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dragon man
5th Mar 2013, 21:50
Rumour has it that soon to be announced is the purchase of 4 747-400 freighters and the crew to be newly employed pilots in Australia while there own crew sit around doing nothjing on assigned leave.

Keg
5th Mar 2013, 21:56
I'd be surprised if they bothered to buy them- unless they've discovered that Atlas is gouging them.

When QF bought the 767 freighters they were quite happy to have 767 crews on assigned leave and for others to be employed and trained to fly them on lesser conditions. Why would the 744 be any different.

The Bungeyed Bandit
5th Mar 2013, 22:43
Apparently the Atlas contract finishes soon and the QF purchasing rep has been looking/negotiating the purchase of 3 744ER freighters that are sitting in the desert in the US, one very new and the other 2 about 5 to 6 years old.

As to who will crew or maintain them is another thing.

Don't forget, there's no money in freight.

Mstr Caution
6th Mar 2013, 00:27
Goodbye Atlas.

Hello QF freight (with dedicated flight crews)

cxorcist
6th Mar 2013, 01:25
We've been here before at CX. Don't let it happen. It has cost us dearly over the years and continues to adversely affect the pilots to this day.

Keg
6th Mar 2013, 02:15
As to who will crew or maintain them is another thing.


I'd be stunned if mainline pilots were used. They've already demonstrated that they don't mind having pilots sitting on assigned leave whilst they employ others to crew aeroplanes of the same type- they are for a 'separate entity after all :rolleyes: :* - so I can't see them doing it now.

There is one caveat on that though. If someone crunches the numbers and works out that redundancy payouts is going to cost them more than the savings they make by crewing them with cheaper new hires (or promoting QF Freight pilots) then we may see some action. I'd still be stunned though. It would show the first lot of forward thinking from this mob for more than half a decade.

Capt Claret
6th Mar 2013, 02:42
Don't think their own crew will be sitting around doing nothing for too long.

About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases - Qantas Group fleet update (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/feb-2013/5503/global/en)

Is it possible that ex 400 drivers might be redeployed onto the 800? :cool:

Keg
6th Mar 2013, 02:50
Hey Clarrie. What that doesn't show up very clearly though is that whilst we may be getting another 11 A330s and 5 737s, we're also getting rid of 20ish 767s (admittedly only doing the flying of about 15 at the moment) and a bunch of 737-400s. We're also decreasing the 744 fleet over the next few years as well.

We've got 200+ on LWOP and are still overstocked by the tune of 50-80 according to the rumours and the full ramifications of the FWA ruling haven't yet been put through the system to determine whether we can crew the current flying with less crew.

So a few freighters would be brilliant to help absorb some of those excess crew but I just can't see it happening based on past behaviour.

neville_nobody
6th Mar 2013, 03:39
If they are a 'separate entity' CASA would have to ensure they get enough people with high time on type as that is what they have forced, Skywest, Tiger and Virgin all to do. At Skywest this resulted in a high number of foreigners moving here and get sponsored as result.

They won't be able to just start a new AOC and hire guys off the street with just a bit of heavy jet time.

The 'logical' step would be to round up a bunch of their own drivers who are rated and proficient and drop them in.

What will probably happen is fire a bunch of guys then advertise for 744 positions and realise they most of the rated drivers are in QF. They will then go to the government and apply for 457 visa because they can't find anyone to work for them

avconnection
6th Mar 2013, 05:27
QF or AAE?

Shark Patrol
6th Mar 2013, 07:30
Phhhhtt!!

I'll believe it when I see it!

Normasars
6th Mar 2013, 09:13
Neville,

CASA won't give a fat rats one mate; IT'S FREIGHT. There are no pax, nobody cares!!!


Anyway, QANTASFREIGHT employs NO mainline crews now, so why change?

empire4
6th Mar 2013, 11:32
a freighter pilot getting $300K + hahaha, that'll be the day....... Under the EBA they need a flight attendant too. hahaha

Tankengine
6th Mar 2013, 15:34
Empire, you re full of it.
I have done numerous ferries with no F/As, the freighter flying would be the same.:)

If you aim for mediocrity You will achieve it for sure!:E

DeltaT
6th Mar 2013, 19:28
If they are a 'separate entity' CASA would have to ensure they get enough people with high time on type as that is what they have forced, Skywest, Tiger and Virgin all to do.

CASA has not forced Tiger to get guys with more time on type or laid down any such requirement. If you do not believe me make a phone call to the CASA inspector in Melbourne.

Bankstown
6th Mar 2013, 20:40
Possibly EFA according to this:
Qantas mulls buying 747 freighters (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-mulls-buying-747-freighters-20130306-2flng.html)

carbonneutral
6th Mar 2013, 20:59
Pretty standard Qantas ploy. Contract up for renewal, theaten to outsource (or insource in this case), squeeze a better price out of the contract then pretend it never happened. The chances this is planted leak are a lot higher than an in house, mainline jumbo freight operation...

Mstr Caution
6th Mar 2013, 21:18
Carbon neutral.

There were rumours going around mid to late last year DR & The boys at EFA were putting together a business case for in house 744 freighters. The rumour at the time was an increased focus on Asia & ditching Atlas.

maggot
6th Mar 2013, 21:53
with the CP of EFA, I'd believe it! :suspect:

freightdawg747
6th Mar 2013, 22:51
Does Qantas currently fly any cargo with their own planes?

4 Holer
6th Mar 2013, 23:23
Here is the story for you folks down South. There are two-400F in VictorvilleCA ex Great Wall one was recently painted in Southern Air colors last year.
Qantas went to Southern and used Southern to leaver Atlas. Southern painted the plane signed MOU with leasing company who did C check.Qantas dumped Southern and pushed Atlas $ down for a short extension.
Last week the two -400F one in great wall colors and one in Southern colors were pulled unto the Hangar at Victorville for inspection by Qantas ?
Do some googling you will see the-400F parked last year near 5x Qantas RR powered 744 pax. Hope this helps.

Ken Borough
7th Mar 2013, 00:05
Does Qantas currently fly any cargo with their own planes?
e

That's like asking if the Pope is a Catholic!

The Professor
7th Mar 2013, 00:42
Very few mainline western pax carriers operate their own cargo planes in-sourced.

The cost structure is generally too prohibitive.

hotnhigh
7th Mar 2013, 00:59
Hey Professor, what do cx, and ek do? Just wondering.
Spot the difference......

Cathay Pacific orders 3 Boeing 747-8 cargo planes - Channel NewsAsia (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/1257880/1/.html)

Night Watch
7th Mar 2013, 02:46
The Professor

No to mention Korean, Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines....

The list goes on

The Professor
7th Mar 2013, 02:49
Hotnhigh,

My comment included the phrase “very few”. I did not wish to imply that there are NO mainline carriers operating heavy cargo aircraft.

I also included the phrase “western”. Perhaps you are unaware that neither EK nor CX belong to western countries.

Furthermore, are you aware that EK do not operate any cargo aircraft and that most cargo carried by CX is carried by Cathay Pacific Cargo, a separate company?

They are not examples of airlines in-sourcing the carriage of cargo.

The Professor
7th Mar 2013, 02:57
“No to mention Korean, Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines....”

All three of these airlines have outsourced the carriage of cargo to separate business units and in many cases these business units utilize pilots on separate contracts.

They do not support your argument that the list “goes on”.

And of course, Singapore and Korea are not western!

I suggest you do some better research into the industry in which you apparently work!

hotnhigh
7th Mar 2013, 03:02
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/galleries/images/32482/500x400/boeing-777f-of-emirates-sky-cargo.bmp

Furthermore, are you aware that EK do not operate any cargo aircraft

:ugh:

The Professor
7th Mar 2013, 03:05
hotnhigh,

Wow, a great picture. Very clean and tidy. And new too.

And it is operated by a company called "Emirates Sky Cargo".

It even has it written on the side!!!!!

It is a wholly owned subsidiary of EK and operates as a "separate entity" to quote their own website.

This by definition is out sourcing

B-HKD
7th Mar 2013, 04:24
hotnhigh,

Wow, a great picture. Very clean and tidy. And new too.

And it is operated by a company called "Emirates Sky Cargo".

It even has it written on the side!!!!!

It is a wholly owned subsidiary of EK and operates as a "separate entity" to quote their own website.

This by definition is out sourcing

Fact is the crews fly both pax and cargo on the same terms...

hotnhigh
7th Mar 2013, 04:36
But operated by the same group of pilots that fly the passenger varieties.
Which of course will be impossible in qf as it doesn't fit the business model. Just ask the smartest guys in the room. I'm sure a new 'negotiated package' will be thrown out there. What a shame the 457 scheme is getting pretty close to running its course.
Yep research, its a wonderful thing.
:D:ok:

The Professor
7th Mar 2013, 05:07
“Fact is the crews fly both pax and cargo on the same terms...”

Yes, indeed, they do. In the EK case, you are correct.

I think if you re read my comments you will notice that I did not make a claim contrary to this.

I simply stated that the carriage of cargo at these airlines has been outsourced. Some carriers such as Emirates Sky Cargo and Korean Air Cargo choose to utilize crew from their respective parent company. But nonetheless, they are operated by a separate entity with different overheads and business models.

There is a reason they do this.

“But operated by the same group of pilots that fly the passenger varieties.”

Yes, in the case of Emirates. But back to my original point. How many WESTERN airlines operate and crew cargo aircraft in house? Australia, Canada, USA, UK, Europe?

Why is that?

Zapatas Blood
7th Mar 2013, 05:40
Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines....

LH - no cargo planes

SQ - no cargo planes

Visual Procedures
7th Mar 2013, 05:41
Does Qantas currently fly any cargo with their own planes?

Under the EBA they need a flight attendant too.

I have done numerous ferries with no F/As, the freighter flying would be the same.

Mid 2000's Qantas used to operate a pax configured 767 SYD-AKL-CHC-SYD with only freight on board. Plus the two pilots of course.. And a flight attendant :E

Night Watch
7th Mar 2013, 07:21
The Professor

Since I work for CX.... I think I might know a bit about the company and industry that you so eloquently put....

I suggest you do some better research into the industry in which you apparently work!

most cargo carried by CX is carried by Cathay Pacific Cargo, a separate company

It is not a separate company.... It is a division within Cathay Pacific Airways. It is the largest cargo division of any passenger airline in the world and it operates very successfully with mostly western crews (who fly pax AND the freighter), with a western Director of Cargo, in a former British colony.

Try keeping it civil next time and I wont have to take you back to school... Mr Professor

Metro man
7th Mar 2013, 07:44
Cargo flying is a lot easier to outsource. As long as it gets there on time in one piece the customer doesn't care who flew it or on what terms, price is the main factor.

Mainline pilots generally won't care about not flying the worn out freighters, as long as they get to keep the shiny new passenger planes.

Management find it a lot easier to subcontract cargo flying out. If they bought in another operator on passenger routes there would be regulatory issues, instant union opposition and passenger complaints about not getting what they paid for.

A couple of cargo planes chartered in, just for the peak season of course, won't bring much opposition and can easily become more in number and permanent.

StallBoy
7th Mar 2013, 07:44
I could be very wrong but I thought that only QANTAS operates 747ER's. I have flown on the six of them at different times, incredible flights to Buenos Aires and the US.:hmm:

DirectAnywhere
7th Mar 2013, 08:17
You're wrong Stallie - although I'll admit I thought the same.

Google it and check the wiki. There is an ER-F variant.

Fuel-Off
7th Mar 2013, 08:58
Zapatas Blood said


Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines....

LH - no cargo planes

SQ - no cargo planes

Each have their own cargo arm. LH have Lufthansa Cargo operating a sizeable fleet of MD-11Fs and SQ with Singapore Airlines Cargo with their own 744Fs. I know SQ operate their cargo arm as a completely different entity with their own crews. Thai Cargo do the same thing as do BA with BA World Cargo.

Not too sure about LH but by going with the worldwide trend I would say it would be separate crews with separate terms and conditions. I certainly don't condone what management do...still sucks :suspect:

Fuel-Off :ok:

Stalins ugly Brother
7th Mar 2013, 09:04
This is just our management playing funny buggers to put pressure on Atlas to keep any cost increases negligible in the next contract agreement.

IF there was any substance in this they would just convert the 400s we have before parking them in the desert and lease them to Qantas freight as a dry lease.

They probably would lease them for a dollar per aircraft like the 330s to Jetstar so the shortfall in leasing charges and costs can be written off as a lost to the longhaul operation.

Now that wouldn't be a surprise :ugh:

angryrat
7th Mar 2013, 09:18
By reading this thread it sounds like The Professor has something to gain here? Did you write an EFA business proposal that states on pages 1-11 of an 11 page document that QF mainline crew will not under any circumstances crew the freighters :E

DirectAnywhere
7th Mar 2013, 11:01
Don't worry - the aircraft will all be crewed by ex Cathay guys anyway.

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/509540-australia-base-744f-non-cx.html#post7730331

(Until the 1989 discussion gets that thread - and now probably this one - shut down).

Captain Dart
8th Mar 2013, 00:28
There are persistent rumours in Cathay Pacific that its Sydney -400 freighter crew base is to close.

Maybe the boys will now only have just have to change uniforms rather than return to Hong Kong.

The Professor
8th Mar 2013, 15:19
"It is not a separate company"

CX refer to CX Cargo as a subsidiary or a separate business. It is operated independently with different accounting, tax write offs and business model to its parent.

If CX Cargo, SQ Cargo, Emirates Sky Cargo and MOST other cargo divisions around the world were deemed to be profitable within the structure of the parent company, then they would be operated that way.

But they are not.

The point being, QF mainline will NEVER operate cargo aircraft within its mainline cost structure.

Keg
8th Mar 2013, 20:48
So using your logic QF domestic and QF international are also separate businesses. Riiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt. :ugh:

SMOC
8th Mar 2013, 23:30
From its origins as a small regional freight operator established in 1946, Cathay Pacific Airways has grown to become one of the world’s leading international air cargo carriers. Cathay Pacific’s cargo business currently accounts for around 30% of its annual revenues, and has helped to build Hong Kong into the world’s busiest air cargo hub. All of Cathay Pacific’s cargo operations are grouped under its Cathay Pacific Cargo unit.*

Sounds like it's all part Cathay Pacific airways and is merely a unit of the company as stated.

AnQrKa
9th Mar 2013, 00:42
wow you guys really have a grasp for the point being missed.

Can anyone name a single carrier from the west that operates cargo aircraft.

Everyone is focused on CX WHICH IS NOT EVEN WESTERN and yet the reality is VERY FEW airlines (I cant think of one) in the west operate cargo planes.

Qantas would be the first as far as I can tell.

thats the point I think is trying to be made!!!!!!!!!!

Tankengine
9th Mar 2013, 00:55
Qantas is western?:}
I think CX is just as western.
Lufthansa has cargo, as do other "western" airlines.:hmm:
You guys seem to think we are "western":confused:
European airlines do less cargo because they have TRAINS!:ugh:

ASY68
9th Mar 2013, 05:28
BA world cargo? KLM cargo?

nitpicker330
9th Mar 2013, 05:36
Last I looked BA World Cargo's 74 Freighters were leased. The crews are not BA employees. :cool:

SOPS
9th Mar 2013, 05:44
I was parked next to a BA 748 freighter the other day, and it said 'Operated by Global Logistics',or something like that, on the side.

AnQrKa
9th Mar 2013, 19:35
"I think CX is just as western."

It may look sort of western and sound like it on the radio but CX accounting is as murky and dishonest as the next hong kong business.

"Lufthansa has cargo, as do other "western" airlines"

LH is outsourced!!!!! As is BA!!!!

Atlas Shrugged
11th Mar 2013, 00:45
:suspect:







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