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doubleu-anker
9th Mar 2013, 12:58
Once again we read and are informed of more child abuse by members of a certain denomination. Tip of the ice berg.

This abuse will never be stamped out until members of this denomination are allowed to marry. Sex is a bit like eating. It is a necessary body function that will allow the human race to continue living.

Where in the Bible does it say, you are not allowed to take a wife?? I cant find it in the Bible I read.

Slasher
9th Mar 2013, 13:03
..According to RC propaganda priests, bishops etc are married to the Church and therefore
can't have any wifery. And yes I agree with the OP this isn't listed anywhere in the Bibble
as far as I know.

cavortingcheetah
9th Mar 2013, 13:15
Oh I don't know. By becoming a sort of club for paedophile perversions doesn't the church in question, or any other for that matter, help to congregate the bestials into one sanctuary as it were. Marriage? Forsooth! Until the kerfuffle surrounding Cameron's latest peccadillo, what had sex between a man and a woman to do with a practice where sartorial elegance is measured in hemlines?

doubleu-anker
9th Mar 2013, 13:19
Take you point.

As been said before, same sex relationships are soooo normal.

Lon More
9th Mar 2013, 15:04
All down to a mistake back in the 8th C when a scribe made a mistake and wrote "celibate" in stead of "celebrate"

Davaar
9th Mar 2013, 16:57
All down to a mistake back in the 8th C when a scribe made a mistake and wrote "celibate" in stead of "celebrate"


That may well be so.

My current wish is that semi-literates world-wide and without number who loosely toss around the word "celibate" would learn that it does not mean "chaste".

An oath of celibacy is not an oath of chastity.

Lon More
9th Mar 2013, 17:18
unfortunately that would render a not very funny joke even less funny.

racedo
9th Mar 2013, 17:50
Former Church of England bishop held over sex abuse claims - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9674810/Former-Church-of-England-bishop-held-over-sex-abuse-claims.html)

Child sex abuse inquiry damns Chichester church's local safeguarding | Society | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/31/child-sex-abuse-chichester-church)

Child sex abuse allegations uncovered in Church of England files (http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy1089.html)

BBC News - Priests arrested in Eastbourne in sex abuse inquiry (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-17270136)

BBC News - Sex abuse vicar Ronald Johns: Church missed chances to report him (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-20393842)

Church of England allows married clergy so can someone please explain the abuse by COE clergy ?

Milo Minderbinder
9th Mar 2013, 18:28
The main difference seems to be that Catholic abuse appears to be pederasty, while Anglican child abuse appears to to be both homo and heterosexual.
Ease of access I guess......Anglicans have female junior choirstors but Catholics don't.

unclenelli
9th Mar 2013, 20:17
PRIEST - Paedophile Resident In Every Small Town



(Jimmy Savile was Catholic - see his book - Savile, Jimmy (1979). God'll Fix it. Mowbray. ISBN 978-0264664576. (Reference taken from his Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile) page))


Are there anymore involved in current investigations, all of a certain denomination?
Can any trends be drawn between those under investigation and their faith?

lomapaseo
9th Mar 2013, 20:28
Are there anymore involved in current investigations, all of a certain denomination?
Can any trends be drawn between those under investigation and their faith?

as long as we're parsing data can we expand this a bit to reveal more?

Like what sex is involved, male or female as the giver and the taker? That would be a lot more meanigfull for our expert pschy analysis. Can we also decide on the denominator in order to ground the rate data?

should it be per hour, per day? or per sexual type of the giver?

After all that is done we can sort out the religous belief types in order to apportion more apropriate stereotypes

terrain safe
9th Mar 2013, 20:31
I was a server at our local C of E church. I was never abused. Who do I complain too?

unclenelli
9th Mar 2013, 20:55
Lom
Your sarcasm is noted, but it seem that the media only seem to publish reports/allegations about Catholics.

Gary Glitter's 2nd wife was Cuban, so she is highly likely to be Catholic, making him quite probable (nothing listed for his faith online)

The Catholic Padre somewhere I used to work was rumoured to have been sent to Iona to avoid publicity.



No-one ever seems to make allegations against CofE. (I standby to be corrected)

Maybe Henry VIII did us all a big favour...?

Mr Chips
9th Mar 2013, 21:00
No-one ever seems to make allegations against CofE. (I standby to be corrected)


well, apart from all the cases listed above....

In my personal experience, i have never known of a Catholic Priest who abused anyone. I can however name a married CofE vicar who did, and simply got moved out of parish work by the CofE

But people just seem to enjoy throwing accusations around about the Catholic Church.

bnt
9th Mar 2013, 21:06
For a couple of years I was an altar boy in a "flying parish" in a small town, where the priest drove in, did the service, and drove off again. So I was in no danger of abuse, really. But you do have to wonder what stripe of young man volunteers for a profession that denies him a normal, healthy sex life. They start as teenagers, FFS.

(I don't think I ever actually believed what they were saying - I was just a kid. If anything, it was like being on stage in some boring Surrealist repertory play.) :zzz:

jimtherev
9th Mar 2013, 21:41
Lom

The Catholic Padre somewhere I used to work was rumoured to have been sent to Iona to avoid publicity.
I suspect that Iona wouldn't have had him (in any sense!) Taize, on t'other hand, has form, and he would have felt very much at home there.
Allegedly.

I'm neither RC nor CofE, but know that 'my lot' have also had their miscreants - of both sexes - properly-reported at the time... and rightly so. So sad; people rightly want to trust us.

Equally as sad, of course, are the men and women whose lives are at the very least put on hold for a year or two when malicious allegations are made. Even when these are proved to be totally untrue, there are still those who mutter about smoke and fire, lives are tarnished for ever.

DX Wombat
9th Mar 2013, 22:01
......Anglicans have female junior choirstors but Catholics don't. and that, Milo, just shows the extent of your ignorance of the Catholic Church.
It used to be a JB rule that religion was not discussed here but of late there appears to be a concerted campaign against the Catholic Church by persons who choose only to quote those bits of information which suit themselves and delight in reporting any little snippet which they can obtain whether or not it can be verified. They ignore the fact that, regrettably, abuse is NOT restricted to the Catholic Church but has occured in other denominations and religions too. I would suggest that all of you who do this go away and do some proper research.
I have known one RC priest who was eventually convicted of abuse - he pleaded guilty to spare the victim and family any further distress. As soon as the allegation was made he was whizzed off to a specialist centre run by trained priests and religious where he was supervised and remained there until his trial and conviction, well away from children and former parishioners.
In the not too distant past there was a conviction of an Imam for cruel treatment of children attending lessons at a mosque.

Flying Lawyer
9th Mar 2013, 22:20
DXW It used to be a JB rule that religion was not discussed here The practical application of that rule has usually meant that promoting a religious faith is not permitted but mocking those who have a faith is open house.

I'm not a Catholic but I agree entirely with your comments about attacks upon the RC Church and the all too common implication that all RC priests are paedophiles.

racedo
9th Mar 2013, 22:42
Alleged pedophile taught at B.C. school 6 months ago - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2007/10/16/pedophile-cdn.html)

Funny when they get it right as they did with this Canadian in refusing to allow him even study it gets forgotten.

I have previously posted a NYC University study which saw no difference in abuse rates within religions.

Barnardos and NSPCC know who do the abuse within UK and its not religious that they worry about.

DX Wombat
9th Mar 2013, 22:49
Thank you Flying Lawyer and also Racedo. :)

Keef
9th Mar 2013, 22:59
The practical application of that rule has usually meant that promoting a religious faith is not permitted but mocking those who have a faith is open house.

Indeed so. That trend is very apparent on JB!

I know a large number of clergy, of several denominations, and I don't know any about whom there is a whiff of suspicion of inappropriate goings-on with the young folk in the church. I'm aware that there are some such, but they must be a tiny percentage of the total.

There should be none at all, but sadly human beings aren't perfect.

The abuse cases where I have known the individuals (happily very few) have been within marriage, or more often between unmarried partners.

Tankertrashnav
9th Mar 2013, 23:05
May I add my support to Flying Lawyer, Racedo and DX Wombat. I am an atheist and a long-lapsed Catholic (45 years and counting) yet it still sickens me to see the orgy of anti-Catholic bashing that goes on in thread after thread on here. The coy references to "a certain religion" are particularly nauseating. Forty years ago you couldn't pick up a copy of The News of the World without finding the obligatory "naughty vicar" story - now it seems its the RC Church's turn.

Can we have a burning torch symbol beside these threads to symbolise the ignorant mob mentality which seems to overtake many PPruNers when this subject is raised?

edited to add my support for Keef's post which as usual is thoughtful and full of sound sense.

lomapaseo
10th Mar 2013, 00:04
May I add my support to Flying Lawyer, Racedo and DX Wombat

Not even an etal. for opening the drapes and letting in the sunshine :sad:

RatherBeFlying
10th Mar 2013, 04:58
It is indulged in by practitioners of of just about all religions including atheism.

Officeholders in most religions are considered beyond reproach; so generally can beat accusations with denials and everybody sides with exalted religious figure instead of no-account kid -- the safest victim for the victimiser:mad:

In most royal houses, princes in their mid-teens were commonly introduced to the pleasures of the flesh by middle age ladies of the aristocracy. These noble families would benefit later from beneficial appointments by a monarch with fond memories:E

But woe betide female high school teachers these days who get bedded by usually quite eager male students:eek:

Slasher
10th Mar 2013, 05:47
But woe betide female high school teachers these days
who get bedded by usually quite eager male students

Mrs Hoey in English Lit..... ah now THERE was a woman!

..34 I recall, large tits and a penchant for dresses with a slit
down the side. We lived for windy days with HER on student
lunch-break duty! :E

sitigeltfel
10th Mar 2013, 07:10
Can we have a burning torch symbol beside these threads to symbolise the ignorant mob mentality which seems to overtake many PPruNers when this subject is raised?

Any organisation, that when faced with such accusations, seeks to defend, protect and in some cases promote the malfeasant, while using all its powers to discredit the victim, deserves everything that is visited on it.

Capetonian
10th Mar 2013, 09:38
There is a difference between an 'attack' and justifiable criticism. Officials, for want of a better word, of the Catholic Church have been embroiled in so many unsavoury scandals that there is ample scope for criticism.

What is under attack here is not the religion per se, but the way that institutionalised abuse has been covered up. That said, I don't have much time for any of the mainstream religions, but that is not the point.

cavortingcheetah
10th Mar 2013, 11:27
The matter of nomenclature is further complicated by the fact that the Church of England prefers to be known as both a catholic and a reformed church. While many may dismiss this as nothing more than the sly avoidance of the fact that the Church of England's foundation was based upon the lusts of a Welshman, it is perfectly correct to refer to a member of the Church of England as a Catholic. In order to distinguish which geographical centre of worship, Canterbury or Rome, is being signalled out for insults and denigration, it would clarify matters if respective believers were called Roman Catholics or Catholics. One would not wish to be thought extremely rude about one while intending to be totally disgusting about the other.

doubleu-anker
10th Mar 2013, 12:16
Let me try and put it this way.

Is living a life of "celibacy", normal?? If you think so, then why are you married and cohabiting with a member of the opposite sex? If it is not normal, then there is a fair chance, it becoming the breeding ground for abnormal behaviour, would it not??

Yes there others who choose to remain single I am well aware but only by choice.

cavortingcheetah
10th Mar 2013, 12:27
There are those poor unfortunates who remain single not by choice but by design.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxteFexpa7YUxIQYJuvh5U_HZYUneBg8sFxTlZ-IeyH29Yoe5Exg

doubleu-anker
10th Mar 2013, 12:37
Beauty is in the eye of the boholder.

cavortingcheetah
10th Mar 2013, 12:49
Ah yes, Bose like this?
http://media-cache-ec3.pinterest.com/550x/33/db/49/33db491a873ac1623a7c8a8ed7d61ea7.jpg

charliegolf
10th Mar 2013, 14:30
Yes. A fcuking huge clergy, with the vast majority (the great mass of the iceberg) heads down doing their job.

I know of a priest ( who served time) who was shagged bandy by a willing woman who then cries foul. She wanted the lot, and got it, bragging to her pals about 'Father John'. She chose to be the victim when he was uncovered for other things. And jailed, I repeat.

Child protection in the worst abuse times was non existent. Now it is. In every parish. The child protection officers are invariably lay people who take it seriously. The like of abuses we have seen coming out from the past are unlikely to continue, though I'm sure rates akin to norms in society will.

I made my living as a Catholic teacher for 26 years. I did a great job. I abused no- one. The shame of paedophiles is not mine, I'm not taking a share. Neither should the vast majority of the Catholic Church.

CG

DX Wombat
10th Mar 2013, 14:45
Well said Charlie Golf. :D :D :D

cavortingcheetah
10th Mar 2013, 14:50
And number 33 was Bo Derek by John Derek for those who are not into the body.
Yes, it's highly probable that the poor old Romans suffer a twofold problem in Britain. One is that ever since that ghastly monarch Henry VIII, Popery has been held in ill repute in Britain. Goodness, it's only now that parliament is thinking of changing the law so that a Roman can become King. (Not going to use the word Queen because that has sexual connotations and is politically incorrect. The second reason for the woes of the poor Roman Catholic Church is that it has become the manifest face of an evil, paedophilia, which lurks much closer to the jolly old British hearth and toasted crumpet than the populace or the press is prepared to admit. I daresay it exists in a lot of other places but that is no reason for not persecuting its existence in another with great vigour and enthusiasm.
A little less concentration on the sins of the fathers, if sins there were, and a lot more emphasis on preventing such present horrors as exist in Britain today, as female genital mutilation and the sex slave trade rumoured to be rife amongst the Taxistani community among others (to avoid the use of the word 'certain') would not go amiss.

DX Wombat
10th Mar 2013, 14:58
so that a Roman can become KingMonarch would have been a suitable, non-genderspecific word. ;)paedophilia, which lurks much closer to the jolly old British hearth and toasted crumpet than the populace or the press is prepared to admit.Absolutely. The abused children with whom I came into contact when nursing had all been abused by a family member, the very people who should have protected the child. :mad:

racedo
10th Mar 2013, 16:03
The research suggest that the rate of abuse in religious is roughly 4-5% and Catholic church was in line with other religions. The difference is that there is no hierarchical structure in other religions.

John Jay Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report)

Don't like using Wiki as a source but seems to summarise the report well.

Sexual abuse | statistics | NSPCC (http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexualabuse/statistics_wda87833.html)

UK Nspcc suggests level of sexual abuse is abnormally high and 37000 people registered as Sex abusers.

Abuse Of Care Home Children 'Truly Horrific' (http://news.sky.com/story/955374/abuse-of-care-home-children-truly-horrific)

Now the sex abuse within Care homes goes pretty much ignored because it is done in the care of local councils.

cavortingcheetah
10th Mar 2013, 16:07
Etymologically speaking the word Monarch means one who rules alone and so is not suitable for us in the parliamentary dictatorship which constitutes Britain today. The word is also quite ambidextrous, having been used to describe now defunct airlines and rutting stags. The avoidance of the avoidance of non gender specificity and the willingness to enter into robust and not politically correct conversations concerning the practices of other social groups is what is necessary to stamp out the previously mentioned evils which had best have been left in Somalia and other such places of past ill repute. Cultural diversity can be no excuse for the abominable practices of mutilation and sex slavery. The press would be rendering a public service for once were it to publicise the ineptitude at both local and central levels at dealing with these ills and to shame all political parties into adopting strong measures in their manifestoes for the next shambles of a general election.

Edited to add:
And another thing:
Convicted paedophile wins landmark ruling as his name is struck from Sex Offenders' Register | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2291094/Convicted-paedophile-wins-landmark-ruling-struck-Sex-Offenders-Register.html)
How can you expect the immigrants to toe the thin red line in the sand when your own judiciary consistently urinate upon it?

Rail Engineer
10th Mar 2013, 18:21
Abuse is ripe in the Church of England as well, indeed it has formed the basis of many jokes when I was growing up years ago.

There are many tales of Vicars/Choirmaster and alter boys for example, it is simply that the RC church has left itself wide open to ridicule because of the way it has tried to hide and deny what was going on.

The CoE would be suffering in a similar way of the press decided to go looking in that organisation. At present it has not, but there will be as many skeletons in the CoE as are in the RC church once the media do go seeking.

That is the bit that surprises me given the prediliction to "naughty" Vicars that used to grace the UK sunday downmarkets until recent years. I cannot believe that has ever stopped.

Brian Abraham
10th Mar 2013, 20:17
I'm aware that there are some such, but they must be a tiny percentage of the total.Keef, you may wish to google "Christian Brothers Bindoon" for a tale of child slave labour, sex rings and horrendous physical punishment being metered out.

http://nma.gov.au/blogs/inside/files/2011/11/Enduring-Legacy-of-Child-Abuse-Article_2.pdf

stuckgear
10th Mar 2013, 20:20
a tale of child slave labour, sex rings and horrendous physical punishment being metered out.



Sounds just like Parliament !

stuckgear
10th Mar 2013, 20:28
it is simply that the RC church has left itself wide open

probably from all the buggery !


seriously though, i have to agree with these points:


paedophilia, which lurks much closer to the jolly old British hearth and toasted crumpet than the populace or the press is prepared to admit

research suggest that the rate of abuse in religious is roughly 4-5% and Catholic church was in line with other religions. The difference is that there is no hierarchical structure in other religions.


The CoE would be suffering in a similar way of the press decided to go looking in that organisation. At present it has not, but there will be as many skeletons in the CoE as are in the RC church once the media do go seeking.


and it seems that under islam non-consensual sex with minors is not only the norm but the basis of the doctrine of muhammed.

Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Compendium_of_Muslim_Texts)5:58:236 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/058-sbt.php#005.058.236)

Narrated Aisha:Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, "You have detained the people because of your necklace." But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah's Apostle although that hit was very painful.
Sahih Bukhari (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Compendium_of_Muslim_Texts)8: 82: 828 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/082-sbt.php#008.082.828)

vulcanised
10th Mar 2013, 20:37
Seems to me that many clergy regard under-age and/or homosexual activity as simply a perk of the job.

Rail Engineer
10th Mar 2013, 21:47
And now for the Nuns.

A Nun's Testimony (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/nun.htm)

http://www.jimgoad.net/nun******.html

Nuns as sexual victims get little notice (http://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/nuns_as_victims.htm)

http://religiouschildabuse.********.co.uk/2011/06/nuns-among-worst-perpetrators-of.html

Stalin called Religion "the Opiate of the masses", and as I get older I begin to think he was not wrong in this. There is clearly a large population of people throughout the world who seek some form of authoritative control to oversee their lives, in extreme cases this manifests itself in the membership of cults.

At least one Religion is growing whilst the older established ones are falling down through scandal and liberalisation. This Religion preaches intolerance and blind obedience by its followers.

I find it worrying that such a religion appears to be prospering when what it offers is such a contradiction upon what people generally suggest they do not want, and is quite beyond my capacity to understand.

doubleu-anker
10th Mar 2013, 22:33
Meanwhile i am still awaiting a response from my post no. 30

charliegolf
10th Mar 2013, 22:37
No, it is not, and in the case of the church, provided a secure hiding place for social misfits of various kinds- gays being viewed as such right up to the 70s ish.

CG (IMO)

Rail Engineer
10th Mar 2013, 22:52
Meanwhile i am still awaiting a response from my post no. 30As no-one else has decided to respond, I will stick my head above the parapet.

In my opinion the answer has to be No, simply because the reproductive urge is inbuilt and ingrained into every human being.

Obviously there are those who are not programmed as are the rest of us, the basic intent of the sexual act being the propogation of the species, however it is the repression of this instinct that (to me at least) seems to underly so many problems that mankind has experienced over the centuries.

Psychiatrists now say that far from providing information, torture over the Centuries has been used to provide a source of sexual excitement and pleasure that torturers could not achieve in a normal manner.

Suppressed sexual urges, and guilt about sexual urges especially those brought about by Religion have been the making of many murderers and psychopaths.

doubleu-anker
10th Mar 2013, 23:04
Amen, to that.

Rail Engineer
10th Mar 2013, 23:07
Not sure what your point is, fella, but it was hardly a question likely to put too much stress onto the ingenius mind, and you seem to be happy on the answer.

doubleu-anker
10th Mar 2013, 23:19
Oh i'm a simple person and very proud of if.

The intellectuals? Sorry, not impressed.

I do however have a degree in life.

We have all seen what a mess the intellectuals have made of the world to date.

I do have some idea what is right and wrong.

Rail Engineer
10th Mar 2013, 23:31
I cannot disagree with you that intellectuals have done much to damage the shape of Society.

Testament the enormous damage done by the "Magnificent Five" (as known by Moscow), known to everyone else now as the Cambridge Spy Ring.

Some of the most gullible people I have met on my travels have been Intellectuals.

The Left of course love our Intellectuals but always round up theirs and shoot them as soon as they have served their purpose and the Coup is secured. :ok:

500N
11th Mar 2013, 10:41
Our (as in Australia's) poor Cardinal Pell, Australia's highest xxxxx and cover up artist got his balls in a knot over an article in the Fairfax newspapers.

"as a smear of the most vindictive kind".

Of course it was, should be more of it since they managed to cover up
and bury so many stories in the past and pervert the course of justice.

Oh how they hate it when it is on the other foot :O

Cardinal Pell angered by newspaper 'smear' (http://www.theage.com.au/national/cardinal-pell-angered-by-newspaper-smear-20130311-2fw9j.html)

Tankertrashnav
11th Mar 2013, 11:28
Stalin called Religion "the Opiate of the masses", and as I get older I begin to think he was not wrong in this.


I rather think that quote is from Karl Marx, not Stalin. Wrong century, wrong nationality, but otherwise close :rolleyes: Incidentally I'd hesitate before bringing Stalin in as an examplar of morality. His own preferred method of abuse was a bullet in the back of the neck, even more unpleasant than being buggered by a priest, I would say.


research suggest that the rate of abuse in religious is roughly 4-5% and Catholic church was in line with other religions. The difference is that there is no hierarchical structure in other religions.


I'm puzzled by that assertion, as the Church of England is a hierarchical organisation as are some other, but not all, Protestant churches. If you meant non-Christian religions I am on less familiar ground, but certainly Judaism has a hierarchical strucure, Islam less so.

DX Wombat
11th Mar 2013, 16:51
To prove to the sceptics here that abuse does occur elsewhere read this. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-21740704) At the moment this is simply an allegation but that hasn't stopped the sceptics previously. Before anyone thinks I'm taking a swipe at a different religion, I am not, it would have been just as disgusting to me if it had been members of the C of E, Methodists, Jewish Community, WI, YMCA etc.

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 17:48
Yes, DX, there is that latest one in the news today.

BUT, and it's a big BUT, "being connected to the school" does not mean that these men are any sort of "preachers" (Imams or those under the Imam, as examples) or are even anything more than just ordinary workers like gardeners, etc.

They may well be Muslim, but that does not mean they are anything like the Priests, Vicars, Reverends, etc, of the various other religions who have been up to no good with minors of both sexes. All it means, until someone actually says that the 3 men arrested were actually more than just, for example, handymen or janitors or some other workers, is that three alleged perverts have been arrested, it doesn't mean that they are on the same level as the various other offenders mentioned in this thread, or that there has been any organised cover-up by others involved in said religion.


Not a criticism, as such, DX, just trying to keep things clear before everyone starts foaming at the mouth.

Mr Chips
11th Mar 2013, 18:14
but that does not mean they are anything like the Priests, Vicars, Reverends, etc, of the various other religions who have been up to no good with minors of both sexes

Yes it does. A kiddy fiddler is a kiddy fiddler, regardless of whether they are a priest,vicar,Imam, butcher,baker.candlestick maker.

Why does it matter what their profession is?

Milo Minderbinder
11th Mar 2013, 18:30
I have no knowledge of the alleged offences, however the suggestion that they occurred at that school does not surprise me.

I have a (small degree) of knowledge of that school, having gone there a few times for work.
Its a muslim religious boarding and day school. Its housed in what was the Royal Albert Hospital - a victorian gothic pile setup as a home for incurables and the subnormal. Inside it hasn't changed much - bare stone walls and floors, unheated. Inside, the building is horrendous and depressive. If I lived there, I'd probably feel suicidal. Forcing children to live there is - in my view - oppressive psychological abuse in itself.
Most (all?) of the teachers are women. When I was there I had to interface with one particular lady - but she was only allowed to talk to me if chaperoned by another lady, and in the presence of an elderly male caretaker.
The caretaker was present 24 hours, and slept in a camp bed in his office near the main door. I call him caretaker - gate guard / moral enforcer / zealot would be closer to the mark.
The school itself is like a fortress, set in large grounds with a security perimeter. To me it looks more like its there to keep the kids in, not let them out. The girls are not allowed off site, indeed they're not even seen. On one occasion when I attended a few girls were visible a couple of hundred yards away playing netball (while wearing niqabs....) but were quickly rushed away when the staff realised I was on site. They're put there by their families to be trained to be nice muslim girls, out of sight, out of mind. Trained to be obedient and subservient.
There are extensive external lawns - but the children are never seen on them. Indeed, they are never seen from outside - period.
If anywhere was almost designed to be set up to allow the kind of suggested behaviour, in isolation with the girls exluded from any kind of external contact, this place would be a prime candidate.

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 18:47
Yes it does. A kiddy fiddler is a kiddy fiddler, regardless of whether they are a priest,vicar,Imam, butcher,baker.candlestick maker.

Why does it matter what their profession is?

It does matter in the context of this thread, something that the thread title and previous comments regarding "The local priest likes little boys bums" (I'm sure you know the song) and the covering up of such by the various establishments makes very clear.

As I said, until told otherwise (and Milo has pointed things in the direction I was talking about), all we have is 3 males who have been up to no good with at least one female minor. Since there is nothing to say that the men involved were anything more than, for example, caretakers then, when thinking of the topic of this thread, it is actually irrelevant as we are talking about those who do actually spread the "Word of God (or whoever)" and not kiddy fiddlers in general.

Feel free to start a thread about kiddy fiddlers in general if you want, but there's no sense in getting things sidetracked over something that may have no relation to the subject at hand just because they were followers and not preachers of A.N.Other "religion".

Milo Minderbinder
11th Mar 2013, 18:57
Hellsbrink

You're right, we don't know what happened, or who were involved. And don't forget that at this stage its just an investigation - not even any charges
However, knowing the building I would find it impossible to believe that any kind of sexual abuse against the children could happen there without the complicity of someone in a position of seniority. However that does not imply that those involved were the muslim equivalent of "the clergy" - if such a concept even makes sense.

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 19:21
Well, this is the thing.

The small matter of a complaint being filed a few days after the alleged offence took place, followed by no hue-and-cry over the Police executing a search warrant the day after the complaint was filed, points, in my opinion, to there not being any "organised" cover up, never mind to the extent of some of the other examples (Catholic and Anglican) in this thread. Let's face it, someone was ALLOWED, and possibly encouraged, to make a complaint against these men, unlike the other incidents mentioned where certain members of whatever religion involved were merely spirited away elsewhere to continue doing what they do once the heat started being turned up.

It ain't like the fight and shouting the RC Church kicked up over here when the Police decided to raid various establishments whilst investigating assorted claims of child abuse by the RC Church, and, in all honesty, I would not be surprised if one of those women "in charge" have done the encouraging just to make sure something gets done over someone who has had a rather unhealthy outlook towards the students, especially if he is seen to be "lower" in the hierarchy and must be reminded of his place.

Either way, someone has agreed that the Police should be allowed to be involved, they haven't really tried to squish it. That's a big difference compared to others, to me anyway.

Mr Chips
11th Mar 2013, 19:38
The reason I point out that all kiddy fiddlers are just kiddy fiddlers is because, from reading this thread, you would be forgiven for thinking that ONLY Catholic Priests sexually assault people...

Looks like that isn't true...

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 19:42
Not at all, Mr. Chips, you only had to reach the 8th post in the thread to see that wasn't the case.

But I do think you'll have a hard time trying to find another religious order which has been implicated in so many cases worldwide.........

Milo Minderbinder
11th Mar 2013, 19:50
Mr Chips
I think its generally true that wherever you have adults in supervision over children, the risk of kiddie-fiddling exists. However in most environments those involved will usually be caught and dealt with. However in some environments the authorities themselves are involved in the mire, and further in some cases contrive to suppress the evidence and to hide the guilty.
I think the general contention with the catholic church is more over the attempts to hide and suppress the evidence, so allowing the abuse to continue for extended periods. In most other organisations the guilty would have been identified much earlier.
But yes - it does happen elsewhere. I can remember a C of E Verger locally who exploited his position in the Boys Clubs organisation to indulge in c hild molestation. The queer thing was he was also a barman at the University and people used to joke about him there as being a kiddy-fiddler.......little did they realise the truth of the jokes.

Mr Chips
11th Mar 2013, 20:21
Milo I think its generally true that wherever you have adults in supervision over children, the risk of kiddie-fiddling exists. totally agree. I think it is important to remember that not everyone in those situations is a kiddy fiddler (and I know you didn't suggest such a thing)

Hellsbrink
But I do think you'll have a hard time trying to find another religious order which has been implicated in so many cases worldwide.........

Whilst it has already been quoted that the Roman Catholic offending rate is broadly similar to any other offending rate, its also true to say that you would have a hard time finding another religious order similar to the Catholic Church that is worldwide... So comparisons to the CofE wouldn't fit that test, and yet they have a history not only of offending but covering up/moving people

As an aside, I spoke to my dear old Mum yesterday, and asked her if she knew personally of any Catholic Priest who had been caught fiddling. Now, bearing in mind she is in her 70s and has worked extensively within the RC church at Diocesan level...she could think of none.

She did know Jimmy Savile when he was younger though :E

hellsbrink
12th Mar 2013, 04:53
Whilst it has already been quoted that the Roman Catholic offending rate is broadly similar to any other offending rate, its also true to say that you would have a hard time finding another religious order similar to the Catholic Church that is worldwide... So comparisons to the CofE wouldn't fit that test, and yet they have a history not only of offending but covering up/moving people

Well, you dropped a bollock there because the CoE, or Anglican Church, IS a worldwide organisation stretching from Alaska to New Zealand covering huge swathes of Africa and South America.

So, despite the nature of the Church being worldwide, the sheer numbers of allegations are nothing compared to the RC Church.

But you are right, not every priest is a paedophile same as not every teacher is one.

sitigeltfel
12th Mar 2013, 05:56
Very convenient ;)
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/9923800/Vatican-department-shares-building-with-Italys-biggest-gay-sauna.html)

G-CPTN
12th Mar 2013, 12:22
is responsible for missionary activities.

Would that be the missionary position?

Mr Chips
12th Mar 2013, 12:44
hellsbrink not sure whose bollock that is, but I checked, I have dropped none. I specifically mentioned the Church of England, not the wider Anglican faith. Any reference to abuse within the Church of England will not be as numerous as the Roman Catholic Church

From the CofE's own website

The Church of England is organised into two provinces; each led by an archbishop (Canterbury for the Southern Province and York for the Northern). These two provinces cover England, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, the Isles of Scilly and even a small part of Wales; not to mention continental Europe.

Each province is built from dioceses. There are 43 in England and the Diocese in Europe has clergy and congregations in the rest of Europe, Morocco, Turkey and the Asian countries of the former Soviet Union.


Weirdly no mention of Alaska, New Zealand, Africa or my left testicle

I appreciate what you are saying, but best not to accuse people of dropping testicles unless you are sure...

Seldomfitforpurpose
12th Mar 2013, 13:17
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu90/vanessa68_2009/Macros%20and%20gifs/th_hrzfab.gif

airship
12th Mar 2013, 15:45
And 99.99999% of it all is perpetrated by the parents or close-relatives of the child. :confused:

Invariably, the new-born is never given any choice about what religion (if any) he/she might choose themselves when old enough. The choices have already been made on their behalf - by their own parents and relatives. As mere babes, they invariably suffer from the equivalent of water-boarding torture (when being Baptised in CofE or RC); having the fore-skins from their penises removed (worldwide inc. the 1st World); or their clitorises simply being amputated completely (in Africa mostly, but sometimes also in the 1st World).

So, can we agree that the very worst child-abusers are the parents etc. themselves...?!

When it comes to child sexual-abuse, there again, it's the parents and close-relatives that are the major culprits apparently in over 90% of cases these days.

Perhaps it's time that the parents and their close-relatives put their own houses in order (whether to do with "child abuse" or "child sexual-abuse") first before blaming it all on Catholic priests or school teachers etc.

Undoubtedly, there are far more child abusers represented in numbers and/or percentages of the general population by parents and/or close-relatives. But they're never ever asked to account because they are in the absolute majority and vote...?!

One day, a little boy will compare his Johnnie with another boy's. Or when all grown up (ie. over 18), will encounter a female sexaul partner, who despite all his best efforts, does not feel any pleasure.

Yeh, blame it all on the sick parents, then find scapegoats... :rolleyes:

Lancelot37
12th Mar 2013, 15:48
Not at all, Mr. Chips, you only had to reach the 8th post in the thread to see that wasn't the case.

But I do think you'll have a hard time trying to find another religious order which has been implicated in so many cases worldwide.........
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hear, hear. They should all be put against a wall and shot.

charliegolf
12th Mar 2013, 15:59
Airship, you are, of course correct in your general assertion. But,

they invariably suffer from the equivalent of water-boarding torture (when being Baptised in CofE or RC)

.... seriously? If you have witnessed ANYTHING in a church, at a baptism* which caused you to feel you've seen a child tortured, then I have 2 observations.
1, you move in some seriously weird circles; and 2, you are de facto complicit in child abuse.

Thought not.

CG

* where water is trickled ceremonially over a child's head- the only kind I've seen in either church.

cavortingcheetah
12th Mar 2013, 16:12
In another fifty or so years in Britain it won't matter anyway.
Natural sexual procreation will have been banned because it discriminates against same sex couples. All progeny will have to be created in test tubes to designer specifications and will allotted to successful applicants after a long screening process. Since natural reproduction will become unnecessary, sexual organs will have been factored out of the test tube breeding protocol. Within one or two generations there will no longer be any physical temptation for sexual interference between the older generation and the younger. Besides which, all potential hormonal levels will be reduced during laboratory incubation to remove any natural sexual desires. Experts estimate that this new breeding rationale would save the NHS at least £90 billion a year by 2028 in today's money and the programme is being actively supported by Lord Oakham and Ed Balls and Miriam Clegg, who says that the future of British energy lies in building more windmills supplied by the Spanish company Acciona of which she is apparently a director.

airship
12th Mar 2013, 16:12
charliegolf wrote: then I have 2 observations.
1, you move in some seriously weird circles; and 2, you are de facto complicit in child abuse.

As I have no children of my own and never attended any baptisms or their equivalents or religious rites etc. in other religions concerning others' children, I fail to see how I am de facto complict in anything. But please continue. Do you own your own house?

charliegolf
12th Mar 2013, 16:17
I apologise. Until your response, I assumed you purported to know what you were writing about. My mistake.

CG

hellsbrink
12th Mar 2013, 18:43
I specifically mentioned the Church of England, not the wider Anglican faith

And since the CoE is the Mother Church of the Anglican faith, with the Archbishop of Canterbury being the symbolic head of both the CoE and Anglican Communion and the Lambeth Conferences (the big meeting of the different Primates of the faith) being held on CoE turf, you cannot make that distinction between the two unless you are going to say that only the Vatican is counted as the Roman Catholic Church and the rest are just part of the "wider" Catholic faith.

The CoE is part of the Anglican faith, same as the Scottish Catholic Church is merely a part of the Roman Catholic Communion and has it's own hierarchy. So unless you are going to sit there and tell us all that there is actually a difference between the two, and explain EXACTLY why there is a difference between the CoE being a part of the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Kirk being a part of the Catholic Communion, I would say you should stop right there.

doubleu-anker
12th Mar 2013, 18:52
sitigeltfel

Conveniently, sums it up for me. Cant have been out of the ordinary.

thing
12th Mar 2013, 21:34
But you are right, not every priest is a paedophile same as not every teacher is one.

Which is exactly the attitude that stops trainee male teachers from wanting to teach in primary schools. A survey was done at teacher training colleges and unis about three years ago asking why so few male trainees wanted to teach in primary. The over riding reply was that they didn't want to be seen as kiddy fiddlers. By the way I teach in primaries and I'm ever so glad that I'm probably not a paedophile.

You may as well say that not every lorry driver or doctor is a mass murderer (Sutcliffe and Shipman) oh lets add everyone who's surname begins with 'S' as well.

Gertrude the Wombat
12th Mar 2013, 21:38
Invariably, the new-born is never given any choice about what religion (if any) he/she might choose themselves when old enough.
Yes.

Odd how those who bang on about "freedom of religion" rarely seem to think that it should apply to their own children.

Mac the Knife
12th Mar 2013, 22:09
"You may as well say that not every lorry driver or doctor is a mass murderer (Sutcliffe and Shipman) oh lets add everyone who's surname begins with 'S' as well."

Yep, that's about right - seems to be the attitude of the General Medical Council now.

Did you know that a doctor in the UK can't write himself a prescription for anything? If he wants an antibiotic for his bronchitis or anything stronger than a Panadol for his toothache he has to beg the local nurse-practitioner to give him a scrip. Might be a junkie or unfit to practice you see...

Mac

:cool:

tony draper
12th Mar 2013, 22:15
Do they no longer carry a loads of pills round in their bags on house calls?:confused:

vulcanised
12th Mar 2013, 22:28
What house calls?

thing
13th Mar 2013, 01:43
Did you know that a doctor in the UK can't write himself a prescription for anything?

Yep, we have a couple of doctors at my flying club so am well aware of the restrictions thereof. Mind you being a bit older than the average bear I know that not every doctor of medicine was or is squeaky clean when it came to prescription drugs or several drops of the hard stuff. I'm not passing judgement here, just pointing out that we are all human.

lomapaseo
13th Mar 2013, 02:17
Yep, we have a couple of doctors at my flying club so am well aware of the restrictions thereof. Mind you being a bit older than the average bear I know that not every doctor of medicine was or is squeaky clean when it came to prescription drugs or several drops of the hard stuff. I'm not passing judgement here, just pointing out that we are all human.

just like paedophiles

Brian Abraham
13th Mar 2013, 02:24
One day, a little boy will compare his Johnnie with another boy's. Or when all grown up (ie. over 18), will encounter a female sexaul partner, who despite all his best efforts, does not feel any pleasure.Don't be so quick to judge airship. Up until I saw the following show I would have been up in arms about female circumcision, but not now.But some women say cultural reasons are valid, and some say that they’re still able to lead healthy sex lives and achieve orgasms – even when they’ve undergone the most severe forms of the procedure.

Clear Cut: Overview : SBS Insight (http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/overview/514/Clear-Cut#.UT_hMzfgy1s)

Each case has to be considered on its merits, and who are we to dictate the cultural norms of another society. The initiation rites of the Australian Aboriginal male would turn me off, but its not up to me.

thing
13th Mar 2013, 03:06
just like paedophiles Indeed, and just like the guys who dropped the Zyklon B at Auschwitz et al.

Mac the Knife
13th Mar 2013, 04:35
"I know that not every doctor of medicine was or is squeaky clean when it came to prescription drugs or several drops of the hard stuff."

Just like pilots then?

And your solution for that small number of a large group is to ban everyone from prescribing (and presumably buying a bottle of Scotch too).

Most of the pilots and doctors who make serious errors are not on drugs and stone cold sober (viz Afriqiya and AF447).

Mac

:suspect:

thing
13th Mar 2013, 11:09
Not at all, just commenting on the fact that it seems a little nonsensical to say that because 'x did this not everyone who has the same job will be the same as x'. I don't see the connection between being a paedophile and being a teacher and it's a bit erking when people have the general view of 'Oh it's OK he's a teacher but the chances are he's not a paedophile.' Why thank you very much. I suppose if you were a bus driver or a quantity surveyor you're probably not a paedophile either.

charliegolf
13th Mar 2013, 17:58
it's a bit erking when people have the general view of 'Oh it's OK he's a teacher but the chances are he's not a paedophile.'

I have lived a sheltered life! 26 years as a teacher/Deputy/Head and I have never ever encountered such a view being expressed.

CG

cockney steve
13th Mar 2013, 17:59
As a totally cynical disbeliever in ANY organised religion's motives (declared V actual) the real issue is in the hypocracy displayed by those organisations when a deviant is found among their numbers.

Let's assume you all accept my hypothesis that they don't believe the bunkum they preach.....but their Congregations DO swallow this panacea for the imperfections in their worldly existence....I can live with that.

What I abhor is the "Whiter than White" proponents of virtuous moral behaviour who cover-up the misdeeds in their midst.
Abuse of trust.....they prey on the weak and defenceless, who look on these "moral guardians" for strength and support.

At least dirty-raincoat flashers and playground predators are quite plain to see,if they're spotted.......but, IF they were rearing Police, fire-service,nurse's or Armed-service's uniforms, A level of decent, respectable behaviour would be expected. If they were,in those circumstances, Kiddy Fiddling, I would consider the masquerader as a far more serious offender than the aforementioned "civilian -perve"

THAT'S WHAT IS SO OFFENSIVE ABOUT RELIGIONS, THEY BETRAY THE TRUST AND MAKE VICTIMS OF ALL INVOLVED.

YES! even the "straight",honest and dare I say "believing" clergy.

How they can continue to serve a warped, decietful and corrupt heirarchy, is beyond me.....I'd have some respect for them if they started a breakaway organisation.

Some years ago, I formed a friendship with a Kiwi wh had a 6-months house-exchange in the UK...He knew my contempt for the "religion Business" and despite him being a minister of some sort, we got along famously and had many a "theological" debate.
The man was a LAY preacher, did it in his spare time because he believed it gave some strength and comfort to society's vulnerable.
I respected him.
(he wouldn't entertain the thought of doing it as a job/carreer or joining one of the "big business" religions.

thing
13th Mar 2013, 20:46
I have lived a sheltered life! 26 years as a teacher/Deputy/Head and I have never ever encountered such a view being expressed:ugh::) I'm replying and commenting on Hellsbrink's post But you are right, not every priest is a paedophile same as not every teacher is one. and trying unsuccessfully it would seem to point out that teachers aren't particularly known for being paedophiles in the first place; so why was it said? He could equally have said 'not every priest is a paedophile same as not every car mechanic is one.'

The implication, to me at any rate being that in Joe Public's mind teachers are more likely to be paedophiles than most other profession. But I'm probably wrong, I usually am.

Let me put it another way. If as a recent graduate I expressed an interest in teaching and someone said 'Not every teacher is a paedophile you know' would it fill you with joy or would you be slightly put off? Even ever so slightly?

Tankertrashnav
13th Mar 2013, 22:35
The man was a LAY preacher, did it in his spare time


Oh dear - please read through your posts before clicking submit!

Lonewolf_50
13th Mar 2013, 23:12
Indeed, and just like the guys who dropped the Zyklon B at Auschwitz et al.
thing, if that's the best your reasoning can produce, please don't teach.

hellsbrink
14th Mar 2013, 05:19
and trying unsuccessfully it would seem to point out that teachers aren't particularly known for being paedophiles in the first place; so why was it said? He could equally have said 'not every priest is a paedophile same as not every car mechanic is one.'

The implication, to me at any rate being that in Joe Public's mind teachers are more likely to be paedophiles than most other profession. But I'm probably wrong, I usually am.

Let me put it another way. If as a recent graduate I expressed an interest in teaching and someone said 'Not every teacher is a paedophile you know' would it fill you with joy or would you be slightly put off? Even ever so slightly?

Let me put it this way, there was an argument posted by Milo about how when you have adults supervising children there is always a RISK of kiddy fiddling. Now, which profession has the most contact with children? Would that be a truck driver or a teacher? Do you get it now? Do you see how using most other professions as a comparison to priests regarding child abuse would be as ridiculous as you knotting up your silk panties over the comment I made?


Oh, and don't sit there and tell the world that there was never a rumour, unfounded or not, regarding at least one teacher when you were at school. Without even starting on the regular reports of what teachers have done to their pupils, worldwide, these rumours can gain momentum and the profession does get tarred.

So now you see why I made such a comparison, because we know that, like teachers, or social workers in care homes, or paediatric nurses, or Scout leaders, etc, not every priest likes little boys bums. So untie your panties, pull your neck in, and read EVERY post in the thread so you can comprehend why certain comments are made before shooting from the lip in the way you just have.

500N
14th Mar 2013, 05:26
With Teachers, I believe another reason exists.

You can go 20 years into a career and it only takes one person
to make an accusation and all hell breaks loose - and whether
cleared or not, the result is usually the same.

Now in today's school with the rules as they are, the kids
don't know them so can easily run up to a teacher and grab
hold of them, all completely innocently but to someone outside,
it might not look like it.

Just my HO from talking to teachers.

thing
14th Mar 2013, 12:36
Oh, and don't sit there and tell the world that there was never a rumour, unfounded or not, regarding at least one teacher when you were at school.

Of course there was. But the important sentence above is 'unfounded or not'. Children, especially adolescents, revel in playground gossip. It's part and parcel of being a teacher or indeed any position at a school especially in a comprehensive.

You accuse me of not reading your posts, try reading mine. The very first line in my first post was 'Which is exactly the attitude that stops trainee male teachers from wanting to teach in primary schools.'. Which is the point I'm trying to drive home. There's a massive imbalance in the ratio of male to female teachers in primaries. Often a male teacher is the only male figure in a child's life. If I didn't live so close to my grandson and see him every day he would have literally no male contact at all, every single member of staff at his school are female.

I visit both primaries and comprehensives and the imbalance stands out a mile. Unless we drop this 'tarred profession' attitude to paraphrase yourself then we never are going to get the balance sorted out.

By the way I don't wear the silk panties that you seem familiar with.

Lonewolf_50
14th Mar 2013, 13:34
thing:

Wasn't aware that going commando was your fashion choice (perhaps oversharing?) but if it works for you, roll with it! :ok:

thing
14th Mar 2013, 16:02
Never got into the habit, couldn't afford luxuries like underwear when I was a kid...:).

thing
14th Mar 2013, 16:12
Indeed, and just like the guys who dropped the Zyklon B at Auschwitz et al. thing, if that's the best your reasoning can produce, please don't teach.

Would you teach that they weren't human? :confused: What were they then, some uknown species?

Mac the Knife
14th Mar 2013, 16:51
Yup, all doctors are potential paedophiles because they have to lift up little Suzie's vest to listen to her chest or pull Johnnie's pants down to see if both balls are in the bag.

Mind you, I dunno if real doctors do any of that kind of stuff these days - safer to leave it to the nurse-practitioners, while they sit at their desks filling in the ever increasing piles of bumpf to prove that their practice is Socially Concious and Non-Discriminatory as well as being Racially Sensitive and etc, etc. while submitting to yet another Police Clearance to prove that they are not KIDDY FIDDLERS or MASS MURDERERS.

My son Tom wanted to go to medical school (he'd have been the 5th generation of doctors) - thank God, due to Affirmative Action he was passed over and is now happily doing a pure science BSc. and hopes to go to Oxford or MIT.

No-one but a fool or a knave would do what passes for medicine these days.

Mac

:cool:

thing
14th Mar 2013, 17:09
You've just reminded me of an episode here in the UK a few years ago which you may or may not have heard about. I think it was in Plymouth that some recently released paedophiles were being rehoused. The local residents took umbrage at this and went on the rampage, including beating up a couple of paediatric nurses who lived on the estate. Well I suppose it begins with paed dunnit. The bottom feeders in this country never cease to amaze me.

hellsbrink
14th Mar 2013, 17:13
Of course there was. But the important sentence above is 'unfounded or not'. Children, especially adolescents, revel in playground gossip. It's part and parcel of being a teacher or indeed any position at a school especially in a comprehensive.

You accuse me of not reading your posts, try reading mine. The very first line in my first post was 'Which is exactly the attitude that stops trainee male teachers from wanting to teach in primary schools.'. Which is the point I'm trying to drive home. There's a massive imbalance in the ratio of male to female teachers in primaries. Often a male teacher is the only male figure in a child's life. If I didn't live so close to my grandson and see him every day he would have literally no male contact at all, every single member of staff at his school are female.

I visit both primaries and comprehensives and the imbalance stands out a mile. Unless we drop this 'tarred profession' attitude to paraphrase yourself then we never are going to get the balance sorted out.

By the way I don't wear the silk panties that you seem familiar with.

Then it must be the satin ones that are in a real knot because you still do not get the gist of the comment and would rather rant and rave over something that was NOT said or implied instead of seeing the meaning behind the comment made and why it was made in regard to another post by someone else.

But, hey, if keeping this sort of nonsense going whilst ignoring the meaning and reason for the comment so you can get the front seat on the Outrage Bus is what gets your rocks off then keep it coming, but I don't think others will be happy about you making such a ridiculous fuss over something that wasn't actually said unless you are going to tell me where, in the original comment regarding "Not all priests or teachers do the diddy with a kiddy", I actually said that "All male teachers are paedophiles".

I know I never said that, you are the one saying I did

Over to you, just let me get the Karsk on intravenous first because I think this could be a long session.

thing
14th Mar 2013, 17:31
I'm not the one having the straw man argument. I never said that you said that all teachers were paedophiles, nor am I working my way up to a frenzy about it; on the contrary it's you who appear to be upset, nor was I the one to descend into silly personal comments. However if it pleases you, yes you are right so lets leave it there.

hellsbrink
14th Mar 2013, 17:36
Actually, thing, you did do the the very things you are saying you didn't do.

And your panties were knotted here (http://www.pprune.org/7739028-post79.html)

thing
14th Mar 2013, 17:40
:rolleyes: And where exactly in that post did I accuse you of saying that all teachers are paedophiles? I'll give you a reply to that and then I'm done.

hellsbrink
14th Mar 2013, 18:06
And where exactly in that post did I accuse you of saying that all teachers are paedophiles? I'll give you a reply to that and then I'm done.

Oh, Jesus H Christ, are you so determined to try and make ONE thing look like you somehow "won" you have to resort to saying things like the above after you came out with

Which is exactly the attitude that stops trainee male teachers from wanting to teach in primary schools. A survey was done at teacher training colleges and unis about three years ago asking why so few male trainees wanted to teach in primary. The over riding reply was that they didn't want to be seen as kiddy fiddlers. By the way I teach in primaries and I'm ever so glad that I'm probably not a paedophile.

You may as well say that not every lorry driver or doctor is a mass murderer (Sutcliffe and Shipman) oh lets add everyone who's surname begins with 'S' as well.

I'm replying and commenting on Hellsbrink's post....

and trying unsuccessfully it would seem to point out that teachers aren't particularly known for being paedophiles in the first place; so why was it said? He could equally have said 'not every priest is a paedophile same as not every car mechanic is one.'

The implication, to me at any rate being that in Joe Public's mind teachers are more likely to be paedophiles than most other profession. But I'm probably wrong, I usually am.

Let me put it another way. If as a recent graduate I expressed an interest in teaching and someone said 'Not every teacher is a paedophile you know' would it fill you with joy or would you be slightly put off? Even ever so slightly?

Of course there was. But the important sentence above is 'unfounded or not'. Children, especially adolescents, revel in playground gossip. It's part and parcel of being a teacher or indeed any position at a school especially in a comprehensive.

You accuse me of not reading your posts, try reading mine. The very first line in my first post was 'Which is exactly the attitude that stops trainee male teachers from wanting to teach in primary schools.'. Which is the point I'm trying to drive home. There's a massive imbalance in the ratio of male to female teachers in primaries. Often a male teacher is the only male figure in a child's life. If I didn't live so close to my grandson and see him every day he would have literally no male contact at all, every single member of staff at his school are female.

I visit both primaries and comprehensives and the imbalance stands out a mile. Unless we drop this 'tarred profession' attitude to paraphrase yourself then we never are going to get the balance sorted out.


YOU are the one who started this off with a nonsensical argument based on YOU misreading something and deciding it meant something completely different. YOU are the one who has stirred things up by putting words into my mouth for I never even HINTED that any teacher was some sort of paedo or had any sexual attraction to any child. YOU are the one who got the panties twisted, YOU are the one who has made a mountain out of a molehill. YOU are the one who has made all of the above comments which had nothing to do with my original comment which I explained fully.

Not me. But YOU are the one who inferred that I did say that somehow the profession had been tarred because of ONE comment which did not state anything like that whatsoever. So, again, pull your bloody neck in.

airship
16th Mar 2013, 13:52
charliegolf wrote: I apologise. Until your response, I assumed you purported to know what you were writing about. My mistake.

CG

Obviously, you're not apologising for having written earlier: then I have 2 observations.
1, you move in some seriously weird circles; and 2, you are de facto complicit in child abuse.

So, I repeat (for the last time): Do you own your own house?

charliegolf
16th Mar 2013, 16:20
Airship,

Yaaaaawn!

CG (House owner, sans mortgage)

Rail Engineer
16th Mar 2013, 17:08
I see that the BBC are crowing about their treatment of Cardinal Napier on the Radio last night.

The radio presenter Stephen Nolan went into paroxyms of feigned horror when Cardinal Napier stated that pedopihillia is a "a a psychological condition" stating that it was nothing of the sort and subsequently pillioried the poor man demanding that he must resign immediately.

The BBC has continued to spin this line all day.

Unfortunately for them and for Nolan, pedophillia IS classified as a psychiatric disorder and has beemn for many years.

I caught the end of the interview and could hear Nolan hyperventilating with delight and excitement as he demanded more and more strongly that the Cardinal should resign.

I find it completely shocking and deeply disturbing that the BBC has engaged in what can be only be described as a modern day public lynching mob behaviour, and furthermore appears to be leading and inciting this on the basis of the denial of a something recognised internationally as a psychiatric disorder.

Am I alone in this view ?

lomapaseo
16th Mar 2013, 17:16
But it does sell to the readership

G-CPTN
16th Mar 2013, 18:02
Nolan is a self-serving 'shock jock' who delights in digging into slightly controversial subjects until he uncovers something, often by bullying his subjects (after which he displays smugness).

racedo
16th Mar 2013, 19:30
I disagree, racedo, if anything I would say that being abused as a child would make you even more against it because of the effects said abuse can have on the person, the psychological damage is well known.

That's how it is with the PYT sitting here, and she should know what the damage is.


No, I'm sorry, it's a convenient excuse. They KNOW it is wrong, they KNOW it was wrong when/if it happened to them and everyone knows that two wrongs do not make a right.



Not necessarily as has been proven by people recruiting child soldiers in wars in Africa where they will do what ever they asked to do initially and then later do even more depravity because they lack any kind of moral compass.

Similar studies done on people who went from being outside the torture room then in it and then being the torturers.


It is no "illness", it is merely adults preying on those too weak to stop it happening in the first case.


Dunno but would you call Control freakery, psychological bullying etc etc an illness ?


Oh, and in your example I would say that the person on Death Row (got a link to the whole thing, btw? Would be nice to see the whole story instead of just the few nuggets you have thrown at us) is guilty, he did know the difference between "right" and "wrong" as even a 9 year old knows that killing is "wrong".

I never followed up on the issue, parts described really turned my stomach, while not said I believe the girl could not be identified by family after what was done to her, dental and other stuff used. All were of US minority community he indirectly.

Friend wouldn't tell me what state it occurred in nor have I ever asked outcome as he prob told me more than he wanted and alcohol was involved after a pretty good dinner :E

I think both you and I would believe someone with mental age of 9 should know the difference.

But perp having been beaten and abused for 19 years by family, alcohol and drugs, abused since a child and never seeing anything different from that and seeing it as "normal" then I am not so sure.

Friend reckoned all wiring in this guys brain was fried and while guy chained when he saw him in interview room in prison he did have armed prison guard inside with him and one outside which he said was glad of.

Tankertrashnav
16th Mar 2013, 22:48
Am I alone in this view ?

Thankfully you are not, yet there are many who refuse to recognise that a large number of paedophiles are themselves extremely damaged people (not always men, don't forget) who were themselves subject to systematic abuse as children) That's not to say that society should not take very strict steps to ensure that they are kept secure and away from children, but I'm afraid the "string 'em up" and "hanging's too good for them" brigade are becoming more and more vociferous.

I was fortunate enough never to have been abused as a child (and yes I did attend a Jesuit prep school!) and I have no idea what goes on in the mind of anyone who can sexually abuse children, but I thank my lucky stars that that's the way I am. I won't go so far as to sympathise with paedophiles - I save that for their victims - but I want to see their disorder treated in a way more suited to the 21st century than the 17th.

Rail Engineer
16th Mar 2013, 22:56
Tankertrashnav

Quick question not related. You will understand others wont ;)

55/57/101/214 ?

G-CPTN
16th Mar 2013, 22:56
What about people who have been physically abused (frequently beaten) throughout childhood? - it's no surprise that some of them grow up to be physically abusive, and those who grow up in households where the man beats the woman probably become abusers or abused themselves.

I see some youngsters in town that receive abuse from their 'parents' and respond in like manner.

Tankertrashnav
16th Mar 2013, 23:16
Rail Engineer - 214 of course:ok: 55 and 57 were the enemy, and I was out before the days of 101.

Rail Engineer
17th Mar 2013, 00:30
I rather thought 57 was the leader and others followed ;) :ok: :ok:

Nice one old chap !

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2013, 06:20
Not necessarily as has been proven by people recruiting child soldiers in wars in Africa where they will do what ever they asked to do initially and then later do even more depravity because they lack any kind of moral compass.

And that makes paedophilia an illness? That makes people abused as children abuse other children? Again, ask my PYT what she thinks of that concept, for she is one who was systematically and repeatedly abused by her father. She don't have an attraction to kids.

And the brainwashing of child soldiers is not comparable to what said Bishop claimed. You have a strawman there.

Dunno but would you call Control freakery, psychological bullying etc etc an illness ?

What are you gibbering on about now? That question is not even worth dignifying with a proper answer as it is nonsense.

I never followed up on the issue, parts described really turned my stomach, while not said I believe the girl could not be identified by family after what was done to her, dental and other stuff used. All were of US minority community he indirectly.

Friend wouldn't tell me what state it occurred in nor have I ever asked outcome as he prob told me more than he wanted and alcohol was involved after a pretty good dinner

I think both you and I would believe someone with mental age of 9 should know the difference.

But perp having been beaten and abused for 19 years by family, alcohol and drugs, abused since a child and never seeing anything different from that and seeing it as "normal" then I am not so sure.

Friend reckoned all wiring in this guys brain was fried and while guy chained when he saw him in interview room in prison he did have armed prison guard inside with him and one outside which he said was glad of.

Then it's right that the perp gets a couple of shots in his arm, it's clear he is a danger to society and always will be. And since that means he will also be a clear danger to anyone in prison, that leaves one option. But you cannot excuse what he did, not by his alleged family history (I don't see any proof of it here, you see, so cannot verify anything), that is simply no excuse for what happened.

And there lies the problem with the touchy-feely world we have been forced to live in, everyone has an excuse for what they do, everyone blames someone else. "It's not my fault, guv" is the mantra of the day, and is used to absolve people of the most heinous crimes. And that is why the world is in the frikking state it is in now, and that is what has to change.



BTW. Do you think that the killers of Milly Dowler should have been treated leniently for something that didn't come out in their trial? Or should Ian Huntley have been let off because he was a loon? What about Roy Whiting and his previous jail term for abusing children? Should these people have been let off because of their "illness", or should they have been strung up for being the parasitic predatory abusers they truly were..........







PS. Thanks for moving things to here. Now it'll confuse the crap out of anyone wondering where my post came from......

racedo
17th Mar 2013, 16:27
And that makes paedophilia an illness? That makes people abused as children abuse other children? Again, ask my PYT what she thinks of that concept, for she is one who was systematically and repeatedly abused by her father. She don't have an attraction to kids.

And the brainwashing of child soldiers is not comparable to what said Bishop claimed. You have a strawman there.


Appears abuse when child and then abusing later is recognised as a mental illness.........something I was unaware of

Being subject to abuse how can you define what Normal is when you have not experienced ?

What are you gibbering on about now? That question is not even worth dignifying with a proper answer as it is nonsense.

Is control freakery and psychological bullying a mental illness in the individual doing it ?

I don't know but having met a few Control freaks who could only ever be right and anything they did was right and anybody who challenged them they sought to destroy one wonders whether it is.

Then it's right that the perp gets a couple of shots in his arm, it's clear he is a danger to society and always will be. And since that means he will also be a clear danger to anyone in prison, that leaves one option. But you cannot excuse what he did, not by his alleged family history (I don't see any proof of it here, you see, so cannot verify anything), that is simply no excuse for what happened.

And there lies the problem with the touchy-feely world we have been forced to live in, everyone has an excuse for what they do, everyone blames someone else. "It's not my fault, guv" is the mantra of the day, and is used to absolve people of the most heinous crimes. And that is why the world is in the frikking state it is in now, and that is what has to change.

BTW. Do you think that the killers of Milly Dowler should have been treated leniently for something that didn't come out in their trial? Or should Ian Huntley have been let off because he was a loon? What about Roy Whiting and his previous jail term for abusing children? Should these people have been let off because of their "illness", or should they have been strung up for being the parasitic predatory abusers they truly were..........


Nobody excusing what he did (I would have voted guilty on a jury) BUT question friend asking was
Should this person be executed because of the head injuries he suffered from birth in beatings and abuse. ?

Clearly many people would say No but given society now recognises PTSD as an illness then how can it then say that someone beaten through out their life cannot suffer from it .

I indicated friend was clear he didn't want the person out on the streets as even perp stated he didn't believe he would not do it again. Life imprisonment meaning life was facing him.

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2013, 16:43
Appears abuse when child and then abusing later is recognised as a mental illness.........something I was unaware of

Again, another excuse to try and "pass the buck". A bit like the "Pete Townsend Defence" after he claimed he had so much kiddy porn on his computer because he was abused as a child. Nobody could confirm his story, however, and that meant he was effectively let off on what could have been a fabrication to get sympathy. But, hey, it's easier to pass the buck and "blame society/parents/family/the internet/Bush/etc" to try and get off with being someone with an unhealthy interest in those unable to defend themselves, as well as blaming others who would be unable to defend themselves.

Being subject to abuse how can you define what Normal is when you have not experienced ?

Were you ever been sexually abused as a child? If not, how would YOU know what anyone who was abused thinks of as "normal"? And do explain why not all victims of abuse are abusers, and why not all abusers were abused as children. After all, never heard a peep about Paul Gadd or Jonathan King being abused when a child, and look how they turned out.


Is control freakery and psychological bullying a mental illness in the individual doing it ?

I don't know but having met a few Control freaks who could only ever be right and anything they did was right and anybody who challenged them they sought to destroy one wonders whether it is.

Again, what does that gibbering have to do with making excuses for paedophilia.

Nobody excusing what he did (I would have voted guilty on a jury) BUT question friend asking was
Should this person be executed because of the head injuries he suffered from birth in beatings and abuse. ?

Clearly many people would say No but given society now recognises PTSD as an illness then how can it then say that someone beaten through out their life cannot suffer from it .

I indicated friend was clear he didn't want the person out on the streets as even perp stated he didn't believe he would not do it again. Life imprisonment meaning life was facing him.

So justify spending hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars keeping him alive. PROVE that he was "beaten around the head" and that caused his disorder. PROVE that his alleged PTSD made him do it (I know others with PTSD, they don't have urges like that). And why not try to remember where it all happened so we can see what the whole sorry tale was and make our own minds up over whether execution is justified as, simply, your anecdotes from an alcohol-fuelled evening are hardly doing anything to say that said killer is actually fit for anything apart from a couple of hypos in his arms as he can never be rehabilitated, is likely to cause injury to others in prison, etc.

owen meaney
4th Apr 2013, 01:00
Agree with you Hellsbrink.
I was raised by an alchoholic father, mother died when I was about 6 years old. His disciplinary methods could only be described as cruel and bizzare.
At no time have I felt the need to beat another person, in fact it has caused me to be a pacifist.

500N
4th Apr 2013, 01:09
Some very interesting discussion being had in the media
over here regarding our Royal Commission.

I think the Catholic Church - and others - are going to
get crucified and very tarnished by the end of the process
which is good IMHO.

I also hope Cardinal Pell gets tarnished by the fall out,
about time that smirk on his face was smacked off.

owen meaney
4th Apr 2013, 01:32
I think the Catholic Church - and others - are going to
get crucified and
very tarnished by the end of the process
which is good IMHO.
500N, I think it is ONLY the Catholic church that they are after.
All the rest is fooffle dust.

500N
4th Apr 2013, 01:38
Owen

Maybe so - and good - I'll have to do some more reading / research.

If it is, it is because of what the Catholic Churches actions
in the past, cover ups, lying, shifting people about and IMHO
how Pell handled things in his smug way a over the last few
years. Which I think had a lot to do with it because he was
so wishy washy and evasive when answring questions,
people realised a RC was the only way they would get
answers.

I hope the Catholic Church has to cough up some big
$$$$$ as compensation as well.