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Pilot16
24th Apr 2002, 21:07
Hi there,

I would like to know If it is possible fly large jets such as B777 or 767 straight from a frozen atpl (with no other jet experience and type ratings with low hours such as 250-300. Or do most pilot climb from turbo props to the larger ones?
I am talking about four years time when I finished my training.

I hope I made some sense.

appreciate your time.

Mindthegap
24th Apr 2002, 21:21
Take it from me it isn“t that much fun to fly a big commercial jetliner. I wouldn“t recommend going straight into that seat. Of course it is so much more difficult to take a type rating with no experience.

Pin Head
25th Apr 2002, 09:34
mind the gap, are you on drugs?

why write such rubbish.

scroggs
25th Apr 2002, 09:52
It has certainly been possible to get a job flying B737s straight from training. The only operator of B767/777s that did take low-hour pilots was BA, but as far as I know the largest type they'd put newly-graduated cadets on is short-haul B757s. A couple of IT operators have also put low-hour pilots on B757s in the recent past.

However, that was all before Sep 11th! Right now, there are very, very few jobs out there for fATPLs. I'm sure the situation will be much better in four years' time, but I wouldn't be in such a rush to run before you can walk.

femaleflyer
25th Apr 2002, 10:04
Scroggs,
Don't forget that Emirates also send their cadets (who go through exactly the same course as BA cadets) straight onto B777 or A340 after completing the IRT. And that's only with 200 hours each.
Cheers,
femaleflyer

Wee Weasley Welshman
25th Apr 2002, 12:02
Emirates and Cathay both at one time put 200hr boys and girls into widebody flightdecks. However; they were little more than cruise pilots for several years. Getting the Volmet and being on hand to engage the other autopilot should one drop out with the Skipper taking a pee is not really much fun nor much like flying.

I imagine its a good idea to get a few years of European or domestic jet hours under your belt before you try tackling a line of CB's over Delhi or an engine malfunction mid-Atlantic..

Face it guys. Only this week BACE has announced dozens and dozens of pilot jobs to be axed. Those ex-Brymon and British Regional pilots facing a P45 have tens of thousands of hours between them in both seats... Low time is going to be a real headache for a while yet. Things will get better - I am just not convinced they have finsihed getting worse yet :(

WWW

Sick Squid
25th Apr 2002, 13:06
Don't put the SO job down so single-handedly WWW. Plenty of us actually did it for a while, and learned a hell of a lot; and not just about getting Volmet etc. mostly about the people-handling and airline operation skills. It's all down to your personal attitude, and how you approach the job... not necessarily the best way to start an aviation career, but it is a foot in the door at certain carriers. Nor is it something to do for a long time either, and should be consolidated with other flying, a structured sim. program and followed up on a small and violent type like a 737/T-Prop, but neither is it the trivial waste of time you characterise it as.

We did find ourselves with about 400 hours crossing the ITCZ, negotiating levels (creatively!) with Calcutta and Delhi, sitting over Siberia in winter with Europe Cat III on absolute minimum fuel. All the time learning from the experience, and most importantly seeing how the very experienced and culturally diverse crews we were flying with dealt with the operation.

Cart before the horse, certainly, but now in the LHS I find myself often referring back to the experience gained in CX. That, by definition, cannot have been a waste.



Anyway, enough already, to the question at hand; my mob would put cadets onto the 757 in the past, with the 767 coming up after about 6 months on average. However, to fly the 777 on ETOPS (and possibly the 767 ETOPS, but not when I flew it in 1996) required APIC qualification (Acting Pilot in Command) which basically meant you had to be suitable for command, with an unfrozen-ATPL and a few other hurdles succesfully crossed. For those reasons you are unlikely ever to see low-hour P2's in the RHS on the fleets that can require in-flight relief, ie, the long-range 777's, 330's, 340's and 744's of this world.

The largest you can "realistically" expect is a 737... the best place to start an airline career is without doubt one that builds exposure and handling experience. Time spent in a turboprop or something smaller than the jets you mention at the top is never wasted.

Some of this may be innacurate regarding other carriers policy, for that I apologise, but regarding BA that seems to be the current position of the goalposts. As you are well aware, they are constantly in motion, damn things! :)

Good luck.

£6

Wee Weasley Welshman
25th Apr 2002, 14:51
Time spent in the air is rarely wasted and I concede I was too dissmissive about something I know little about. As you say though; not the best way to start a career.

WWW

Pilot16
25th Apr 2002, 15:42
Thanx for the help everyone.
I really dont have much experience in aviation so still am learning, which makes the wannabe forum the perfect place. :)

femaleflyer
25th Apr 2002, 17:37
You should get your facts right WWW. Emirates STILL put "their 200 hour boys and girls" into the right hand seat straight out of training. I can name 9 or 10 cadets from EK3 and EK4, who were in Michigan, who are now flying B777s and A340s, in TWO (2) man operations. Don't be so bloody negative the whole time.
:)

PAIFAgofer
25th Apr 2002, 20:13
I think you have to be UAE or GCC national to be selected for the Emirates cadet scheme. unfair? hardly. It is THEIR airline.

If I'm wrong, shoot me. No apologies.

Pilot16
25th Apr 2002, 20:35
Firstly, appologising for my crap spelling on my first post, i was in a rush.

I visit Emirates site regularly, never have I saw an AB Initio course :confused:

wickerman
25th Apr 2002, 20:57
Astraeus is about to put 4 F/O's straight into a 737/300/700 in around 3 weeks time. They have already passed the Ground School and start Sim on Monday. It can be done. Get on the Pprune scheme next time around and give it a go!!
As for flying a jet being boring.......********!!

wickerman
25th Apr 2002, 20:59
ooops...I meant 5 F/O's and yes, they were all low hours Frozen Atpl's.

Wee Weasley Welshman
25th Apr 2002, 22:05
FemaleFlyer - OK thanks for the new info. As far as I was aware Emirates had stopped putting their cadets into such operations. As you seem to know better I bow to your superior knowledge.

As for being Negative all the time. I back up any negative opinion with the reasoning and figures relevant. You are free to ignore my postings. Within the last month I posted a lengthy analysis with argument and hard figures. I was cautiously upbeat stating things would normalise in 2.5 years. So you are not being fair.

Thank you for the Emirates info.

WWW

Shanks
26th Apr 2002, 07:28
As long as the facts are there, keep posting it the way you see it WWW. Your cautions saved me from taking the plunge at the wrong time, currently saving through the lean years :)

scroggs
26th Apr 2002, 08:38
Ah, yes. I did restrict my remarks to UK carriers, as Pilot16 is based in London. I am aware that Cathay and Emirates fly newly-graduated fATPLs as cruise pilots in A340/B744/B777. In fact, we in Virgin did the same a few years ago but decided in 1999 or 2000 that it wasn't economically viable to run a small section of SOs that couldn't be used on the normal roster as FOs. As £6 mentions, you also need to get the APIC qualification to be fully useful in the long-haul business, which disqualifies all fATPL holders.

I'm sure that there are other airlines that do use low-hour pilots in long haul around the world, and good luck to them. I myself was qualified P1 on the 'Mighty Hercules' with less than 400 hours under my belt, and the RAF still sends baby co-pilots off all around the world (and to war) with very low hours on the E3 (B707), Nimrod, Tristar (L1011-500), C17, VC10 and C130. These are all serious heavy metal. Not only that, but these guys may be commanders on these types with around 1500 hours or less. If it's OK for the RAF, there's no reason why it shouldn't be for anyone else!;)

femaleflyer
26th Apr 2002, 10:23
OK, on re-reading my post, it appears I came across as being a little too harsh. WWW, I was refering to your negativity about the low hour long haul pilots, and should not have criticised in such broad terms. My apologies.
However, this IS such a difficult industry to predict, and one can not say FOR SURE how and when it will pick up. I feel that there are a lot of positive aspects out there that we should also concentrate on, such as the vast number of pilots coming up to retirement (indeed, most of the "dozens and dozens" - 48 actually - of BACE flight ops redundancies will come from pilots retiring or moving over to the BA mainline fleet). Also, the fact that pax loads have not dropped off nearly as much as first feared should be cause for hope.
Now, don't get me wrong, it's great to ponder and try to predict the future, and your analyses are a fantastic read, but the fact is that NO ONE can do it! This is not a criticism, just a re-iteration, that the only certain thing in aviation is uncertainty!
:)

Wee Weasley Welshman
26th Apr 2002, 10:39
BACE flight op redundancies will come from retirement and moving to BA Mainline you say?

Surely not.

I don't denegrate the practice of SO's on widebodies. But not many airlines do it and most people agree its not the best start to your flying career.

As I have defended 200hr pilots flying jet airliners on this forum for about half a decade now it really would be unfair to imply I am snotty about their abilities whether as a SO or FO.

I am not at all sure full sponsorships will return anyway. The difference between Mod and Int these days is very marginal. I can see airlines saying "85%+ average in the exams plus first time pass in CPL or IRT with 2 A levels Grade C+ plus a recommendation from your school and we'll interview you".

Whereas CAP509 was quite different from 700hrs hour building the truth is nowadays the airline cadets do the same syllabus to the same standards as the modular guys. All the cadets sometimes get is a few extra hours on Aeros or something equally negligble.

It might be a better system in the long run.

WWW

femaleflyer
26th Apr 2002, 11:26
No, you should pay more attention to detail. I said MOST of the BACE redundancies will come from crew moving to the main line or retiring. And it's hardly a great deal in the general sceme of things, is it? The BA cadets who were given posts in January/February with BACE after completing their training have been assured that their jobs are safe, so IF redundancies were obligatory, would they not be the first to go?
As for your comments on integrated v modular training, that all depends on the airline in question. The airlines who offer full sponsorship do very well out their programmes in terms of government tax cuts and, for the vast majority of cases, loyalty after the training is completed. Also, they recuperate a great deal of the costs from the cadets in the first few years of employment, in terms of reduced basic pay and having to pay back a percentage of the training costs. What's more, the cadets are bound legally to serve for a period of time, not to mention that the company can mould their crew to their particular requirements and operations manual from the very start.
Consequently, I disagree with that prediction for the future. I am quite sure that those airlines which can afford to offer sponsorships will continue to do so.
Going directly on to longhaul is not beneficial for the low hour pilot, in terms of sectors flown and experience gained in busy, short flights, but I maintain that some airlines do manage that and the end product from the excellent training is an extremely competent pilot.
:)

Wee Weasley Welshman
26th Apr 2002, 11:39
No, you should pay more attention to detail. I said MOST of the BACE redundancies will come from crew moving to the main line or retiring.

I was under the impression that BACE crews could not move to mainline for many years. Practically many could not afford to leave the regions and go to the bottom of the seniority at Gatwick or Heathrow - even if they were recruiting there. Retirements are ficticious. If the company were staying stangnant they would need to promote up a FO to replace the retiring Skipper. As they are contracting they will not do that. The net effect for Joe Wannabe is the same. No job advert in Flight to apply to. Also don't believe the "retired" pilots just toddle off to prune the roses - many in fact most will take up contract work or join the low cost airlines for a few years to top up the pension.

And it's hardly a great deal in the general sceme of things, is it?

I never said it was. Its just another blow just as people were starting to think there would be no more redundancies.

The BA cadets who were given posts in January/February with BACE after completing their training have been assured that their jobs are safe, so IF redundancies were obligatory, would they not be the first to go?

No becuase they work for BA Mainline and are seconded to BACE. Which causes some consternation I can assure you. I would be interested to see any written Balpa recognised assurance the cadets have been given. I hope redundancies will not be obligatory. I fear that by making pilots move bases the upheavel will result in some leaving the company of their own accord to follow vacancies elsewhere - thus avoiding expensive redundancy packages. It is truly a harsh commercial world out there these days :(

Cheers,

WWW

femaleflyer
26th Apr 2002, 12:30
Yet AGAIN, your information is inaccurate. The BA cadets are under contract with BACE, on BACE pay packages and are not bound to the mainline (yet).

No, you didn't say that it wasn't a great deal in the grand sceme of things. It was a rhetorical question. You were implying that the whole industry is in a terrible state, and I am arguing that it is not: "Face it guys. Only this week BACE has announced dozens and dozens of pilot jobs to be axed." My point was it's hardly dozens and dozens and they are hardly being axed.

My only point in persuing this argument is that your rhetoric has pearls of wisdom scattered throughout. Unfortunately, you can not resist the odd chunk of absolute codswallop just to fill the pages.

Cheers
:)

El Desperado
26th Apr 2002, 23:00
Heh - WWW, you may have met your nemisis in ff; she's even sharper than you if you slip up on the odd redundant conditional sub-clause :D

Aannnyyyway.. I'm going to pitch my tent firmly(ish) in the Welshman's camp on this particular topic. The industry is in a terrible state if you have just passed your IR. There are no jobs out there for you. Certainly not in a jet, wide or narrow, as the original poster was asking.

If someone wants to say Ryanair, or whoever, hired 5 200 hr F/Os last month, I will respond with the CAA figures for the numbers of licences issued in that particular month. Let us not bore each other ! Ratios, you see.

As to sponsorships... I must place a guy-rope of my tent on to ff's pitch. I suspect you are both right, but the majority of 'sponsorships' will be similar to the Astraeus scheme, requiring a CPL to get a look-in, whilst a few airlines will continue with ab-initio sponsorships. The company I work for is already gearing up for a new scheme, but unfortunately for those looking, they are returning to a previous system of offering them in-house to cabin crew/staff first, before looking outside.

FF is right - there are considerable benefits to the airline in offering ab-initios. They are not charities and wouldn't do it if they didn't get a reasonable return for their investment. And sticking my left leg on the other side of the fence, why bother when there are 100 new CPL holders banging on your door who've already paid for the blue book and have proved some aptitude ?

As for 200 hour longhaul pilots... well...ermm.. it's obviously possible but I wouldn't want to be that RHS on my first sector after line training when the old codger next to me croaked it on an approach into some African airfield. I don't think I'd want to be in the back either. I think I would make it my immediate business to be nowhere near that aircraft and although I know I'm being flippant about it, the serious reality is that 200 hours is not enough for 2-crew longhaul.

Fire away.

Wee Weasley Welshman
26th Apr 2002, 23:14
FemaleFlyer - I was told by one BACE Airtours loaned cadet that the BA sponsored guys going to BACE would be on mainline contracts. Obviously he was wrong but he seemed like a good source.

The BACE cuts ARE significant to Wannabes. It means there will be some qualified pilots looking for work, it means new jobs in BACE will not be advertised for a long time, it means early retirers will turn up at interviews for any other jobs going in the industry, it means what were great solid Wannabe first airlines (Brymon and Brit Regional) are not recruiting for the next 18 months+

Can I just ask you out of curiousity what your position in aviation is?

I wonder what is going to happen to BACE what with Airtours and BA cadets currently in FO positions with them awaiting an upturn in their parent airlines.

WWW

Slotted-Flap
27th Apr 2002, 21:12
Funny. I was chatting to a pilot who had just quit his job as he was starting with BACE. He also claimed they would be looking at conducting 60-65 interviews soon. I wonder if he has a sore head at the moment?:confused:

Payscale
28th Apr 2002, 12:39
WWW and FEMALEFLYER

Nope...no ab-initio girl pilots in EK....infact no girls at all! Yet! and oh by the way no A340 either.....and darn anotherone no cruisepilots in EK.

If you want the facts, ask on the middel east forum. This forum here is not very well informed! but loads of fun to read

Enjoy... :)

shifatur
28th Apr 2002, 14:01
hey guys........intersting topic .........

would emirates be interested to hire pilots from places like bangladesh/india/pakistan (self sponsored) who have around 300 hours in the air? say, 100 of them r jet engine time and the license is from either australia or f.a.a?

:D could someone lemme know?

take care
ciao
shifatur

Wee Weasley Welshman
28th Apr 2002, 14:05
No; they wouldn't.

WWW