Civilian-run frontline support is operationally effective

[flynavysomerset]

Interesting letter to the Times today.......

"The senior service has surely proved that its civilian-run frontline support is operationally effective.

Sir, The Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA), formed in 1905, provides fuel, ammunition and supplies for ships of the Royal Navy, and friendly foreign navies, around the globe. It is fully integrated into the RN’s command and control system yet its civilian-manned ships are never far from the front line, as the RFA’s outstanding record in the Falklands conflict showed.

The Government would do well to bear this model in mind when considering “civilianisation” of other parts of the uniformed services, whether armed or not. For example, eight squadrons of the RAF’s support aircraft of No 2 Group are flown by RAF personnel, yet provide a similar function to the RFA’s support of the fleet.

The senior service has surely proved, for more than a century, that its civilian-run frontline support is operationally effective and cost-efficient.
The RAF should no longer man its tanker and transport fleet with uniformed airmen, thus helping to reduce the cost of its operations.

Lester May Lt-Cdr, RN (ret’d)
London NW1"

[airborne_artist]

You have to admit he has a point. No-one moaned about the RFA in 1982, nor about the NAAFI canteen manager who won the DSM defending HMS Argent (admittedly he was in uniform by then, and a former soldier).

[Bigpants]

OK but it must be cheaper to have a flt lt as Captain of a C17 or Voyager versus their civvie equivalent?

[Roland Pulfrew]

You have to admit he has a point

No we don't. It's bloody stupid and flies in the face of reality. With the exception of Omega Air (3 ancient tankers) no-one provides AAR, and even Omega Air don't provide it in combat theatres. Secondly (as the RAF are finding out) contractors aren't cheap, so that's the AAR element dismissed. Now lets look at AT. Well for strat AT we have C-17 and Voyager. Voyager requires DAS to operate into non-benign airfields so who else in the civil world provides that? Tac AT is there for all sorts of roles none of which are provided by civilian contractors. So we can discount AT as being open for an RFA option. That leaves the comms fleet - and they are due for he chop in 2015.

Got to give it to the RN though, with this letter and yesterday's letter in the Telegraph they are obviously planning for SDSR 2015 and rolling out the retired RN officer PR machine to spread disingenuous, unsubstantiated, naive bluff and bluster. :rolleyes:

And as with yesterday's DT letter there is no substantiation of his claims that it would be cheaper. Civvie A330 captain v RAF flt lt pay :=

[airborne_artist]

OK but it must be cheaper to have a flt lt as Captain of a C17 or Voyager versus their civvie equivalent?

What's the whole life cost of the two? Selecting and training the Flt Lt won't have been as cheap as the civilian direct entry captain who comes with a command rating.

[Roland Pulfrew]

What's the whole life cost of the two? Selecting and training the Flt Lt won't have been as cheap as the civilian direct entry captain who comes with a command rating.

Someone will have to have paid for the civilian direct entry captain's training, you will have to pay commercial rates of pay to attract hem (and as AirTanker found out, that's not easy), and you would need to provide an awful lot of pilots who may not be as 'loyal' as a flt lt on a 20 year commission.

[lj101]

Would civilians be allowed to operate in theatre of ops? Listen to secret briefings? Carry secret documents. Some military airfields don't let civilians in. Some military airfields allow their own military police to sort customs for foreign service personal only.

Interesting view, but unworkable across the ops we get involved in currently.

[Tinribs]

Talking of civies in the front line and helping the gallant matelots;

don't I recall a certain NAAFI manager on a grey boat finding an unmanned, sorry unpersonned, machine gun during an attack and getting stuck in to some visiting Argy attack planes

[Biggus]

What....you mean as mentioned in post 2 of this very thread!!:ugh:

[Tinribs]

Sorry fellas, must read stuff more

[iRaven]

Just to add a bit of balance, Flt Lts aren't that cheap.

The capitation cost of a Flt Lt on flying pay is circa £90,000. Whilst the Flt Lt might be paid £45k per year, a further £10k in flying pay, the pension is worth another £12k per year, then there is CEA entitlement of up to £15k, also giving SFA entitlement is estimated to cost the MoD about £3k per year, then HDT could be a further £3k per year and, and, and...

I think that we could civilianise pure strategic AT, but unfortunately life isn't that simple. "One trick ponies" are no longer in favour with the RAF, hence all of 2Gps aircraft push for multirole capability - AT/AAR or AT/MRR with the ability to do this strategically or more towards the tactical end.

Nice idea, but in practise, civilianising the fleet for just the strategic AT would probably be more expensive as we would need to have more "one trick ponies".

iRaven

[dragartist]

101 - Rubbish. Attended many TS breifings as a Civie and knew others who carried docs all around the world. There are a number civies at Bastion at the moment employed by DSG undertaking maintenance activities. subject to same risks getting in and out and whilst there.

Happy with some of the valid arguments put forward on capitation rates etc.

don't play the loyalty card either. I stopped counting how many hours I put in during Corparate, Granby, Herick and Jakana. Got the certificates on the downstairs toilet wall to prove it.

Do any civie a/c have DAS? I think they do. Probably not chaff and flares but certainly dircm.

I am not in favour of civiliansing flying duties in the RAF. just in favour of a ballanced honest argument.

Did FRADU not have civie FJ jocks years ago on Hunter etc. Not front line I know but a good stepping stone to final retirement.

[Backwards PLT]

Well there's very little "operational" work that the RN do any more - I reckon you could civilianize 90% of it. Keep whoever presses the button for TLAM and Royal and the rest are good to go.

Of course that statement isn't backed up by using facts but apparently that isn't required.

[Ken Scott]

As an argument the letter is a load of tosh. The C130 fleet has a combat role, operating around the frontline if not actually armed & fighting, hence the 3 ac lost to enemy action in the last 10 years. Not convinced many civvies would be queuing up to take that on. SF feed from the the rest of the fleet, likewise I can't see civilians taking that one on either. Civvie pilots are unlikely to have done much Tac flying either, unless they were ex-RAF & we already take those on as Auxilaries.

The rest of the AT fleet? They all operate into threat environments too & whilst the RFA operate near the threat I don't believe they are deliberately sent into harms way. Air Tanker have struggled to recruit enough pilots because their pay wasn't considered competitive. There's a lesson there somewhere.

Perhaps there needs to be a concerted campaign of letter writing to the broadsheets trashing the role of the RN?

[smujsmith]

How bloody sad that here we are, once again, debating the rights and wrongs of servicemen doing their job, versus the "economical" civilian alternative. At the end of the day it's down to how the politicians call it. Whatever they decide, the buggers should accept the consequences and if they get it wrong should resign. of course, you will never find an MP who,is prepared to accept his own failure when British troops are killed! I believe that if you want to be able to rely on such a service, it must be based on non political, military, personnel. Any private interest will have only one target in mind, profits. Sorry for the rant, I'm starting to calm down now.

Smudge

[lj101]

Drag

We've had military airfields refuse us when carrying civilian scientists in both the Middle East and the USA in the last few years. Cold lake AB refused a civilian last year (taken off the flight) as their customs officers only allow military personnel.

It's only my direct experience of issues encountered over 20 odd years in the AAR world.

[Q-RTF-X]

Looks like the Navy operate something like a boy service scheme even ... They do have a certain training element i.e. the Navy will train people, from scratch, to fill a number of roles within the RFA, including deck officers. The suggestion is that one may start at age 16 and work one's way up the ladder within the RFA with the Navy picking up the tab all the way.

http://c69011.r11.cf3.rackcdn.com/c18a32ceef8840bb895c061051957ec9-0x0.pdf

Applying the same concept to RAF AT is however (IMHO) a totally different kettle of fish ... it's just not comparing apples with apples. If one allows the thought that RAF AT can be totally turned over to a civilian manning one could, I suppose, propose the RFA take a broader role within the RN; start with minesweepers perhaps ?

[Q-RTF-X]

And this is pretty damn good also ...

Pay and conditions
You’ll earn a highly competitive salary, plus an extra
RFA allowance reflecting our special status which is
paid monthly with your basic salary. We also offer
a choice of Civil Service pension schemes. We’ll
ask you to serve for three years after you complete
your training if you are offered a contract as a
qualified Deck Officer. Whilst serving as a cadet
you will gain 28 days leave for every four months
you spend onboard ship and will also have your
college weekends free. Once a qualified officer you
will work for four month appointments earning
84 days leave after each one.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Jeez!I wish I had terms and conditions even a half as good as that!
(spoken as as Captain, UK top level airline)

[smujsmith]

Never mind A b ! When you get your blood pressure back to normal, you will realise that military resources cost more because they are worth more than the standard airframe driver. No insult intended but when did you last enter a war zone, for standard pay ?

[Roland Pulfrew]

AB. When was the last time you went to Brize? A whole airfield for 15-20 aircraft?? That would be x C130J/K, y Tristars, z VC10s, some C17s and a couple of Voyagers. Plus all the civvie charter pax and freight runs to various parts of the world - not as busy as other civilian single runway airfields, but you can't fit it all into any other military airfield.:=