INS Viraat / HMS Hermes still soldiering on

[keesje]

It is 60 yrs old now and will retire around 2020, nearly 70 yrs old..

Soon the INS will take into service an old rebuild Soviet carrier too, with Mig29Ks they have been operating for some time.

2 New ships, Vikrant class are being build.

I guess the British involvement in this Viraat must still be major?

Its all British, except the people (?)

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo139/girishnaik7/my%20album/ATgAAADpVaqm3uHTIhi4F00jpZksW6E-5JR.jpg

In the new Asian weapons race, it makes sure India has operational knowledge & experience of carrier operation that the Chinese are now starting to build.

Again much faster then anyone thought / hoped...

[althenick]

Quite impressive really A sixty year old Aircraft carrier with 30 year old Harriers and 40 year old sea kings. At sea and most probably fully operational. What are the Indians doing that we can't :confused:

[just another jocky]

Spending new money on old kit?

[Dysonsphere]

Spending new money on old kit?


Maybe so but at least there at sea with a fixed wing carrier group unlike the UK for the forseable future. (Thats if the F35 ever works)

[Lordflasheart]

Spending new money on old kit?

Spending our money on new kit !

[keesje]

An informal tour, including the mess :)

INS Viraat - Indian Aircraft Carrier ( Video on Request ) - YouTube

[just another jocky]

Maybe so but at least there at sea with a fixed wing carrier group unlike the UK for the forseable future. (Thats if the F35 ever works)

But surely it's their capability that's important.

Pointless having a floating curry palace if it can't influence events.

Anyone know the capabilities?

[Courtney Mil]

Anyone know the capabilities?

FRS51 armed with Magic - probably not that great on the fixed wing front.

[CoffmanStarter]

Rather excitable chaps don't you think :rolleyes:

Are my eyes deceiving me or did I see Command Aaddeshwa "Sharkey" Ward in the background ...

Aaddeshwa ... Indian Male Christian name meaning God :E

[Not_a_boffin]

That's half their remaining SHAR force on deck in the piccy, which are allegedly getting Derby from the Red Sea Pedestrians which makes them BVR capable. They have the Helix variant with an AEW radar and they can run some mid-80's vintage SeaKings and Helix in the ASW role.

Which means they can at least have a go at keeping MPA a reasonable way off and is more than we can do right now at any sort of distance from land.

However, availability is apparently a bit of a mare for both cabs and ship. The pic may show her at sea with a deckful, question is how long she could stay there.

It is also likely that the stability standards of Viraat have been eroded over the years. It doesn't mean she's about to roll over, but it does mean that the amount of damage sustained before she would be lost is probably a bit less than it was in RN service and a lot less than what QEC (irrespective of relative size) is designed to survive.

She'll be carrying a bit more stress in her structure as well, which won't help reduce incidences of fatigue cracking, which can hit availability as well.

[Speedbird48]

Magnificent picture but I feel it may be a little out of date?? I was on a liner this time last year parked alongside the carrier and it was clearly marked as a museum ship?? It had a Sea Hawk and a Sea King parked on deck with a few weapons as exhibits.

Our captain, a Brit, did not even mention that it was the old Hermes nor its Falklands history even though it was the anniversary of the campaign??

Speedbird 48.

[Not_a_boffin]

The ship you were berthed next to is the ex-Vikrant (ex HMS Hercules) which has been retired for a good 15 years or more now.

File:Vikrant Museum Ship.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vikrant_Museum_Ship.jpg)

[Speedbird48]

Not a Boffin,

Thank you sir, I stand corrected. It looked to be in good shape but would not take visitors. The Sea Hawk needed a new canopy as the Bombay sun had not done it any good.

Glad the Hermes still has life in her and hope the UK doesn't have to borrow it back again for another Falklands trip??

Speedbird 48.

[Lower Hangar]

Was at BAe Dunsfold 1984-1987 and we did the integration of Magic I & II on the FRS51 - very interesting missile mechanisation. We also did the A/G trials on their own HUD software (INSHAR 5) - again very interesting including a runway denial weapon BAP 100. Subsequently did ship trials with Viraat (we were based at Dabolam (?) airport at Goa which was also an IN Air Base - UK aircraft on the South side of the airport, Soviet aircraft on the North side. The BAe trials pilot (Taylor Scott) embarked in an FRS51 and then a T8 for ramp launches etc with Indian indigenous weapons. Great trip and good hotel (Bogmaloo Beach Hotel).

[XV277]

LUSH (Limited Update for Sea Harrier) added a new Elta radar and Derby capability

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10029.0

http://livefist.********.co.uk/2010/02/photos-limited-upgrade-sea-harrier-lush.html

Twin missile rails, but the original small fuel tanks

[peter we]

Its in the middle of a refit.

INS Viraat has life left, says Commanding Officer - The Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/ins-viraat-has-life-left-commanding-officer/article4493518.ece)

[Lower Hangar]

Tks - wondered about that strange 'grey' radome

[Wensleydale]

A WREN went to see the MO with a sensitive complaint....

"I think that I have got Hermes".

"Don't you mean Herpes?"

"No - I think I'm a carrier".

:oh:

[keesje]

Some nice pictures;

INS Viraat Aircraft Carrier of Indian Navy (http://defenceforumindia.com/ins-viraat-aircraft-carrier-of-indian-navy-1325)

It seems the Indian navy refused used UK Harriers.

IMO the rewinged variants would have been more capable then the sea Harriers for use this decade..

http://defenceforumindia.com/jh4cz/assets/SeaKing-INS_Viraat-.jpg

The INS is in a hurry to modernize its carrier assets. The Sea Harrier is an excellent interceptor, but the Chinese move on..

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2012/11/25/323443-china-lands-fighter-jet-on-liaoning-aircraft-carrier.jpg

[glojo]

That's half their remaining SHAR force on deck in the piccy, which are allegedly getting Derby from the Red Sea Pedestrians which makes them BVR capable. They have the Helix variant with an AEW radar and they can run some mid-80's vintage SeaKings and Helix in the ASW role.

Which means they can at least have a go at keeping MPA a reasonable way off and is more than we can do right now at any sort of distance from land.

However, availability is apparently a bit of a mare for both cabs and ship. The pic may show her at sea with a deckful, question is how long she could stay there.

It is also likely that the stability standards of Viraat have been eroded over the years. It doesn't mean she's about to roll over, but it does mean that the amount of damage sustained before she would be lost is probably a bit less than it was in RN service and a lot less than what QEC (irrespective of relative size) is designed to survive.

She'll be carrying a bit more stress in her structure as well, which won't help reduce incidences of fatigue cracking, which can hit availability as well.
Nice to see such an old ship still operational but I dread to think what condition she is in. My memory takes me back to 1963 when a flange in the bolier room on HMS Centaur had problems and this killed everyone on duty in that space (I believe there were 5 deaths) Hermes is the same class ship and this is now half a century on and she must have an awful problem with corrosion.

Would we have removed all of the catapult systems and more to the point when we sold hermes to the Indian Navy would we hand over all the drawings, paper work etc regarding her previous fitment of cats and traps?

I believe China purchased an Australian carrier just to get access to this design information but that might just be an old sea story that I have been told.

uick drying cement

[Not_a_boffin]

When Hermes was sold in 85, I'd be astonished if any design info pertinent to her previous catapult and arrester fit still existed, let alone was transferred!

As for the Chinese, there's an interesting article in Jane's Navy International from the end of May last year that stitches together how they got to where they are. It suggests that the ex- HMAS Melbourne was purchased for scrap and on arrival in China, the PLAN were invited by the scrapyard to have a gander, which was swiftly followed by an order to remove all useful items for further inspection and research.

Whether true or not, doesn't really matter. The principles of design and operation are known and in open source. After that it is just a question of engineering through the problem, which is a question of time and money. Where you tend to get held up is figuring out either the metallurgical tricks or the dynamic elements like hook skip. Access to the kit or elements of design info lowers that time or cost.

[glojo]

As usual my thanks for your explanation and it looks like the Melbourne saga might have some credibility. I am guessing when the Chinese bought that ship for scrap they were not interested in the huge amounts of asbestos that was used to clad all the 'hot bits'

Your reference to hook skip did not go unoticed :ok:

I am guessing the folks buying that ship for scrap were possibly the same people that purchased the Russian carrier for use as a casino? :ooh:

[Bengo]

The Indians have afforded that which the RN has been short of for many years - lots of sailors to do chipping, painting and general upkeep. People can be relatively cheap in India.

They also have a widespread capability to keep making things that have not been made eleswhere for years and to near-enough copy anything they want if it's low- moderate tech engineering skill you are after. The cost of support for a "simple" ship like Viraat will be pretty low in India compared with trying to do it in Europe or the States.

Hermes was also built pretty heavily and the design dates from WW2 incorporating early Far East experience with kamikaze attacks -- the deep beams below the roof needed to support the armoured deck and the armoured box round the machinery spaces have to be seen to be believed. There will be plenty of steel to stand a bit of corrosion. The boilers will be different but Admiralty 3-drum boilers are pretty simple and it's easy to copy any bits needing renewal.

That is not to belittle their high-tech skills either, but those are less widespread and not much needed for the ship.

N

[GreenKnight121]

Glojo...

The catapults and arresting gear had been removed from Hermes when she was converted to a commando carrier at Devenport Dockyard 1 March 1971 to 18 Aug 1973, and in 1978 that bloody great ski jump was built over where the catapults used to be!

She was sold to India in 1986, and delivered in 1987.


Vikrant DID have a steam catapult and arresting gear when completed for, and sold to, India in 1961... and the Indian Navy used them until they fitted a ski jump to her in 1989.


So India did have a set of arresting gear and 1 BS4 steam catapult, as well as at least the maintenance & repair info for them.

[Mk 1]

Yes, the former HMAS Melbourne was sold for scrap and towed to China. It was tied up for well over a year in China before being broken up. Shortly thereafter there was a deck outline on one of their naval airfields (?) identical in size and dimension to the ship.

[tucumseh]

When Hermes was sold in 85,

My memory may be wrong, but I think she was part of a trade offset deal or something similar.

I do know that the Indians ran rings round us. In the final days it was announced that the agreement meant everything on board at 1200 on the handover day was deemed to belong to the Indians, and it had to be serviceable. The inventory was circulated in the FAA at the last minute and we had to resort to making sure they didn't get the Secret stuff as there was no time to assess everything. A few months later, they had the gall to send kit back claiming it didn't work, and we were liable for repair costs. It turned out it did work, it was just at a standard the Indians weren't allowed, so they didn't recognise it for what it was. (SHAR avionics). We had to de-mod it and return it, which left SHARs short.

The Indian brass were wined and dined at Culdrose. The Ward Room put on an impressive array of fodder. One gold-endowed gentleman was heard to say "******* curry, I wanted fish and chips."

[SpazSinbad]

Story variations on a theme about former aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne in China:

Bensted Home Pages: HMAS Melbourne after Decommissioning (http://users.qld.chariot.net.au/~dialabull/r21history3.html)

"...In February 1985, Melbourne was sold to China for breaking up, and arrived at a Shanghai yard in 1985 according to the issue of Far Eastern Economic Review dated 20th. October, 1994, where she lay undisturbed except for regular visits by PLA engineers and may still be in existence (1994). It is clear from an article entitled "The Aviation Dream of the Chinese People" that appeared in the July, 1994 issue of Shidian, a semi-official magazine of the China News Service, that PLA(N) officers are being trained in large ship handling courses and flight deck operations.

Melbourne was finally moved to the northern port city of Dalian where she was broken up. There have been several reports of the Chinese reconfiguring a runway to resemble an aircraft carrier deck for flight deck landing training by PLA pilots. Additionally, in 1987 an F-8 Chinese fighter was launched from a steam catapult at the Lushun naval air base near Dalian according to the Far Eastern Economic Review.
A US private sector intelligence agency believes that the Chinese Navy may be using an old aircraft carrier, HMAS Melbourne, to help develop its own carrier and boost Chinese military capability. Stratfor (Strategic Forecasting) based in Austin, Texas, said the Peoples Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) had acquired three different types of carrier to study for development of their own capability. One of them was the HMAS Melbourne.

On 13 January 2001, the online Australian magazine in Melbourne "The Age.com.au", indicated that China has been using the flight deck of the former Australian aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne to train its pilots ahead of the launch of its first locally-made aircraft carrier. Quoting unnamed sources, the Hong Kong based independent Chinese language Ming Pao daily reported that the Chinese 4.8 billion yuan ($A892 million) aircraft carrier is slated to be in the water in 2003, although it will take another two years to have it fully ready for service. There is Satellite imagery of the reconstructed Melbourne flight deck attached to the end of a runway in northern China. The angled flight deck centerline is aligned with the main runway and aircraft were catapulted out over the salt pan and bay. Although this claim was made in 2001,..."

[SpazSinbad]

This photo (with extra text excerpt below) used to be on the old version of the 'dialabull' page. Anyhoo...

Bensted Home Pages: HMAS Melbourne after Decommissioning (http://users.qld.chariot.net.au/~dialabull/r21history3.html)

“...(Satellite image of the reconstructed Melbourne flight deck attached to the end of a runway in northern China. The angled flight deck centerline is aligned with the main runway and aircraft were catapulted out over the salt pan and bay)...”

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewerAlbum/R21practiceDeckChinaSatPhotoAGEed.gif

[keesje]

Would we have removed all of the catapult systems and more to the point when we sold hermes to the Indian Navy would we hand over all the drawings, paper work etc regarding her previous fitment of cats and traps?

I believe China purchased an Australian carrier just to get access to this design information but that might just be an old sea story that I have been told.

China bought an old Russian carrier, (build a land version of it for training! http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0910/25_66_b1e822705d59de7.jpg ) took it apart & rebuild it. They seem to do better then anybody thought. Of course they are building some new ones too. EAW aircraft etc. are being developped too.



BBC News - China lands J-15 jet on Liaoning aircraft carrier (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20483716)

India is building 2-3 new aircraft carriers, but it is going slowly.
Work on aircraft carrier to restart by month-end - The Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/work-on-aircraft-carrier-to-restart-by-monthend/article4337007.ece)

India also bought a former Russian carrier, just like China, the INS Vikramaditya, formerly Admiral Gorshkov. The Russians have been refitting it and training the Indian Navy prior to its handover. Including flight lessons on 2 seater mig 29Ks. The ship seems to have had engine trouble so the entry into service has been delayed..
MiG-29 KUB fighter lands on Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya [ex-

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8265/39119247116335294389414.jpg