617 Sqn Special Unveiling news

[bluetail]

Got this leaving Lossiemouth for Coningsby an hour ago

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s174/bluetail228/TORNADOGR4ZA412617SQN70THLOSS20-3-13_zpsc609f830.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s174/bluetail228/TORNADOGR4ZA412617SQN70THLOSS20-3-133_zps965360ab.jpg

One of two done up for their 70th this weekend

[500N]

That looks awesome :ok:

[Roadster280]

Couldn't the SWO have found some reprobates on jankers to clean the soot off? It does draw the eye a bit from the otherwise excellent paintjob.

[just another jocky]

But it would only get dirty again very quickly.

Nice paint job. Was on the Sqn for its 50th Anniversary. :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Outstanding paint job :D:D:D:D

[RUCAWO]

Corgi jumped the gun last week, 1/72 model is in their latest catalogue.

[ShyTorque]

Obvious question is, could they still do the same job today? It might be a bit tight getting round the corner low enough in a Tornado.

[Always a Sapper]

Like to see the reaction when that landed and taxied in if thay had to do a divert to a German airfield some time soon :E

Nice paint job though :ok:

[500N]

Shy

BBMF Lancaster is still flying, of course it could be done :O
Just need a bomb :ok:


Always
I thought the same thing, a quick trip to Germany to say "Hi" :O

[Onceapilot]

ShyTorque: The Mohne was no problem in the GR1, it is wide open. However, the Eder is very tight, even in mid flap 250kts I could not get a very good run. RIP our brave wartime heroes.

OAP

[ShyTorque]

But have you flown the actual track required and got down to the height of 60 feet agl? From my own direct experience, at a mere 140 kts, I know it was no mean feat to get round the corner somewhat faster in a heavily laden Lancaster, whilst in a descent, especially at night.

They stopped us doing it later (something to do with some naughty chaps in a Wessex helicopter dropping black footballs on a Sunday afternoon).

Obviously, you wouldn't have been at 60' in a Tornado..... would you? ;)

[Onceapilot]

No, never:rolleyes:

OAP

[Treble one]

There is an 'upkeep' at IWM Duxford (no explosive, of course). One of the weapons dropped intrials apparently.

[500N]

Treble

Thanks

Wouldn't it be good if the BBMF Lancaster and the 70th Tornado
could do a fly past of the dams together :ok:

Might gte up the Krauts noses a bit but would still be fun.

[AR1]

What if a German unit celebrated with a reference to Coventry? - We've come a long way in 70 years haven't we..

[dctyke]

^^^^^^ Until I got down to your mail I was thinking the very same. Time to move on.

[goudie]

AR1

I agree

Without doubt the original members of 617 Sqdn carried out a courageous and expert piece of flying. I wonder what they would think seeing current members basking in their glory?
I speak as one who served on 617 when it re-formed with Vulcans. During a detachment to the USA we were publicly hailed as the 'Dambuster Boys'. It was most embarrassing.

[1.3VStall]

Only 70 years old? Junior squadron!

[Red Line Entry]

I wonder what they would think seeing current members basking in their glory?

It's not a queston of basking in their glory, it is the rightful celebration of pride in our forebears and highlighting the aspiration of the current generation to live up to such an example.

The army are replete with regiments adorned with momentos of previous victories (invariably over current allies), from the bearskin to the cockade, so why point the finger at 617 for continuing a fine miltary tradition?

And, yes, I'm an ex-Dambuster too!

[Wrathmonk]

What if a German unit celebrated with a reference to Coventry

Perhaps we should follow their lead and name our squadrons/wings after the individuals instead - they have the Richthoffen Wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_71), the Immelmann Wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufkl%C3%A4rungsgeschwader_51), the Boelcke Wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Boelcke) and the Steinhoff Wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_73)

All of these individuals were German Air Aces from both wars. Seems the Luftwaffe are happy to take pride in their forebears.

Next thing there will be calls to scrap Remembrance Day for fear of being accused of 'not moving on'.:ugh:

[500N]

"Without doubt the original members of 617 Sqdn carried out a courageous and expert piece of flying. I wonder what they would think seeing current members basking in their glory?
I speak as one who served on 617 when it re-formed with Vulcans. During a detachment to the USA we were publicly hailed as the 'Dambuster Boys'. It was most embarrassing."

Goudie

If it is that embarrassing, then why
- does 617 Squadron have a burst dam in the middle of the Squadron Crest ?
- does the current Tornado as pictured have a Dambuster Lancaster
an even bigger burst dam and the actual word "Dambuster" on the tail ?
- does the 617 Aircrew Association have Dambusters70 logo on the front page ?

[goudie]

You miss the point 500N. Nothing embarrassing about the logo. It depicts a historical moment in the Squadron's history
.I was proud to serve on 617. Following in their footsteps is one thing
The embarrassment was being hailed with a title, for which we were not worthy.

[TBM-Legend]

Well done 617 Sqn.:D

As a matter of interest the US Navy had ships named after victories over the British i.e. USS Valley Forge and I don't see those self-righeous types manning the battlements. Meanwhile don't forget Trafalgar Day, Taranto and the Spanish Armada!:eek:

[GreenKnight121]

Ticonderoga (2), Bunker Hill (2), Lexington (2), Saratoga (2), Cowpens (2), and many others.

All of which served beside RN ships... sometimes in the same formation.

You take pride in the achievements of your predecessors, and acknowledge the bravery and achievements of your enemies-turned-allies.

[AR1]

Personally I find it easy to rationalise military honours in battle, and the bravery of individual combatants, but here we glory an attack on a series of targets that had severe or potentially severe effects on 'civilians' - So I still think that glorifying such an event from the other side would be greeted with outrage from most in this country.

[CoffmanStarter]

Another pic ...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/562702_10151508682029885_1839715203_n.jpg

To mark 70 years since the formation of the Dambusters presenter Dan Snow unveiled new tail art on an RAF Tornado GR4, the aircraft flown by 617 Sqn today.

Image shows: TV Presenter Dan Snow returning from a flight in a 617 Sqn RAF Tornado.

Why Snow :ugh:

[cuefaye]

Late in the piece - Special, 617?

[Ken Scott]

Rather surprised to see a chap of Dan Snow's stature in a GR4, I'd have thought he was a might too big anthropometrically.

Have to say though that he looks a great deal more like a 'fighter pilot' than the other chap next to him! (or indeed most RAF aircrew).

[CoffmanStarter]

He also looks a tad green ... not just the flight suit :yuk:

[AR1]

The picture shows the reality of being a fighter pilot. - On the left the big strapping pilot of TV and film, just buckle the jet on his back and he's ready for business. .... On the right, the real thing. An ordinary man laden down with charts, books and checklists.

[Training Risky]

Personally I find it easy to rationalise military honours in battle, and the bravery of individual combatants, but here we glory an attack on a series of targets that had severe or potentially severe effects on 'civilians' - So I still think that glorifying such an event from the other side would be greeted with outrage from most in this country.

Revisionist history - are you David Irving by any chance?

It was total war - the civilians killed by 617 were acceptable collateral damage. We don't glorify the area bombing of Dresden - that is a different argument. We wouldn't expect the Luftwaffe today to glorify their raids on London and Coventry either.

[orca]

I think the amazing thing about the Tornado's paint scheme is that it has somehow made the fin look even bigger - or have they upgraded to a larger one to make the world's biggest RCS even more significant?

[Stitchbitch]

Nice, wonder if they asked him not to tuck his turning trousers into his boots..:E

Tail looks nice, I'm sure the UK's last surviving Dams raid veteran would approve.:ok:

[AR1]

Revisionist history - are you David Irving by any chance?

Absolutely not!

The Dams raid, was seen as necessary and it's reasoning accepted at the time by those who sanctioned the effort. That included the full impact of hitting that target - as apart from the effect on industrial production, the immediate collateral damage would be overwhelmingly civilian. Non of the targets were in fact military, and that in my view places the raid alongside those of the area bombing campaign, and as you point out - we don't celebrate that.

Which leads me to my thoughts in the original post.

[just another jocky]

Non of the targets were in fact military, and that in my view places the raid alongside those of the area bombing campaign.....

That's an interesting way of viewing the event. :rolleyes:

[phil9560]

You seem to be :)

[Training Risky]

Non of the targets were in fact military

mmm...but you have admitted that the targets had an industrial function. That places them on the list 'contributing to the German war effort' - therefore 'legal' in a war fought in 1943. The only reasons that dams and electric power production are on a no-strike list in 2013 are lack of political will caused by an ever-changing Western moral zeitgeist. If our backs are ever up against the wall in a future global war, would you really call the RAF Air Staff war criminals as they bomb the cr@p out of a dam/oil refinery/UNESCO site?? As I wrote earlier, illegality in war is very difficult to 'prove' as what world court is there to hear the charge and provide due process for the accused?

The targets of the area bombing campaigns were civilian population and logistical nodes and were a different target set to the dams. They were attacked for strategic reasons and Bomber Harris did get Churchill worried that he himself might face an international war-crimes court after the war...but hey ho we won!

[Pontius Navigator]

Wrath, how about the Bader Wing?

The only reasons that dams and electric power production are on a no-strike list in 2013 are lack of political will caused by an ever-changing Western moral zeitgeist.

Power production was on the target sets in both Bosnia and Iraq. As our present conflict is in a friendly country it follows that infrastructure is not a desirable target set.

I would agree that a dam would probably be off limits if it meant an innocent civilian population would die of thirst.

[just another jocky]

Dams are on the prohibited target list in the Geneva Convention, signed in 1948.

[BigX]

Have to say though that he looks a great deal more like a 'fighter pilot' than the other chap next to him! (or indeed most RAF aircrew).

However unimpressive any of us now or ever looked like, the correct term is 'Bomber pilot' not 'Fighter pilot'.

......making history, not movies, or some such.

[Ken Scott]

the correct term is 'Bomber pilot' not 'Fighter pilot'.


BigX: Whilst you are quite correct I put 'fighter pilot' in inverted commas specifically becuase it was a generalisation. To the general public someone stepping out of a 2 seat jet aircraft is a 'fighter pilot', someone climbing out of a Lancaster is a 'bomber pilot'. My use of the generic term was to make a generic point. Sorry. Next time I will try & be more pedantic.

[OutlawPete]

Cracking paint job and a cracking Sqn to serve on. I quite fancy one of these too...

PAINTING - dambusters70.com (http://www.dambusters70.com/painting.html)


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[bluetail]

Seen the original on the Squadron, its a fantastic painting