Boat Airdrop VX273

[dragartist]

VX 273 quoted the following on the A400M MPA thread. did not want to encourage that thread to drift:

I remember the look on the faces on the US Navy SEALS when they came to look at it. They had spent a huge amount of dollars and still didn't have a workable system, only to be shown the UK's latest boat platform which I told them was a replacement for a smaller one that had been in service for several years.

If the PT is reading this, I'm still waiting for the commision for that sale.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

I did not realise we [UK] had the means to drop boats from the C17. Interested to know why you feel the PT owe you any commision.
If I have done my google right It would appear that the Norges have bought the capability form a US Company with offices in Wales.

Interested to know what we can do in Defence of the Realm, if it is not classified.

Drag

[JFZ90]

I'd be interested to know more about the history of puribad, but apart from current marketing data there is not too much info on the net.

I understand the welsh company you refer to was GQ parachutes which was/is a bit of a world player in its own right before merging with irvin to become airborne systems. It maybe selling them a bit short to say they are 'just a uk office of a us company'

I'd be interested to know who pioneered puribad - uk or us - it seems the system is about 20 years old.

PS I didn't think UK C17 was cleared for any airdrop (unlike USAF).

[dragartist]

Sorry 275. I am Dick Slexick!

JFZ90, I think 275 has all the answers since he/or she appears to have such credibility with the US Navy Seals.

Did a google on PURIBAD that produced a NATO paper by a Colonel Potter. the picture showing PURIBAD looks a tight fit. according to the text it weighs over 5 tons and they can do two controlled by the pilot.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA476374

An outfit called JADTEU are implicated. PURIBAD is also referenced on their web page with lots of other interesting stuff. Including A400M (should I have left this on that thread?)

https://www.gov.uk/joint-air-delivery-test-and-evaluation-unit

I am sure there will be some C130 guys on here who know all about it, but it may be one of those classified programmes that if the Government found out about they may cut.

[VX275]

PRIBAD was originally developed and built by A&AEE Boscombe Down from a request from the MOD whith the design later being handed over to a company called AML for production. It was far from perfect as it used parts from scrap Martin Baker ejection seats and had other parts made from One Ton baseboards (plywood) which made sinking them problamatic and resulted in adding so many sandbags that handling became difficult. PURIBAD was the replacement designed by AML that got around the mis-use of MB parts and had components that could be easilly handled but naturally sank to which lightweight floatation could be added for recovery during training. The larger RIB were indeed a tight fit in the Herc and the collar had to be deflated and tied back to get the boat in. However, these collars work at low pressures (2 - 5 psi max) and the effects of altitude (or even the warmth of the cargo hold) would turn a floppy collar into a rock hard one straining at its restraints causing equal amounts of concern and ammusement.
AML are now part of Airborne Systems Ltd as are Irvins and GQ so the majority of the British way of parachuting and heavy drop is now contained in a single company.
By the way, the SEALS were so eager to look at PURIBAD that they turned up at Boscombe with only 30 minutes warning from JATE (clearance for foreign nationals visiting Boscombe normally takes weeks), who had said "You guys need to see the boat system Boscombe are working on."

[dragartist]

VX275 - appologies for getting your call sign muddled up. I am sure JFZ90 will appreciate the info and the links I found to the other interesting stuff.
A squared E squared was back in the good old bad old days. I thought they were T&E and did not know they designed stuff. Does this thing go in the C130J as I know the floor is different. I noted from the links to the Quam Seal Team stuff through the HOC presentation that they had several malfunctions making a "big splash" not very good for the jumpers who probably had a long swim home. I hope all the UK systems work OK. I guess there will be more room to leave the collars inflated on the A400M. Bright orange does not look very military. I supose this may be a hang over from AA&AEE days when all the special kit they fitted for trials was orange

[VX275]

From what I was told the big splash was a result of the Americans desire to use their own parachutes (G12) which were deployed lines first. PURIBAD was developed using G12 rather than the in service 60 foot utilty or SC15 parachutes. Even at the design stage overseas sales were a driving forces and we knew that every other Western nation used the G12 (a design dating from WW2) rather than the 60's era 60 ft U or the 80's SC15. For PURIBAD the G12 were packed the British way so that they deployed Canopy first (also meant the static line was clear for the following troops) to minimise the drop height and initial drops used a G12 as an extractor but that showed itself to be a very bad idea.

Aerial Delivery at Boscombe was indeed different to rest of the A&AEE in that some R&D did take place alongside the main T&E role. This was a hangover from its origins with the Airborne Forces Experimental Establishment (AFEE) which was absorbed by the A&AEE in 1950 bringing to Boscombe all T&E parachute and rotary wing work.

The different floors in the K and J are not a problem other than funding new platforms. And my first thoughts on seeing the C-17 cargo hold was "Oh no, the Marines will want to drop LRIC now".

[JFZ90]

thanks for the info vx, very interesting, i like the rib inflation issue.

just a few questions if I may

when did it start, 80s or 90s?
it seems that the technology in the puribad is essentially all uk based (except the us chute variation) - so its basically a uk success story, and the us seałs are using an ad platform made in wales. i like that idea.
do you know which other airforces use it (norway, aus?) if thats not a sensitive question?

it would be interesting to know how many puribad platforms are at the bottom of various oceans and seas - I assume we may never find out. I guess thats the idea of it sinking - 'we' were never there :)

PS drag, you might be surprised how much design work e.g. AFD in what was A&AEE did - e.g. Jaguar UOR41/94 that introduced TIALD etc.

[dragartist]

Thanx 275. I did not realise this parachute stuff was so complex. no wonder it required the brains at Boscombe. All these numbers is confusing. The parachute world must be so overloaded with TLAs.

Z90, I visited Boscombe several times with the Nimrod in the 80s, always impressed. I realise they did the Chinook re engineering. they made a telly programme. I was more impressed with the Engineering at RAE Bedford. My Dad worked on the VAARC Harrier amongst other things with exended nose jobs for various radar fits. The workshops at the tunnel site used to make bits for us at Wyton (long before we had the plastic airfix things up there)

Do they still do this airdrop development at Boscombe. having read the open source stuff on JATE/JADTEU I got the impression that BZN was the centre of excellence for all things airdrop and rotary.

I too would be interested to know how many of these things are littering the sea bed and why no body has made a documentary film publishing how the Brits lead the world in airdrop technology. I know we were broke but total lack of investment if we are still using WW2 vintage parachutes. with the demise of the Jaguar and Victor do we not have any brake chutes that could be used as exractors rather than these WW2 G12s and left over ejector seat spares.

Looking forward to tomorows installment. What is an LRIC?

We had a fantastic Aircraft Engineering design facility at Wyton (EWAU). We would have done a job like TIALD in our lunch break. Tuc posted some nice pictures showing some of the work I did in the 80s on another thread last week. most of it was so classified we did not talk about it to our wives. Saddly like everything else, cut to bits and put the crumbs out to industry. in this case Greenville Tx.

[500N]

"I noted from the links to the Quam Seal Team stuff through the HOC presentation that they had several malfunctions making a "big splash" not very good for the jumpers who probably had a long swim home."

Over here in Aus the troops were not allowed to exit until
the chutes had fully opened.

I am trying to find a photo of the metal / plywood pallet they
used over here in the 80's / 90's.

Not sure if it is the same system.

[threeputt]

Long Range Insertion Craft.

3P:ok:

[dragartist]

I see what you mean about this LRIC machine 275. Certainly too big for a C130. but the Pirates in the Indian Ocean would be very worried if we could suprise them by dropping one from a C17 as the US appear to do.

So having invented and sold all this kit overseas we can't afford to have any ourselves. we really are becoming a third world nation.

500N did you find your pictures of this Aussie plywood contraption? Perhaps that could be the next offering for the caption competition!!!

I think there was some stuff in the DE&S house magazine about dropping some smaller boats for the submarine rescue team some time back. Now that was a better read than the RAF News!! I don't see any of these now I have retired. PPRuNe keeps me up to speed with wots goin on. or not going on as the case may be this day and age.

[500N]

drag

No, haven't found one yet. I am going through all the old photos
on my associations web site to see if I can find one.

I was not a loady so hopefully a loady or Pilot from Aus might be able to
chip in with some more detail.

The item was made of Steel, I think Zinc plated and was very heavy.
I think it had a sheet of ply wood on top.

The Zodiac Inflatable - and probably other things - were strapped to
this device with the chutes on top of the Zodiac and this is how it
went off the ramp.

We cut away the straps and the pallet type thing sank until they
realised how much they cost so after that they were towed to shore.

Not sure who came up with the system but in the late 80's / early 90's,
my Water Ops WO had been involved with the setting up and testing
of various systems for Zodiac deployment.

He commented that they speared in a couple of boats during this time
when the chutes didn't deploy which is why I think the soldiers weren't
allowed to jump until the whole rig had deployed.

Will try to find some more info.

[dragartist]

500,
found this ref on google looks like Babcock have taken over from Airborne Systems in this field

Babcock wins aerial delivery system contract | Babcock International Group PLC (http://www.babcockinternational.com/media-centre/babcock-wins-aerial-delivery-system-contract/)

the same thing gets mentioned on JADTEU public domain site alongside PURIBAD. Looks like we have bought nearly 200 systems. I think they must have the decimal point in the wrong place! (or the MoD is not as broke as it pretends to be)

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Air Safety and Aviation | JADTEU | Aerial Delivery Section (http://94.236.30.88/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/AirSafetyandAviation/JADTEU/AerialDeliverySection.htm)

Some nice pics of other stuff. It also says they provide advice to XV275 at Boscombe the USA and Norway (probably about this PURIBAD that Airborne Systems are hawking)

[VX275]

Dragartist. JADTEU provide brawn not advice to QinetiQ (the Aerial Delivery guys that were at QQ/Boscombe now lodge with JADTEU at Brize).

Incidently UK heavy drop started with a boat system, the Airborne Lifeboat. The parachute system developed for the Lifeboat was adapted for dropping Jeeps and anti-tank guns. The first airdropped boat for the RM was the Boom Patrol Boat which was a British copy of the Italian exploding motor boat. The RM Boom Patrol Section are more famous for Operation Frankton the Canoe attack on Bordeaux, but a drop of the Boom Patrol Boat required just as much guts as the operator rode it down.:eek:

[dragartist]

257 I think you should complain to the MoD under the trades descriptions act about false claims being made about the capabilities of JADTEU. A bit like the chatter about RAF web page.

I read about Uffa Fox and the lifeboat being dropped from a Warwick (and Hudson?) also stuff on early SAS history droping jeeps from Halifaxes before D day.

I recently read Cockleshell Heros (50p from a book sale) they went by submarine. Knowing how brave these guys were it did not suprise me that they parachuted sat on their chariots ready for action. The Elf and Safety would not permit that these days!

So most of our drop kit we have today goes back to 1953 (MSP according to JADTEU official web page. And Earl Mountbatten South East Asia Command Pack accrding to Col Potter NATO report)

So what have you guys at Boscombe been doing to bring us into the 21st Centurary??