How do you cope with Captains from HELL?!?!

[CFIT]

Being on the right seat sometimes aren't quite fun when you are stuck flying with skippers from hell. Just wondering how you guys cope with this kind of situation.:confused:

[411A]

Try...."yes SIR!" each time...should help...?!?
Only had trouble with ONE co-pilot in 38 years of professional flying.....and the company demoted the guy...out the door, onto the street after "many complaints".
OTOH, "some" Captains can be rather overbearing....these guys need to be expunged from the ranks, for the good morale of everyone.

[Roadtrip]

Be extra nice to them. It drives them crazy. Oh, be sure to ask them about their families. Be sure to probe into the reasons for failure of their last three marriages, then tell them that you don't think that the problem was with their wives.

[skyvan]

I have found that the only way to deal with a difficult Captain is to stick exactly to SOP, and to keep to myself.
After a couple of days of being ignored, most of them break down a bit, especially if their SOPs aren't that great.
If they really are so difficult as to be a possible danger, then a quiet chat to the Professional Standards rep on your fleet will often help.
The last resort is to avoid flying with them, advise the Chief Pilot that you have a personality clash (without fingering the culprit) and request that you not be rostered with them for a period of six months or so.
Good luck.

P.S. Final last resort is a baseball bat behind the carpark. Keeps things nice and quiet for about 3 months.:D

[Shadowpurser]

When they ask if your coming for a beer in the bar tell them your washing your hair!!!!!!

[Pegasus77]

As stated above... stick to SOPs; as long as things are not unsafe you only have a few bad days. Too bad for you, not everybody can be your best friend.
If the "hell" you're referring to comes from captains who are unsafe... You can always take control if needed, or get out of the aircraft while on ground. It is your professional duty to do so.

[BTB]

Change companies. The good ones usually don`t employ earsoles.:p

[Only A Few More Seasons]

Good old CRM seems it really works, don't it?

Probably wrong - usually am!;)

[mustafagander]

CFIT, that's a tough one. All I can suggest is to be 110% kosher on SOPs, R/T and Air Leg rules. It helps to be respectful and polite, if at all possible.
NEVER withdraw co-operation, that path leads to real danger and your pax deserve better.
Personally, I've found very few turds over a fairly long multi crew career.

[Pegasus77]

That's an important point: Never withdraw your cooperation, and be very beware of the "I told you so, John"-syndrome.

P77

[power lever]

A very interesting post. There are a few captains from hell in my company and they totally destroy all morale. I also think it is a bad position to be in because one day the nice F/O won't help them out of a hole which the captain is digging for himself.
I just wished that these captains would crawl back under the stone they came from.:mad:

[Human Factor]

Fairly rare,

Be polite, stick to SOPs, give them no reason to 'have a go'. Don't compromise on safety though. If you see something you don't like, say so.

[whats_it_doing_now?]

I agree with sticking to SOP's makes your life easier. Quite often difficult guys will not let you fly the aeroplane the way you want to, and they are picky over little things, that to be frank, don't matter. I just go for the quiet life and avoid getting into one-upmanship which i think is dangerous. Personally, as long as its safe and it isn't going to make me famous, I'll go along with it. I may not think its the best course of action, but there are many ways of doing this job, and some are better than others.

[Slickster]

Agree with most of the posts here. Stick to SOPs, but Know them backwards. These kinds of captains usually haven't updated their manuals for yrs, and then they become intimidated by the fact that you know the job, then generally give you a bit of legroom.
If all else fails, tell them what you think. They might be quite mortified to find that out. If that fails go upstairs, and good riddance to them.;)

[Lou Scannon]

The speciality of these captains is in making the individual first officer believe that they are the only idiot and that all the other FO's are fine.

So: As has been said, know your SOP's like crazy! Read up on the tech stuff until it's coming out of your ears.

Then: Talk confidentially to all the other FO's about this person (Knowing that you are not alone will help tremendously), collect as much information on him as you can, particularly where his weaknesses are.

Then, when you fly together you will be the one exuding confidence, knowledge and co-operation. It also helps to pretend that you are line checking him-without any debriefs of course!

The end result will be that the operation will be safe, you will become a better pilot and he will inevitably crack!

If you have to have an argument, do it away from the aircraft on a non-flying subject. Find out what his weakness or hobby is and then denigrate it in front of as many people as possible including the victim. It will unerve him and he will have no comeback-as clearly you had no idea that he was one of those pratts that collected train numbers etc etc.

The best of luck!

[BLEKE]

Talked about this in a recent CRM course, one thing not to do is what a F/O on a flight to Anchorage did after the CPT had been on his case during the whole flight, on the visual approach he noticed that the captain was lined up with the parallel taxiway, didn't say a thing and God landed on this taxiway.
After the investigation they were both moved right one seat.

[power lever]

bleke,

you are spot on, this is excatly the sort of thing I mentioned earlier.

The only thing is with my company is that our SOPs are not that good, so some of our captains take it upon themselves to make them up as they go along. Which means one day it is captain X's SOPs and the next day it is captain Y's SOPs.

Spoken to the management about this and nothing happens!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I am trying to leave ASAP.

[AOG007]

Get friendly with your rostering/scheduling department, and make sure they shaft the Captain!

Amazing what scheduling can do to a crew members life!

:D :D :D :D

[Pegasus77]

Just returned from 2 days of flying with a true captain from hell. His crewconcept was strictly restricted to himself as a crewmember, SOPs were very important... for the FO, he himself allows any deviation, without prior notice.
My survival these 2 days, as I stated before, was SOPs... Everytime he deviated from something in the book, I questioned him, or in an approach, gave a standard callout.

Although he treated me like sh*t, safety was never compromised. Setting goals/ gates and sticking to SOPs prevented me from the "see I told you" happening.

He was mega-unfriendly, really insulting at times, didn't give a damn about my thoughts, so I had my 2 days from hell.
But I survived, and so did my passengers and my cabin crew (isn't that all that counts?). I chose not to p*ss him off and start a war against him. I did my job, and I just hope I'll NEVER fly with this captain ever again.

My lesson learned? SOPs are the best weapon in the game, if I stick to them, there is hardly any room for comments; otherwise you can prevent him from doing any dangerous stuff, by referring to them.

And like Lou Scannen said... afterwards I met a colleage in the crewlounge who once spent 5 days with the guy on a tour. Having lunch together and being able to be understood by a colleage, who knew what I was talking about, and then being able to laugh about everything REALLY helped!

P77

[411A]

..uh well Pegasus77...don't you mean "his" cabin crew and "his" passengers....as HE signed for the flight, you are there just to help out. Don't get carried away...if you have a disagreement with the guy, go to the Chief Pilot where you "should" find relief...as you are NOT in charge.
Don't like to upset your applecart, but the company assigned the guy as COMMANDER...not you.:D

[fireflybob]

Let's remember that it takes two to tango!

You cannot expect to hit it off with every other human being that you fly with. I am not defending any captain who is obnoxious but remember that he/she is the commander whether you like it or not and you are obliged to obey all lawful commands.

How about turning the question around and asking how (as commander) you would deal with an FO who was "from hell"?

The last thing you want on the flight deck is any form of punch-up. Whatever you do maintain your professional position throughout>

[Pegasus77]

411A... I think your reply is a bit old fashioned. It indeed takes two to tango. My job as an FO is not just to sit next to the captain and learn from his infinite wisdom, but to be an active crewmember.

I never questioned the guys 4th stripe, I only questioned him when he deviated from SOPs... or are you saying that he should be allowed to do that, just because he's the boss??

I feel it as MY airplane as well, when flying, just as they are MY pax as well and MY cabin crew. The only things I express with stating that is my teamspirit and a little sense of responsibility.

I agree with you that an airplane is not a democracy, but I think an aircrew should be a team to work properly. If you have to win a discussion just because you have the most stripes on board.... think again.

P77

[holden]

As 411 and fireflybob quite rightly point out,there are just as many "difficult" First Officers(and pursers for that matter) as there are Captains.CRM has been directly responsible for this new breed of co-pilot who thinks the flight is conducted by mutual consent.Actually,CRM was never intended to bring this about;it was designed to promote crew intra-communication and coordination,not promote democracy.Unfortunately,the purpose behind CRM has become diluted over the years and people have interpreted its raison d etre to suit their own needs and aspirations.Which is why we have some first officers who refer to the flight as "my flight",and pursers who say "my passengers" and "my cabin".
I flew with some "difficult" Captains in my time as a co-pilot but I never let this color my perception of just what my role was;a co-pilot,there to assist the aircraft commander as best I could.It seems that the quiet self-assertion of yesteryear has transformed itself into the arrogant one upmanship of the "me me" generation..thankfully in only a minority of cases.

If you come across a truly awkward SOB in the left seat,the only option you have as a co-pilot is to request not to fly with the guy again.And tell him what you´re doing and why,AFTER THE FLIGHT.
As for taking control of the a/c,thats a definite no.... unless the guy is heading for a mountain or he´s in the middle of a cardiac arrest.Not because you dont think he should be Captain,or he´s not strictly adhering to SOP´s.SOP´s werent invented to give the co-pilot a pretext to take control...after all,we dont all hit the glide with gear down and intermediate flap..its not the end of the world after all.Might be a noise-abatement approach...

[Son Of Piltdown]

I found a neat little way to bring some individuals down to size . . .

I used to invent 'contacts' that weren't there. He soon quietened down when he thought his eyes were going!

"Contact eleven o'clock, left to right just above the horizon"

Response "I can't see it"

Reply: "It's just gone behind that cloud"

Do that two or three times on a sector and you get listened to with more respect.

Naughty, but it used to brighten up my day!

[Pegasus77]

Holden, I hope you don't refer to me, mentioning the word "arrogant". If you did, you most probably haven't read my post thoroughly.

I never questioned the skippers authority, I just did not like him. And the easiest way to deal with such a situation is to stick to SOPs. SOPs are meant to make flying safer, and to create an environment where 2 total strangers can work together easily.

Questioning the captain why he deviates does not mean overtaking control. It only (and literally) means asking "hey why do you do that?", to which the captain can respond. Me myself, I deviate from some SOPs sometimes (like intercepting the glide from above, like you mentioned), because I have a very good reason to do so, and when doing so, I always make my intentions clear to the captain.
Asking a question about the deviation brings back communication into the cockpit, and makes both pilots instead of just one understand what is going on exactly and it keeps the concepts of both pilots aligned. Nothing wrong with that. My wild guess is that that is what good CRM is all about.

I don't think an airplane should be a democracy. There is a very good reason why the captain is the captain, and all the rest of the crew operate under his command.
Also, there is a very good reason for a co-pilot to be on board. Not only should they assist the captain, the are to even represent him when he is absent.
In my company copilots are trained up to captains proficience, and are treated as captains-to-be.

When I was referring to "my" aircraft, it never occurred to me that a captain like you could be p*ssed off or could feel his authority undermined. Really, I would love all people on board to regard themselves part of a team, who all together work towards one and the same goal, which is operating a safe and comfortable flight for "OUR" passengers.

P77

[CaptainSquelch]

One of the thing I learned from an old instructor (and I mean old: he started flying two years before WW2) early in my carreer was that if you ever had a disagreement with the Captain you should not try a frontal attack. You're destined for defeat if ever you try that. First you'll have to face the Captain, than the company, than the government. Or if you are lucky you'll face your Maker before that.
The only way to work out a disagreement with this rare breed is a by asking questions.

"Captain, can I ask you a question." "Of course my boy, what is it?" "Sir, I was tought to land with the gear down; have you diliberately left it up or are you tired of life and trying to kill us all in the process?" :D

This line, in a new style of the 21st century, adjusted to the circumstances might still work. It puts the ball in his field and he'll have to return it.
A statement attacking his (assumed) flying skills or his (appointed) authority will certainly not work.

Now that I'm one of these stubborn old basterds I am still convinced that this approach works much better than the smart young Effo who "tries to teach his father how to .... ahh .... reproduce"

By the way A411 and P77, you two sound like a good team.

Have fun
Sq

[West Coast]

Chocolate ex-lax mixed into food dissolves nicely,however still potent. He will be too busy with other problems to bother you.

[captchunder]

Don't start a conversation about politics or religion!

[Check 6]

The FAA has an Advisory Circular (training document) that deals with this subject. It is titled Aeronautical Decision Making. The document number is 60-22.

This can be found on the FAA web site. www.faa.gov (http://) and click on "Advisory Circulars." Then insert 60-22 after clicking on "by number" under "Current ACs" under "Advisory Circulars."

[JW411]

West Coast:

"Chocolate ex-lax mixed into food.....".

A much more subtle method is a couple of drops of Visine eye drops in his/her coffee. It is absolutely indetectable and takes a couple of hours to work but it should keep them on the throne for days!

[corner speed]

My experience has been that a lot of those "Captains" are really
weak pilots. They seem to try to hide their insecurities by being a real hard-ass to their co-pilots. You can take their crap until it
becomes a safety issue and when it does, talk to other copilots who flew with him before. If they had similar bad experiences
with him you can build a case against him and turn his ass in. Changes are he/she might already be on the Union/Company
sh*tlist. Good luck.

[Captain Stable]

Much of what has already been posted I agree strongly with. Permit me to summarise a few salient points.

DO NOT:-
Try to do this by yourself
Withdraw co-operation
Let him hang himself by allowing him to make stupid mistakes
Suspend your professionalism
Do anything even remotely detrimental to safety (including ex-lax, eye-drops etc.)
Behave on stopovers in a manner that will invite a frosty atmosphere onto the flight deck next day
Allow yourself to become known as a crewroom whinger/moaner. Talk to people by all means, but make sure they are people who can address the problem.

DO:-
Make sure your own procedures and skills and knowledge are as high as you can get them
Stay courteous and professional at all times
Accept that, as the appointed commander, he, not you, is legally responsible for this aircraft, all crew and passengers
Keep communication going
Consult on the quiet with other FO's (you'll not be the only one with problems with a poor skipper)
Have a word with your union rep, Flight Safety Officer, Fleet Manager, or a senior Training Captain

[Ignition Override]

Captain Stable: excellent points, but in the US, going to the company for fairly minor SOPA deviations from the book, if only that instead of a personality conflict, can make you look like an Enemy Collaborator, depending on whether you go straight to a Chief Pilot and your corporate culture etc.

Of course, we have some cowardly pilots at a certain unpopular crewbase in the state of Minnesota (the base, where some flight attendants quietly devour the Captain's crew meal while enroute on a 744 to Narita: heard it first hand) will secretly write you up for telling a dirty joke. Yes. Very unique corporate culture in such an "enlightened" state.

On the somewhat lighter side, a possible problem with telling about three Captains that you had a very awkward 2-day trip with a certain guy, was that at least one of them might 'jokingly' say to you on purpose, "I hear you are flying with %#@", just as Captain %#@ is walking by or mutter something to four other guys. Many nice guys can forget their normal diplomacy after they know your 'secret', especially when the guy (or gal) with whom you have a problem, has many more years seniority than you have.

Trust almost nobody with the actual name of the person, and tell your union safety person but avoid any talk to the company (that can be really cowardly and chicken****: some guys think it will make them look better, as can happen with backstabbers in the military) unless absolutely necessary. Many of our older Captains are bigger blabbermouths than a bunch of old ladies (like my ex mother-in-law) at the local "Beethoven Club" and other small groups run by fussy, very old busybodies (like in BBC's "Keeping Up Appearances")-no kidding about many of our Captains.

By the way, many years ago either the FO or FE on the ill-fated Western Airlines DC-10 at Mexico City knew about construction on the runway, but the Captain had told the FO something like "If I need anything from you, I'll rattle your cage". The other pilots kept quiet and maybe assumed that the Captain would spot the problems on the runway? There must be many cases of this during past accidents. The DC-8 over Portland, the Jetstream 31 at Hibbing, MN...

[Captain Stable]

IO, the airline you quote appears to have some very significant problems. They appear directly to affect safety, and I would be very unhappy flying for them. Generally the safety culture in an airline comes from the top, as does the rest of the "nature" of the organisation. If the company's management is blind to the problems or unwilling to address them, then (in the UK at least) I would address letters higher up - viz, the CAA or CHIRPS. I don't know if you have such an organisation there, but if not, you should.

However, that having been said, I understand the unwillingness to get oneself deeper in the mire, and I agree with your point about, in quietly having a word with one or two other pilots, keeping identities concealed.

Finally, whatever he says, an FO is always more than the Captain's sexual advisor ("When I want your f***ing advice I'll ask for it"). Self preservation alone should see to that. I don't want to fly with anyone who will gleefully watch me screw it up, and while I do so endanger his life into the bargain.

I always reckon that, on the flight deck, I'm looking out for him, and hope he's also looking out for me. We're a team. If I miss something, I hope he'll bring it to my attention. If he misses something, I'll do the same for him. I'm not trying to score points. I'm trying to survive.

[bullshot]

Just to remind you guys that Captains from hell were almost always previously F/O's from hell

My experience is that a whining F/O always makes a poor Captain

Sorry to have to break that to some of you but there it is

[autoflight]

When I was F/O there were more than a few captains from hell, in military and airlines. In some rare cases working together was unsafe, so I made official requests to avoid them. These requests got a frosty reception, and possibly my career suffered as a result. Too bad! Better than dead.
As a captain, there were just as many difficult F/Os. I had no hesitation about flying with those who actually tried to co-operate. Some extremely rare cases of official "request to avoid" met the same frosty reception.
There is no excuse for a captain to ferment bad feeling on the flight deck, but do try to remember that we are all human.
He is just as likely to have a Check Captain from hell, management from hell and work for an airline from hell. I have experienced all these, and met them head on. The pressure to resist unsafe procedures finally was too much and I elected to remain out of flying.
If you cannot resolve your feelings about CFH, and these flights are unsafe as a result, you must not fly with these guys. If you cannot avoid them, you must leave that company and try for another that has a better culture. If these things are not possible, you need to try another career path. The justification for your feeling is irrelevant. Your responsibility is for safe flight.

[Willit Run]

I'm going to try and do this!!

Never become the captain you once hated to fly with.

Hopefully, if we all act this way, we will rid the system of the folks that are no fun to be with.

at my airline, we F/O's have finally gotten enough complaints to the chief pilot, about a certain someone ,that something will be done shortly!
Complaining about a captain is one of the hardest things i have had to do in my life!!!

[autoflight]

Willit Run
There are harder things yet to come. Some of them may be:
Fail check flight because faulty checker interpretation of regulations or SOP
Fail check because checker doesn't like you
Expected to fly without up-to-date aircraft flight manuals
Expected to fly with approach charts not updated
Hold or divert due weather when your buddies are still operating
Defy your chief pilot on a safety matter
Leave your well paid position to avoid the above problems, and continue to keep your family together and pay off your house when your wife & friends think you stuffed up

[Few Cloudy]

The question seems a simple one but it is not. What is a captain from hell? When I was a FO (called a copilot in those days) there were a couple of captains who were notorious amongst my colleagues as being difficult to get on with. I flew with them both and tried to be matter of fact and professional - trying to ignore the rumours. It worked - and actually I learned a lot from both of those guys (one was Swiss - one Dutch).

The Swiss guy, after the first two legs, took me on one side and said "I think we have a communication problem..." I didn't think so - thought it had gone quite well and started to bristle. I listened to what he had to say however. You know what - it all made sense and I tried to put it into practice.

The Dutch guy, after a couple of "elegant and fuel saving"descents on my part, criticised my operation. Again, after starting to bristle, I listened. He had some good ideas for being just as elegant and fuel saving but with a better margin of safety and cockpit capacity.

I can imagine both these guys, who only meant well, rubbing up the FO the wrong way, as they nearly did with me. They only wanted the best for the operation, however and had a rather unfortunate manner. Laxative in the coffee and cheap tricks wouldn't have been any benefit - as you see.

On the other hand I also flew with a couple of captains who were well liked by the FOs but with whom I had the greatest problems. The first - a French speaking Swiss, very jolly and convivial, flew in a way that I could not follow. Nothing was standard and I was out of the loop a lot. In Lisbon he taxyed out for the wrong runway. I tried to help by saying -" erm clear to turn right here..." a few times and the tower, who had seen the error called "Confirm you prefer the other direction?" The captain said "Yes" and then the tower asked if we were ready immediate, which we were not. The captain asked me to confirm and when I sat, confused, he called "ready" himself. We were then given TO clearance and I sat dumbfounded as he went, without the pre take off checks (taxy check as it was known) being done.

All I did was to check that TO flap had been set and then I watched as this ******** took off. That I was also a ******** for letting him didn't occur to me until later. Immediately after TO he gave me controls, which at that time was non standard. The departure was based on a couple of NDBs, which he then detuned without my order. We then flew towards the only cumulus cloud in the whole heavens and I was debating whether left or right would be better, when he said "You don't fly through this do you?" I bit my tongue, and at the destination, when I asked for flap, he laughed and said I didn't need it yet. I asked again and had he not given me the flap, was going to give him controls. The landing was uneventful but I spent a sleepless night wondering what to do.

The other guy - German speaking Swiss and also very popular, made a long landing in Nairobi, then a terrible long landing in Jo'burg and just made the last turnoff. On the DC-10 in CWS, the ship trimmed during speed reduction if you held off - making the landing even longer. No debriefing was made. The FE and I just looked at each other and again I didn't sleep.

Both times I just let it go. I know now what I should have done - acted positively and later sought a dialogue but I didn't because they were "nice guys". For me, these were captains from hell, not the sticklers. We have to try to understand people better - all of us, to make flying safe.

[fadec_primary_channel]

I have found the easiest way is to let them fly all sectors, as you get no nagging, you are less tired and best of all they usually
start to wonder why you don't want to fly. They then usually become worn out around the third/fourth sector and let you have it making very few complaints. However, have had very few problems like this and it relies on many other aspects within the company to help prevent these situations.:)

[holden]

fadec,
you dont let the skipper fly..he lets you...have a nice day

[HugMonster]

Well said, holden,

Also, I find that the actual poling is the easy part. I can relax, play space invaders with the bars, and shout at my FO if he doesn't tune the aids I want, have the weather for the places I want, etc etc.

Yes, I am being ironic.

fadec, your "answer" is no answer at all. For rather better guidance, see above.

[what's it doing now?]

Well Fadec,

I agree with holden and HugMonster. Ultimately the captain decides who gets which sector. Ultimately, every sector is the captains anyway. That is the law. And with HugMonster, I find that flying the sector myself, I don't have to play the PICUS game. I don't mind giving sectors away. But some F/O's really take it to heart and can't stand the Captain adding his input into things. They want to be CAPTAIN! But when it is "my" sector, I always include the F/O in all decisions and always err in the direction of whoever is being more cautious.

Captains from hell? Yes there are a few. Like you, I've had few occasions where the Captain was a real ****. But the few occasions do tend to stand out in your mind. Just do your best to stay safe and resolve that when you are in the left seat, you will be better Captains than they are. And that day will come sooner than you think. Oh yes, remember their names for the day when they request YOUR jumpseat!

p.s. When I do my PA to the passengers, I always refer to the F/O as "my friend on the flight deck today is Senior First Officer....", because we do have to be friends to get things done safely. Fly safely!
:)

[wallabie]

Go fishing !

[G.Khan]

So you see Fadec, before someone mentioned "Compulsory CRM", we all got along pretty well!;)