Jump/no Jump to Hong Kong

[gipilot]

Hi Guys,

7 years here in Cx and been hearing :"go to HKG, that's where the money is" for like a million times. I'm based in EU and starting to wonder if I have to make the big step. One of the facts are that by leaving your base you will never get it back, we all know that bases are a thing of the past but also I recently made some calculations and I still can't figure out why going to hkg is so beneficial to us.

So was wondering if some of you can give me your ideas on the questions I have about coming to hkg.

1. Is there any point in renting a house in hkg if there is no rent protection and the owner can jack up prices anyway he wants after a year?

2. The lucrative thing in hkg was buying property, with the latest stamp duty and housing prices, is there any point in buying something if you are an average person coming to hkg with no extra $$$?

3. Any of you guys that came from a base to hkg. Lifestyle wise...did your life improve? I guess 90% of us lived in a bigger house abroad and off course in hkg it's a (massive) difference, does that change in square feet influence you??

Really appreciate the tips and answers guys, Ciaoo

[DauphinDude]

Unless you are already a millionaire in Euros, good luck in finding affordable property. With all the new-found wealth among the Chinese, the prices are IN-SANE!

[fly123456]

The only way to get something out of your move to HK would be to buy a property, with the housing allowance paid by the company.

But you would have to come up with the 15% deposit, at the very least.
OR you could buy a boat / company owning a flat; then there's no requirement to pay the stamp duty (yet).

Am thinking about moving to HK as well, and have exactly the same doubt as you have.
The biggest issue of course is to never go back on a base in the future.

[flyingkiwi]

my 2 cents are, stay on the base HKG was where the money was, but that was before the government changed the rules on buying, The HKG package is only better when you use the housing to pay of a mortgage, now you would be looking at 20+% in taxes to purchase.

Either wait till these measures are removed or come for an expat life style, but currently you cant come to make more money, btw if you have kids then stay in Europe, schooling is really expensive that's if you can get your kids into a school

[Flying Clog]

Been in HK about 5 years after 5 years on a base (UK). Don't do it. The carrot has turned rotten. The only way to take the HK posting is to take the housing, live in rabbit hutch, and commute. End of. :=

[Flyer jazz]

Why do you think so many people want to get out of HKG? They are dying to get a base overseas. Trust me, even if the money can get you an above average lifestyle in HKG, the people are messed up. :ugh:

[flyingkiwi]

fly123456

you need way more than 15%, un less your a permanent resident the min you have to pay for a property is.

15% foreigner duty.
3-8.5% stamp duty, as non perm resident you pay 2x the stamp duty. this varies on the value of the purchase but I think maxes out on any thing over 5mil,
1% real estate agent fees,
Then you actually need the deposit. 30-50% depending on the value of your purchase.

As an idea of what your money will get you, 5mil will not get you 3 bedrooms in Tung Chung, it may just get you 3 bedrooms in DB but that will be in an old complex.

The grass was greener in HK but not anymore, unless your just a couple forget it. it may be fun for the first year but its a one way move.

What I would give to go on a base, I am as senior as a FO can get and would not be close to getting a FO base and when/if I pass a command course then a base will never happen. I was lucky that HK has provided me the means to build my dream house at home, problem is I cant live in it!

[White None]

Hi Gipilot,

I'm coming from the standpoint of already being in HKG and having been here for long enough not to be hit with the crazy taxes on traditional flat purchases, (ie not boats etc). Life's.... "OK"... for us, as a Kids 'grown and flown' couple. It certainly is waaay! less stressful than commuting, (done it).

Housing ... It certainly has been and remains a great way to make money for us, utilising the Housing Allowance, (genuinely sorry for those who now don't have it) to get going then looking for any more creative opportunities in the roller coaster market, (great fun and I haven't fallen off yet, but I go on the rides with seatbelts). That said, I've done the hard time in a smallish starter flat getting a good bite of a reasonable mortgage paid, it used to be easier, but I believe is still achievable now if you have a little aside. I WOULD NOT come for money alone unless you are going to a). commit for a while, (maybe you'd have the cash to buy in if you sold up?) and b). engineer buying somehow; renting is a game for those who don't care about or need cash for whatever reason. Starting from scratch, I'd advise doing the bank mortgage rules research yourself as they change all the time, (eg the recent 15% stamp duty theft tax has just reduced on first properties), many colleaugues/Ppruners will advise you eagerly, but it's you who'll get caught out and hit with penalties etc, so I guess I'm advising you to listen to advice but treat with caution and double check.

Schools .... look, it's do-able, lots of people do it but don't underestimate the drama involved, plenty of threads around; again, rules change ALL the time.

Pollution .... Standing by to be shutdown but if this was actually a killer then I would assume some sort of affect on average life expectancy?? Check out

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

NB... HKG No. 8, USA No. 51!! (82% of all statistics are made up on the spot, but at least we can trust the CIA......? ) Donning Tin-Hat ;) Areas vary, Tung Chung is not great in my experience, but some of the CX marathon runners live and train there so again .... overstated. I asked "The Good Doctor" once and his view was that more of our community had respiratory problems from plant allergies in Oz to local pollution, and as we know he was not a company spokesperson.

Lifestyle.... it's personal. We left a big house, acreage, pool etc and it was a change; but actually, if you embrace a different lifestyle it can be very easy and relaxing. Easy to create a comfy luxurious 'nest' and enjoy the city with all it has to offer. HKG is 3/4 countryside by area, some tough Hiking, great beaches etc. etc. so getting your outdoors fix is easy. Some of the 'HKG is dreadful' brigade may well predominantly just spend their layovers falling up and down Wan Chai in which case I concur. Not that there's anything wrong with that once in a while. :ok:

Overall; we came here to make money, we have. We enjoy it here, it's an easy life, but we ID travel a lot to see family. We set the expectation level at never getting another basing so anything else will be good news and a bonus, nearer retirement. Good Luck.

[AQIS Boigu]

gipilot,

I think you might have missed the boat this time...give it a year or two and property prices will come down and it will be more viable to buy then...also keep in mind that coming to HK - at least at the moment - is a one way ticket.

my 2 HK$ worth...

AB

[iceman50]

White None

A reasonably balanced post until this snippet

renting is a game for those who don't care about or need cash for whatever reason.

Many rent because the opportunity to buy was never possible for reasons too many to go into here. 30% deposits were the norm for a long time before the 95% + cash-back came along. The market is now re-adjusting to the true costs of buying.

[luckypkstar]

no money no talk,
if you don't have extra money,you could only stay in a 500sqa. Flat...just like living in a cage

but I thing CX will grant you money for rental,as I remember hkd50000 a month,which you could get a nice nice apartment or house to live in,pretty good.

anyway,good luck mate!!!

[White None]

iceman50

You make an entirely fair point. Getting on the ladder can be a challenge in the first place and timing is everything. I was referring to the guys who just spend years living in palatial appartements/houses by choice. I don't judge their decision but their actions state that they don't want the money, for whatever reason. I know quite a few who "temporarily" moved into a nice big place intending to buy "at the right time" or when they got, " sorted ". In many cases the problem then becomes having set the expectation level of the family or " her indoors". Sorry, or "him indoors"

[broadband circuit]

but I thing CX will grant you money for rental,as I remember hkd50000 a month,which you could get a nice nice apartment or house to live in,pretty good.

Get with the times, my good chap. CX stopped employing pilots on expat packages a few years ago. New joiners these days don't get a shadow of that amount.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

The company that I was talking too, were not offering in my opinion, not enough salary allowance or any relocation expenses.
Their logic was that they would be able to employ persons already living in and I assume already working HK (in or close to airport).

My question is: just what would your minimum package be to make it attractive to you and your family to relocate to HK...

Plus if you already live in HK, what would be a reasonable 2 br accomodation close to airport......and what would you expect as a package...as a HK resident.....

Many thanks,

glf

[Tornado Ali]

Under NO circumstances would I relocate to HK with a family unless I was offered the following:

1) salary at least 75K mo
2) housing allowance no less than 45K mo
3) full medical coverage (worldwide)
4) 6 weeks leave a year, plus business class travel for all family members to place of domicile twice a year
5) minimum 3 year contract, with gratuity of 2 months/per year payout at end
6) loss of license insurance, and all training costs covered
7) life insurance of at least 5 times yearly salary

That would be the minimum package to make ANY transfer to HK worthwhile. Less than that, don't even consider it.

[spleener]

White None:

Good Post.

tornado Ali:

You know you're worth more than that!:}

[Sqwak7700]

2 br accomodation close to airport

Problem is, HKG developers have a funny idea of what constitutes a "bedroom". Over here, a bedroom is usually only big enough to accommodate a small bed. Even master bedroom barely fit a small queen or double bed.

Even in Tung Chung, right next to the airport, 2-3 bedroom flats will run you from 5 to 10 million, sizes ranging from 500-1100sqft. That's right, over a million US for 1100sqft which includes elevator and common areas into the size calculations. Hence why other posters have recommended 45,000 as the minimum housing allowance per month.

And unless you are independently wealthy or want to place all your eggs on the HKG housing market, you can pretty much rule out buying. Non Permanent ID holders now get raped in stamp duty, and unless you put a substantial percentage down, you also pay very high mortgage insurance premiums.

It is the most expensive city in the world, fact. Think about that very carefully before you start making calculations.

[Klimax]

Quite comfortable lifestyle with wife (no kids), 1100+ sq.ft. mid-levels, worldwide insurance, 13th months pay, 1xY return eco ticket for family, 5 weeks annual leave.. 95K/month gross (-15% tax), 45K housing allowance - we'r renting. Not a lot of flying. Corporate.

Even if you were on say a pay of 70-75K/month u'd be alright.

Good luck bru,

[White None]

Klimax

Thankyou - Thankyou! for a post from someone from the real world who demonstrates that you don't have to be on a legacy package to live happily in HKG. Sooo many people pushing out the myth that less than, "the old days" = eating noodles in a shoebox full of colleagues. Sure, I know there are many difficulties and limitations out here but the likes of Gipilot who asked the Q starting this thread are intelligent people who need a feel for the place with any pointers to start researching the facts, (I imagine?), not the doom + gloom which your personal experience refutes.

[SMOC]

you don't have to be on a legacy package to live happily in HKG. Sooo many people pushing out the myth that less than, "the old days" = eating noodles in a shoebox full of colleagues

White none, just to be sure we're on the same page, you're not including local conditions in your statement are you? I read it as 70-75k plus 45k housing which icadets won't see until command 15yrs away (95k+24k pilot allowance - both taxed at 15%) 45k housing is the bare minimum I would guess to live comfortably in expat type accommodation.

[gipilot]

Hey guys,

Thanks I really appreciate all the tips and comments, who said we Cx'ers couldn't have a normal discussion on Pprune??

Unfortunately I guess my timing in CX is completely off. Careerwise(15+years to command) and HKG Housing(astronomical prices), but hell at least I've still got a job and living on a base, you just can't have it all in this life.

I've read some comments and been hearing stuff like, come whenever the market crashes etc etc. I've read much about the '07/'08 market crash in the U.S. and also Ireland. My question to anyone who has a bit of experience or knowledge in this: Isn't HKG a complete different story, in the sense that it's the Mainlanders dumping HARD PAPER cash on the table instead of mortgaged money? So technically.....it's impossible for the HKG market to really crash due to FINANCIAL reasons( unless off course, SARS or anything of that sorts returns)??? I mean the market kept growing even during the 07/08 crisis.

And second. Having a wife and kids, I just could not imagine living in something smaller than 1200sqft. Where in HKG would be a nice location to have such a place for under 7Mill HKD??

Thanks dudes.

[ASH1111]

Can't be had, even in Tung Chung. My 3 bed flat is 1200 sqft in a cheap area, and is over 8M, before your stamp duty

[White None]

It CAN be done.

I tried a search of property in South Lantau entered 5-7 mill, and up came a few village houses well in excess of the sizes being discussed.

It's not everyone's cup of tea, but ask the people who live there and they think the rest of us are mad. I would take a trip to the Mui Wo Real Estate offices and setup a day of visits, see if it is for you. There are the villages all along the south coast with a different flavour to all and an array of prices. Maybe someone can help with more specifics or other similar areas. There are sometimes cards on the CX City noticeboard from S Lantau specialists. There are Mortgage issues, valuation complications and you need to research the area and transport, but as I said, some people love it.

[Tornado Ali]

difficult to get financing for a village house at the moment (not impossible, just difficult). Also, there is issues with title that need to be assured prior to finance. You will also need a car if you live out there, which is another cost that has to be factored into your 'baseline' costings (never mind the equivalent of $9 us/gal).

[SMOC]

It CAN be done.

It's not everyone's cup of tea,

That's an oxymoron basically saying you can get what you want if you live where you don't want:confused:

Which schools do people use living there?

I lived there while having some renovations done. Hated it. It's too under developed, Sai Kung is better for country living but $$$ and miles from work (car again).

To live in HK you must sacrifice something of your Western lifestyle unless you can get a housing allowance to cover it. Period.

[blade]

ASH, correct..Tung Chung ,DB where as before there was a 30 to 40% difference 15 years ago,now we are looking at like for like pricing (within reason) on the majority of similar type properties..

Tung Chung is not cheap anymore!!

[ASH1111]

Whoa. Best give good information. Village Houses are 50% mortgages ONLY!!

Very, very difficult to get done in this environment. In addition, any South Lantau Village House that is only 7Mil, will be either EXTREMELY "local", or in need of 2-3Mil in renos.

As previously said CAN'T BE DONE.

[Lowkoon]

Gents, thats 50% of bank valuation remember? So say you find your dream village house, complete with dogs and flooded septic tank, for $6 mil, bank will value it at $5 maximum, assuming you dont have permanent residence, 20% duty on the sales price, you only need 3.5mil for the deposit, and 1mil for the tax! Bargain!!!! Do most new joiners have 450,000 euro to splash on a deposit?

[Pogie]

So technically.....it's impossible for the HKG market to really crash due to FINANCIAL reasons( unless off course, SARS or anything of that sorts returns)???

That's exactly why it will crash... financial reasons! Right now, there's lots of support keeping the HKG housing market up, but interest rates are low. When the interest rates in the US go up, you'll see a drop in HKG real estate prices. Personally, I wouldn't be jumping in as a first time buyer right now.

[airdualbleedfault]

GI pilot, you have kids, do them a favour and do some research on pollution , rather than believing the BS the HK government spews forth. For example the life expectancy argument , if you started smoking when you were 40 or 50 you probably wouldn't die of lung cancer, well the pollution didn't really start til 10-15 years ago, so we will see how good it is in 20 years, meanwhile 12-1500 people die in HK each year and it's getting gradually worse, you will be playing Russian roulette with your family's lives.
Here's a good place to start : Hedley environmental index, the guy that started this recently returned to the UK due to his health deteriorating in HK.
The fact that nearly every poster here only talks about money says it all really.
Good luck with your decision

[boxjockey]

WhiteNone,

Sorry, but you did read that Klimax was on a total package of over 140K/mnth, right? Compare that with a CX new joiner on 45K, and you are comparing apples and hand grenades!!

box