expats and hopefully if the pipe starts to dry they may have to revise their unfair and some time terroristic practices. I must say that I know some guys who are happy with the job but have witnessed many injustices and speak about them all the time. It's sad that you have to depend on luck to get and keep a job. I just hope to save somebody from unfairly having his hopes and dreams destroyed the way I had mine.

[Liftdumper]

For some reason, on the B777 98% of the non-rated guys get killed during OE training.
In 2012 just 2 non-rated captains, out of many, made it all the way through.

The 777 still seems to be the darling-fleet, and experienced 757/767 guys seem to be not good enough to steer those.

It's a shame.

Best advise is to have a plan B or just don't go there at all if it's for the 777.

[7Q Off]

How are things on the 737 fleet?

[54fighting]

Dear Mr. Cediazf,

When reading your thread, I initially felt a little sorry for you, but after reading both, I'm glad I'll never meet you.
My favorite line you wrote was "It's sad that you have to depend on
luck to get and keep a job." REALLY ?? You mean that ? So being in my second decade at KAL, it's been all luck so far? The 400+ ex-pats at KAL
are sure to be impressed by your assessment, after your lengthy 4 month tenure.
You talk about your trouble-free training, yet it was stressful. You
seem excited about the long landing briefing THEY DEMAND. Guess what
dude? That's SOP. Long-winded, I agree, but it's their program. I do a long
briefing all the time, why? It's SOP. Missing parking spots, callouts, etc.,
become part of the book they keep on you, and the book is not the one you carry with you, trust me.

You knew in the beginning it was a gamble. You say, you heard
similar stories before. Yet you still rolled the dice, and lost. So now it's time to press on. You stated you have "outstanding flying skills", your
words, and a good training record. Get a copy, and with your outstanding
resume with a 777 rating, you'll be all set.

I'll continue on at KAL, and hope my lucky streak continues, because as you stated, that's how us KAL guys keep our job.

If you are still in the gambling mood, take Miami over Marquette.

[box]

54fighting. Are you an adult?

[Intruder One]

I'm sorry 54fighting to disagree with you on one thing about your post.........Miami will beat Marq........with no problem whatsoever

[cediazf]

Well 54fighting. You are entitled to your opinion. I heard from several guys flying there who looked at my training record that they made far worst mistakes than the ones I made and they made it. Their instructors debriefed them and were glad those happened on OE and they were able to talk about them and correct them. They got an extra OE and problem solved, they made it. I was denied the extra OE with a very decent training record. If that is not luck you tell me what it is. Had I had one of those instructors maybe I will be there. Sorry but other than luck I don't know how to call it. I strongly believe in SOP's and for your information never missed a callout. I did the long briefings even though I disagreed with some of its parts but I adapted. Good for you that you like those and I obliged as part of me adapting to their program. I will not apologize for being human and make non safety related mistakes like we all make and I have a 27 year career incident and accident free to prove it in far worst flying conditions than there. They know that non rated pilots made an investment to be there and unfortunately seems that they are not willing to work with the guys that made the extra sacrifice and effort to be there. And don't tell me than in your long time there you have not witnessed a good deal of injustices. I was clear. I have some friends there who are happy with the job but at the same time they all invariably speak about some unfair practices and some nonsense going on like a Guy who barely speaks english going in a flight to supervise how good your ATc communications are or at least half a dozen cases I heard about the OE instructor screaming to the trainee below 10,000 feet when nothing serious was happening, so much for SOP and Flight Safety. I am glad you are there and enjoying. I would surely be happier had I made it but was already aware of some unfair practices and decisions that happened while I was there. Yes, I took my chances, expected a fair treatment and it did not happen for me. Just think they should stop offering a chance to non type rated pilots unless they are willing to make the effort to help them make it like they do with their korean pilots. Sadly I found out too late the non type rated pilots failure rate. Most pilots who pay for their type are merciless failed in a percentage that seems to be on the 80%. And those are the pilots who should receive a little extra help as long as they do their part and are safe, And whether you believe it or not, I was as ready as anybody. What they counted as my third failure should have been the first. Failing me for time management or for following their book not letting ATC rush me as they advice was unfair and I was "unlucky" to have that kind of instructor. Ok, I may take back the part of needing luck to keep you job after passing the training but you definitively need a good deal of luck to pass OE or FTD depending on the korean instructor you get. Don't judge anybody until you have been on their shoes.

[chillchillchill]

If you're lucky enough to make it through the first few years, it's harder for the Korean check airman to fail you. How could you have made it earlier with no "situational awareness"?
Truth is you made it through those years because you were lucky. 54fighting (and I) were lucky. Cedia is not wrong in his assesment, he was honest regarding his (minor) mistakes, I've made worse. At any reasonable airline, those issues would have been discussed, but certainly not led to failure.

[cediazf]

Good to be told also. Most koreans are nice people. The guys in the expat department were super nice even in my last moments there. The biggest problem seems to be in the training department and their unfair practices. They have a tough screening and a tough training and somebody who passed the screening and once there makes it to the last segment of the training virtually troublefree deserves some extra chance. They spend over 50K dollars per person in that training. It does not seem to make sense to through it all away for not doing a couple of extra OE flights on guys with an otherwise a good record. Since they are reluctant to change their procedures, even less if advised from someone who is not korean, I just want those considering Korean to have more information on what to expect that what I had. Yes, I am deeply hurt for how they finally treated me, unemployed thanks to their insensitivity and with another debt to pay but I will survive. I would not say forget about korea. If you are typed and unemployed, give it a shot but know what to expect. If you have to pay for your type, think twice unless you have alternative plans in place. All the best to you all.

[Apache702]

Good luck to those in the area

[Akali Dal]

In the first place, KAL should have never taken in non qualified, non type rated pilots. In industrial practice, it is not justified as if the company is short of pilots, they must only recruited type rated pilots with at least a few years of experience. No right minded Korean should stand for this wanton practice of hiring non rated guys on the cheap and give them " free " endorsesment and OE training at the expense of national pilots.

This practice of non rated pilots buying a cheap type rating at some pilot mills and then hopping onto the big league is abhorrent...it is a kind of paying/ buying to fly in a different guise. I won't be surprised that KAL will start the practice now prevalent in Indonesis (Lion Air, Malindo, etc ) where you pay to fly...the good days in the land of morning calm may soon be over.

[The Dominican]

I don't have a dog on this fight, I don't work for KAL but.......!

First of all, people are getting these type ratings at Boeing, not some puppy mill as you refer to it, second, about hopping into the big leagues, I know several pilots that have gone to KAL, these are very experienced pilots with thousands of hours of heavy jet PIC times and these guys have experience as check airmen/ instructors, these are NOT in any way, shape or form, P2F scheme guys. I think that we have a very short memory here, the reason why KAL started hiring expats in the first place, was because they were having crashes left and right for a few years there. Many companies now are hiring non rated pilots, not just KAL, and the practice will increase as the market for experienced pilots get tighter, your observations are moronic at best:=

[Molokai]

But......you have buddies who are adventurers who hope to make a killing in the Far East at the expense of locals.

With the very much devalued greenback, KAL reckons it is cheaper to hire cheap dodgy expats. They don't have to pay things like 6 monthly bonuses, medical coverage, holiday/vacation entitlements, insurance and education fees like they would need for the locals. Overall, a local pilot costs more.

Akali has a good point; only cockeyed expat adventurers refuse to see it. If this happen in a first world country, the unions would go amok.

[captjns]

How's the mood among expats that the loon up north has declared a state of war against the south?

[The Dominican]

Oh, you mean first world countries where the main line carriers won't be allowed by the all mighty unions to farm out over 57% of the domestic feed to cheaper labor at the regional carriers? :rolleyes:

Thanks for the laugh!

[Molokai]

What warped logic...domestic regional carriers taking over unprofitable legacy carrier routes are a different kettle of fish. They are not foreigners taking over local jobs; compare apples to apples, not grapefruits to pears! :\

[squarecrow]

Akali, I have Korean friends who are working in other country cos they dont want to work there at KAL.
There eyes arent cocked or crossed either Molotov.

[ironbutt57]

cheap dodgy expats maybe because expensive quintessentially perfect locals kept writing off aircraft and passengers

[NG_Kaptain]

I work for a GCC airline that has perhaps thirty Koreans flying for us, all of them left KAL and Asiana because of how their own people treated them. Most of the ones I have flown with have told me some real horror stories of what they had to go through and having to leave home to get a job which treated them with more dignity.

[The Dominican]

What warped logic...domestic regional carriers taking over unprofitable legacy carrier routes are a different kettle of fish. They are not foreigners taking over local jobs; compare apples to apples, not grapefruits to pears!

I should have known you were one of the 60%+ voters at your carrier:rolleyes:

That is the problem when people speak without knowing what they are talking about, you and your friend talking about unqualified people out of puppy mills when in fact, they needed to bring people from the training department at Delta and other places to look into the cultural issues that were causing them to crash several airplanes and almost lose the rights to fly into Europe and the US, educate yourself before you make silly statements about "first world countries and unions"

[cediazf]

Dominican. You are right and in the point. Some of these fools writing crap here don't know the facts. The koreans were destroying their own airline and as you and others rightfully say were forced to bring guys from Boeing and Delta in the brink of losing rights to fly to Europe and America. Most asian pilots don't like to fly. They take the job because of the paid training and job security. It is a known fact that they do not produce enough pilots to supply the demand. Other airlines in Asia bring non typed pilots and even provide the type at their own expense in exchange for a training bond. We have other examples in Japan, Taiwan and China. The koreans just save themselves the money by making the expats that they need to pay for their type. Then just provide a quick cheaper re-qualification training and if you are not perfect in everything send you home like in my case. If they were getting enough people with the type they would not bother. I myself got my type at Boeing in Seattle. Maybe some of these clowns writing bs here can recommend a better place. And yes, as stated, several korean pilots have left Kal and more on the way because they can no longer handle the stress. It is as bad at least during training to miss a callout as to boost an altitude. It's ridiculous.

[ironbutt57]

Never applied to Korean, but three close acquaintances from UAE airlines got the "I'm outta here" syndrome, and left for greener Korean pastures...all returned within a 3 year time frame with horror stories...

[Frenk Boreman]

cediazf, do talk to some very old timers in KAL who may still be around. The guys who were there in 1998/99. They may be able to give you some pointers as to how to get those miscreants in the Training dept to eat their humble pie.

During the end of 98/99, some expats were secretly able to get some new recruits to get the agencies to apply maximum pressure on KAL training department...it was a sly, underhand tactic but it worked and a few Canucks and Malaysians were saved from being culled.

[mauijim]

cediazf..
Thanks for taking the time to inform your colleagues. To those negative comments regarding cdfz's post, I just don't get it...
I was required to attend screening in April, but turned it down due to personal reasons.
I had read and being told of gambling careers when training with KAL.
I just did a line check with the Check Capt who was also being checked by DOA. Requested a Holding pattern due to abrupt unforecasted weather and RWY changes.
Both very experienced Checkers agreed with my decision. I would have done the same as you did.
I don't think I will be going to South Korea.
Thank you once again cediazf. With your type of character and care, I am sure you will find something much better. I wish you all the very best in your future.
mj.

[cediazf]

Thanks mj. Good luck and all the best to you too.

[PalmtreePilot74]

Thanks for taking the time to inform your colleagues. To those negative comments regarding cdfz's post, I just don't get it...
I was required to attend screening in April, but turned it down due to personal reasons.
I had read and being told of gambling careers when training with KAL.
I just did a line check with the Check Capt who was also being checked by DOA. Requested a Holding pattern due to abrupt unforecasted weather and RWY changes.
Both very experienced Checkers agreed with my decision. I would have done the same as you did.
I don't think I will be going to South Korea.
Thank you once again cediazf. With your type of character and care, I am sure you will find something much better. I wish you all the very best in your future.

Couldn't agree more! As a furloughed 74 pilot I'd rather flight instruct, work at Home Depot or stay unemployed, than subject myself to a racist and subjective Korean training program to be a lifetime FO for $8k a month.:= :yuk:

[Kilda Ste Hilda]

Frenk, I heard some strange story about some kind of anonymous letter circulated to some then Malaysian applicants which spooked some agencies to reluctantly spring into action demanding that KAL nail those miscreants in the training division. Seemed that the Malaysians were all failed in the pre-employment checks but because of that letter, KAL came under some pressure from the agencies to recall the applicants for rechecks which they subsequently passed. I thought it was just some fairy tale knowing how hard nosed the Koreans can be!

[San Pedro]

Frenk Borman, care to share the details? I heard that the 1999/2000 recruitment period was really a confusing time and the recruitment agencies were just stabbing in the dark. Apparently some good came out of the mess then!

[falcon330]

Sorry , is canada usa? Or is it france , oh oh none of them ...... All said .....

Keep eating there kimchi ...

[falcon330]

Cd. Sorry to correct you, is not gamble , as gamble in las vegas is fun, it is an arena , with blood running .i eat this kimchi before . Is not tasty , good luck on your new job, you are better off my friend. Viva av....sa

[Frenk Boreman]

OK San Pedro and Kilda. It has been some 14-15 years and most of the guys have moved on. In year 1999, two friends were recruited into KAL and were undergoing line training, so called OE training together with some 3 Malaysians. Unbeknownst tothem, it was actually a sham with them being set up to be culled at the final checks. I knew this because I was close to the local Korean managing VP of flight operations who was also on the MD-11 fleet. He confided in me that a rogue group instructors and checkers who had stong ties to the KMOT ( Korean Transport Ministry ) check airmen were planning to fail all the expat trainees at the final moment as a warning to prospective recruits.

One of the expat trainees was related to a close relative and my Korean MVP friend told me that he can only helped get rid of those rogue Korean instructors and checkers if he had very very good reasons to. Basically his hands were tied due to their MOT ties.

As it so happened, a new group of Malaysian pilot recruits came for their pre-employment checks and 95% were failed!! We latched onto this to see if we can get a volunteer amongst the Malaysians to stir up the recruitment agencies to force KAL and MOT to move against those rogues. We managed to contact an earlier successful Malaysian applicant to voluntarily sent some anonymous letter to one of the failees hoping that this must come to the attention of the pilot recruitment agencies with the proviso that he leave enough clues to let the finger point to him alone ( as a sacrificial scapegoat ) should the plan go pear shape. It was planned as such since he had not committed to signing up for KAL yet. So no aspersion can be cast on any of the then existing foreign pilot trainees.

To cut a long and complicated story ( the plan almost derailed when some overzealous Malaysian pilots failed to see through the highly convoluted scheme ) short, it was partly successful. The agencies put pressure on KAL and MOT, the KAL flight ops MVP was able to remove some of the rogue instructors. Our plan to have all of them removed failed, but the hard core ones were warned and the removal of some stalled their plans to cull those expats who were then in training...in the end all of them passed!

The MVP was able to help recruit scores more foreign pilots after that. However, the long arm of those rogue elements from the ROK Air Force academy 2 and the navy ensured that his tenure as MVP did not last long. He was toppled from that position a year later.

The rogue elements of the KAL local pilot force come mainly from the second Air Force Academy who have strong ties to their Aviation University and the MOT. I suppose they are now maintaining their influence and stranglehold. I may be wrong as I left almost a decade ago.

When dealing with the stubborn Korean psyche, one needs to be creative and brutal when need be. Someone need to take up the cudgel.

[Tipsy Barossa]

Hey Frenk, heard about it from an ex MD 11 guy who was formerly with Eastern. Were you guys co-conspirators:ok:? Ha ha ha, he refused to elaborate because the protagonists were still in employ there in kimchiland.

The whole local Korean Air pilot group are losers with a lot of infighting. The Air Force Academy ones gripe about the Academy 2 guys surpassing them, the ex Navy pilots tried to sabotage some air force guys when the MVP was an ex-Navy guy. The ex-Army fella conspire with their cohorts at KCASA to do others in. The ex Jeju cadets were forever planning strikes or leaving KAL. The expats were the ones that get them to fight together! They only unite because of the expats!

[7Q Off]

How are things on the 737 fleet for expats? :ugh:

[billabongbill]

Frenk...interesting account. I like most of the Malaysian guys, very knowledgeable and easygoing especially loony loong! But I was always uneasy with the pipe smoking fella and that chap who can't speak proper English but try write volumes in his audit reports. So now it bears out that people in the sandpit are pissed with their mafia fast tracking the pipe smoking taliban type,my guts were right.:ok:

[songman]

Would you guys rather work at Regionals in U.S.A. thank KAL?

[7Q Off]

things are the same on the 737 fleet than in the widebodies fleets?

[yelena]

Hello Frenk...my hubby is running into a bit of trouble now with some nasty ZlCPs whilst OE training up in SEL. Can you elaborate further on your stealthy contacts or ways to get the nasties to ease off? It has been a terrible 5 months for him to be holed up there only to be subjected to the crap dished up on almost every training sortie. Many thanks.

[Frenk Boreman]

Yelena, please check your pm in a week. I think the main protagonist is in employ with KAL and I need to clear up a few things before I can give you further advice. Be cool.

[cediazf]

I got this new pearl. I could have written verbatim some of the statements myself. It's long but if you or someone you know is considering Korean Air, is worth reading. Things have not changed a bit.

All pilots: Re: Korean Air. Please forward this to your agencies as well as all other pilots on your email lists. My initial report to Korea Air is included in this email.



Dear Chairman CHO;

Thank you for your response. I respect your position and will not reply to you again unless you request it.

Forgive me for not knowing how to work within your “official channel”. I am not Korean. I am not familiar with the “Official Korean Air Channel” and will gladly submit this report according to your rules. If you are concerned about the future of Korean Air, please guide me.

I have submitted this report to many persons in the Korean Air Operations Department including T K Kang and Y D Lee and have not received a response. Therefore, I do not know if it reached your “official channel” or even if it reached the intended recipients. I am curious if these persons have informed you of my report. Are you aware of the problems?

Since I do not think you are receiving the truthful facts, I am only trying to make you aware that Korean Air is wasting a lot of money needlessly and is creating a very bad reputation with some of the world’s best pilots. I have received many, many, supportive emails and telephone calls regarding my report from other Korean Air pilots as well as from pilots at many other airlines from around the world. You can rest assured that in this “World Economy” news travels very fast, especially when I have thousands of email address. Professional pilots have an obligation to share their negative training experiences at other airlines in the interest of flight safety. Your airlines improper interpretation and application of Boeing procedures by substituting them with their own Korean Air “techniques” is NOT SAFE. As an example, you brought an Airbus representative to Incheon from Europe recently (in early 2008) to asses the destruction done to one of your Airbuses. I personally spoke that representative at Incheon. The cause was pilot error. The pilot did not apply the proper crosswind controls. His landing was so hard it destroyed the landing gear strut and wing spar. Luckily no one was killed. Crosswind controls is a basic and fundamental pilot skill. The lack of your pilot’s ability to recognize a crosswind in spite of what the ATIS said, is indicative of just one of the many shortfalls of your “training program”. It is also another good reason for hiring Foreign Captains with extensive flight experience to protect against loss of life and hull loss. As you know from past Korean Air history, accidents are very expensive. They will cause a loss of reputation and can bankrupt your company. One example of past bad press: Cho Yang-Ho, chairman and CEO, Korean Air - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/01/14/boardroom.yang-ho/index.html)

Additionally, poor treatment and unfair practices imposed by your airline upon the pilots is not forgotten. You should be VERY concerned, especially since you are Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Korean Air. It may be that your “official channels” are not telling you of these problems. They don’t want to loose their job. Since I have nothing to loose, I can tell you the truth.

As another example of your poor treatment, (see my report for other examples) Korean Air cheated me out of travel passes that were properly submitted during the term of my employment. A request for those passes was also sent to Korean Air by GAP Aviation. Your administration department refuses to issue them. I submitted my request for those passes in a timely manner during the term of my employment. I earned them. Please issue them.

If you don’t want to handle this yourself, maybe you could forward this to the “Official Korean Air Channel” for me. They will listen to you.

Very Sincerely,


From: CHO YANG HO [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 5:47 PM
To: (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)
Subject: RE: Korean Air/CASA conspiracy to keep the B-777 grounded

IF YOU ARE RIGHT,USE OFFICIAL CHANEL LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.


From: (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 12:11 AM
To: DDY
Subject: Korean Air/CASA conspiracy to keep the B-777 grounded

I tried to see you personally but you were busy. I spoke with the gentleman in the first office on the left in the Executive Offices on March 27, 2008. If you have not seen this, you need to. They are intentionally trying to stop you from flying the B-777 with foreign captains.


Date: April 18, 2008

Subject: CORRUPTION INVOLVING B-777 ‘TRAINING’ by a CASA GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL and/or KOREAN AIR.

To: President of Korean Air

This report is submitted to inform you of the corruption involving B-777 ‘training’ by Korean Air and/or a CASA government official. Please advise all B-777 pilot applicants to Korean Air that they have a very poor chance of passing a Korean Air check ride causing a blemish on their professional record.




Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class.

As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:
There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007 B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains. Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the class previous to ours didn’t succeed in making it through their check rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resumes. That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away your time and money. I have no doubt that they will simply say ‘[we] were not qualified’ and/or did not live up to Korean Air Standards or didn’t follow the POM/FOM. It is not true! Do not believe it. Here is why:

My credentials: I passed the Korean Air Law Test, the Korean Air Oral Exam, the Korean Air simulator check ride, the Korean Air ETOPS check ride, the recommendation ride and the CASA oral exam. I have never failed a check ride in 34 years of flying. I starting flying Gliders in 1974 and was flying C-130’s in the U.S. Air Force by 1976. I have flown for 34 years without accidents, incidents or any violations. I have received awards for flight safety including the Delta Air Lines 2005 Safety Award. I have been an instructor with thousands of hours of instructor time and I have been a Line Check Pilot. I have more than 15,000 hours of total flying experience. I have FAA ratings on the B-777; B-767; B-757; MD88; and L-382 (C-130). I am a graduate of one of the hardest academic schools in the world, the United States Air Force Academy. I was employed at Delta Air Lines, Inc. for over 21 years and have flown as Captain for 16 years (including Air Force).

New Hire Status: When Korean Air offered me a conditional job based upon obtaining the B-777 rating at my own expense, I paid for and received the B-777 rating from Boeing / Alteon in Seattle, Washington, USA. I passed all oral examinations and rating rides in the simulator at Boeing/Alteon in Seattle, Washington. Although it was a new type rating, I was highly qualified and have been a Captain on the B-767/ 757 for eight years and have over 7,000 hours of PIC time at Delta (much more if you include Air Force time). I started ground school class with Korean Air in Seoul, Korea on December 3, 2007 and started my Operational Experience (OE) training on February 11th 2008.

“No Notes” and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8 trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn’t understand him. It could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite line was “Do you understand!!?” in a booming voice. No, I didn’t understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn’t believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years! Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for frequencies, PA’s etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and flown with at Korean Air has told me they used their notes to learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34 years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while flying. The absurdity of his ‘no notes’ concept is - if they wanted us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the ‘Airport Analysis Charts’ in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change. It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to the ‘losing face’ issue). That difficult choice was only made after a lot of consultation.

Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting training class at Korean Air in order to assist them in getting a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new instructor ‘inspired’ constant changes to the techniques and “the script”. Even on my check ride.



The Final Check Ride:
I received my CASA Check ride by CASA Captain Hwang Sa Sik. He is a former senior Korean Air Captain.

Captain Choi Mu Yeol was the LCP in the right seat acting as First officer who was worried for his job. He did not support me throughout the flight or in the debriefing because he would certainly fail his next check ride if he spoke on my behalf. He therefore remained silent while CASA Captain Hwang talked. He apologized to me for not supporting me after CASA Hwang departed.

I contend that my check ride result was predetermined long before I left the ground. It was a hoax and a farce. The results had nothing to do with my performance. CASA Captain Hwang lied about the events. He fabricated the reasons for failing me on my check ride which I will discuss later in this report. As far as I am concerned I passed in every department. I have never failed a check ride in my life and this was no exception. I admit there were a few debriefing items (because it is impossible to do all Korean techniques), but absolutely nothing was unsafe and my landings we picture perfect smooth landings with cross winds. It is obvious that Captain Hwang, SA-SIK – a CASA government official, is intentionally failing foreign B-777 pilots on their check rides. He either has a personal agenda or is being instructed to fail us by someone at Korean Air. I think he is failing foreign pilots because he was a former Korean Air Captain himself. He either has a ‘bone to pick’ with Korean Air due to possible forced early retirement or is helping his union pilot friends at Korean Air by keeping the B-777’s grounded without foreign captains to fly them. Maybe he is just trying to ensure Korean Captains upgrade faster than Foreign Captains. I don’t know which answer is correct, but I would bet my career on the fact that the failure rate of domestic Korean Captains is nowhere close to the dismal failure rate of foreign Captains. I think Captain Hwang is intentionally countering the Korean Air’s President Jong-Hee Lee’s push to hire more foreign Captains. His dishonorable actions are both personal and political and foreign Captains are being caught in the middle as victims who spent precious time and money pursuing an unachievable dream with potentially dire consequences to their professional reputation. The check ride was a hoax and a farce. Korean Air is lending credibility to this farce by terminating the employment of the foreign Captains after not passing the CASA check ride. This treatment of Foreign Captains does not appear to be happening as often on any other fleet. Everyone else (in my class) on all EXCEPT the B-777 has passed their check ride – (They probably had other CASA officials as the check pilot).

Additional details of the check ride:
Prior to the check ride I had not been given any time for route study since my oral was less than 24 hours prior to flight. After passing my oral with a high score, CASA Capt Hwang requested my log book. He expressed that he wanted to confirm my hours. I told him I did not have my pilot log book in Korea (except for the Korean Air log book I had started) and offered to give him a letter the following day from Delta Air Lines, my former employer, which gave a break down of my flight time.

On the morning of my check ride I showed up 3 hours prior to push back time for route study. Captain Choi, the LCP, showed up VERY late and did not even know a check ride had been scheduled. I was frantic and only had 15 minutes to brief him before going to the aircraft for the ‘Joint Briefing’.

CASA Capt Hwang met us at the aircraft and requested my OE training record upon arrival. I also presented him with the copy of the letter from Delta Air Lines. (Early into the flight to Hong Kong, he actually took my OE training record from me and then proceeded to reference the FOM as he started writing. Apparently he needed help from the FOM and my OE training record in developing his reasons for failing me. It was too early in the check ride to start writing because at that point, nothing had happened.) It would be impossible for anyone to maintain an objective and neutral opinion after reading anyone’s OE training record. He is human and would become biased to look for past weaknesses - even if he saw you do everything right on your check ride. This biased process would never be allowed in most ICAO nations.

At the end of a very long day, according to CASA Captain HWANG SA SIK, a previous 30 year Korean Air Captain, I failed my check ride. I do not accept his appraisal and am insulted by his masquerade of fairness. His business card has the audacity to display “Trust Builder” in its title. This CASA official lied and exaggerated events regarding many of the events of my flight. Because of this action he is corrupt and is involved in an unknown personal agenda. Why did he do this? Maybe he was forced to retire from Korean Air at an early age and this is a grudge. Maybe he is still sympathetic to the union activities at Korean Air. Since everyone else on all the other fleets passed their check ride, the results of the B-777 are too unusual and suspicious to ignore. Statistically, if the check ride was a fair and unbiased evaluation, it would be impossible that most Foreign Captains fail the check ride from the same CASA Hwang. Grounding the B-777’s because there are not enough pilots to fly them is a more likely scenario and certain to make a statement. CASA Hwang graded me on techniques that he insisted were procedures. I will go into the details later in this report. As you know, there are no more second chances after your Operational Experience (OE) 12 + 4 sectors. There are no more training rides given and since there is only one CASA pilot giving the check rides on this aircraft, chances of a successful recheck would be infinitesimally small. Based on Korean Air past practice, most pilots have been fired after failing the check ride and attending the obligatory/compulsory meeting. Excellent pilots have been cheated by CASA and KOREAN Air and sent home after 4 months of extremely hard work. Needless to say, I was angry at the result but not shocked! I knew the chances of success were slim based on the statistical results of the previous two B-777 classes. You shouldn’t expect to pass if statistically only one in your class will make the grade. However, I have never failed a check ride in my 30 years of flying and in my opinion; this should have been no exception. I will admit it wasn't perfect by Korea Air Standards, but, as all of you know from your own experience, how could it be? Many standards are an unknown moving target. For instance, have you seen check ride criteria from CASA? Does it exist? If it does exist, does it live up to the farcical written English standard of the CASA Korean Air Law test? Could it be read and understood by the person taking the check ride? No standards were briefed to me by CASA and he certainly did not live up to mine. The pilot world should know of this corruption before wasting their time and effort in Korea.

In the spirit of trying to do my best, I tried to brief endlessly and never stopped saying "check" in meaningless fashion. In the end it didn’t count because CASA says I failed and that is all that matters in Korea. There were no safety issues on my check ride, although according to CASA he tried very hard to create some by making up a story about me turning on the wrong taxi way in Hong Kong (although I wrote the instructions down and it was verbally verified correct by the LCP in the right seat). I’ve been taxing for 34 years and even if it did happen, (which it did not), it would have been a NON-EVENT. There were no other airplanes on the taxiway and we were not involved with crossing any runways or creating a traffic conflict. He CREATED the story to fail me. He created even more stories that night AFTER my debriefing was finished in order to solidify his position in his report - which was written in Korean. I have no doubt he would have created more if needed. He harassed me from the minute I got into the cockpit in Incheon airport with questions (I had taken the oral less than 24 hours earlier - the calendar day prior) and even on several occasions commanded that I take certain action during the flight which I can't find in any book anywhere. I have been surprised on every KAL flight with something new and different so I took it all in stride hoping that at the end of the day he would still be reasonable and I would become a Korean Air pilot. I maintained my composure and temperament until the end of the check ride debriefing following the two flights. At the end of the day I was mistaken. Reason and sanity did not prevail.

CASA Hwang intentionally and selectively neglected standard procedures. He had total disregard for cockpit security by freely opening and closing the cockpit door in flight without following the established procedures in the FOM. He did not follow the security procedures briefed by me during the Joint Briefing. He also said we didn't have to put on our oxygen masks when going to the bathroom even though we were at FL 360. He said we could eat at the same time (which I didn’t), anyway, you get the picture. He followed the rules HE wanted to follow and disregarded those that didn't suit him. He violated MANY Korean Air procedures….. and then he had the nerve to grade ME poorly.

He fabricated the facts - blatantly lied, and even added things to my check ride form after he left the room. OE Chief Pilot Captain Kang met with me two days later and read to me the new items. For instance, I couldn’t believe that CASA Hwang had added that I didn’t do one of the checklists. Absolutely incredible! He had not mentioned that to me on the day of the check ride. I know for a fact that I called for every checklist. (I did call for the climb checklist 1000’ too early passing transition altitude (9000’ and climbing at 2500’/min out of Hong Kong), but it was NOT forgotten. I guess he must have realized that there wasn’t enough bad stuff on the original evaluation to justify failing me so he just added some more lies. I couldn’t read the form since it was in Korean. It wouldn’t matter anyway. I asked both CASA Captain Hwang and OE Chief Pilot Captain Kang for the voice tapes from the aircraft (if available), and Hong Kong ground control. They refused.

CASA Hwang summed it up best in the debriefing following my check ride. After I had objected to his statements that had no basis of truth he said: "They are true! I am CASA". Spoken loudly as if he were GOD.

Regarding techniques taught as “procedures”: On my check ride I learned of even more techniques that were taught as “procedures”. These were procedures that I had never heard of from my FIVE previous Korean Air instructors.

FATIGUE: CASA required me to do the walk around and the cockpit FMC preparation with no time for rest. It was a 12 hour day with me doing everything. EVERYTHING. Every minute was consumed with updating the heading bug or some other ‘make work’ event. It was not a test of knowledge or your ability to fly an aircraft safely. It was an ENDURANCE test. I am 56 years old. It would have been nice to have been able to relax for a few minutes and collect my thoughts as they were doing. Both CASA and the LCP had a break. No one works as hard as I worked - even on an ocean crossing your maximum on duty time is much less than 12 straight hours. The LCP did nothing too help. He didn’t even start the APU at the gate as though they were trying to catch me unprepared for push back. (I caught the omission). I had to command everything. I thought Boeing had designed this aircraft as a two pilot aircraft. It was designed and built to require two qualified pilots with the same objective to fly it. Not just a captain trying to do everything by himself while the other one was trying to resist and create an environment for mistakes. That would be mutiny. Was he briefed to do this by CASA or does he do this on every check ride? The conditions being created were unrealistic, unsafe and unfair. I have never had a check ride like this in my life anywhere. The goal of a check ride should be to fly safely to your destination and assess the pilot’s ability while doing it. I have been an instructor and check airman for more than 3000 hours. I learned very early in my career that as an instructor you can easily create a situation which could cause a pilot to fail his check just by distracting him from the task at hand. This is exactly what CASA Hwang was doing. This check ride was the most bizarre sham I have ever been through. It was not a legitimate evaluation.

SUMMARY: I have never studied so hard in all my life and come up so short on anyone’s performance expectations. I DON’T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS FLYING THE AIRCRAFT. My problems stem from having to learn new techniques that are being taught as procedures just to satisfy every new instructor. They are techniques that have nothing to do with operating an aircraft safely. I tried very hard. I stayed in my room studying for 4 months straight trying to learn method # 1—49 wrong ways. I didn’t watch TV, or party. All I did was study and chair fly. After the unfairness of my check ride I can only arrive at one conclusion. CASA and the operations department is part of the problem. I am not. Myself and the rest of my class that are no longer at Korean Air tried our best to be part of the solution. From my perspective, and the perspective of many others, you are risking your professional reputation by accepting a position at Korean Air.


Misc Notes:
· As a Delta pilot for 22 years, Korean Air procedures bear very little resemblance to Delta Procedures. They are completely different. Even their FOM and POM bears little resemblance. For instance, Delta Pilots only repeat critical changes to FMA status such as “LOC capture”, “Land 3” etc. and otherwise maintain a quiet sterile cockpit concept below 10,000’. The constant Korean Air callouts of FMA changes and constant cockpit response chatter such as “check” are a distraction from flying. This breaches the quiet cockpit concept and causes missed radio calls and jeopardize safety. There is entirely too much cockpit chatter below 10,000. This is a very big problem at Korean Air and a safety issue. I can hardly hear ATC instructions over the F/O’s chant of FMA changes and my required responses of saying “check”. It is very distracting.
· Fatigue. I worked too hard being required to do everything (alone) for a 12 hour day.
· Techniques taught as procedure: (Example: constant update of the heading bug – even to one degree.) You can’t be expected to know techniques without training.
· There is severely inadequate training at Korean Air. English instructors are needed.
· Needless callouts for everything imaginable. “Check” is overused and meaningless.
· Endless briefings of questionable value.
· Constant, needless ATIS updates.
· Required to MEMORIZE the POM, FOM, when it says in those books that the only memory items should be Recall items and limitations.
· Requiring the Captain to do the F/O job of loading the FMC and loading it with much more than required by Boeing - and then do the walk around as well. Doing the Captains job as well as the first officer’s job – what is the point of this?
· Not abiding by FOM cockpit security rules and regulations.
· Not abiding by FOM oxygen requirements when one pilot leaves the cockpit.
· Not abiding by FOM avoiding eating at the same time requirements.
· Treating every waypoint as compulsory.
· Korean Air spent time trying to build loyalty to their company with the initial indoctrination program and then caused distrust and even anger with the way we were treated in OE. All foreign Captains can see what is happening to these pilots. Poor treatment by Korean Air treatment instills mistrust and disdain in their workforce.

Blue Skies and good luck

Captain (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)

[RV6]

An excellent description of what is STILL going on today.
The only comfort I can offer is: you failed to meet their standard. I'm proud of you that you could not stoop that low.

[BayBong]

Cediazf,

I read your issue between the lines. It is beyond training & skills.

If you have never been working outside of USA or 1st world countries, the local mind need to be deciphered prior to joining.

You are dealing with Korean military "heros" or local Koreans who may still remember the Koeran War with foreigners, specifically Americans, echoing a bad déjà vu memory. You may be faced with protectionist vs openess in a strong nationalistic spirit in the legacy American GIs leave behind them : http://askakorean.********.ca/2008/09/why-do-koreans-complain-about-us.html

Foreigners are never equal & will never be treated as equal nor fairly treated in Asia, whereas in "civilized countries" open to immigrants from around the globe, all would be treated on an equal footing in spite of uncovered unassumed ostracism xenophobia, unless openly racism.

Besides, your impressive resume may challenge them or intimidate many of the less experienced gentlemen who are driven to vicious self-defense. They may be intrigued with your skills and study you till the very end - to learn from you ? - instead of eliminating you right away.

Wish you could size the real dimension of a cheap testosterone war and shrugg it off. PM me if you want to discuss further. Best.

[cediazf]

Bay Bong. Thanks for the comment. I indeed also flew in south america and later with a taiwanese airline for 8 years all over the world. I found some of what you describe there but had nothing to do in my opinion with any war. There is just so much fear of losing face or allow anybody to look better than them. But to be fair, I found nice people in those cultures too. I met some of the regular korean and taiwanese pilots not involved in training who were really pleasant and nice. But some of these guys like in many places in addition with some of them not liking foreigners, once they get some power they feel like they are better than anyone. I also met other non flying staff there in korean and they were nice people. But the training department in korean air with the possible exception of the 747 where the failure rate is lower could be a living hell, especially during OE training. I just want others out there to be better informed than me and others were before making the decision.
Best wishes for you too

[cosmiccomet]

Guys, I would like to know why somebody flying in a well reputed company like Delta or LH, wants to fly for Korean Airlines:confused::confused::confused:
I can understand that from a pilot flying for a LCC or living in a country with economy and/or political problems.

[blues deville]

Too bad about the failure. The landing briefing is often given well before T/D due to a variety of reasons. Weather, traffic, ATC so it not unusual to complete it early. Too bad you were not aware of that information.

Any minor failure during the training process will put you under the magnifying glass and its hard to get out of that situation. Once instructors see this on your file, any future errors can get blown out of proportion.

Also the biggest issue is "will you fit in with the Korean crews". If they have determined you will not, every small mistake will be highlighted and its probably not going to end well.

Having been involved with hiring, training and supervising pilots at other airlines, I can see that this may have been part of your problem. Not your experience level or flying skills, but how you interacted with them. It's a huge part of the process at KAL and those who have made it through, for whatever reason, managed to demonstrate the required attitude. It's not right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

The up side is you still have a type rating with some hours on the aircraft.....shop yourself around and good luck.

bd

[Rients]

I went there and I think there's something seriously wrong with that company.

The (many, many) advertisements of KAL looks nice with great benefits right? How on earth is it possible that a company screws up that much that you're feeling a martyr for that money?

My opinion: the ego of the koreans (from instructors to the board). They are so incredibly reluctant to decrease the hierarchy between cpt & f/o that they have to increase checks/double checks/confirmations/double confirmations/long briefings to 'maintain' ICAO's level of safety. Because of their low safety level years ago ICAO made it mandatory that they hire more expats to increase CRM and therefore increase safety. So they are hiring more expats, but to keep them longer than their training (or max a few years)? No way! They don't want those noisy & assertive western people in their precious company.

And so you get that weird atmosphere that you don't bent or handshake first to your instructor, you DON'T refuse dinner in your 15min sim break, you laugh when he tells you to laugh and also... you only use the automation & managed guidance of the aircraft! Because they rather have a triple increase of their stresslevels when the automation fails, than disconnecting the AP above 1000' and using selected speed when there's no need... you just don't do that... EVER! If you do? They tell you: "Please go back to where you & your jetlag come from, ASAP!"

[blues deville]

It's sounds as though you didn't stay too long. Capt or FO?

[squarecrow]

It sounds worth avoiding

[AROUNDGO]

Interesting reading.
I am glad I din't send my application yet.

An other good question is: why have they been advertising every single day for over than 2 years?
Smells bad. Stay away.

[Tipsy Barossa]

Heard from mates still holed up in ICN that some guys actually had a pay cut or at the very best, a miserly increment based on the much acclaimed " pay rise ". Apparently all previous agreed to increments are now totally deducted with the current pay structure so much so that some guys who are with agencies which take a bigger cut ended up with an actual net pay reduction. Absolutely ludicruous to have your hard earned previous increments totally deducted!!! Only in KAL, kimchi crap!

[Molokai]

What? I read somewhere else that it was gonna be a substantial payrise of several thousand quids! Tricks and more tricks by KAL management; guys over there must be pretty sore. Hey, wth...vote with your feet!

[KAL__Aviator]

That's right, they had just helped those undetermined to make up their minds. Droves are coming to China, CSA is really desperate for drivers now.

[helimutt]

wonder if this ties in with the recent accident in usa

[Keylime]

I can't believe with all of the information that has been posted here the last 5-6 years about KAL that people still go there. The only reason to go there is if you don't have any other prospects. As a Captain you are, for the most part, single piloted most of the time. When you get into Western airspace where English is the native language the majority of first officers CANNOT handle the radios. They cannot fly an approach with any crosswinds or without an ILS glideslope. Even though it is against SOP's(as defined in the FOM) to fly and handle ATC communications, many times it is safer than trying to correct the constant communication mistakes by the Korean pilot monitoring who is supposedly ICAO Level 4 or better. IF KAL and Asiana had an HONEST language testing system less than 40% of the Korean pilots would pass the minimum required language testing. I have witnessed Korean F/O's talk to ATC and then translate the instructions to the Korean Captain in Hangul. Any foreigner who has flown over there is not surprised by the Asiana accident. The only surprise is that it did not happen sooner. Could just as easily have been KAL as Asiana.

[4Banger]

I have a class date scheduled with KAL as an FO on the 744. After reading this thread, I must admit that I am very anxious about going. I have heard that experiences as an FO can be quite horrific, but I have also heard about those who's experiences were more than pleasant.

People will ask me why I am even considering going after reading this thread. The answer is, quite honestly, because I have nowhere else to go. I am not marketable to other airlines that pay a decent salary.

People will tell me that I will be treated unfairly, ridiculed, and all but spat on by the Korean nationals. My response would be that I'm not too worried about that. I have flown with difficult Captains, I have a wife that can sometimes be a little irrationally demanding, and I was enlisted in a pretty tough branch of the military. I've got some thick skin and I am very familiar with the concept behind the term, "cooperate and graduate".

I have heard a lot about the 777 on this thread. I would really like for someone to chime in about the 744 training process. How are the instructors on that side of the house? What are some things that I need to look out for as an FO? I know that there are quite a few negative experiences out there, but if someone has something positive to say, it would definitely help out.

Thanks

[KAL__Aviator]

4Banger

You'll do fine with your mindset and background. Don't bother worry too much, plus, you're not their target.

Cut all the negatives and make do what you can, I'm sure you know the rules.

[SRS]

You will do fine 4 Banger. Attitude is the most important asset in Korean. When you start flying life can be pleasent and your commute is the best in the expat business.

Good luck

[cediazf]

4 Banger. As the pilot who started this thread, I did it with the main intention to warn those who were required to pay for their type to be admitted and also for others like you to know a little more on what to expect. Unfortunately I found out too late that they don't care on the sacrifice and effort some of us made to be there. It would have been easier and cheaper for them to give me 2 extra OE flights than just dismissing me especially when my record was virtually clean but I supposse it was not meant to be for me. I am still trying to get over it and I eventually will. I was recently hired as a Captain in another airline and things are finally moving forward for me. Having said that, the 747 fleet was one of the best training wise when I was there. The training stories were quite different than the ones from the 330 or the 777. If you are typed on the airplane I am not going to tell you that the training will be all pleasant but you will be in the least troubled fleet if things have not changed. If they have let's hope it's for the best. So, go for it, prepare yourself as much as you can once you are there. Don't sweat it too much right now. Like I said before, once you pass, life is good there and not everyone is bad, like everywhere else there are nice and not so nice guys. They have some really nice people too as you will realize. Also when you go with the type OE is shorter. Go with a positive mind. Best of luck.

[54fighting]

Cediazf,

Thank God you finally got a job. Where at ?
Getting tired with your sad tale. Before your record was perfect. Then it
was missing a parking spot, missing callouts, struggling with the standard
landing briefing.
Now it's your "virtually clean" record, and you should have received 2 extra
OE legs.
How about you piss off, and concentrate on your new job.
Hope the briefings are brief.

[cediazf]

54fighting. If you are tired of what I write here there is an easy solution; don't read it. And yes, where I am now the briefings are long when they need to be and short when they don't with no nonsense. I will leave your unsensitive soul wondering where at. You already speak like them, as if you and them are perfect. Glad did not get to meet you either. Enjoy the Kimchi.

[proud]

Cediazf,
I have read all of your posts regarding KAL and want to say thank you. I found them honest and well written. I am happy that you found a job and I am sure you will add value to the company you are now with. I was about to send my application to KAL for the non type rated B777 but you have given me a lot to consider and I think that was the intent of your posts all along-so thank you! Lastly, I would like to say that I hope you have ignored the hateful, insensitive and aloof words of some of the respondents to your posts. Their posts only serve to prove that there is never a shortage of jerks. I am glad that neither you or I will ever have to wear the same uniform as these individuals. Wishing you all the best and thanking you once again for being a part of the best thing that never happened to me.

[Iver]

Will the 744 FOs also fly the 747-800 (pax and cargo) or are those considered distinct fleets? I would think being dual-qualified would make sense for efficiency but you never know...

[Ace Springbok]

I have read all of your posts regarding KAL and want to say thank you. I found them honest and well written. I am happy that you found a job and I am sure you will add value to the company you are now with. I was about to send my application to KAL for the non type rated B777 but you have given me a lot to consider and I think that was the intent of your posts all along-so thank you! Lastly, I would like to say that I hope you have ignored the hateful, insensitive and aloof words of some of the respondents to your posts. Their posts only serve to prove that there is never a shortage of jerks. I am glad that neither you or I will ever have to wear the same uniform as these individuals. Wishing you all the best and thanking you once again for being a part of the best thing that never happened to me.

There are lots of riff raffs with parker penned hours who somehow ( not that difficult if you know how to con the Korean hilly billies, especially if you have
some buddies embedded there ) made it through the hoops in KAL and now
think they are in the super big league. They will fight tooth and nail to convince new suckers that they are super skygods who made it through the toughest training and guys like Cediazf just couldn't make it. They will sing praises for KAL luring wannabes there hoping tat sheer expat numbers can get them somewhere someday. Typical scums from the bottom of the barrel who make life for the original KAL expats utterly exasperating.

Well I heard CSA is currently making a recruitment drive in that area of the woods with good salary packages and neat options. Go for it guys and make the best of it.

[cediazf]

Thank you Proud. It was encouraging and refreshing to read your post. Feeling appreciated where I am now. Corrections and recommendations during training and OE and then debriefing as in every normal airline and at the end, praised by the check airman on my checkride. What a difference. Enjoying now flying the line as a wide body Captain throughout three continents.
If my posts helped you avoid a bitter experience, I am glad.
As you rightfully said, that was the only intention.
All the best.

[4Banger]

Thanks cediazf and all others for the reply. I'm going to go make the best I can of this situation. I'm happy to hear that you have found employment elsewhere. It's tough out there for sure. Hopefully I will have some positive notes to add to this thread in the near future.

[Mullerp56]

hello there,
do you have some knowledge regarding the 737 F/o situation in KAL?
How is it to work there as aFO?
thanks,

[Mullerp56]

hello there,
do you have some knowledge regarding the 737 F/o situation in KAL?
How is it to work there as aFO?
thanks,

[Mullerp56]

hello there,
do you have some knowledge regarding the 737 F/o situation in KAL?
How is it to work there as aFO?
thanks,

[cediazf]

Mullerp56.
As a 737 FO you will be flying with young local Captains most of who I heard were nice as well as with more experienced ex-pats. I know 3 guys who fly (one of them I should say flew)there as FO in the 737. Training got tough at some point like for everybody else, again depending on the instructor you have but at the end they all made it . One left for the middle east after a short period of time. The other 2 as far as I know are still flying there. As I said, life is better once you pass the training and are flying the line. Routes are within south Korea and other places in Asia like China, Japan and as far as Bangkok. Communting contract is the same as for the other fleets. Training is around 3 months. Like I said before, once you finish training is not a bad place to work. Best of luck.

[Geebz]

54fighting... why do you have to act like such a dick?

If you were my FO, I'd put you in your place. If I was your FO, I'd remind you how difficult a day it can be when your partner choses not to get along with you. IOW, you don't appear to be anyone enjoyable to fly with.

So the guy missed a few things in training, who doesn't? I spent 6 years in the training department as an examiner. Those types of items he mentioned are but mere de-brief items. Aviation is not perfect. We all make mistakes. Your job on the line is: 1) to identify the problem, 2) Rectify and resolve it, 3) Move on. As an examiner, I am interested whether the guy can do a solid v1 cut, follow SOPs, fly a good visual, and make command decisions. As a Captain, I am interested in FOs who speak up if and when either of us make a mistake so that we can resolve the issue and keep flying the jet as close to SOP as possible.

If you expect perfection, you will spend so much time micro-managing everything that you'll lose sight of the big picture. The result? Asiana-type accidents.

KA and other Asian airlines are known for their "make-work" programs in the cockpit that add to the minutia of the job. By creating such a busy-work environment, you force guys to tune out. Do you really think anyone is listening to a 5-10 minute "brief" about the approach and landing? It's called a "brief" for a reason. I fly primarily throughout Asia and it becomes painfully obvious what's happening in the cockpit when a Asian carrier gets on freq. I listened to a guy tie up HF for 10 minutes yesterday to take down the details of a sigmet. Are you kidding me? Couldn't he just have asked his dispatcher for that info over ACARS? He's already in flight, moving through the air at 600 mph. He has a Wx radar. Jotting down the finer points of the sigmet isn't going to change the outcome of his flight at that stage (he likely had the info in his flight papers before he left anyway).

KA has been been in a perpetual state of hiring for as long as I can remember. Their training deficiencies as an organization are well-documented here and on other boards. Cediazf took the time to come on here and warn other pilots of the continual training issues at KA. As a line pilot yourself, you should be thankful for that. Afterall, it serves to further slow the number of applicants to your airline, which thereby solidifies your pay and stature (supply vs demand... no supply of new recruits, insures demand for your services will continue indefinitely).

I know some pilots at KA are happy. I have a few buddies there that like it. But just the same, the training environment and the anti-expat stance by Korean Nationals is also well-known. Both they and instructor colleagues I know at KA have told me the same. So don't come on here and trash a guy who takes the time to give the group a detailed report of what's still going on.

I was hired by KA back in 2008 when I took a leave from my airline. I'm glad I didn't go after all I read and heard (on here and elsewhere). I instead went to fly for an Indian carrier. I don't think I could thrive in or tolerate an environment such as KA. Some of you can. Good for you. But don't be so harsh on those of us who call it like we see it. Sheesh.

[spoton]

Spoton Geebz

[klunk49]

Amen, Same in Japan. It helps if you were beaten as a child.:ok:

[777AV8R]

I joined KAL in 2000 as a DEC on 777. The training was harsh and we'd all heard how bad it was. It was either 'roll with it' or go looking elsewhere. Many of us were determined to make it work, and most of us did.

We had to endure the endless useless training that the LCPs provided. I had experience on the airplane and knew that what they were trying to teach was nothing but drivel.

Having worked as an expat-contract pilot for a few years previous, one became a survivalist. Do the flying the way that the LCP wanted during training and then go fly safe for the rest of the year. For those of us who accepted the way things as presented, we were all successful.

In the end, word 'got around'. We treated the Co-pilots as real people and as a result, most of them were a joy to fly with. In fact, many of the guys would tell us how much they enjoyed working with us.

I'm not the only one who was fortunate. The only reason that I left was because of tax reasons, otherwise, I'd probably still be there. I was respected by those with whom I flew. There are still many guys from my cadré still working there. They are successful commanders.

Those who come from legacy carriers have found it difficult to cross over. Life as an expat contract pilot is different. There are no 'safety nets' to catch you. Its a lot of work to be a contract pilot. Everyday presents a new set of problems. Contract pilots are not liked by the 'locals' because we are seen as taking their job. Understandably so. It is no different anywhere in the world. Korea, Middle East or Asia. However; they do need the expertise.

Its how the contract pilot approaches the task at hand. Survive the training. Take that wire bound notebook and write the LCPs drivel. Tell him that he just informed you of some of the best information that you've ever been taught. Play to his ego and culture. Its the way that it is.

Get through the check ride. NEVER ask a question. If you do that...you're done! If you have to ask a question during a check its taken as 'you don't know'. Automatic failure.

Many of us guys had a good time there. I always measure a company's success not by its pilots but by its maintenance record. You will find that Korean Air's track record as being stellar. P & W, who supply the engines for all but the new 777s there have stated that Korean is 'the Gold Standard' when it comes to maintenance. They come to KAL and ask questions and get answers. The aircraft are in beautiful shape.

Just my side of the equation. Its all in the approach.

Happy flying.

[pltemrah]

Hi all,
I read (almost) all the posts written before. I fly in a European airline (all 737 NGs) as a commander. It is my first company (started as FO and now a Commander roughly 6000 hours total) so changing it looks like a BIG step.
However i read all the issues still i have little info about 737 fleet (and no interest in changing the type, the smaller the better so happy ith 737) and i really want an asian airline as all my family lives in that part of the world.
So if you could give me anykind of info about the 737 fleet it would really help a lot...
and i heard alot about agencies but i really don't know which one to use for application.
thanks,

[KAL Foreign Crew]

I do share your predicaments during OE and I do feel too that perhaps, you have not been well briefed or rather appropriately briefed on the OE and its expectation.
Like previously, it is paramount that one gets the proper view and preparation from the correct source rather than from the negative-iris!
Some ladies made it through on the B737 and now they are on the B744. It is preparations and never luck!
I am almost into my second decade and have assisted many, getting through their OE.
I do wish all the best, Sir!!!:)

[kinteafrokunta]

2nd decade? Wow, the semi-digested kimchi must be good. Cho sumnida!

[Alphatangotango]

That is the most objective review I have read on this thread, I think your philosophy is practical and gets you where you want to be. Real words of wisdom.:D

[changer]

Been with KE for 5 years now. 777AV8R pretty much nailed it.

Tried the kimchi once during initial training; that was enough for me... Nothing but the Western meals for me since then!

[777AV8R]

Tried the kimchi once during initial training; that was enough for me... Nothing but the Western meals for me since then!
ROFL! Neither did I. I was up for it when I went for my entry medical, and that was the last! Good gawd.

[King on a Wing]

I know of a skipper who was reported on landing by his 'local' FO for stealing forty winks (officially called a power nap), whilst in mid cruise with low low workload.
His report was accompanied with diligently and appropriately positioned iphone pics of the skipper in slumber.
What can you say to that?

[ABusboy]

We'll make sure the f/o get a kip also..a pic that!offer it to him first,
If he is some ex AF w..ker that thinks he's so tough he doesn't need a kip then ...
Houston we have a problem...

[whitepimp]

Hello fellas,

I am new to posting on here..Ive read most of the posts here and there all very informative however you want to look at it so thank you all for the effort.

Has anybody actually got some solid info on the A320 upgrade to A330 personal experiences during training etc I would love to PM if they do as im thinking about a long stint up there...777avr has given me that spark to enquire at the least...

whitepimp:p

[777AV8R]

Hi. Sorry, I've been a way from there for a while so am not sure of the upgrade program. It might be a good question to ask the contracting agency you are thinking of using. CCL is good. (I'm not getting paid by them to say that, either). The 'R-word' outifit is of no use.

[whitepimp]

Thanks for the reply 777av8r and agency advice, ive been busy aswell. I will look into the ccl. By the way do you get some time off in Korea whilst upthere?

Cheers

[Keelhaul]

777AV8R, you seem to have a good view of things at KAL, I'm really on the fence about submitting an app. I'm concerned about several things:

Firstly, I don't want to submit an app until committed to see it through. I'm assuming that backing out during the process would reflect poorly on me, reducing my chances later if I were to re-apply. do you believe that to be a reasonable assumption?

Secondly, I would like to ask how many days at home is normal for those on the west coast. I noticed your location is BC, I'm down in Seattle, so maybe similar enough to get a locals perspective.

I'm not concerned about their policies and procedures. I've flown with quite a few KAL engineers during my short 747 classic days, they were quite easy to get along with. Cooperate, graduate, fly the jet the way they want you to, say what they want you to say, collect your pay and go home. easy!

Lastly, How are the trips assigned? I live in Seattle, so it would be nice to have those overnights. Any chance in h3!! of that?

Others, please feel free to chime in, I'm open to advice from one and all.

Thanks for your help

Keelhaul

[pandazoo]

Some good info here, cheers. Would be great to here from anyone who is commuting on the A330 contract, skipper or FO.

Any current information about life at KAL, the commute, roster pattern usual things.

[ABusboy]

Its been done to death on here..go to the screening ,meet some guys in the bars around the hotel and talk to your agent and get some contacts from them..
Good gig if you can be away from home 2-3 weeks a month and live on 12k USD a month.assuming also you can do 3-4 months of training in Seoul and get through..chances will be less if you dont have 330 time,"Asian" experience and some long haul exposure.

[Count von Altibar]

I believe they've just been doing a few roadshows in the UK to woo Monarch pilots potentially facing redundancy.

[krustykrust]

I had heard a lot of bad raps about Korean air.

How about Asiana?

Does anybody know about the situation there?

[NoN1]

A lot has been said, but it's old now. Any up to date info on pass rates, training experiences etc? Have they improved in the last year or two? I'm looking at the A330...

[streetguy]

as they say , same culture different uniform.....only Asiana's uniform looks more ugly

[Kapitanleutnant]

Ya, but the KAL Cabin Crew look rather nice in their powder blue snug fitting uniforms (the female CC, that is :-)

Have enjoyed a few sits in hotel lobbies around Asia as they either came in or were checking out. My colleagues and I delayed our departure by a few minutes to "observe"…. best I recall!

K

[The Dominican]

Ya, but the KAL Cabin Crew look rather nice in their powder blue snug fitting uniforms (the female CC, that is :-)

Have enjoyed a few sits in hotel lobbies around Asia as they either came in or were checking out. My colleagues and I delayed our departure by a few minutes to "observe"…. best I recall!

K


True statement...., but nothing beats Singapore Airlines, that is one crew that I don't mind one bit getting stuck behind in immigration:ok:

[cosmiccomet]

Dear Dominican,
I think that you have been flying too long at the other side.
You should have the chance to be at the inmigration line in Ezeiza behind a LAN Argentina crew...:cool::cool::cool:

[7Q Off]

I agree LAN Argentina have some of the best looking girls around but I agree with the dominican, nothing beats getting stuck behind singapore airlines CC ..... :E

[USMCProbe]

I vote for Asiana and Thai Air Asia CC.

[HiAltFlyer]

They sure know how to take the fun out of flying.

[Fletch]

Keen to find out more about life as a B737 FO at Korean. Obviously the restriction of getting upgraded to Captain is a big downside of the job, but the agencies do advertise that there is the potential to swap to the Jumbo after a few years.


Any info as to whether this happens, what the likelihood of the command upgrade restriction getting changed, schedules, washout rates, nightstops, etc basically an up to date summation of the role in general would be very much appreciated.


I know this job isn't for everyone but the commuting aspect looks appealing.


Many thanks

[The Dominican]

If it is a comfortable commute and eventual upgrade you are looking for (granted on the venerable 76) Air Japan would be a better deal

[Fletch]

Dominican, many thanks.


I sure will as the Air Japan job looks like on of the best all-round commuting jobs going. I'm on the 737 at the moment.


Out of interest what's the mix of day flying vs night flying vs freight at Air Japan?

[The Dominican]

It just varies so much that I wouldn't be doing you a favor by telling you what I get rostered because it will look very different than what other people get.
What I can tell you is that they have done a good job at getting the fatigue lowered with much better parings than we were getting just a couple of years back (it was bad) of course I'm not saying that it is not a fatiguing job, whenever you mix a commute of several time zones plus changes from day to night flights, fatigue will always be an issue, it is just more manageable now.

But as a ballpark figure....., you will be doing a mix of about 60-70% cargo and the rest pax. Night vs Day? That varies so much and depends if you get more cargo in the mix since most cargo duties are at night. Average is about 60 hours a month, sometimes the F/O's tend to fly more but unlikely that you will get overtime pass 70 hours..., they try to keep everybody bellow the min guaranteed.

[The Dominican]

If your skin is thick..., and you can identify a bitter asshole when you read...! Then I invite you to read a long standing thread about AJX from a year back until now..., lots of info and the biggest bunch of whining babies in pprune.:ugh:

[StinkyMonkey]

To be completely honest, if you join Korean as an FO, the worst case scenario is that you will like the job.
I'm being serious, because unless you want to finish your career as an FO you will have to leave KAL at some point to get command somewhere else.
You put very few hours in the logbook on the 737 fleet.
Also, the transition to widebody is not a good move as you will be bonded.
The FO gig only makes sense for furloughed and unemployed pilots imho.

SM

[Fletch]

Dom & SM thank you. Very much appreciated.


The upgrade policy at Korean makes it a non starter I think, which is a shame as the other parts of the contract are actually quite appealing.


Having read the Air Japan info, the folks there seem happy (well as happy as you're going to get a pilot group!) so shall pop an application into Crew or Parc.

[7Q Off]

Any info about the 737 fleet for captains? Is training as bad as on widebody fleets? Rosters?

:ok::ok:

[airbus_indigo]

please advice a honest advice regarding joining Korean air.....as f/o 330 negative and positives and joing training and general stuff .please

[Roaming_pilot]

Please advice regarding the 330 for option in Korean please.

[WingsAir]

hey guys just wanted to get some info on the medical at Korean air, is it true that you have to have perfect vision? and that lasik eye corrections is not accepted? I also heard from Korean pilots that you basically have to be flawless (i.e. without any scars, no health problems etc). any info on the medical for Korean air would help. Cheers

[Team America]

Anyone care to share any details on the medical? Is it anything like the ANA medical checks which I believe are similar to NASA!

[Roaming_pilot]

Checks are as they do not want a pilot but a astronaut .

[aomfac]

Hi there
Would a present Korean B777 Captain (preferably commuting from Europe) please be kind enough to PM me few personal monthly rosters in order to get an accurate idea of what to expect.
Any other real and concrete knowledge outside of the agencies information's packages will be much appreciated.
I just need the facts... for the moans I have everything I need on PPRuNe.
Thank you very much.
Fly safe.:)

[ThunderLizard]

If you're highly social, Korean Air may not be for you. No arguing, the KAL cabin crew are sleek, but I've seen Korean crews here and there around the globe and have never seen one even talking with a pilot, let alone sit down and have breakfast together. Might be a bit of a better fit if you're a loner type

[jetjockey696]

I think is all the same for Asian crew.. KAL, China, Hong kong (CX, HKA etc), Japan Air. Never mingle with flight crew, what I see if you want to interact with crew, you need to be on there mobile phone, wechat, whatapp etc.

South East Asia crew, are generally more interactive, lot more friendlier, I think it the culture.

[Fratemate]

No such problem in AJX......if you wish to :ok:

[SkullFlyer]

Hi there
Would a present Korean B777 Captain (preferably commuting from Europe) please be kind enough to PM me few personal monthly rosters in order to get an accurate idea of what to expect.
Any other real and concrete knowledge outside of the agencies information's packages will be much appreciated.
I just need the facts... for the moans I have everything I need on PPRuNe.
Thank you very much.
Fly safe.:)

I would like that too. Possible to PM me as well ?

[Captain Dart]

You get on well with Cathay cabin crew if you like 'Hello Kitty', slurping noodles, and walking around convenience stores buying packets of dried crap. And don't forget to converse with them like you would a twelve year old.

[The Dominican]

The not "mingling" with the cabin crew is actually an advantage....! All these countries have a female population that is more than willing to mingle with you that it is not connected to the Borg collective of the company so Why bother?

Not saying that they like to gossip......, just want to point out that they have a very effective system of gathering and distribution of information and that the cabin attendants are usually the best source of intelligence gathering of the company......, the least they know about your personal business the better!

Specially those that seem a little more "westernized" and that tend to make fun of their anal retentive Asian ways...., those are the first ones that will transfer everything you say back to some head honcho....!

[oceancrosser69]

Hi!
Just send my a PM with your Email adress, I can send you some rosters of the 777 here at KAL. I am with KAL on the 777 since almost 7 years, commuting to Europe.
Cheers


Hi there
Would a present Korean B777 Captain (preferably commuting from Europe) please be kind enough to PM me few personal monthly rosters in order to get an accurate idea of what to expect.
Any other real and concrete knowledge outside of the agencies information's packages will be much appreciated.
I just need the facts... for the moans I have everything I need on PPRuNe.
Thank you very much.
Fly safe.:)

[PayJay]

Considering Korean 737 captain for a while. Anybody got some info for me?
Toughness on the medical?
Schedules?( two weeks on two weeks off, what do you do during the two weeks on? Nightstops/ Layovers?)
Training while having a type rating?
Thanks guys...

[avoka]

Hi guys
Has anybody here had any experience dealing with FCI ?
Please PM me
safe flights

[PayJay]

......? No body at Korean who can tell a littlebit about flying a 737 over there? ( schedules? Lay-overs? Etcetc.)
Pm is ok..
Thanks ahead.

[REB737]

I went through screening of KAL about 2 years ago for B737 DEC position. I passed all the tests, simulator, interview, etc. but failed due to medical. I didn't get any detailed explanation except I don't meet their medical standards and it was not something that can be corrected. I passed 2 medicals in my own country two times without a problem after that. I have to use supplementary medicine since the removal of my half-thyroid about 4 years ego and in my last medical the doctor saw something suspicious with my heart activity and did detailed testing which turned out to be OK at the end. After couple of trials I finally got information from KAL that it was my heart condition and hormone levels (due to thyroid removal I think) that didn't match their standards. So, I agree, their standards are higher than normally required.

[7Q Off]

anyone flying 737 there?

[aceman18]

Hi guys,
Don't suppose anyone is flying the A380 out there who can PM me a sample roster? Thanks in advance.

[7Q Off]

any expat on the 737 fleet? is there any chance for an upgrade to widbody after some time?

[fatbus]

Same same for me , many thanks!!!

[Ben_Al_Katre_]

Hi there

I've just read the 134 plus post on this thread regarding KAL. Can anyone shed some info as how is the current situation at KAL, especially how it is for the 777 DEC candidates? (most of the horrible comments are from 2007 / 2008). Has anything changed since 2007? I have my assessment in May but to be perfectly honest, I feel quite skeptical now with regards to KAL. Also, any info regarding CCL? Any fresh info is highly appreciated. Regards

[HighSpeedAluminum]

Unable to PM you.

[RemoveB4Flght]

High Speed Aluminum,

I have exactly the same question as Ben for exactly the same reasons, feel free to PM me as well with 777 info

[repulo]

High speed Aluminium

Would appreciate the info as well, if you could PM me.

Thanks

Repulo

[YFloyd]

any expat on the 737 fleet? is there any chance for an upgrade to widbody after some time?

A KAL friend told me that there were going to significantly reduce their 737 fleet this year. Is this correct?

[Upshitscreek]

Hi there

I've just read the 134 plus post on this thread regarding KAL. Can anyone shed some info as how is the current situation at KAL, especially how it is for the 777 DEC candidates? (most of the horrible comments are from 2007 / 2008). Has anything changed since 2007? I have my assessment in May but to be perfectly honest, I feel quite skeptical now with regards to KAL. Also, any info regarding CCL? Any fresh info is highly appreciated. Regards

No it has not changed since 2008 , young guys came into the system but its still the same problem ,, Its cultural .. Culture of fear and punishment . Many guys joined now from a respectable airline with tons of B777 hrs and the training in some cases took 6 months and they guys did not fail anything.. In that 6 months you loose 12 days of leave for the year and sick days and lots of money .. Plus not allowed to go home , stuck in this horrible hotel for days at end.. and they dont care ..
Be careful of the days off they advertise , now again short of pilots ... the contract says 6 hard days and 3 soft days , so now they are super short and only give 6 days off.
The time that you are here you fly everyday .. it can be more then 90 hrs as its factored hrs and you can then still add the travelling time to and from home .
Most expat guys here have applications in somewhere else .. not worth the effort .. This airline do not deserve your experience .. they cannot understand that they get good guys and then they leave :ugh::ugh::ugh:
1996 the pay was 600 usd less then now for a Captain ... as i said the pay is not worth the effort.

[Ben_Al_Katre_]

Thanks for the info. Certainly I felt something was not right with KAL and CCL. Just withdrew my application. Thanks guys for the heads up.

[flaphandlemover]

Gents, how is the situation right now... any improvement?

[ThunderLizard]

What happened to the A380 DEC job? Don't see it on Rish or CCL lately.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Folks ,

i would not withdraw my application purley for what’s being said on PPRuNe. Go for the interview and selection process ....Once you have the Offer of Employment you can then make your decision.

[The Turtle]

Yes you should check it out. However I would recommend when you interview ask about the "license verification check" you are required to do after your second week of joining.

it's a pc verification that you really are who you say you are. No warm-up, you are likely paired with your partner, checked by a Korean TRE.

I haven't heard of anyone who has failed, but what if you do? Interesting to see what KAL response is.