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union
10th Mar 2013, 04:43
Since our company closed down our vbpilot website, we may as well discuss our concerns on PPRuNE.

The second EBA draft is not much better than the first one and it is very likely that Virgin pilots will take industrial action in the near future. The only smart move by the company would be to promise the backpay 24 hours before the new EBA document goes up for vote. Otherwise, it will be a NO vote again by the majority of pilots. Can't believe that we are now a full cost airline with still budget airline salaries...

coaldemon
10th Mar 2013, 10:34
The person who shut down the VB Pilots website doesn't even live in Australia if you had bothered to do some research. := I'm sure though that they have been in VA Management for the whole time they have been working for someone else.......:D

yigy2
10th Mar 2013, 11:42
Union,

It is back up and running. How about keeping all this in house until a final decision is made hey? Click on this link. Your old login details will work. Not everyone shares your opinion....

Virginetics (http://www.virginetics.com)

RATpin
10th Mar 2013, 11:53
jeez union, back in the 70's, we went out on the grass for a week for 2 bucks fifty and the Union heavy weights got a new beach shack.

yigy2
10th Mar 2013, 12:05
Union, just from the wording of your post and being new here - (hmmm I think b.s)

You wouldn't be freight.dog would you???

Now I am not a smart man, but phrases such as, "will take industrial action" and "we are now a full cost airline with still budget airline salaries.." sound exactly like freight.dog...

A quick search on previous posts by freight.dog indicates all freight.dog's previous Virgin comments have been lost in cyberspace???

Is Union infact freight.dog ???? ;)

Go West
10th Mar 2013, 12:15
That is the most ridiculous post I have seen in a while.

Mods end it now. It is a wind up from someone who clearly has no idea of what is actually going on.

The end.

ad-astra
10th Mar 2013, 19:50
Yigy2,

I think you are quite correct regarding your suspicions of the ancestral family links of the Freight Dog clan and the Union Clan.

I think they are more akin to the inbreeding families of Tennessee or Kentucky but Mr Union is more than likely to show us his knowledge on the subject and his real agenda here very quickly if not already.

It is funny when the likelihood of a yes vote becomes stronger and stronger the more vocal and desperate the proponents of a no vote become.

Funny how they would prefer to argue the point in an open forum rather than the site that provides more fact than fiction.

Funny how they posture such gems as " will take industrial action" when there is nothing further from the truth.

Funny how they seem to appeal to the masses when I think they are desperately trying to send a message to the company.

The moderators will more than likely take action but in the mean time watch this little fella squeal as his beloved No vote vanishes.

If he is actually employed by VA then this is the weakest link that we all have to account for when we consider our next vote. Having the likes of Messrs Freight Dog and Union in charge of my industrial future would be industrial suicide.

Ah the bravado of youth again!

passiveresistance
10th Mar 2013, 21:18
Why jump all over Union? Who cares what his old pseudonym was?? Is he or she wrong? Is VA management offering full cost carrier wages or budget? Simple question. Full wages or budget wages?

If the answer is Budget wages (which it is), then why the aggression?

As for whether industrial action might occur, everyone is allowed to speculate...he/she has a 50% chance of being correct.

All that patronising bs about the bravado of youth....sounds like some old dispute pilot with the usual been-there-done-everything can't-be-told superiority complex. How soon before retirement, gentlemen???

ad-astra
10th Mar 2013, 21:58
Well passive you seem to have a handle on everything about VA.

You ask a question and answer it in the next sentence.

You put the likelyhood of industrial action down to the roll of a dice.

You dismiss a poster for having "been there done that" but offer no other insights.

Nice second post.

Animalclub
10th Mar 2013, 22:15
Is VA management offering full cost carrier wages or budget? Simple question. Full wages or budget wages?

What's the difference?

Sounds like the locals in Papua New Guinea who agree to a lease price on land, used for a declared industry, then further down the track attempt to increase the lease price because one has put a building or some other structure on the land.

One agrees to work for Virgin for a price and conditions no matter whether it is operating as an LCC or not. If Virgin upgrade their service does the job description change if you still fly the same aircraft? Does this same wage discussion also apply to cleaners, check-in staff etc.?

Sure, I'll wait for the incomming... just asking a couple of questions!! I'm retired now from the aviation industry after 40 years and have never worked for or travelled with Virgin.

psycho joe
10th Mar 2013, 22:33
The difference Animalclub, is that LCC's use their low cost title as a reason to put downward pressure on wages. Ie " we can't pay xyz wages like a full service carrier, because we're a LCC".

The reality is that VA is the second biggest airline in Australia. It's profitable and a full service carrier. VA could pay QANTAS wages and still have much lower operating costs than QANTAS. yet some pilots are intent on comparisons with tiger, jet star and Skywest eba's. :ugh:

Servo
11th Mar 2013, 00:03
Pammy A.

Why would the A330 be paid the same as the 777? The only thing in common (for now) is that they are both WB. Obviously one does LH international, the other SH domestic.

Dont get me wrong, would be great.

I wonder what VA's actions will be if/when voted no?

MASTEMA
11th Mar 2013, 00:18
This is not a wind-up but legitimate questions.

Will the Tiger pilots enjoy the same EBA conditions?

Will the 320/ 737 and A330/ A330 conditions be aligned?

I am sure they will also appreciate getting a new uniform, and having it paid for by the company. :ok:

scam sniffer
11th Mar 2013, 01:20
Pammy

A couple of quick points, but I argue neither way. It does not affect me, so I have no right.

If you argue that the 330 should get as much as the 777, shouldn't you also argue that the E190 should get the same as the 737? If not, pray tell, what is the difference in principle.

Not all VAI commuters get the assistance of positive space. There is also argument that commuting is not a right, but a privelege, and therefore should not be a part of an agreement (EBA).

And: Do you really want to commute domestically? Take it from one who has done a fair bit of it, even with positive space, it's a pain in the arse, it's expensive, and takes you away from home for considerably longer than being domiciled in your base. There is a big difference in commuting on a domestic roster and the five or six trips (56 day roster), on a long haul roster.
Be careful what you wish for.

SS

Dragun
11th Mar 2013, 04:48
I'm pro integration.
I'm anti the current integration proposal.

Exactly. Why is it so hard for people to see that and just assume anyone who is against the proposed method is against integration completely? In reality, integration is a good thing....the current proposed method of it is not.

Servo
11th Mar 2013, 06:12
Cactus, nicely said. Love it :p

Frickman
11th Mar 2013, 07:27
Cactus Jack. Absolutely nailed it. :ok::D summed it up perfectly.


.

bereal_getreal
11th Mar 2013, 08:02
Point 1

freight.dog I to am an effected Domestic FO (probably junior to yourself in all likelihood!). Its time to face up to a few realities.

The time for winner (Domestic FO) takes all has been and gone with the last vote. Many of our FO colleagues voted 'NO' falling for the promise of a 'tightening' of the integration clause under a 'mandate'. It got tightened alright and it moved toward the CFO position! Is this the end of the world? NO. How many people are we talking here? 35 worst case scenario. Can they jump you for your first command? NO.

The company has made it very clear that its had a guts full of the whole integration show and I can see why. They have stated through the unions that if this fails we are headed for silos. Silos means 3-5% growth per annum if you are lucky. Don't forget, Tiger 320s are in the wings and we will start waving goodbye to Coffs, Ballina, Sunshine Coast and many others very shortly. Ejets are getting older and ATRs are getting newer (you got the picture - its not pretty). We will have to wait decades and decades for a left seat move if silos are the result.

Under the current Integration proposal, as opposed to the last one, we loose some seniority to CFOs sure. But what do we gain? Have a read of this article:

Virgin Australia (http://www.ausbt.com.au/virgin-australia-s-big-call-for-2013-boeing-787-vs-airbus-a350)

We gain the ability to perhaps fly one of these as an FO while we wait and more importantly our Senior Captains can fly them as Captains. For us that means movement. Something we won't have under a silo given slowed domestic growth and other companies (Tiger/Skywest) accelerated growth. Would you like to see our Senior guys not move while outsiders take DE 350 commands? Whilst I like those senior dudes I think I'd like them even more if they moved onto another growing fleet leaving space for me one day!

Another option that we risk is pure Date of Joining. If this happens my friend you might as well leave Australia as you will never see the left seat in your lifetime. In actual fact this was the original AFAP and VIPA proposal 2 years ago believe it or not. Only through phone calls, emails and long chats did we get it to come back into our favour. Now I'm not saying I'm happy about losing seniority to CFOs but I know I'd prefer the current model to a silo or a pure DOJ.

Let me also point out that as technology evolves and these big machines become more efficient suddenly routes that were once unprofitable become profitable. An A350 might make money where the 777 doesn't. All you need is 5 more on top of the current 5 and hey presto we've just moved 35 spots up the list. What I'm saying is that you need to take an ultra long term view of things. 35 spots is one indusction course difference, hardly worth canning 30 years of Long Haul opportunities is it?

Finally sometimes in Integration like in everything you can't have it all your own way. You've got to have a compromise. We got Command protection and Pac Blue put to the bottom of the list. Its hardly the worst outcome is it?

Point 2:

Industially charged 'NO' voters, I agree with many of your points but everything has a time and a place.

The CEO is not going to give us Business class so can we just stop wasting time going over the same diatribe over and over. That is not to say that one day when the CEO has moved on that we might be able to bargain with someone that doesn't feel so passionately about it. Why is he so passionate about it? Well I guess he is trying to get as many Business class passengers as possible from Qantas. What does that mean for you and I? Nothing immeadiately but in the long term. 1. Job Security 2. More money to buy more planes and more equipment with 3. More ground to bargain with at the next EBA (12 months away from begining negotitations).

Trying to bargain with the CEO whose entire strategy is Business class after not exactly stellar profit announcements is a complete and utter waste of our time and resources. Lets fight the wars you and I can win hey! Qantas are blessed with ALL staff (Cabin Crew etc) riding in Business next to the CEO of CSL or BHP. Can you imagine some of the conversations and carry on they overhear and see? Great for us not great for them. Lets pick the Business class war another time lads.

Skywest get Business class on the ATR and F50 if they travel overseas. The F100 sim is in Australia and the pilots travels domestically and therefore economy is the go. The overseas business class war is to be fought by our 777 pilots not us as it is they that have to sit week in week out in economy to Malaysia. The F50 will be retired and with 18 frames the ATR Sim will magically appear on Australian soil.

Skywest 320 pilots receive very little if no allowances (all day trips), no drafts and go to one or two places only at this point. Their fleet has an enormous question mark over it as they don't have a great need for the machine and JB isn't into having people sit around! Tiger have 320s interestingly enough. Maybe Skywest will be the LCC (as suggested ina nother thread). Hows that clause look in the EBA?

The Skywest EBA has mixed rosters with reserves mixed with flying and 8 days off total. I get double their days off most months and if I want can make more than their Captains with drafts and allowances. The majority of their work are day trips to mine sites, they have no bidding system apart from simple days off requests I believe. I overnight on the Gold Coast and Bali when it suits me. They overnight at Arglye, cool. I guess thats why no Virgin pilots are applying to Skywest!

The CEO put it in writing that we would not receive backpay. What more warning do you want? Skywriting perhaps? I suggest you contact your union regarding this matter.

Executive bonuses in Australia ARE a problem and given the profit results I think might need scrutiny. I'd suggest the forum for this is not an EBA vote. Shareholder meetings or ASIC are far more appropriate.

'737 pilots are getting 3%'. A330 pilots are grossly under paid and if you think it should stay that way you need shock therapy. Pushing them as high as possible gives us room to move later down the track. Should they (330) make more than 777? What planet are you on? NO.

'Embraer pilots are getting a bigger payrise'. Yep spacing them the same as 330 guys from us. Less whinging in the crew room and less likelihood of the skippers moving to the 73 or more likelihood of me moving to it as 175k aint the worst command wage I've seen on a seats to dollars ratio. Just ask the Jetstar 320 guys. Actually don't bother they'll tell you they are pulling 250k regularly/easily with overtime (my eyes roll, yet another pilot inferiority complex).

'But the 73 makes all the money we should get more' (i think the atrs making a bit to just quietly!). Do you have any mates at QF on the 73 or 320 JQ guys that will tell you the truth? We ain't doing too bad guys.

'Commuters get no help' agree if anything they get some sort of weird/anti treatement from certain people in the company. Those people need couselling and need to get over it. Pilots commute as they always have, they aren't a contagious disease. Commuters get no EBA help thanks to Colgan and CASA as I understand it. Its no reason to give them a hard time however. I love the Captains that try to make a point of shooting them down: get a life seriously, they're our collegues.

Will Tiger pilots get the same conditions etc? No but they will get all the growth and a job all unlikely if the deal doesn't go ahead!

Industrial Action? Qantas pilots wore ties and got Told off by FWA! What exactly do you think will happen to us? Dreaming. Maybe we should just wait for the change of Government. I'm sure they're going to be sympathetic to union demands. Hang on we're all Liberal voters aren't we...? Individual contracts sound cool- Not!

'They are corrupt and bullies'. Ok well take that up with the Integrity department or a Commonwealth body whats that got to do with the EBA sorry? Strange.

Finally pick your time pick your place. $23mil profit aint the time or place. When its in the hundreds of millions sure. 1982 is gone, time to face a new reality. The boom is gone, people are being retrenched. bereal_getreal.

Cheers. Bye.

Oz_Superman
11th Mar 2013, 10:33
As an outsider very interesting to read.
It is quite interesting to read people justifying to accept a lower total remuneration package than what was offered the first time. Not many guys would vote for something like that. You guys must be a companies ideal employee!!!
As for the brand new poster above, I work with many Skywest guys and they travel confirmed business whenever they travel O/S with any airline.
Why would you guys accept less than your regional drivers and the rest of the industry when it comes to duty travel?

my oleo is extended
11th Mar 2013, 11:16
bereal_getreal,
The company has made it very clear that its had a guts full of the whole integration show and I can see why. They have stated through the unions that if this fails we are headed for silos. Silos means 3-5% growth per annum if you are lucky. Don't forget, Tiger 320s are in the wings and we will start waving goodbye to Coffs, Ballina, Sunshine Coast and many others very shortly. Ejets are getting older and ATRs are getting newer (you got the picture - its not pretty). We will have to wait decades and decades for a left seat move if silos are the result. Hmmm, smells like HR scare tactics:=
and,
Finally pick your time pick your place. $23mil profit aint the time or place. When its in the hundreds of millions sure. 1982 is gone, time to face a new reality. The boom is gone, people are being retrenched. bereal_getreal.Oops, I smell that HR stench again :=

psycho joe
11th Mar 2013, 11:48
The CEO is not going to give us Business class so can we just stop wasting time going over the same diatribe over and over.

Are you aware that the nearest company approved A330 simulator with RR engines is 8 hrs paxing time away? I'm sorry that your time has been wasted.

Dehavillanddriver
11th Mar 2013, 12:18
hey freight dog

what does the current eba say about first officer moves? for the sake of being even handed you should do that calculation as i am guessing that it will be a much bigger number if guys are stuck unable to move until they get a command

unseen
11th Mar 2013, 12:44
Are you aware that the nearest company approved A330 simulator with RR engines is 8 hrs paxing time away? I'm sorry that your time has been wasted.

The regs don't require the sim to have the same engines as the aircraft.

QANTAS never had a 767 sim with RR engines, nor a 744 sim with GEs.

VB might want to use one with rollers, the FOI might want them also, but the regs don't require it.

UltimaThule
11th Mar 2013, 22:23
Hey Freight Dog

From what I hear a lot of the recent transfers from VAI are struggling, extra sims, extra line training, pulled offline etc. I wouldn't consider them too much of a threat. The company is not going to put someone with a poor performance history up for a type change or upgrade.

Oz_Superman
13th Mar 2013, 07:24
Well I finally read some of the proposed doc. (thanks Greenie! :ok:)
So the 737 guys are really not getting much at all are they?? With no backpay and only 3% its not really even cost of living is it over the life of the agreement.
Also read the duty travel policy. That would have to be seriously the worst duty travel agreement in the industry wouldn't it?

Tankengine
13th Mar 2013, 13:01
As an observer from the opposition I would suggest you look into the soon to be completed deal for QF long haul.
The company wanted/threatened, no back pay, no First Class etc etc.:hmm:

They grounded the company and it went to FWA:8

Guess what, they gained a few small efficiencies and life goes on for us with soon to be collected back pay, 3% per year, still pax P etc etc.:ok:

JB wants to compete, he may as well pay the price.:E

Oakape
13th Mar 2013, 23:47
If you really want to gain an understanding of EBA negotiations & management tactics, have a read of this book -

The 49ers - The True Story: John Warham: 9781846245879: Amazon.com: Books


It will also give an insight into the true relationship between management & pilots.

B043
13th Mar 2013, 23:52
As an Observer as well, from what I see on these forums and have heard from various sources involved in the process, Blind Freddy can tell this EBA will get through.

Sorry Freight Dog........... Relax, have some time to yourself.

Next topic! :zzz:

union
14th Mar 2013, 23:12
don't use the virginetics website for anything else than the simulator notes. IT IS MONITORED BY MANAGEMENT PILOTS.

We all know about the "black list of pilots" and we all heard about the reasons why the most experienced CRM instructor in Australia was made redundant from Virgin.

Just be careful guys (it is better to use PPRuNe)....

porch monkey
15th Mar 2013, 00:26
Let me see. You started this thread by saying "management" closed down the old website. Now, apparently, they monitor the new one. You were incorrect first time, and who really gives a shit if they monitor the new one anyway? How would that be any different anyhow? Reckon you might need to get yourself a new tinfoil hat. The old one obviously leaks a bit. :rolleyes:

union
15th Mar 2013, 01:05
honestly, porch monkey do you not care that the best CRM facilitator in Australia was made redundant because he stood up against corruption and he was against changing pilots training documents. Do you not care about the black list of pilots who never get promotions because they have expressed their opinions in open forums? Do you not care about budget airline salaries for Virgin? Do you not care about the fact the an Airbus captain has to pax in economy class from SYD to PER to operate safely back to SYD without fatigue. What do you care about?

grrowler
15th Mar 2013, 01:15
And of course the integration clause will provide such a transparent selection process there will be no possible place for any shenanigans...

32megapixels
15th Mar 2013, 04:49
I would like to thank you all for the input you have made here. As someone from the opposition and smaller brother I have gained a fair bit of what the attitude is in regard to this EBA. I have read all the updates as well.

To me, as someone who has built up a significant amount of flying experience, it is quite disappointing to see how pilots fight over one thing. It is seniority. What a frigging joke.

Choosing to be a pilot in Australia really is a shit career choice! Virgin Australia was the featured 'golden child' for job choice over the last 3-4 years. I can say though, now as the company matures and growth declines, pilot opportunities will also decline in rate of turnover and therefor promotion.

Just remember one thing in this country for those younger pilots. It doesn't matter your performance. Just be lazy, get a pass only, get onto a seniority lis as early as possible and pay for it as much as you need to!

Well done boys and girls. You deserve this debate!

The Baron
15th Mar 2013, 05:09
"Blind Freddy can see this EBA will get through"

Big call from an "observer". The result is far from certain at this stage.

Scare enough people and it will get up. That seems to be the tactic we are seeing again.

Servo
15th Mar 2013, 05:17
History certainly has a habit of repeating itself, VA is no different.

Oh and just for the record, I once overheard a conversation by management in a different department about organising key logger software to be installed on a computer. Not tinfoil hat stuff.

porch monkey
15th Mar 2013, 06:44
Whether they are different or not isn't the point. No one should be under any illusion that management is anything but management everywhere you go these days. The point is, what are you going to do about it, or what is it going to cost you to do something about it? And will you win? The answer only YOU as an individual can answer. I don't give a toss whether anyone is monitoring what I do at work. Even here. If you think having a nom de plume gives you any anonymity you're kidding yourself. VA might be a lot of things, but as a place to work I can only go with what I've experienced. I've worked for a f%cking lot worse. If you think it will change anything, vote no and try your luck. That's what it amounts to. Cost us $$ last time......

Oh, and I overheard a manager say once that VA was getting A320's. What exactly does that prove?

union
15th Mar 2013, 10:00
This new EBA includes:

no real payrise for the B737 (only CPI),

we still have no credit for the 30 minutes sign off time when calculating max duty times,

flight duty limitations Table B can still be used if a MEL or SYD crew transits PER, which means that someone can sign on at 3 AM and be rosterred for 12hrs (how safe is that?),

paxing in economy class,

no proper crew meals, and

no "back pay".

The last time I voted in 2007 only 53% of pilots agreed to the current EBA (big victory for the company, since they offered the bare minumum and the pilots voted yes for it)

This EBA is not much better, but I guess pilots will not stick together to try to improve the terms and conditions.

History has proven that most pilots accept anything without any thoughts. For example, when the 777 or the A330 was introduced people accepted it without even knowing the salaries. Commuters still take drafts from BNE during their off days and therby shooting themselves in the foot. Company is probably laughing at us pilots since they know that they can do what ever they want with us and we will still happily accept it.

JPJP
15th Mar 2013, 19:52
I'm an outside observer and fellow LCC pilot working in the U.S. I also use VAA exclusively if I pay for a ticket, including your business class trans-pacific product. Kudos; excellent service and a very comfortable 14 hour journey.

Regarding deadhead and Staff travel in Business class, and as a point of reference for you from a similar type airline contract -

1. If a Business class seat is available within 30 minutes of departure it will be assigned to the crew. This applies to staff travel and deadhead.

2. If the deadhead segment is over 5 hours or precedes a red eye transcon, business class will be assigned to crew. This was introduced partly as a result of crew arriving after a 5 hour transcon in economy, faced with operating another 5 hours back and promptly walking of the aircraft and calling in fatigued. Stranding 140 pax in Seattle or San Francisco.

3. Only aisle or window seats may be assigned to crew.

It's my opinion that deadheading in Business class is in fact a matter of safety in many circumstances. It's my observation; when pax are aware that you are working, they appreciate the fact that you are less likely to become a fatigue hazard on subsequent flights due to a business class seat.

I hope you'll excuse the intrusion. It's your contract, however I thought a constructive comparison of other pilots T&Cs may be usefull.

Stiff Under Carriage
15th Mar 2013, 21:51
Just remember one thing in this country for those younger pilots. It doesn't matter your performance. Just be lazy, get a pass only, get onto a seniority lis as early as possible and pay for it as much as you need to!

Witnessed these countless times over the years.

grrowler
16th Mar 2013, 00:27
Pammy and union, what is your plan to achieve a better outcome?

Open Descent
16th Mar 2013, 00:30
Bloody Hell,

So much for slow and steady gains over the years to, in time, develop a solid set of working conditions.

The problem with some of you, pammy & union to name a few, is you want to cherry pick the best bits of other operators conditions and combine them into some sort of super eba.

Given the time frame VB/VA has been around, the improvement in conditions has been ok in my opinion. When the company first started, Captains were on less the 100K (granted that was only a temporary arrangement), if voted up, by the end of the agreement a 737 Capt base salary is just shy of 218K. Not a bad improvement over 12 or so years.

Union, you say no real pay rise for the 737. I hate to tell you this but the company operate other aircraft as well and they had to be factored into this agreement.
Given most new starts, either direct entry or CRZFO, will start around level 1 on an ejet, they currently have a base of 84K. By the end of this agreement, they will be on level 3 conditions, just over 120K. 43% over the life of the agreement assuming they make level 3 by 2015. A level 2 ejet FO will increase just over 31%.

In the 737 case, a level 1 FO jumps from 105K to just under 142K, (assuming they make level 3 by 2015) over the life of the agreement, just under 35%. A level 2 jumps just under 24%.
A level 3 737 FO (thats me by the way), only gains 14%.
You're complaining that we're getting less in this offer. That's because you voted no last time, hence back pay gone.

330 FO now has a base of 130K, that becomes just under 157K over the life of the agreement.

I hear you say, "well thats shit compared to what Qantas get paid"
Well, you don't work for Qantas, or any other carrier you want to compare us too, you work for Virgin, and that's what is on offer. If you worked for Qantas you would probably still be stooging around with 2 bars on your shoulder complaining that you didn't have a future career in the company.

Crew meals, you have got to be kidding haven't you. I've worked for other carriers and what they served me on a plate had very little to do with my overall job satisfaction.

Duty travel in J class. Yes, would be fantastic to have it, but currently it is not on the table. Doesn't mean it can't be re-visited in the future, but for now it is not achievable. Move on.

Integration. Again, you had the chance for a much better one last vote. You said no. Guess what, next one was worse.

It's not a perfect offer, (I've yet to see one) but I believe it is a responsible one with some modest gains and one that goes some way to securing a little stability between now and when the next one is on the table, which isn't that far away mind you. I'll be voting yes and that isn't a decision born out of fear or intimidation. As I mentioned before, I have worked for other carriers, and you know what, life here is pretty bloody good.

JPJP
16th Mar 2013, 01:18
Regarding 'Open Descent's post,

When your own pilots start making statements like "that's not on offer" and "that's not on the table" you have an issue with 'managing expectations'. That's normally a management role in negotiations.

Here's a post from 'Open Descent', dated one year ago:

"Open Descent

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 6
You are able to hold off for the next offer, however the next offer is a must accept scenario.This was pointed out to me when I was offered a position last year."


'Take the first offer, or the second will be worse' ...... is a classic approach. It shortens negotiations, instills fear, divides the pilot group, and makes the likelyhood of arbitration less likely. It also keeps pilot conditions low. You are in a negotiation, not a hostage situation.

ad-astra
16th Mar 2013, 01:41
Open Descent,

Well said.

For the last two pages we have had the vocal minority complaining that we have not acheived everything that they were told we would achieve by a certain Union.

Well guess what, welcome to the real world!

Having earnt over $250,000 plus allowances plus super last year on the B737 I don't think we are doing too badly.

By July 2015 A330 Captains will have a $57,000 pay rise
By July 2015 B737 Captains will have a $19,000 pay rise
By July 2015 E190 Captains will have a $27,000 pay rise

Thats not too bad for just over two years.

Ask you neighbour what they expect?

Do we have to work one day more or one day harder........ No

Is J Class travel achievable this time round........No

Will it be possible next time ......Maybe

Have we put in place an EBA that will be built on in two years time....Yes

I notice that none of the posters who are complaining about how bad it is are either involved in the negotiations nor electing to vote with their feet.

Either option may provide a better environment for us all but I would suggest that neither will be taken up!

I notice also they have absolutely no idea of how they are going to acheive their demands of more money, fine dinning, J class travel, and a seniority system that satisfies all pilots. All they offer is that a vote No will get them everything they demand.

By all means tell us how bad it is here in Virgin but for most of us we don't want to be anywhere else and we think we are doing pretty well.

Funny how 'that' same Union is now supporting what amounts to the same EBA ableit with no back pay and an intergration that respects the commitments made to VAI crews.

Welcome to the real world!

Open Descent
16th Mar 2013, 02:37
JPJP

Thanks for your response.

As far me having a problem with managing expectations, mine are pretty realistic actually. Knowing the change to the business the new boss was trying to make, and given his track record for doing what he says he'll do, I had no misunderstanding that J class duty travel was not an achievable option.
Perhaps those that had a problem with 'managing expectations' were those that put out a fairly outrageous log of claims, instilling in those that read them a false hope that things like J class duty travel were there for the taking.

As far as your second point, which related to that post you dug up from a year ago, what is the point you are trying to make? Are you aware I was referring to an initial job offer not an EBA contract?
And that aside, are you assuming that I took the first offer under duress or out of fear or intimidation?
I was offered a spot with the company back then, however I turned it down in the hope of a better offer the second time around. I was successful in that my second offer was the one I was after. However, I was under no illusions what turning down that first offer meant. The company made it clear that after the second offer there would be no more offers. My 'expectations' were based on the circumstances I was able to operate in.
I made that post in response to a question somebody made at the time that was in a similar position to the one I found myself in. Unlike yourself, rather than tell them what to do, I merely posted what was said to me by the person on the other end of the phone in the hope that whoever may read it could make up their own mind.

Try and apprise yourself of the facts JPJP before you shoot off at the lip. As a self confessed outside observer and fellow LCC pilot working in the U.S., make sure the stones you are lobbing my way don't shatter your glass walls on the way over.

psycho joe
16th Mar 2013, 04:32
ad-astra, open descent et al

As A330 pilots are employed "principally" as short haul; under the proposed agreement they could be rostered for an international single sector of up to 14 hours duty as two crew.

No augmented ops, no onboard crew rest and if you're paxing then you are forbidden from touching a business class seat.

That's what your "real world" looks like. :ugh:

Oz_Superman
16th Mar 2013, 04:46
So you guys are really wanting to push a yes vote despite the overall money being less than the first offer? Just because the company says each time, vote yes now or we offer less next time? and you do it?? :ugh:
And second point, this offer in regards to integration is worse off than first for the VAA FOs is that correct as well?
What am I missing here?

Open Descent
16th Mar 2013, 04:53
As A330 pilots are employed "principally" as short haul; under the proposed agreement they could be rostered for an international single sector of up to 14 hours duty as two crew

Presently if I sign on between 0800 - 1259 and am rostered to do a single sector, I already have the potential to do a 14 hr duty. Obviously on the 737 thats not going to be all flying, but a BNE-PER with continued breakdowns/weather/external contributors/bad luck and its already a viable scenario.

So now we are applying FDP restrictions covered under a short haul award and applying them to international operations that don't exist yet?

Rather than bleating on about crew meals and business class, perhaps we should be concentrating on additions to the award that cover the above example, ie if an aircraft is to be engaged in long haul operations then it is covered under a long haul award, and its related FDP restrictions.

In any case I think you are putting the cart well and truly before the horse.

Arnold E
16th Mar 2013, 05:01
In any case I think you are putting the horse well and truly before the cart.

actually, that's the best place for the said horse.:E

psycho joe
16th Mar 2013, 05:04
So now we are applying FDP restrictions covered under a short haul award and applying them to international operations that don't exist yet?

Rather than bleating on about crew meals and business class, perhaps we should be concentrating on additions to the award that cover the above example, ie if an aircraft is to be engaged in long haul operations then it is covered under a long haul award, and its related FDP restrictions.


OD. I'm not willing to cut and paste the document to prove a point, but needless to say its not just my interpretation. Have a good look at the document, particularly the FAQ's WRT "principally" and what they can do.

Open Descent
16th Mar 2013, 05:35
Touche Arnold E.....

Back to the edit page...

Thanks for that :O

always inverted
16th Mar 2013, 06:41
So it's pretty simple then, can't change said document, if you don't like it then vote no, if you do, then vote yes...
No point whining about the what if's just vote and be done with it. My guess is that most will not have the stomach to say no for the fear of what the company may or may not offer next time, I know what I would be doing...
I think the unions have done the best they can, can't get blood from a stone, and do you not think that the negotiators have tried their hardest to get the things that didn't make it in...
But, if you don't like it then vote no. Simple really.

wrongwayaround
16th Mar 2013, 07:04
Completely out of interest, has the company made it public as to why they won't allow staff/duty travelers into business class?
They seem firm on their decision!

ad-astra
16th Mar 2013, 09:09
Psycho Joe,

Your comments relating to the 14 hour duty give the impression that this is new.

Its in our current EBA.

I have not seen you actively campaigning against this provision over the last 5 years?

How many times has it been used?

How many times have you been rostered to maximum duty period since the current EBA has been in place?

How about we start applying a little bit of common sense here and acknowledge the realities of what is on offer and what has been occurring over the last 5 years.

Misrepresent what is on offer and what we are already operating under and you do your argument no favours.

An awful lot of cherry picking about what could happen but from 10 years of service with this company I am more than comfortable to offer as much good faith as they have over the years.

A lot of red faces and disappointment from those who expected this negotiation to be a push over. Now they scream how the company has not been negotiating in good faith when their unrealistic promises can't be achieved.

I (and what I think a majority of VAA pilots are about to agree) am not willing to watch this debacle by amateurs continue for the sake of "substandard" crew meals and the loss of face of by a union that was out of its depth.

This whole exercise should have been resolved last year and a majority of pilots are about to finally put it to bed.

Snakecharma
16th Mar 2013, 10:43
I reckon you might find that both the unions were happy with the clauses around "principally" engaged in domestic operations as it keeps the A330 flying for the domestic pilots. If it was written in a different way it would go to the international guys, which I didn't think the domestic guys wanted.

Can't please all the people all the time :D

psycho joe
16th Mar 2013, 11:15
Mr star,

This is the first EBA that will cover the A330. :rolleyes:

Try reading the document instead of spouting bs rhetoric and try turning down the constant emoting with every post.


Snake charma you may be right, then again you may be revisiting your words In the not too distant future. I truly hope that this wont be a case of "told you so".

Open Descent
16th Mar 2013, 23:20
Gday Psycho J

If have indeed read and then re-read the FAQ's, in particular the section regarding 'principally' with regards to the 330 operation.

I take your point that the company 'could' roster the crew for a 14 hr TOD with a two man crew, however, the example given in the same FAQ's gives an example of why the case you suggest wont happen as well. From a personal point of view I have yet to see the company exploit the current working conditions, so Im not prepared to expect them to do any different this time around.

You are quite correct though in saying it comes down to interpretation, I guess I see it a little differently.

I believe Ad Astra was making a similar point to the one I made in my earlier post with regards to this example as well. Under certain conditions we can already be rostered for a 14hr TOD with two crew on a single sector day. The company 'can' do it, but i've yet to see it, and this is pertaining to an agreement that has been around since 2007.
I'm also pretty sure he has read and understands the document in front of him, more so than a lot of people if some of the posts here are anything to go by!

psycho joe
17th Mar 2013, 00:06
OD, I appreciate your opinion and I sincerely hope that I'm wrong. That said, the company has made it clear that international sectors rostered greater than 8 hrs will still fall under the domestic short haul EBA. The company's refusal to discuss augmented ops with both unions and the consultation clause leave me concerned. We have little recourse post signing. Both unions are aware, a wait-and-see approach seems to be the preferred option.

Goat Whisperer
17th Mar 2013, 00:44
We have little recourse post signing

Not true. If (big if) we find ourselves on impractically long A330 international sectors with 2 crew, the fatigue reports we would need to submit would be our recourse. It wouldn't take too many delayed departures out of [insert future Asian destination here] diverting to Darwin en route before relatively inexpensive crewing changes happened.

Snakecharma
17th Mar 2013, 02:41
Psycho Joe, not sure where you get your info from but you couldn't be further from the truth regarding augmented ops.

I spoke with someone who should know and the company presented an augmented crew section but both the unions wanted it removed because they didn't like the CASA NPRM on which the company section was based.

To say the company refused to discuss it is horseshit.

And yes the company made it clear that the 8 hr or more sectors would remain on the domestic EBA because that is what both unions demanded. I am told that the concern was that the international EBA would be used, which meant the international pilot group not the domestic pilot group.

Jet Man
17th Mar 2013, 03:09
However many crew you've got you'd still have a 10.5 hour stick time limit (10 for multiple sectors) per pilot. One would presume a pax sector would be counted as a sector for this calculation.

psycho joe
17th Mar 2013, 04:38
Psycho Joe, not sure where you get your info from but you couldn't be further from the truth regarding augmented ops.

I spoke with someone who should know and the company presented an augmented crew section but both the unions wanted it removed because they didn't like the CASA NPRM on which the company section was based.

To say the company refused to discuss it is horseshit.


snakecharma, I'm just going off what one of the unions has written in an update. I don't think that it's kosher to publish it here, but if you go to Virginetics, EBA, VIPA update-Dec 14 it contradicts everything that you just wrote.

Snakecharma
17th Mar 2013, 07:37
Thanks I will go and have a look

Servo
17th Mar 2013, 08:23
Am concerned about the FAQ, recently sent out by email in regards to the Ejet.

A "question" was raised whether the Ejets would remain with VA for the term of the EBA.

They simply did not answer the question. With Skywest operating the ATR's and old 320's, F100's and F50's, it could be on the cards, that they transfer VA's or get them new ones and they end up being "cheaper" blah blah blah........

piston broke again
17th Mar 2013, 08:41
Well...a few things come to mind.

Many of you have valid points and many I agree with but some are just over the top or purely ignorant.

330 pilots getting paid less than 777?
Who cares?
1) they accepted the position with no EBA to fly a bigger a/c
2) they have the majority of the pay increase with the exception of junior Eject (spelling correction but thought I'd leave it in there) FO's.

Yes, 737 drivers are 'not' getting a payrise and there is no equality between fleets (777 to 737) for commuters.

Business class on duty travel (as well as staff travel!) - well this sucks - standard at most airlines worldwide that have business class and yet we don't get it. Lets keep using this point. Although this EBA will get up, we can make our point known continuously. I hate the fact I'm saying this but this is one of the no holds barred for the 'next EBA'.

Just a couple of points though...

Entertaining reading - keep it coming.

psycho joe
17th Mar 2013, 08:50
Snakecharma, my apologies. It would seem that after the union/s made claims re augmented ops, which the company rejected. Then the company made an offer that the unions rejected. My head hurts.

Toluene Diisocyanate
17th Mar 2013, 08:50
Q. Is there any truth to the rumours that the E-Jet will exit the business during the new EBA?

A. The organisation at the direction of EXCO has been tasked with establishing a long term fleet plan. The 18 strong E-Jet fleet forms a significant part of our capacity and is an important part of our ability to service a broad network of
capital cities and regional cities throughout Australia. Typically, individual airframes stay in the fleet for 10 years.

Isn't that answer good enough for you, Servo?

Servo
17th Mar 2013, 10:19
I think the answer dances around the question.

I suppose the question should have been, will the Ejet remain with VA, crewed by "current" VA pilots.

Then again a company will ALWAYS find a way to do what it wants irrespective of its employees.

coaldemon
17th Mar 2013, 11:23
By the looks of it you are asking a question which no one knows the answer to.

Capt Basil Brush
18th Mar 2013, 06:32
From a different thread (vbpilots website) where I got a bit side-tracked;

They would not have been happy with the 'darker' side of the EBA being pointed out to all those who may not have read it closely, or understood it properly.

They attempted to rush the last one through before the Skywest buy-out and Tiger shareholding (and huge management bonuses) were announced. The full ramifications of this wont be known now until after this EBA goes through, as there are new clauses in there that facilitate "Major Changes" to the companies advantage.

By the end of the agreement an Ejet Line Capt (around 100 seats) will be on 185K base. I am not saying that is being overpaid, however a bean-counter or CEO with other (cheaper) crewing options (Skywest) will! Can someone enlighten us to what a Skywest F100 (ageing aircraft, around 100 seats) Line Captain earns??

Meanwhile in the agreement, there is nothing (ok, maybe minimal) in it for 737 pilots - who are the bulk of the existing crew who have not had a payrise since 2011. Not even CPI last year due to management bully-boy tactics, and not bargaining in good faith. A330 and Ejet are in line for good payrises, which is fair enough.

The Ejet may well stay in the fleet, but who will crew it in the future??

f Tiger go to 35 A320's (they will have to fly them somewhere, and there are not THAT many new routes), and there are more ATR's to come - what will happen to existing VA routes, frequencies and expansion??

I am not advocating a NO vote, each pilot will have to decide themselves which way they will vote. At the end of the day, the company will do whatever it likes regardless.

union
23rd Mar 2013, 01:22
I think we should vote NO because a 3% payrise is way too much for the 737 drivers. We should instead take a paycut in order for J.B. and upper management to receive a bigger payrise than the 53% percent which they got last year. :D

coaldemon
23rd Mar 2013, 02:17
Wouldn't the vote be almost over by now? Normally when it is a bit emotional most people vote in the first few hours. Wait until September:eek:

BTDT1963
24th Mar 2013, 12:02
Ends tonight. Results should be known by early tomorrow.

fmcinop
24th Mar 2013, 20:49
According to the EBA poll running on Virginetics, 72% yes and 28% No. This poll have been quite accurate in the past so it will be interesting to see how close it is this time round?

Irrespective of how you voted, everyone needs to at some stage thank the negotiators who eat, breath and sleep this stuff from beginning to end. They spend their days off, free time and time at home, answering emails, phone calls and discussing issues amongst themselves..

They usually receive little or no thanks for the good stuff they managed to achieve, but they certainly cop the abuse and rude emails from those who don't like certain parts. So often it's because people either haven't properly read or understood the document, or are conspiracy theorists and accuse these guys of being in bed with the company.

Either way its a Job 99% of us will never volunteer to do because it is thankless, tiring job that totally consumes you and your life until it's done.

To our negotiators, we thank you for your tireless efforts, your dedication and sacrifice. We appreciate the fact you have given so much of your personal free time and time you should have been spending with you family to try and negotiate an EBA that will improve the salary and conditions for all of us.

Thank you.

wrongwayaround
24th Mar 2013, 21:10
Great post FMC...
Now that the results are in, perhaps someone or some people can share what the benefits/good points/improvements of the new EBA will be (if indeed voted up)
It'll be good to focus on the good points.
Being a (hopeful) future employee, if someone doesn't mind answering, has this new agreement got changes in the training/bond cost? I did see somewhere it was halved.
Are the first 6 weeks (or so?) still unpaid until passing the respective sim?
Would really like to have a read if it's publically available.
Cheers. Wwa

Hugh Jarse
24th Mar 2013, 22:35
Irrespective of how you voted, everyone needs to at some stage thank the negotiators who eat, breath and sleep this stuff from beginning to end. They spend their days off, free time and time at home, answering emails, phone calls and discussing issues amongst themselves..
You forgot to add about at least one of them: "And still have time to carry the load as Training Captain". 'Specially a busted-arsed trainee like me :}

Thanks Jase! And thanks to all the other negotiators in both unions.

turbantime
24th Mar 2013, 22:45
Official results are in. 96.5% participation rate with 83.49% yes vote.

Wrong way,

No more endorsement costs for new trainees but you will be docked $15k in your first year. So effectively it'll still cost you $15k regardless of fleet. You'll still have to wait till induction to get paid.

psycho joe
25th Mar 2013, 00:28
The great thing is that no-one will bitch and moan about the conditions that they've just voted yes to.

.

kimir
25th Mar 2013, 01:23
Phrase "rock and a hard place" springs to mind.