Random Alcohol Breath Testing for the RN

[SaddamsLoveChild]

I see in todays Torygraph that "RN Commanding officers will be given equipment to enable spot checks to be carried out to ensure sailors are not reporting for duty drunk". I wonder if this will become a pan defence policy? Surely it has merit when you consider the state some of those working on aircraft and 'crewing in' down route and 'on det' turn in for duty especially when there is less supervision away from hombase. Albeit the minority I might add.

There still pervades in the minority the belief that this is all part of service life; it certainly was a few years ago and I was as guilty as anyone. However, in todays post Haddon Cave environment surely it wouldnt be too hard to tweak the CDT teams to also test for alcohol on personnel.

I for one would welcome it.

[Just This Once...]

We have had post-incident drug and alcohol testing in the RAF for years and the net is thrown quite wide to include support staff, ATC etc. Mil crews are also subject to overseas random testing too. I for one have been test in the USA and it gets your attention when it happens.

[Big Toe]

It's not random testing that's being introduced but will be an option for confirming the suspicion of being unfit for duties due to alcohol and included in the Armed Forces Act, so will be pan-defence. The limiits are going to be more widely briefed soon but are in line with UK Drink-drive laws for non-safety critical duties and "effectively zero" for safety critical (inc aircrew, ATC & engineers) personnel.

[Just This Once...]

Sounds like a reasonable policy.

[BlackIsle]

Policy incorporated into law ok, but what are the guidelines about consequences?

[ZH875]

Sounds like a reasonable policy.

Great policy, pity it won't be used on benefit spongers before they claim their weekly beer tokens from the taxpayer.

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC the AFA only required for an officer to charge someone with being drunk. This was years before drink-driving or breathalysers. Clearly there were margins for error and probably erring on the too lenient rather than the too strict.

Has that now changed?

[alfred_the_great]

It's come about post-ASTUTE shooting. The man who shot the WEO was still over the limit (or very near to it) when he signed for his rifle. It's quite hard to determine, as Officer of the Day, the morning after is someone is over the limit or under it.

As someone who will be affected by this, I can only approve to be honest.

[Wander00]

IIRC, "He was unsteady on his feet, his breath smelled of alcohol and his speech was slurred. Sir, he was drunk"

[Hydromet]

IIRC the AFA only required for an officer to charge someone with being drunk. This was years before drink-driving or breathalysers. Clearly there were margins for error and probably erring on the too lenient rather than the too strict.
"He was unsteady on his feet, his breath smelled of alcohol and his speech was slurred. Sir, he was drunk"
In the ARA (in the 1960s), the officer or NCO had to decide on the basis of the suspect's actions and appearance, whether someone should be charged with drunkenness. He would later be required to present this as evidence, usually in the form quoted above. He was specifically prohibited from applying a test or asking the 'suspect' to perform any action to determine his sobriety.

[phil9560]

Entirely reasonable.If you work with bombs and bullets you really should be sober.

Shouldn't you ?

[4everAD]

Another nail in the coffin of morale in that all events involving alcohol I.e. Thursday bops, exchange drinks, games nights and mess functions will have to move to the weekends where no-one will go to them. I'm not advocating people turning up drunk for duty however if a level of zero alcohol. in the blood stream is used for critical staff then it in effect introduces a drinking ban for them mon-fri or any other flying days and as we all know in the interests of fairness we'll all get tarred with the same brush.

[thunderbird7]

It's akin to banning chips, chinagraph and bodge tape! How will the the forces continue to function?? :}

[BEagle]

Another nail in the coffin of morale in that all events involving alcohol I.e. Thursday bops, exchange drinks, games nights and mess functions will have to move to the weekends where no-one will go to them.

When the Biggin Hill OM beanstealing blunties tried to move dining-in nights from Fridays to Thursdays, so that they could leg it home with their hangovers at Friday lunchtimes, they'd forgotten about the relatively large number of us who, although undergoing aircrew reselection, were still mess members.....with voting rights.

So, when it was put to the vote at an extraordinary mess meeting, the beanstealers lost and dining-in nights continued to be held on Fridays...:ok:

I once had an Annual Medical the morning after the medical centre's midweek Christmas function. The quack was clearly suffering; he reeked of stale booze and was sweating like a pig. So when it came to the usual question "How much do you drink in a week?", I simply replied "A damn sight less than you did last night!".....

No reason for mid-week functions to end. It just means people will need to exercise self-discipline.

[airborne_artist]

Another nail in the coffin of morale in that all events involving alcohol I.e. Thursday bops, exchange drinks, games nights and mess functions will have to move to the weekends where no-one will go to them.

The old "I only have fun when I'm pissed excuse".

Trust me - it's not true.

An average male starting at 19.00 can have two pints, two glasses of wine and two singles of spirits and be completely clear of alcohol by 07.00 the following morning.

Most professional civilians don't drink all that much mid-week. A lot I know just have a glass of wine with their evening meal, if that. There's no reason why people in uniform should be any different.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Yet another, predictable, knee jerk response to a less than once a Preston Guild incident. As Beagle said, the real key is self discipline.

So you can turn to after extended watches/duties (or, otherwise, little sleep from having a real life off duty) totally knackerd, so long as you're stone cold sober?

[SOSL]

You and BEagle are right the real key is self discipline; shouldn't drink too much. Trouble is, after too many sherbets, self discipline tends to wane.

Then his or her buddies really should look after him or her for everyone's sake. Doesn't always happen.

I remember a General Court Martial, yonks ago, where a regiment gunner came off duty, had a fight with his girlfriend and then got absolutely arxxholed.

His weapons authorisation chit had 4 hours to go and so he went to the armoury and drew a 9 mm Browning and some ammo. His buddies in the Armoury ignored the fact that he could hardly stand up and issued the stuff anyway; because his chit was still current!

He then went on a rampage across the station. Eventually he was persuaded to hand over his weapon by a very courageous Sgt rock.

He went down for 4 1/2 years in civvy prison, for firearm offences and threats to kill - but it all wouldn't have happened if the armourers had said "no you're too pissed - go back to the block and get some rest".

Rgds SOS

[SaddamsLoveChild]

The self discipline argument is flawed byt he actions of those who get on a bender on a monday nt are still in the bar at 0200, have met brief at 0830 and are at their desk, on the hangar floor or in a cockpit that morning....it still happens and I saw it happen no less than a month ago in Oxfordshire. Drts are even worse for a complete ack of self discipline, we all know that and still see it. When you try to remonstrate down or up the CoC it goes something like, 'look we will just put him on admin duties, no he hasnt worked on any aircraft this morning but yes he is still in work, hey do you really want to push this and ruin his career. I still remeber the ginger beer refusing to man the start of an aircraft as he believed the aircrew were unfit to fly......but that was in 2007.

The fact that iaw the AFA you can now request a breath test of an individual at work then I am all in favour of it and it wont hit morale, it hasnt in the ATC world and they are to my mind the most observant of the regs regarding alcohol.

The morale argument doesnt wash, the self discipline argument doesnt wash and I for one am glad that if he/she reports for duty, reeks of alcohol he can be random breath tested then the dangerous part of what we do might become a little safer.

[pma 32dd]

Shouldn't you get one on applying to join the Andrew?

:E

[Whenurhappy]

I've been trying to find a report written in c2008, possibly by KCL, highlighting the extent of 'problem drinking' in the Navy. The percentage figures of those who regularly get blind driunk (which I won't try to recall) were simply staggering.

Echoing other posts, friends of mine in the City generally confine drinking almost exclusively to Friday and Saturday nights. Turning up for work 'worse for wear' is one step closer to being sacked these days.

[Pontius Navigator]

A_A, curiously the amount you suggest is feasible in the evening was not far removed from a normal lunchtime.

While Craig I think, though it could have been Sir Peter Hardup, more or less banned lunch time drinking, before that it was almost the norm for desk officers to be pie-eyed until late afternoon.

I recall one sqn ldr ops at a maritime base pre-FI who was invariably squiffy until tea time when he might start work. Or our dark blue brethren with their measured calorie controlled intake at lunchtime.

[oldgrubber]

The RFA have had alcohol testing for many years, in line with civilian law. I have served on many RFAs as part of a squadron and as part of the Naval embarked support (now called MASF) and it works!
The Chof can test anyone he suspects is under the influence whilst on duty and kick them off to find their own way back from wherever the ship docks next.
The rules (if applied with common sense) are fair and don’t penalise watchkeepers or daymen either way and give ample opportunity to socialise (with alcohol) even at sea.
I agree that if a person “turns to” worse for wear, they load others, undermine discipline and put lives in danger.
All that’s needed is the Naval command to “grow a set” and start applying rules that already exist about drinking on board, but in the absence of that ever happening voluntarily, a test would force their hand to punish the offender. Good!


Cheers now

[Pontius Navigator]

oldgrubber, can you qualify the The Chof can test anyone he suspects is under the influence whilst on duty . . . the rules (if applied with common sense) are fair and don’t penalise watchkeepers or daymen either way and give ample opportunity to socialise (with alcohol) even at sea.

Now I read in a journal about 3 years ago that merchant ships officers were not permitted to drink while watch keeping whereas daymen were permitted a small quantity, perhaps the 2-can rule.

Can you comment on that?

Pre-Captain Calamities near miss (it were the miss that were near) with the rocks I had seen officers on cruise ships drinking wine or beer - never to excess. On my last cruise I didn't even see them with a glass to hand. Now a cruise ship rarely spends more than 10 hours in port so a no-drinking rule would have them teetotal for months at a time.

Are merchant ships' officers allowed to drink while at sea?

[6nandneutral]

Saddam's Love Child. Have you gone religious also. Like you I am out also, but, I don't think that you would have posted this if you were still in.:=

[oldgrubber]

PN,

I have to admit that my RFA time was pre the Captain Calamity saga, but we often had whole crew quiz nights, flight deck BBQs etc where I saw representatives of the whole crew enjoying "down time". There was probably a "bottle to throttle" equivalent for bridge/engineering watchkeepers. (like I said, common sense)
At the time the RFA Doctor would control and administer the tests as requested by the command when a breach was suspected.
If the merchant rules have changed again since, I am happy to be corrected.
Being ex RN I know ALL crew members on RN ships can drink (off watch) which is why I think the testing will be a positive thing.

[GreenKnight121]

The USN did this last year:

Navy to place breath-test machines on all its ships - Checkpoint Washington - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/navy-to-place-breathalyzers-on-all-its-ships/2012/03/06/gIQAIC4ZuR_blog.html) 03/06/2012
In 1913, Navy Secretary Josephus Daniels issued a revolutionary order: no more alcohol on board ships. According to official Navy myth (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/traditions/html/navyterm.html#joe), sober sailors mocked their boss by nicknaming their coffee — the strongest drink still allowed on board — a “cup of Joe.” A century later, current Navy Secretary Ray Mabus is one-upping Daniels, ordering the installation of breath-test machines on all ships and submarines, as well as on Marine Corps bases. One can only imagine how he will go down in naval lore.

According to Mabus, the breath tests are not intended as a crackdown measure but rather to help identify sailors who might be struggling with booze. The alcohol testing is part of a broader new Navy program designed to improve the physical and mental well-being of those having difficulty coping with the stresses of a decade of war.

“We are not telling you not to drink, if you are old enough,” Mabus told an audience of sailors and Marines Monday afternoon aboard the USS Bataan at Naval Station Norfolk. “We are telling you that it is important to keep legal, responsible use of alcohol from turning into a problem.”

The problem generally is not that sailors are showing up blitzed to work, Mabus said in an interview. It’s that alcohol is surfacing as a factor in a host of social and professional ills that are increasingly of concern to the Navy brass: sexual assault, domestic problems, suicide, even poor physical fitness.

Mabus said the Navy has a bunch of separate programs to address each of those problems, but decided that it needed to take a more comprehensive approach. “We’ve done a lot of good and pretty effective things, but they’ve been piecemeal,” he said.

By detecting those who show up to work with a drink or two still in their system — especially on more than one occasion — the Navy will be able to intervene and offer counseling before things escalate, he said.

All ranks are vulnerable, Mabus said. He noted that 13 of 20 commanding officers recently fired by the Navy (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/navy-has-spike-in-commanding-officer-firings-most-for-personal-misconduct/2011/06/14/AGZJj7YH_story.html) admitted afterward that drinking was a contributing factor to their problems.
----
Mabus made his announcement aboard the Bataan, an amphibious assault ship that returned last month after 322 days at sea — the longest deployment of any Navy ship in four decades.

[SOSL]

Ref post #8.

The Astute shooting of the WEO took place because the culprit was a nutter - being over or close to the alcohol limit probably influenced his behaviour, at the time.

The trouble is that being pixxed doesn't mean you're a murderer. Breath/blood testing will uncover individuals who are over the limit whilst on duty. Well and good; they shouldn't be allowed to operate/handle potentially dangerous kit or be in a position to cause harm. But don't imagine that it is a defence against nutters.

It's just the relatively easy knee jerk reaction to an extraordinarily complex problem. It's far more difficult to understand and guard against nutters.

Rgds SOS

[Running_In]

I concur with SOSL. I once deployed to Afghanistan for a month with an aircraft who was just that - a complete nutter. Not just a bit unconventional or a maverick. He was a plain old fashioned nutter & it was the most difficult problem I've ever been faced with! His behavior did get a lot worse when he was drunk but his worst crimes (and they were crimes in retrospect) took place when he was sober. He was unstable and booze only exaggerated deep set character flaws.

Needless to say when I realized what was going on I spoke to my chain of command. Predictably I was told to get back in my box as it was all just 'high spirits' until he got sent back from his next detachment 3 days in for nearly wiping out his whole aircraft and a platoon of Marines. Just like I'd told them he would!

There are just some people out there who are not wired like everyone else, they can present a problem that the system seems incapable of dealing with.

That said, it's difficult to see how this initiative isn't a good thing.

[SOSL]

And I agree with you RI.

Slightly off thread but back in 197x one of the Sgts in ASF turned up for work and seemed to be a bit off balance as he walked across the hangar floor, also his speech sounded a bit strange. These effects became worse and so I asked the Flt Sgt to escort him up to the Med Centre and get one of the JMOs to sober him up.

Turned out he had MS. If we had had decent breath testing in those days he would have been spared a little hassle and no little embarrassment.

He went downhill pretty quickly and was medically discharged. The MoD pensions actuaries, in their wisdom, decided to reduce his pension drastically because he only had a very short life expectancy. Tough shxt on his wife and kids living in a house with a mortgage, which otherwise he would have been able to cover.

Sorry for thread drift but this just reminded me how angry I was.

Rgds SOS

[Pontius Navigator]

According to Mabus, the breath tests are not intended as a crackdown measure but rather to help identify sailors who might be struggling with booze.

I was in a bar in downtown Singapore in the very early afternoon having a glass of lemonade. The bar was lined, bum to bum, with sailors off the New Jersey on R&R. They were all struggling with the booze. Their shore leave ended at 5pm and they were determined to get their monies worth.