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Carbon Bootprint
5th Mar 2013, 20:57
I can't vouch for the veracity, but the telly here in AMS is reporting that Hugo Chavez, president of Venezuela has died.

There has obviously been a bit of a deathwatch in progress since the reports that his last surgery had resulted in some complications and a worsening of his condition. (Of course, there are now claims he was poisoned, and American diplomats have been expelled for attempting to destabilise the country.)

Quite a perilous time for a once-wonderful country that I relished in many many years ago before the "Bolivarian revolution." Like the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times.

VZ once had a burgeoning middle class and a booming economy, a robust oil industry and thriving private enterprise. All of that is pretty much gone, now the one who led them down the path that removed those elements is gone as well.

My best wishes for my Venezuelan friends but given the way the world seems to be working these days I have to couch that with a deep concern that things will only get worse before better any time soon.

Mike X
5th Mar 2013, 21:02
Venezuela's Hugo Chavez dies from cancer: VP | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/05/us-venezuela-chavez-idUSBRE92405420130305)

Seems like it.

Dushan
5th Mar 2013, 21:02
CTV reporting now as well. I guess that Cuban healthcare isn't as good as they claim.

Matari
5th Mar 2013, 21:10
I'm sure it is impolite to smile ever so discretely.

Carbon Bootprint, you hit the nail on the head. Here's to the Venezuelan people, who will have some difficult times ahead. The Chavistas will try to retain power in the only way that committed socialists know...by sheer force.

Once the bright and talented expat Venezuelans return, the country can quickly regain its former status. May that happen quickly, and peacefully.

Lonewolf_50
5th Mar 2013, 21:18
(Of course, there are now claims he was poisoned, and American diplomats have been expelled for attempting to destabilise the country).

If true, let the officialdom of Venezuela all rot in hell. If those feckwits can't figure out the difference between someone dying after cancer treatment and someone being poisoned, they are either too stupid to keep around, or too big of a liar to ever do business with.

Matari, not a chance in hell of expats coming home to fix all this. Those who stayed home are the ones who strengthened their local power and influence base. Any change for the better is gonna take quite a bit of time.

Elections: you people in Venezuela got, and will get, the government you deserve, just as we do, once the polling booth closes.

Buena Suerte

ShyTorque
5th Mar 2013, 21:39
I guess that Cuban healthcare isn't as good as they claim.

Proof that prayer does work?

500N
5th Mar 2013, 21:42
No loss to the world.

Hopefully if VZ can get back on it's feet it will drag
Argentina with it so they stop having to mutually crow
about the Malvinas to distract the population.

Slasher
5th Mar 2013, 21:46
Good. One less ranting socialist pr!ck to put up with.

Next!

Dushan
5th Mar 2013, 21:47
Proof that prayer does work?

I guess it does, if you're praying to get rid of one more dictator.

ShyTorque
5th Mar 2013, 21:54
So you got the gist..... :p

pigboat
5th Mar 2013, 22:32
Boo hoo hoo

Edited to add a seond hoo.

Dushan
5th Mar 2013, 22:41
Stand by for words of wisdom from Joe Biden as he goes to the funeral.

Sunray Minor
5th Mar 2013, 22:52
Four or five responses here showing PPRUNE at its worst and most crass.

brickhistory
5th Mar 2013, 22:58
Then you should love this one:



AMF...

Dushan
5th Mar 2013, 23:20
And others showing their true socialist colors.

Matari
5th Mar 2013, 23:43
PPruNe at its worst? C'mon Sunray, I've seen worse in the UK thread about yet-to-be deceased politicians. No sign of crocodile tears from you there, eh?

sisemen
5th Mar 2013, 23:48
Four or five responses here showing PPRuNe at its worst and most crass.

Thereby proving the point. :hmm:

Caboclo
6th Mar 2013, 01:07
Sean Penn is far more eloquent in his praise of his BFF Hugo than Biden could ever be.
"Today the people of the United States lost a friend it never knew it had. And poor people around the world lost a champion."

Hugo Chavez Dead: Sean Penn, Oliver Stone Comment (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hugo-chavez-dead-sean-penn-426205)

Buster Hyman
6th Mar 2013, 01:16
His successor is claiming he was "infected" with Cancer by his enemies...read "the west". :rolleyes:

pigboat
6th Mar 2013, 01:47
"Today the people of the United States lost a friend it never knew it had.
Then he sure had me fooled, by golly.

421dog
6th Mar 2013, 01:47
Didn't much care for him myself, but may God have mercy on his soul.

sisemen
6th Mar 2013, 01:53
KJ2Oi3EQkr4

Nuff said!

lomapaseo
6th Mar 2013, 03:13
Four or five responses here showing PPRUNE at its worst and most crass.

it's like the pope thread.

All that really counts is the sucessor

unless of course anybody on this forum considered him part of their immediate family.

SASless
6th Mar 2013, 03:21
Upon hearing the news....I thought a short farewell was in order.....AMF!:ok:

obgraham
6th Mar 2013, 03:24
His daughters looked like nice young ladies.
(That's all I can think of positive to say about him.)

con-pilot
6th Mar 2013, 03:49
His daughters looked like nice young ladies.


But at least they'll be well off money wise.

Analyst estimates Chávez (http://newsfromvenezuela.tumblr.com/post/867542155/analyst-estimates-chavezs-family-fortune-at-around-2)

The Chavez family is estimated to be worth around two billion ($2,000,000,000.00) USD.

Solid Rust Twotter
6th Mar 2013, 04:17
Dang! This socialist great leader kick seems to be a pretty good money spinner. Our own home grown advocates of the poor and oppressed are also rolling in it.

500N
6th Mar 2013, 04:22
I wonder how much of that was stolen ?

Not bad for a Socialist.


Daughters - :O

Krystal n chips
6th Mar 2013, 04:54
" I've seen worse in the UK thread about yet-to-be deceased politicians"

I would suggest the term definitive would be more applicable in one particular case.

sitigeltfel
6th Mar 2013, 06:02
"A man is known by the company he keeps."

Some of the most effusive condolences are coming from the UK politicians, Ken Livingstone and George Galloway. Nuff said!

There are estimates that Chavez plundered more than $2bn from the coffers of Venezuela, for him and his family.
Yes, by any standards the man was living up to all that is expected of Socialists. But the poor fools they preside over never see it.

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 06:22
Certainly a colourful and charismatic character. As with so many 'socialists' of course, a total hypocrite and thief who accumulated massive personal wealth at the expense of his citizens.

I will remember him for taking the podium at a UN meeting after Bush and saying : "The devil came here yesterday and it smells of sulfur still today."

Chavez accused Bush of having spoken "as if he owned the world" and said a psychiatrist could be called to analyze the statement.


And this :

dFo3HvyYFmY

I know next to nothing about Venezuelan politics but I only hope he will be replaced by someone who will bring about better times for the nation. I was there a few years ago for a couple of days and was shocked at the disparity between the lifestyles of the rich and the average person, and at the poverty and the hardship visible on the streets of Caracas.

A lot of people say Venezuelan women are the most beautiful on the planet, not a statement I would agree with, but there are certainly a lot of very hot looking girls there!

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 07:18
AMF! Perhaps his rabid supporters will give a 21 gun salute.. in a shooting circle.

Andy_S
6th Mar 2013, 07:37
"A man is known by the company he keeps."

Indeed. And this was a man who was quite happy to rub shoulders with Iran and Gaddafi’s Libya.

For all his rhetoric, he was more interested in exporting his own brand of revolutionary socialism and strutting the world stage than permanently improving the lot of the Venezuelan poor.

I don’t know if anyone else saw BBC’s Breakfast Time programme this morning. They interviewed an ‘expert’ on Venezuelan politics, whose admiration for Hugo Chavez was almost embarrassing. Plenty of talk of his ‘magnetism’, his positive legacy and how he wasn’t really anti-American at all. Nothing about his virtual elimination of a free press, suppression of any political opposition or amassing of a personal fortune. Where was the objectivity?

sitigeltfel
6th Mar 2013, 07:52
From the BBC...

That habit of impromptu policymaking was integral to Mr Chavez's style, right from the start of his 14 years in power.
Time and again, the president would make major decisions on an ad hoc basis, often during the course of his rambling and unscripted weekly TV broadcast to the nation, known as Alo Presidente.
He was particularly prone to quick-fix solutions in economic policy, resorting to regular currency devaluations, expropriations of private firms and inflation-busting public-sector pay rises rather than tackling the economy's underlying structural problems.
This fire-fighting approach continued even as Mr Chavez lingered on his Cuban sickbed, with Vice-President Nicolas Maduro implementing a 32% devaluation of the bolivar in February.
As a result, Mr Chavez bequeaths a nation beset by crumbling infrastructure, unsustainable public spending and underperforming industry.
Thanks to his social programmes, poorer Venezuelans have certainly benefited from the country's oil wealth more than they did under what he called the rotten elites that used to be in charge.
But there are strong suspicions that much money has been wasted - not just through corruption, but also sheer incompetence.
Ignoring long term stability in pursuit of short term popularity. It has been done before and we shall see it again.

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 07:57
I don’t know if anyone else saw BBC’s Breakfast Time programme this morning................ Where was the objectivity?

BBC .......... objectivity from the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation? Thanks for the laugh, just snorted tea over my keyboard.

KAG
6th Mar 2013, 08:01
I am not an expert in south american politic (and not an expert in politic at all anyway) so forgive me if I say something completely wrong: was he this kind of leader that only death would make him quit his position?
Cancer, the new democratic tool?

Again, I know nothing about the Venezuelan political system, maybe he was due to quit his position next month and would have accepted it, what do I know. That's only a feeling I have, and feelings can easily be biaised.

unstable load
6th Mar 2013, 08:19
I spent time in Venezuela, just as the shortages were starting to hit the shelves in shops, and things like butter, powdered milk, etc were being limited per customer per day.
An issue that I had was that if you made a purchase for chewing gum or something equally inane, you had to give your national ID number to the teller and it appeared on the receipt. It was sometimes difficult as a Gringo to get the more thick headed to understand that I never had a "cedular" as it is known and I eventually made up a number that was part passport number, part telephone number that worked.;)

There will be lots of hangovers in Ven tomorrow, both from celebrations and mourning.:ok::{

tony draper
6th Mar 2013, 08:36
I think his henchmen have been doing a El Cid with him and he's been dead for two months,they are going to need a good make up job if he is to lie in state for another month.

Andy_S
6th Mar 2013, 09:34
was he this kind of leader that only death would make him quit his position?

Unless he tired of governing, I think this is true. He had already amended the Venezuelan constitution to allow him to serve additional terms as president, and anyone who stood against him in an election always seemed to be routinely harassed and intimidated. I recall that one opposition figure was assassinated in mysterious circumstances a few years ago. Venezuela may notionally be a democracy, but Chavez had such absolute control over the country’s institutions that he was effectively a dictator with a range of methods available to obstruct opponents, rig elections and gerrymander the constitution. I’ve no doubt at all that a way would have been found to sideline or eliminate anyone who posed a serious threat to him in an election.

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 09:39
Unless he tired of governing, I think this is true. He had already amended the Venezuelan constitution to allow him to serve additional terms as president, and anyone who stood against him in an election always seemed to be routinely harassed and intimidated. I recall that one opposition figure was assassinated in mysterious circumstances a few years ago. Venezuela may notionally be a democracy, but Chavez had such absolute control over the country’s institutions that he was effectively a dictator with a range of methods available to obstruct opponents, rig elections and gerrymander the constitution. I’ve no doubt at all that a way would have been found to sideline or eliminate anyone who posed a serious threat to him in an election.

Change Venezuelan to Zimbabwean, and change Chavez to Mugabe, and you have exactly the same situation.

radeng
6th Mar 2013, 10:12
Except Zimbabwe hasn't got oil and sadly, Mugabe isn't dead.

Fareastdriver
6th Mar 2013, 10:14
If he hadn't been so anti-US and had gone to an American hospital for treatment he would probably be still alive today.

tony draper
6th Mar 2013, 10:19
Or deader.:rolleyes:

Lon More
6th Mar 2013, 10:21
Any black helicopters round your way today, FSL?

Sunray Minor
6th Mar 2013, 10:33
Capetonian, that all sounds well and good, but how was Chavez any worse than the near dictators that preceded him, but who enjoyed love and loyalty of the US?

Fact is he wasn't. The big difference was he extended a finger to the US and focussed on the majority of Venezuelan's at the expense of the minority. You may want to call that populism, others would call it democracy and fairness. For that, the right wing of course vilifies him. I think he'd take a lot of joy in seeing the foaming at the mouth rhetoric coming from here.

The US almost certainly had involvement in a coup attempt to oust him (the US has form there when it comes to Latin America), Donald Rumsfeld publicly compared him to Adolf Hitler, not to mention Pat Robertson calling for his assassination. Is it any surprise the US populace holds such a distorted viewpoint on the man?

As for changing the constitution to allow consecutive terms...so what? Most nations permit consecutive terms and in 1999 88% of the population voted in favour of a new constitution. Elections are certainly not squeaky clean but are considered by impartial observers to be free and fair. Ironic that far less free and fair elections in Colombia and elsewhere barely raise a a squeal from those on here, but the slightest sign of anything being less than perfect by Chavez and the howls begin. He was certainly no saint but in the context of Latin America and the region's politics he was par for the course and an improvement on those before him.

Chavez's crime was to prove that nationalising oil could bring massive benefits to the majority and a rejection of neoliberal policies.

As for shortages, funny how some get hot under the collar about them. We can all agree shortages aren't great but prior to his coming to power, shortages weren't an inconvenience for the majority of the population. They were life threatening.

Anyway, let the figures speak for themselves.

Before Chavez (1999) and after Chavez figures (2009-11)

Per Capital GDP: US$4,105, US$10,810
Unemployment: 14.5%, 7.6%
Infant mortality rate, per 1,000: 20%, 13%
Household extreme poverty: 19.3%, 7%
Population extreme poverty: 23.4%, 8.5%
Oil exports up from 14.4 billion to 60 billion $
Minimum wage: < US$00/month, ~US$700 month

Compare that to any recent US politician, Republican or otherwise.

...yep, I can quite understand why those on here are happy to see him dead. Perhaps we can now return to having a US stooge running the show, and one who siphons off the country's wealth to its northern neighbour...the way it should be, eh?

Certainly time for a change - 14 years is long enough in power. But wishing him dead, or wanting to turn back the clock on his reforms? No thanks.

KAG
6th Mar 2013, 10:37
Andy S: He had already amended the Venezuelan constitution to allow him to serve additional terms as president And why I am not even surprised?

Sunray Minor: what you say is true (at least your numbers) however it is due to the sharp increase of the oil baril price during the period you mention (1999-2011): Venezuela is an oil dependant economy, that's the only point the numbers are proving.

500N
6th Mar 2013, 10:39
Sunray

"Before Chavez (1999) and after Chavez figures (2009-11)

Per Capital GDP: US$4,105, US$10,810
Unemployment: 14.5%, 7.6%
Infant mortality rate, per 1,000: 20%, 13%
Household extreme poverty: 19.3%, 7%
Population extreme poverty: 23.4%, 8.5%
Oil exports up from 14.4 billion to 60 billion $
Minimum wage: < US$00/month, ~US$700 month"


Where did those figures come from ?

Link please to the Source ?

If he did that in 2 years, from 2009 - 2011,
seems like he should run a few other countries.

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 10:43
Sunray Minor:
When Chavez came to power the oil price was below €20/barrel. It is now around 6 times that figure.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 11:04
The big difference was he extended a finger to the US and focussed on the majority of Venezuelan's at the expense of the minority. You may want to call that populism, others would call it democracy and fairness.
https://www.whatsnextvenezuela.com/media-kit/timeline-of-expropriations/

October 2012:

An analysis by the Venezuelan Confederation of Industries (Conindustria) reveals that from 2002 to 2012 the Chávez government has taken over 1168 foreign and domestic companies.

June 2012:

Chávez secures a loan from an off-budget fund to finance the expropriation of Siderurgica del Turbio SA, a steel products company.

March 2012:

Chávez threatens to expropriate banks that support his political opposition, stating that, “it wouldn’t be bad at all to issue a decree and bring those firms under state control.”

The Venezuelan Central Bank reports that public and private investment in the Venezuelan economy is 10.3 percent below the 2008 level. Experts suggest that expropriations and other Chávez economic policies are to blame.

January 2012:

Chávez threatens to expropriate banks that refuse to finance agricultural projects promoted by his government.

Congresswoman and presidential pre-candidate for the Venezuelan opposition primaries, María Corina Machado, stood up in the middle of on one of Chávez’ notoriously long winded speeches, in defense of Venezuela’s private property, stating that “expropriation is robbery”.

Chávez government announces plans to leave the World Bank’s international arbitration body potentially affecting around 20 companies with unsettle led disputes and putting billions of dollars of foreign investment at risk.

December 2011:

Chávez government expropriates 16,479,300 square meters of land in different statesaround the country under the banner of the Housing Emergency Law.

Chávez orders the creation of the Superior Strategic Council for Expropriations, a 15-member council tasked with assisting and facilitating the government’s expropriation policies.

Venezuelan government expropriates the old headquarters of the Venezuelan newspaper, El Nacional.

Between 2007 and 2011, only 2.2 percent of the total amount paid by the Venezuelan government to expropriated companies went to domestic companies.

November 2011:

Chávez announces that “the plan for the elimination of private property has only begun.”

Venezuelan government takes control of “Los Guaiqueríes de Margarita,” a basketball team formerly owned by expropriated ferry company Conferry.

Chávez orders the takeover of 1,429,71 square meters of land from a Caracas car dealership.

Chávez threatens to expropriate any bank that fails to provide Venezuelans with long term mortgage credits.

President Chávez announces “rescue” of 580 hectares in the Quíbor Valley in the state of Lara, where 66 percent of the nation’s onions, 36 percent of peppers, and 16 percent of tomatoes are grown.

Private Property Rights Observatory records show that approximately 2,534 violations to private property have been registered in Venezuela between 2005 and November 2011.

October 2011:

Chávez expropriates popular tourist destination “Los Roques,” beginning its transition into a federally- controlled territory.

Thirteen tourism companies operating from the Simón Bolívar Airport in Maiquetía receive a 30-day eviction notice, which forces them to abandon the business places they have occupied for approximately 15 years

etc etc..

July 2011:

In Maracaibo, 47 expropriated farmlands remain abandoned, 24 farms continue to be partially or completely intervened, and the Peonío de Jesús “Chucho” Meleán farm is militarized

June 2011:

Chávez approves expropriation of 129 apartments in the Augusto Malavé Villalba complex in Carabobo State.

Venezuelan government approves the expropriation of 22 plots of land in Miranda State

January 2011:

A survey by Datanálisis finds that 80% of Venezuelans want private property to be respected.

President Chávez threatens Banco Provincial de Venezuela, an affiliate of Spanish bank BBVA, with expropriation.

December 2010:

According to Datanálisis, 74% of Venezuelans reject the government’s expropriations of private companies.

etc etc..


mmmm yeeeees ! democracy and fairness ? read again.

For that, the right wing of course vilifies him. I think he'd take a lot of joy in seeing the foaming at the mouth rhetoric coming from here.


No, the right thinkers vilify him beacuse he's a theiving, anti-democratic, dictating cnut..

the rhetoric foaming from here ? yes your rhetoric is indeed foaming and he'd take a lot of joy in it..

but as for the right thinkers; he's dead, we're not. We rejoice, he rots.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 11:23
The Killing Fields Of Caracas - Investors.com (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/082510-545008-the-killing-fields-of-caracas.htm?p=full)

http://www.investors.com/image/ISS2c0826_ph100825_345.jpg.cms

What a girl.. i'm in love.. read below...


The silent protest at Monday night's Miss Universe Pageant in Las Vegas was invisible to nearly everyone — except Venezuelans. On her final catwalk, the ranking Miss Universe, Stefania Fernandez, suddenly whipped out a Venezuelan flag in a patriotic but protocol-breaking gesture.

Fernandez waved her flag for the same reason Americans waved theirs after 9/11 — to convey resolution amid distress. Her flag had seven stars, significant because Chavez had arbitrarily added an eighth, making any use of a difficult-to-find seven-star banner an act of defiance.

Fernandez's countrymen went wild with joy on bulletin boards and Facebook, showing just how worried they are about their country. Their greatest fear is violent crime.

Ever since Chavez became president in 1999, Venezuelan cities have become hellholes in which murder rates have more than quadrupled. At 233 per 100,000, or one murder every 90 minutes, the rate in Caracas now tops that of every war zone in the world, according to an official National Statistics Institute study released Wednesday.

In fact, crime is the defining fact of life in today's Venezuela. About 96% of all murder victims are poor and lower-middle class, the very people Chavez claims to represent. "Don't venture into barrios at any time of the day, let alone at night," warns the Lonely Planet guide to Venezuela to hardy adventure travelers.

By contrast, the murder rate in cartel-haunted Juarez, Mexico, is 133 per 100,000, with Mexico's overall rate 8 per 100,000, about the same as Wichita, Kan. Colombia, fighting a narcoterror war since 1964, has an overall rate of 37 per 100,000, slightly higher than Baltimore at 36.9. The overall U.S. rate is 5.4.

Make no mistake, a murder rate like Caracas' is a crime against humanity. The absence of personal security renders all other human rights moot. By coincidence, that's just what Chavez seeks to eliminate as he turns his country into a Cuba-style socialist state. Instead of Castroite firing squads or Stalinesque gulags, Chavez outsources the dirty work of socialism to criminals while throwing dissidents in jail and threatening to censor newspapers.

He may try to suppress the Dante-like photos of corpses piled high at the Caracas morgue from the El Nacional newspaper, but the hard fact is that Chavez is responsible for what's going on.

Early in his reign, he fomented class hatred by justifying theft so long as it was carried out by the poor. His arbitrary expropriations and encouragement of squatting on private property also contributed to an atmosphere of lawlessness that has since exploded.

Chavez also demeaned work, urging the poor to take his handouts. As a result, 40% of Venezuela's 20 million workers are now unemployed, with seven of eight not wanting work, according to the National Statistics Institute.

"It may be that the Chavista giveaways provide free time for the criminals to spend doing their thing rather than being dutifully employed and thus busy," wrote the Venezuelan blogger at The Devil's Excrement Web site.

Then there's Chavez's encouragement of the drug trade. In 2005, he cut off cooperation with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, calling U.S. agents "spies." The move opened Venezuela's vast territory to drug traffickers fleeing the crackdown in Colombia.

Drug cash bought off government officials, with a 2009 U.S. government report noting that the Chavista regime includes drug kingpins at top levels, and that the National Guard, which controls ports, has been bought off by traffickers. Today, nearly all drug flights heading to Central America, the Caribbean and Africa originate in Venezuela.

By permitting FARC to operate in his territory, Chavez has also become an undeclared state sponsor of terror. FARC now controls 60% of Colombia's cocaine production and kidnaps, murders, extorts and people-trafficks inside Venezuela.

The cartel's free rein means Chavez may now be powerless to control it. Like a deal with the devil, it is penetrating government and may eventually topple Chavez.

Meantime, Chavez is using crime as a tool to oppress. Why that doesn't merit sanctions by the international community remains a mystery.



very fair and democratic !

:ugh:

Matari
6th Mar 2013, 11:23
When you lose the taxi drivers, you lose the country. Hugo lost his taxi drivers years ago, and could only hold on to power through corrupt 'elections' in Caracas slums. A trip from Maiquetía to center of town would typically be a string of invective against the great commandante. Everyone had relatives in the US, and everyone except the communist cadres were looking for a way out.

Colombia, right next door, accepted the fleeing Venezuelan middle class, the engineers, the doctors, with open arms, and is thriving now. Venezuela, without the oil, is a basket case.

I wonder why Sunray (and others...they'll be along shortly) never addresses the exodus of the middle class from these great socialist paradises, and the lengths the governments go to keep them in. Venezuela, where even arepas were in short supply, was well on its way to becoming another Cuba. Only a bullet ensures allegiance to the cause.

500N
6th Mar 2013, 11:30
"Venezuela, without the oil, is a basket case."

I just did a quick look and didn't realise just how much
oil made up the GDP of the country.

Way too much dependence on one item.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 11:36
but if you're going to weild ultimate power over the citizenry disarm them..

(Maybe for another thread gun bans work..)

Hugo Chavez Outlaws Gun Ownership, Murder Rate Hits 21,692 (http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/hugo-chavez-outlaws-gun-ownership-murder-rate-hits-21692/)

Andy_S
6th Mar 2013, 11:45
Sunray Minor,

While you make, what on the face of it, are reasonable points, context is everything……

Having castigated the BBC earlier, I have to acknowledge this far more objective piece:

BBC News - Hugo Chavez leaves Venezuela in economic muddle (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20795781)

It makes the point that although Chavez oversaw a more equitable distribution of ‘the cake’ in Venezuela, that cake hasn’t grown significantly. Since (as others have noted) the price of oil has increased greatly during the Chavez years, where has the dosh gone? As the BBC article suggests, it has probably disappeared through a combination of corruption, incompetence and impromptu economic policy making. And of course, because he was effectively a dictator, no-one could hold Chavez to account.
The reality is that while he may, indeed, have reduced inequality, he has done so simply by sloshing oil revenues around rather than any meaningful structural reform of the economy. Meanwhile, Venezuela has been outperformed economically by Brazil and Columbia, and it’s middle classes have been bullied mercilessly.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 11:54
though Andy i do have to chuckle at the BBC's presentation of being in a 'muddle', like one would get when one has too much paperwork on one's desk and mislays a document..

muddle indeed !

Of course the BBC could never admit that socialist doctrine has resulted in an effing hellhole !

'muddle' will have to do...

sitigeltfel
6th Mar 2013, 12:09
"Venezuela, without the oil, is a basket case."

I just did a quick look and didn't realise just how much
oil made up the GDP of the country.

Way too much dependence on one item.

Swap the word "Venezuela" for "Scotland" and you could put that post on the SNP thread. ;)

Sunray Minor
6th Mar 2013, 12:15
Stuckgear,

Wow...I take it all back. He clearly needs to die (no, be assassinated) for all that.

Rather than getting your "impartial" information from What's Next Venezuela? | What's Next Venezuela Newsroom (http://www.whatsnextvenezuela.com) perhaps we can agree to reference that notoriously socialist commie rag, The Economist, for a slightly more balanced view on Chavez' record. The Economist has pulled no punches and takes avowedly neo-liberal stances on Latin America: Venezuela after Chávez: Now for the reckoning | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2013/03/venezuela-after-ch%C3%A1vez)
Or perhaps Postscript: Hugo Chavez, 1954-2013 : The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/03/postscript-hugo-chavez-1954-2013.html)

Its interesting the focus on the murder rate. The article you are quoting plays fast and loose with the figures. Venezuela indeed has a terrible crime rate at about 45/100,000. But Colombia's is about 31/100,000 and much of central America sits at 70 to 90/100,000. Put another way, if Venezuela's murder rate at 10x that of the US' is a "crime against humanity", is it also a crime against humanity that the US' murder rate is 5-10x that of most Western nations? Or would slightly less strident language be used? The article you quoted is a propaganda piece equal or worse to that the most rabid Chavista supporter could come out with.

The US does itself no credibility in overblowing Chavez' reign, from one of simply flawed and egoistic policy with a mixed bag of success into a "terrorist" "dictatorship" where his death should be cheered with as much joy as Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein.

Sprogget
6th Mar 2013, 12:25
but if you're going to weild ultimate power over the citizenry disarm them..
It's Wield. I could understand it if you were fkucking up antidisestablishmentarianism, but a one syllable word with five letters.:ugh:

Thick people in remain thick shocker.http://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/rofl.gif

Matari
6th Mar 2013, 12:34
Sunray,

Don't bang on too much about how Chavez was simply giving the finger to the US. We're quite used to it; in fact, cultured Europeans have made it a refined art.

I give you this: Chavez had yet to become the mass murderer that communists will, left to their own devices, inevitably become. He was a thug, a thief and a threat to the region. He had not yet achieved the ultimate power that he craved, but he was well on his way.

Capriles narrowly lost the last election (stolen, of course). We shall see how brutal Hugo's henchmen behave now. There are many skeletons in the closets there. The powerful will not give up power without a fight.

Meanwhile, enjoy the gin fizz at the London cocktail parties. I will have a cold Polar beer, the one private business he tried desperately to expropriate but could not.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 12:40
It's Wield. I could understand it if you were fkucking up antidisestablishmentarianism, but a one syllable word with five letters.:ugh:

Thick people in remain thick shocker.http://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/rofl.gif


ohh a typing lame from the resident Professor Pub Singer.

The Micahel Bolton covers not in much demand? so you're reduced to internet forum surfing looking for typographical errors in posts.

so perhaps while you snort with your lofty intellectualism, you can ponder the words 'play the ball not the player'.. or with your perputual bile is that too difficult a concept to comprehend?

never mind pub singer, your public continues to laugh at you, not with you.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 12:46
Many people in Venezuela are waiting for news of his health with bated breath, hoping their leader recovers. However, there is no denying that there are also many people – especially those who were deprived of their wealth and the unlimited power granted by the United States – dreaming of his death so they can try to reclaim what they’ve lost.



well that's a contradictory postulation in itself.. if they had unlimited power, then their power wouldn't have been limited..

Andy_S
6th Mar 2013, 12:47
.....the death of one of the most honest, principled and bravest politicians the world has seen in a long time....

Obviously you're being ironic.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 12:52
Oh quick Andy, before Professor Pub Singer with his tenure at Horley University launches into another bile filled rant, add some grammar !


NB: of course, i, as 99.9% of other psoters, can understand your post without.


Obviously you're being ironic.


One would hope that the statement was made with irony.

KAG
6th Mar 2013, 12:59
the country has the world’s biggest oil reserves – 296.5 billion barrels.Even some corrupted extremist islamist dictators can make poverty decrease in their own country with less than that.

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 13:04
Sprogget :

Before you dish the dirt on others, perhaps you could set your own house in order. Can you explain what this sentence of yours means (if anything!)

Thick people in remain thick shocker

Reading most of Stuckgear's postings, I accept that his grammar and spelling may not be up to the professorial standard of academic excellence that you demand, but he comes across as anything but 'thick'.

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 14:00
Cape, Thanks.. I think ! :confused:

pvmw
6th Mar 2013, 14:38
The scum of jet blast (and of the world) rejoice at the death of one of the most honest, principled and bravest politicians the world has seen in a long time ..................

Hilarious:D:D:D
Such quality argument there. Perhaps you would take a moment to explain to this "scum" how it is that this paragon of socialist virtue has managed to accululate a personal family fortune estimated to be in excess of Two BILLION Dollars?

What is it with socialist camp followers and reality? Is it really so difficult for them to grasp that their hereos are no less crooked and venal than any other dictator?

PS I would have corrected the typo, but I recognise its necessary to leave something that the loonies can criticise that is within their intellectual capacity.

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 14:54
Let me tell you then that when Mugabe dies, preferably a slow and painful death, I will be part of 'the scum of Jetblast' rejoicing. We already have the chamagne on ice!

hellsbrink
6th Mar 2013, 15:00
MikeEcho

Come on, just tell us what side of the fence you are on. :}


Oh, quoting something from RIA Novosti via "The Moscow News" is hardly giving us a "neutral" report, the history of both organisations as well as the current status of RIA Novosti should tell you that, and that means that the only thing they were ALLOWED to say is the nonsense you quoted.

Ya think Putin is going to let a State-owned media outlet say anything that goes against Putin's policies?

Get us a more "independent" source that says the same as your thoughts and reports, then come back.

Slasher
6th Mar 2013, 15:04
The scum of jet blast

And proud of it! :)

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 15:16
Me too, but it is very typical of the left wing brigade that they refer to anyone whose views aren't the same as theirs as 'scum'. It says more about them really than it does about the 'scum'.

lomapaseo
6th Mar 2013, 16:51
here we go again

the usual culprits turn the discussion onto themselves

the scum of JB

we need names and a scorecard to follow in the various threads. I can't remember who's a liberal or conservative, a gun toter or a pansie :uhoh: and while we're at it we need some sort of avatar under a name to designate a male or female persuasion. I've often wondered if Slasher is one

rgbrock1
6th Mar 2013, 16:54
loma:

Rest assured that Slasher is indeed a "bloke"!!! :ok:

vaqueroaero
6th Mar 2013, 16:57
I spent nearly four great years living in Venezuela at the end of the nineties, departing soon after Chavez gained power.

Now hopefully the country can start to repair itself......

Capetonian
6th Mar 2013, 17:37
Here's my Avatar.

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w497/pprunemike/Untitled-1_zpsc92b6559.png

500N
6th Mar 2013, 17:40
"The scum of jet blast"

"And proud of it! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif"


+1

Capetonian
Superb, where do I buy one :ok:

We could get a set made up just for the scum on JB :O

stuckgear
6th Mar 2013, 17:47
i'll have one too.




can't remember who's a liberal or conservative


tricky ! i've been called a member of the RWS (despite being in the UK) a right wing gun nut and a PC lefty.

go figure.!

Cape your coffee receptacle brings to mind the age old philosphical question...

if a tree falls in the forest and lands on a socialist and nobody hears the wails of 'right wing conspiracy', does anybody care ?

rgbrock1
6th Mar 2013, 18:04
Capetonian:

Although your coffee mug is admirable I tend to like mine a bit more!

http://rlv.zcache.com/army_ranger_coffee_mug-p168008655714484299ensx7_400.jpg

500N
6th Mar 2013, 18:06
RGB

That would get the Lefty latte sipping set into a lather :O

rgbrock1
6th Mar 2013, 18:12
500N:

So would the wife's coffee mug!

http://rlv.zcache.com/army_ranger_wife_mug-p168775911401219761enqyl_216.jpg

11Fan
6th Mar 2013, 18:20
I heard that Sean Penn is going to star in a movie documenting Chavez's life and rise to power. That makes three movies that Sean Penn did where the last 15 minutes will be the best. All have a common theme.

Chavez (in Production)
Milk
Dead Man Walking

I love movies with happy endings. :ok:

cavortingcheetah
6th Mar 2013, 19:01
Bombastic young Hugo Chávez died a patriot to his people and that is a good epitaph for a man to have.

brickhistory
6th Mar 2013, 19:37
With a sub-title of "Really, really rich due to corruption" ruin the look on the tombstone?

pigboat
6th Mar 2013, 19:49
Ahmadinejad predicts Chavez will arise from the dead. (http://weaselzippers.us/2013/03/06/ahmadinejad-predicts-hugo-chavez-will-rise-from-the-dead-he-will-return-on-resurrection-day-with-imam-mahdi-and-jesus/)

Ronald Reagan
6th Mar 2013, 19:59
Chavez had his faults for sure but to be fair did seem to be well liked in his own country by the majority. Despite his failings he has not gone around the world having war after war! So compared to many western leaders he is a saint!
His handling of the economy cannot be much worse than that of recent American and UK governments in their own nations. The simple fact they say Chavez was bad meant he must have had some good points:}

Dushan
6th Mar 2013, 19:59
here we go again

the usual culprits turn the discussion onto themselves

the scum of JB

we need names and a scorecard to follow in the various threads. I can't remember who's a liberal or conservative, a gun toter or a pansie :uhoh: and while we're at it we need some sort of avatar under a name to designate a male or female persuasion. I've often wondered if Slasher is one

At your service, sir. Just look at my location and caption. That should tell you all, and I am a "he".

500N
6th Mar 2013, 20:04
How come the righties are the Scum :O

We could have a right royal gathering / piss up
and toast to the latte sipping lefties :ok:

chuks
6th Mar 2013, 20:13
The Ring Wing Sisterhood rides again!

What is it with these Socialists and Communists, and money? Fidel, allegedly, has plenty of dollars stashed away, albeit merely something like $10 million, and now we are told that El Hugo had thousands of millions?

Poor old Erich Honecker... the Ossis flipped out when they found out that he merely was able to shop at the DDR version of Aldi and ride around in a Volvo instead of a Land Rover, so that he went right down in the polls, but Hugo has gone out riding high.

Did Hugo take it with him?

Rail Engineer
6th Mar 2013, 20:55
The scum of jet blast (and of the world) rejoice at the death of one of the most honest, principled and bravest politicians the world has seen in a long time (surrounded by scoundrels and racketeerers posing as leaders of the 'Developed' world) but they don't realise what motives are really behind those who demonised and opposed Chavez and the like....

What idiotic and brainwashed fools my old man's generation are.What a stupuid, arrogant and pathetic post. :rolleyes:

You really must be a Troll or incredibly blind or stupid, or a member of the Labour Party

Here are a few comments from Human Rights Watch - you know that VERY Right Wing Authoritarion body
Hugo Chávez’s presidency (1999-2013) was characterized by a dramatic concentration of power and open disregard for basic human rights guarantees.

After enacting a new constitution with ample human rights protections in 1999 – and surviving a short-lived coup d’état in 2002 – Chávez and his followers moved to concentrate power. They seized control of the Supreme Court and undercut the ability of journalists, human rights defenders, and other Venezuelans to exercise fundamental rights.

By his second full term in office, the concentration of power and erosion of human rights protections had given the government free rein to intimidate, censor, and prosecute Venezuelans who criticized the president or thwarted his political agenda. In recent years, the president and his followers used these powers in a wide range of prominent cases, whose damaging impact was felt by entire sectors of Venezuelan society.

Many Venezuelans continued to criticize the government. But the prospect of reprisals – in the form of arbitrary or abusive state action – forced journalists and human rights defenders to weigh the consequences of disseminating information and opinions critical of the government, and undercut the ability of judges to adjudicate politically sensitive cases.
Lets take a look at Judicuial Independence
In 2004, Chávez and his followers in the National Assembly carried out a political takeover of Venezuela’s Supreme Court, adding 12 seats to what had been a 20-seat tribunal, and filling them with government supporters. The packed Supreme Court ceased to function as a check on presidential power. Its justices have openly rejected the principle of separation of powers and pledged their commitment to advancing Chávez’s political agenda. This commitment has been reflected in the court’s rulings, which repeatedly validated the government’s disregard for human rights.

Lets look at Media Freedom
Under Chávez, the government dramatically expanded its ability to control the content of the country’s broadcast and news media. It passed laws extending and toughening penalties for speech that “offends” government officials, prohibiting the broadcast of messages that “foment anxiety in the public,” and allowing for the arbitrary suspension of TV channels, radio stations, and websites.

The Chávez government sought to justify its media policies as necessary to “democratize” the country’s airwaves. Yet instead of promoting pluralism, the government abused its regulatory authority to intimidate and censor its critics. It expanded the number of government-run TV channels from one to six, while taking aggressive steps to reduce the availability of media outlets that engage in critical programming.

What About Human Rights ?
In addition to neutralizing the judiciary as a guarantor of rights, the Chávez government repudiated the Inter-American human rights system, failing to carry out binding rulings of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights and preventing the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights from conducting in-country monitoring of human rights problems. In September 2012, Venezuela announced its withdrawal from the American Convention on Human Rights, a move that leaves Venezuelans without recourse to what has been for years – in countries throughout the region – themost important external mechanism for seeking redress for abuses when national courts fail to provide it. The Chávez government also sought to block international organizations from monitoring the country’s human rights practices. In 2008, the president had representatives of Human Rights Watch forcibly detained and summarily expelled from the country after they released a report documenting his government’s violation of human rights norms. Following the expulsion, his then-foreign minister and now chosen successor, Nicolás Maduro, announced that, “Any foreigner who comes to criticize our country will be immediately expelled.”

Under Chávez, the government also sought to discredit human rights defenders by accusing them of receiving support from the US government to undermine Venezuelan democracy. While local nongovernmental organizations have received funding from US and European sources – a common practice in Latin America where private funding is scarce – there is no credible evidence that the independence and integrity of the defenders’ work has been compromised by international support. Nonetheless, in 2010, the Supreme Court ruled that individuals or organizations receiving foreign funding could be prosecuted for “treason.” The National Assembly passed legislation prohibiting organizations that “defend political rights” or “monitor the performance of public bodies” from receiving international funding. It also imposed stiff fines on organizations that “invite” to Venezuela foreigners who express opinions that “offend” government institutions

Chávez also rejected international efforts to promote human rights in other countries. In recent years, Venezuela consistently voted against UN General Assembly resolutions condemning abusive practices in North Korea, Burma, Iran, and Syria. Moreover, Chávez was a vocal supporter of Syria’s Bashar al-Assad, Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi, and Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, bestowing upon each of these leaders the “Order of the Liberator,” Venezuela’s highest official honor. Under Chávez, Venezuela’s closest ally was Cuba, the only country in Latin America that systematically represses virtually all forms of political dissent. Chávez identified Fidel Castro – who headed Cuba’s repressive government until his health deteriorated in 2006 – as his model and mentor..

Hardly suprising that Labour are in deep mourning tonight.

Incidentally this is what a variety of Lefties have had to say (Courtesy of Guido Fawkes)

Owen Jones: “Really upset to hear of Chavez’s death. Ignore his ignorant critics. A democratically elected fighter for the poor.”
Ken Livingstone: “Hugo Chavez showed there is an alternative to neo-liberalism and colonialism in Venezuela and worldwide. He was a friend & comrade.”
Diane Abbott: “Hugo Chavez has died. Commiserations to his family & the people of Venezuela. Tragedy for Latin America & Caribbean.”
Len McCluskey: “The executive of Unite, the biggest union in Britain and Ireland, wishes to express their deep sadness on behalf of its 1.5 million members at the death of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Our sincere condolences go to his family and the people of Venezuela.”
Kevin Maguire: “RIP Hugo Chavez if reports accurate. One of a wave of Lefties who improved lives of South Americans.”
George Galloway: “Farewell Comandante Hugo Chavez champion of the poor the oppressed everywhere. Modern day Spartacus. Rest in Peace.”
Jeremy Corbyn: “Very sad news at death of Chavez; he will leave a huge legacy of a different power relationship in Latin America.”
Grahame Morris: “RIP President Hugo Chavez. Deepest sympathies & respect for a true champion of the people from Labour Friends.”
Chris Williamson: “Desperately sad news from Venezuela. RIP Hugo Chavez you inspired progressives around the world. Viva Bolivar revolution.”
Ian Lavery: “Hugo Chavez has sadly passed on. A true socialist hero inspiring millions of ordinary people.”

Rail Engineer
6th Mar 2013, 21:10
"Before Chavez (1999) and after Chavez figures (2009-11)

Per Capital GDP: US$4,105, US$10,810
Unemployment: 14.5%, 7.6%
Infant mortality rate, per 1,000: 20%, 13%
Household extreme poverty: 19.3%, 7%

Population extreme poverty: 23.4%, 8.5%
Oil exports up from 14.4 billion to 60 billion $
Minimum wage: < US$00/month, ~US$700 month"
And inflation at 28.08 year on Year between those years.

Here is what Trading Economics has to say about Venezuala
The inflation rate in Venezuela was recorded at 22.18 percent in January of 2013.
Inflation Rate in Venezuela is reported by the Central Bank of Venezuela.
Historically, from 1973 until 2013, Venezuela Inflation Rate averaged 26.4 Percent reaching an all time high of 115.2 Percent in September of 1996 and a record low of 3.2 Percent in February of 1973.

In Venezuela, the main components of the consumer price index are: Food and Noon-Alcoholic Beverages (32.2 percent of the total weight); Transports (10.8 percent) and House Rental (9.8 percent).

Restaurants and Hotels account for 8.8 percent; Clothing and Footwear for 7.2 percent; Miscellaneous Goods and Services for 5.8 percent and Household Equipment for 5.6 percent.

Others include: Health Care (4.3 percent); Communications (3.8 percent); Leisure and Culture (3.6 percent); Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco (3 percent); Education (2.7 percent) and Household Services (2.3 percent).

The national index has a base of 100 as of December 2007.

The CPI covers 10 metropolitan areas, plus 74 other localities in the rest of the country.

Lonewolf_50
6th Mar 2013, 21:13
You really must be a Troll or incredibly blind or stupid, or a member of the Labour Party
All three is not out of the question, though I might bet the under on the Labour Party. M.E. is a source of much anti Western/Anti American rhetoric. Cares not for Israelis, nor Jews. A few of his offerins lately, with his own words as a caveat up front.
I realised a while ago this forum isn't the place for reasoned debate so I'm not here to sound credible.
He succeeds at that. Note to Mike Echo: Chuck Hagel appears uncrushed, amigo.
In defense of Hugo Chavez | INTERNATIONAL | The Moscow News (In defense of Hugo Chavez | INTERNATIONAL | The Moscow News (http://themoscownews.com/international/20110818/188937001.html))

Their war fought with your children's blood... AIPAC-ing a Big Punch:
Israel ups Iran war rhetoric in push for US aid -

Whilst you dumb asses debate whether to have a red or blue dildo shoved
up your asses, the money junkeys continue to take you to the cleaners...
$9,000,000,000,000 MISSING From The Federal Reserve...

Mostly middle aged, white (and already) very rich males were responsible for screwing up this country, fixing banking interest rates and comitting other financial crimes that have already resulted in...

"What force could be so formiddable to make a decorated soldier eat his owns words?" This one... Jewish Lobby Crushes Chuck Hagel - YouTube

Isn't that just a tad circular? Go kick up some shit abroad and then wonder
why immigration is on the increase? Yes, I know it's not that simple either.

Left, right, centre…this is all bollock speak to the upcoming generation. It
matters not a shred to me if you choose to have a blue or red dildo shoved up you’re a** every 4 years. I am one of a...

Oh my, the rednecks are out again to attack the messenger. Nothing ever
changes. :rolleyes:

Highly recommended for my non-American and American friends alike, a
10-part series by Oliver Stone covering major American political events and wars America has participated in. It covers the little...

The Road to World War 3 - Compulsory viewing The Road to World
War 3 - YouTube (The Road to World War 3 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/HP7L8bw5QF4))

Wikipedia - Israel is paying internet workers to manipulate online content -
YouTube

Hang on a minute, I'll attempt to locate the paper receipts left lying around
by the bribers. Failing that I'll consult the official list of who threatened
who with cutting off aid, available...

...and therefore, the nation known as the biggest threat to world peace
is? :rolleyes: 138 - 9 OK, listen up my Zionist adversaries... You love calling Israel 'The only democracy in the...

A 100 articles, blogs, commentaries and analysis pieces written in the
last 12 hours: Israel's Settlement Expansion Plans Evoke Widespread
Criticism...

More gems from BenThere's and ORACs friends: "God gave it to us,
it's ours!" Israeli Extremists in America - YouTube Understanding a
psychotic Israeli settler - YouTube Crazy israeli...

BenThere, you only really see what you want to, don't you? First
and foremostly you probably didn't even watch the video as you saw the face of David Dake as a preview. He is featured for less...

The war game is very easy. He said, she said is often the simplest form of
war you can play in a bid to create confusion and panic amongst your enemies. These right wingers love to latch on to open...

I didn't say those around it are, in fact quite to the contrary. I realised a
while ago this forum isn't the place for reasoned debate so I'm not here to
sound credible.
Then again, maybe he is from the Labour Party.

All from his own posts.

KAG
6th Mar 2013, 21:19
To sunray minor and the others: well this is good to have the other side of the story too.

This is not probabely all black or white with Hugo Chavez. And when you say he was not the worst learder, I beleive you.
I didn't change my mind in the fact I beleive he wanted (and his familly!) to control the country, and he was not planing to leave at all (A new Castro?) and for me it looks like a problem when the same person calls his system a democracy. His international politics (and sometimes interior too!) was "against the US", and only "against the US", it sounds a bit limited to me.
However some of you guys have some points too, let's be honest.

Further more, each country is different, and personnaly I don't know what kind of leader Venezuela and its people need. You seem to be more aware of Venezuela than most of us, so what you say is important.

Matari
6th Mar 2013, 21:26
Prediction: at about 1:30am UK time, an irrelevant YouTube music video will be posted here, with a reference to hatred of this or that nationality, and with gratuitous use of the G-damn phrase. Just a gut feeling, that's all. Anyone in on the bet?

Dushan
6th Mar 2013, 21:33
Hmmm, are we doing the hour/minute pool, because I would put it a bit later since the death of a comarade may require a few more pints than usual.

Matari
6th Mar 2013, 22:07
Sorry, I'm sticking by my 1:30am prediction. The pints will be consumed much quicker to deaden the pain, resulting in an early chucking out of the pub, and a quick stumble to the computer to find that perfect Joan Baez video.

brickhistory
6th Mar 2013, 22:30
I'll take 0145 and Amy Winehouse's "Tried to get me to go to rehab..."












Too soon? :E

Dushan
6th Mar 2013, 22:37
I am thinking "the Internationale" by the Red Army Men's Chior.

KAG
6th Mar 2013, 23:01
Well, a democracy is to hear everybody.

Let's not be, in our attitude, a bad example.

So I would like to hear what the Chavez supporters think about his list of "friends":

-Al Gaddafi
-Bashar Al-Assad
-Castro
-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

It would be interesting to know your opinion.

500N
6th Mar 2013, 23:05
KAG

Castro is a non entity, if it wasn't for the US "head in the sand"
stance from still smarting from getting a kicking in the 60's
Cuba would be a completely different place now if they had
done what they should have done years ago and opened up trade
and flights.

The rest, I'll leave it to Chavez's friends !!! :O

BenThere
6th Mar 2013, 23:30
And also supporters of North Korea's Kim, Zimbabwe's Mugabe, South Africa's Zuma, and all therest of the despots of the world who thought highly of Chavez.

Let's hear what you have to say about how Chavez made his country better.

Slasher
7th Mar 2013, 02:55
Although your coffee mug is admirable I tend to like mine a bit more!

Mine is rather simple and to the point(s) -

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlHCL6l75vQTQQrzu8EgMQ1xi6TJMN9Eua62MJ8yi LmeeH-u4x

Missus forbids me to use it when the little bloke's around which is fair enough.

lomapaseo
7th Mar 2013, 04:00
Mine is rather simple and to the point(s) -



the handle is as useless as tits on a bull

RatherBeFlying
7th Mar 2013, 04:21
An interesting comparison could be drawn between Nigeria and VZ as to how much the common people benefit from the oil.

Now it wouldn't be that Chavez and those close to him in government have done very well from the share of oil revenues that have found their way to them -- 2nd and 3rd world regimes pretty much all skim off a nice chunk of the proceeds.

But it definitely looks that VZ does spread around a considerable chunk to the masses compared to most.

hellsbrink
7th Mar 2013, 04:25
But at what cost, RBF?

You ain't going to say that the "redistribution" was done out of altruistic ideals and not to shore up the status of the "President for Life", are you?

cavortingcheetah
7th Mar 2013, 04:58
-Al Gaddafi
-Bashar Al-Assad
-Castro
-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

If those were Chávez's friends then he was a fortunate man to have such stalwart men of principle as allies. These are men who brook or tolerated no rumblings from their respective rabbles. Their primary interest might be self enrichment, although as a hypothesis that is unlikely in all cases, but their secondary one is the advancement of their country.

It would be hard, on the other hand, to find a more suitable list of Chinese style take away running dog than that below. These are those who mourn Chávez with the opportunism of the political acolyte and whose interest in their own countries is unworthy of the political positions in which they find themselves.

Owen Jones
Ken Livingstone
Diane Abbott
Len McCluskey
Kevin Maguire
George Galloway
Jeremy Corbyn
Grahame Morris
Chris Williamson
Ian Lavery

Hugo Chávez was no Simon Bolivar but he is the closest creation to a hero that South America is likely to worship for decades. There can be no political spectrum for a dictator. The criterion must be whether the man did a good job for his country. The political rabble above would no doubt consider themselves enlightened but enlightenment does not necessarily equip one to govern society or to deserve positions of authority over the slightly stupider.

Edit: To add: Slightly stupider perhaps should be qualified to read less cunning.
There's more than one or two on this second list who more than make up for what they lack in intelligence with straightforward guile.

Solid Rust Twotter
7th Mar 2013, 05:36
As a barometer, these two are a good indication of what not to do. Says it all, really...

Malema mourns death of anti-imperialist Chávez
06 Mar 2013 11:11 - Sapa

Expelled ANC Youth League president Julius Malema has joined leaders in mourning the death of Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez.

http://cdn.mg.co.za/crop/content/images/2012/07/04/malema-oupa.jpg/610x350/

"I join millions of progressive individuals ... in sending my heartfelt condolences to the people of Venezuela for losing a fearless, politically determined and ideologically steadfast leader in President Hugo Chávez," he said.

Malema said Chávez was among the few revolutionaries who challenged the dominance of imperialism in the world and exposed its weaknesses.

Chávez died on Tuesday after a two-year battle with cancer, ending 14 years of rule in Venezuela.

"Despite massive resistance from rented imperialist puppets, President Hugo Chávez was able to lead Venezuela into an era where the wealth of Venezuela, particularly oil, was returned to the ownership of the people as a whole," Malema said.

The Young Communist League of South Africa said it was devastated at the news of Chávez's death.

"Comrade Chávez was an inspiration to all progressive forces around the world .... His defiance of imperialism and his insistence that Venezuela's vast oil reserves be used to uplift the masses of the people has changed the lives of millions of people," spokesperson Khaya Xaba said.

Xaba said that while capitalists sneered at socialism, and major imperial forces disrupted it, Chávez has shown how socialism could benefit all.

Condolences
​Meanwhile, President Jacob Zuma sent condolences to the people of Venezuela on Wednesday.

"Our hearts are with the family of President Chávez, as well as the government and the people of Venezuela during this difficult time of mourning the departure of this respected revolutionary leader of Venezuela and indeed the entire progressive family of nations," Zuma said.

Chávez died on Tuesday after a two-year battle with cancer, ending 14 years of rule in Venezuela.

Zuma paid tribute to Chávez's visionary leadership since he took office on February 2 1999, and his commitment to the social struggles of the less fortunate in Venezuela.

He said that under Chávez's leadership, Venezuela had instituted a dramatic change in promoting regional integration based on the principles of social justice. – Sapa



Not to mention Mugabe's close links with Chavez. Birds of a feather, eh?




Mugabe ally Chavez dies from cancer
05/03/2013 00:00:00
by AFP/Staff Reporter

VENEZUELEAN President Hugo Chavez lost his battle with cancer on Tuesday, silencing the leading voice of the Latin American left and plunging his divided oil-rich nation into an uncertain future.

Chavez was one of President Robert Mugabe’s strongest allies, with the two men identifying with each other’s struggles convinced they were fending United States-backed attempts to overthrow their governments.

Venezuela’s Vice President Nicolas Maduro, who struggled to hold back tears as he announced Chavez's death, said the government had deployed the armed forces and police "to accompany and protect our people and guarantee the peace."

Chavez had named Maduro as his heir, but the Venezuelan opposition is sure to press for fresh elections and tensions have been mounting over government allegations that its domestic rivals are in league with its foreign foes.
Maduro will take over as interim president and an election will be called within 30 days, the country's foreign minister said.

"It is the mandate that comandante President Hugo Chavez gave us," Foreign Minister Elias Jaua told state news channel Telesur, explaining that there was an "absolute absence" over the constitutional procedure to replace Chavez.
Jaua did not specify if the election would be held within 30 days or if the date would be chosen during that period.

The minister's announcement that Maduro will take the helm in the interim also appears to contradict the constitution, which says that the National Assembly president takes over the presidency if the president dies.

Fernando Soto Rojas, a lawmaker from Chavez's socialist PSUV party, had said earlier that National Assembly president Diosdado Cabello must take the helm.

"There is no power vacuum. The National Assembly with its president Diosdado Cabello must take power and later we will go without a doubt to an electoral process," Soto Rojas told state-run television, adding that he backed Maduro as an election candidate.

Shortly before Chavez's death was announced, Maduro and other top officials had accused Venezuela's enemies of somehow giving the 58-year-old leftist the cancer that eventually killed him, and two US military attaches were expelled.

Soldiers brought the Venezuelan flag down to half-staff at the Caracas military hospital, where senior figures in Chavez's 14-year-old administration gathered before the cameras of state television to break the news.

"We have received the toughest and tragic information that... comandante President Hugo Chavez died today at 4:25 pm," Maduro said.
"Long live Chavez!" the officials shouted at the end of his announcement.

Chavez had been checked into the hospital on February 18 for a course of chemotherapy after spending two months in Cuba, where in December he had undergone his fourth round of cancer surgery since June 2011.

The once ubiquitous symbol of Latin America's "anti-imperialist" left had disappeared from public view after he was flown to Cuba on December 10, an unprecedented absence from the public eye that fuelled all manner of rumours.

The government sent mixed signals about the president's health for weeks, warning one day that he was battling for his life, yet insisting as recently as last weekend that he was still in charge and giving orders.
And the opposition repeatedly accused the government of lying about the president's condition.

Chavez will be mourned by many of the country's poor, who revered the self-styled revolutionary for using the country's oil riches to fund popular housing, health, food and education programs.

And like-minded Latin American leaders like Cuba's Raul Castro, Ecuador's Rafael Correa and Bolivia's Evo Morales lost a close friend who used his diplomatic muscle and cheap oil to shore up their rule.
His death will also be keenly felt by international allies including Mugabe and Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadineja with whom he shared a common loathing for the United States.

Mugabe often referred to Chavez as his “brother”, while Chavez – who died five months after winning an October election, overcoming a resurgent opposition and public frustration over a rising murder rate, regular blackouts and soaring inflation – gave some of the staunchest public support of Mugabe by any leader.

Hosting Mugabe in 2009, Chavez said the Zimbabwean leader “continues, alongside his people, to confront the pretensions of new imperialists”.

In an interview in the same year, Chavez said of his ally: “Mugabe has turned into the target of attacks of various institutions of the world system and through the world press he has been satanised, he is attacked… I want to give him our moral and political backing.

“The people recognize him for his anti-imperialists fights. He is a man that has spent all his life in the anti-colonianism fight. We have to align ourselves in his defence.”

Mugabe is expected to speak on Chavez’s death on Wednesday, and will most certainly attend his burial which has been scheduled for Friday.
Chavez missed his swearing-in for a new six-year term on January 10, but the Supreme Court approved an indefinite delay.

A new election could offer another shot at the presidency to Henrique Capriles, the opposition leader who lost to Chavez in October.

Until picking Maduro, 50, as his political heir, Chavez had never allowed other leaders to emerge within his United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV).

He used the ballot box to consolidate his power and push through policies that drove a wedge into Venezuelan society, alienating the wealthy with expropriations while wooing the poor with social handouts.
Chavez won re-election vowing to make his self-styled 21st century "Bolivarian" revolution "irreversible."

Defence Minister Diego Molero, surrounded by top military officers, said Tuesday that the armed forces would defend the constitution and respect Chavez's wishes.

The opposition had accused Chavez of misusing public funds for his campaign and dominating the airwaves while forcing government workers to attend rallies through intimidation.

His death will particularly affect Cuba's communist regime, whose moribund state-run economy has relied heavily on Chavez's oil generosity.

Under Fidel Castro's mentoring, Chavez became the face of the radical left in Latin America, with regular diatribes against US "imperialism" and the forging of ties with regimes at odds with Washington in Syria, Libya and Iran.
But despite tense relations with the United States, Chavez continued to export one million barrels of oil per day up north.

Before cancer slowed him down, Chavez was known for rousing speeches peppered with religious references, songs and quotes from South American independence hero Simon Bolivar.

The then lieutenant colonel gate-crashed the political scene in 1992 when he led a failed coup against president Carlos Andres Perez.

After two years in prison, he decided to take power through democratic elections, winning in 1998 to become Venezuela's youngest president at age 44.

After reforming the constitution to increase presidential terms to six years and reducing the powers of Congress, he easily won the 2000 election.

Chavez survived a short-lived coup in 2002 that lasted just 47 hours after popular protests restored him to power. A 2004 attempt by the opposition to oust him in a recall referendum was defeated.

Elected to a second six-year term in 2006, Chavez then won a 2009 referendum that abolished the two-term limit and enabled him to run indefinitely.

Now, for the first time in 14 years, Venezuelans will not see his name on the next election's ballot.

stuckgear
7th Mar 2013, 06:27
this should send the lefties into a froth.. not only does it not idolise Chavez.. it's in the DM.. should be enough to leave the lefties not knowing whether to sh1t or go blind.

How typical of the Left to idolise a despot who gloried in attacking America and Britain | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2289326/How-typical-Left-idolise-despot-gloried-attacking-America-Britain.html)


Scenes of mass grief and hysteria have accompanied the deaths of many dictators, from the Soviet Union’s Josef Stalin in 1953 to North Korea’s Kim Jong-Il in 2011.
The public mourning in Venezuela following the death this week of the country’s Socialist President Hugo Chavez from cancer at the age of 58 will be played out for weeks.
The Venezuelan people have been whipped into hysteria by the propaganda of the sinister — and aggressively anti-American — political machine Chavez left behind as his legacy

His designated successor Nicolas Maduro claimed risibly that Venezuela’s President was murdered by the CIA with ‘a technology for inducing cancer’ even as he choked back tears and paid his tributes to a glorious leader.
The truth is that Chavez was a brutal despot who strutted the world stage basking in the international celebrity status he gained as a result of his anti-American rhetoric and relentless attacks on Britain.
He was a master of propaganda who deftly wooed the ‘useful idiots’ of the Left — to use the phrase Stalin applied to Britain’s Labour politicians and trade unionists — while clamping down on free speech in his own country, rigging the political system in his favour and presiding over a nation drowning in bloodshed and mired in poverty.

He befriended murderous tyrants such as Libya’s Colonel Gaddafi, used his country’s vast oil wealth to support terrorist groups such as Hezbollah in Lebanon and helped terrorist drug-runners in Colombia whose products cause misery and death across the world.
He may not have been a genocidal maniac in the style of Kim Jong-Il or Stalin, but Chavez was one of a grotesque line of authoritarian strongmen who have been the curse of Latin America over the decades.
And yet, because of his defiant stance on the U.S. and his attacks on British ‘imperialism’, he was lionised in this country by the Left and its media mouthpieces, The Guardian and the BBC. (Perhaps that’s not so unexpected — we have to remember that a BBC reporter wept during the funeral of arch Palestinian terrorist Yasser Arafat.)

Much of the British Left is prepared to overlook all manner of ugly truths to canonise their secular saints such as Chavez. This explains why the usual suspects have been overcome with grief at the death of the Venezuelan Comandante.
Radio 4’s Today programme, the BBC’s flagship morning news show, led its bulletins with the news of Chavez’s death, according it extraordinary reverence and solemnity.
They gave air-time to his greatest British champion, former London mayor Ken Livingstone, who claimed Chavez ‘was focused on what he could do for the people of Venezuela and of course also what he could do for poor people in New York or London’. Admittedly, his views were opposed by an American commentator.
Livingstone later tweeted: ‘The best tribute for Hugo Chavez is to redouble our efforts for a world free of exploitation and colonialism. RIP.’
Diane Abbott, Labour’s Shadow Health Minister, announced his death was a ‘tragedy for Latin America and the Caribbean’.

Respect Party MP George Galloway portentously tweeted: ‘Farewell Comandante Hugo Chavez champion of the poor, the oppressed everywhere. Modern day Spartacus. Rest in Peace.’
At least they did not join Chavez’s friend, Iran’s President Ahmadinejad, in comparing the departed with Jesus and the Twelfth Imam.
This Latin-American Spartacus-cum-Robin Hood was born in 1954 to parents of a modest background, and he indoctrinated himself in the revolutionary politics of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara while in the army.
Oil-rich Venezuela was so prosperous in those years that they used to say people ‘fell out of trees and into Cadillacs’. But then the price of oil fell in the late Eighties, and poverty and unemployment soared — along with visceral class hatred.

In 1992, Captain Chavez tried and failed to seize power in a coup before turning to ‘democratic’ politics, founding his own party.
Six years later, in 1998, he was elected President — and was still in office when he died.
Opponents in successive elections were dismissed as ‘criminals’, ‘mafia’ and ‘oligarchs’. State funding of opposition political parties was banned and the electoral system reorganised to ensure Chavez could not lose.
Details of those who voted against Chavez were recorded and used to blight their chances of jobs, loans or benefits. His Cuban-trained police bugged the phone calls of dissenters, then aired them on TV to discredit these critics.

For in Venezuela, television was the primary tool Chavez used to destroy free debate, an inconvenient truth that is overlooked by the leftists of the BBC.

He monopolised the media and held court on TV for hours, even days, at a time, with rambling monologues that involved him singing, dancing, ranting, raving and praying.

Live audiences included hapless members of his Cabinet, who he would harangue and humiliate in public, culminating in an Alan Sugar style: ‘You’re fired.’

There was usually an obligatory phone call to his father-figure Fidel Castro, whose country Chavez kept afloat for years with so much free oil that the Cubans could export it.

He used one TV programme to attack the Queen over the Falklands, making a direct appeal to Buckingham Palace. ‘Look, England, how long are you going to be in Las Malvinas? Mrs Queen of England, I’m talking to you,’ he said. ‘The time for empires is over, haven’t you noticed?’
He described British control of the islands as ‘anti-historic and irrational’, and asked ‘why the English speak of democracy but still have a Queen’.
In one marathon four-day TV session, Chavez sent ten tank battalions as live entertainment to a tense border stand-off with Colombia.
The complete collapse in law and order in his country meant crime spiralled out of control, with an average 16,000 kidnappings and 18,000 murders a year, many related to a thriving trade in drugs.

The capital Caracas has a murder rate that dwarfs Baghdad and Kabul combined, and the country is one of the deadliest on the planet with 160,000 murders during his time as President — a four-fold increase on the period before he took office. But you will never hear this on state TV or radio, because they were, of course, Chavez controlled.


Political arrests have mushroomed and strict defamation and slander laws result in 30 months in jail for disrespecting a public official.
And this was the man who at international conferences or the UN had the gall to call George W. Bush a ‘sulphurous devil’ or Spain’s conservative Prime Minister ‘a Fascist’.
It would be farcical, but for the ruin that 13 years of misrule by Chavez has inflicted on a country with the world’s largest oil reserves outside the Middle East.

About $1 trillion of oil revenues have been squandered in an attempt to build what Chavez called ‘21st-century Socialism’. This regime has so much oil wealth it does not have to account for how it is spent.
Yet, there are chronic food shortages and the infrastructure is crumbling, with collapsing bridges and potholed roads. Electricity supply is erratic.
Nationalisation of hundreds of companies — sometimes live on TV — has resulted in a thriving black market. The environment has been ruined by reckless industrialisation. Tens of thousands of Venezuelans have sought a better life abroad.

Meanwhile, Chavez doled out Venezuelan oil on the cheap to fellow Left-wing regimes in Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua, not forgetting London — whose wide-eyed mayor Ken Livingstone wasted taxpayers’ money on visits to meet Chavez in Cuba and Venezuela.

The common denominator between Chavez and all those he supported, and who now worship him in death, is not a passionate belief in improving the lot of the poor through Socialism. It is an atavistic loathing of America and, by proxy, Britain.

Chavez blamed the U.S. as the hidden hand responsible for all the world’s ills. But no matter how crude his views of the Great Satan, they are widely shared among Britain’s bien-pensant circles, where the fatuous notion that the Americans ‘gave’ him cancer will soon join such canards as the CIA crashing planes into the World Trade Centre to provoke a war.
One can only speculate as to what post-Imperial resentment has inspired such irrational sentiments — and led such people to view a belligerent bully like Chavez as some sort of saint.

cavortingcheetah
7th Mar 2013, 06:30
Had Chávez not supported Julian Assange, had he allowed the USA to greater access in Venezuela, had he initiated a welcome home party for the émigres, had he hanged and shot a few and bastinadoed the rest then yes indeed, there might be more cause to mourn him more. But while is no cause for those outside Venezuela to pay his passing anything more than a passing churro those inside the country mourn him, in part, because he did not do those things above, or it least only in moderation, which is neither the South American nor the African norm.
As for those who rend the sackcloth and scatter the ashes at his divine moment; young Julius would mourn the passing of Hendrik Verwoerd if he thought it would move his leadership battle one step further forward in his attempts to get the drop on Zuma. Mugabe's paean of sorrow has perhaps more to do with oil shipments via Mozambique and the quality of the Cuban doctors from Venezuela who attend him than a true sorrow. In neither case are the saurian tears are of any consequence.
The dictator is dead!
Long live the dictator!

stuckgear
7th Mar 2013, 06:56
Typical leftie ploy..

not point the finger at Chavez (or any other leftie idol) and point it at the US instead.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

stuckgear
7th Mar 2013, 06:58
http://devilsexcrement.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/chavez-cartoon.jpg

http://www.toonpool.com/user/496/files/hugo_chavez_372375.jpg

http://mrslindinger.wikispaces.com/file/view/Hugo_Chavez.jpg/136386321/Hugo_Chavez.jpg

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/01/16/oil-cartoon-56-copy_5tD6m_20104.jpg

http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/caricatura_grande.jpg

and:

http://www.davegranlund.com/cartoons/wp-content/uploads/Color-Chavez-wins-again.jpg

cavortingcheetah
7th Mar 2013, 07:00
One fears that Ben Garrison, in attempting to denigrate Free Masonry, does not take kindly to the hijacking of his own cartoons in a scurrilous attempt to traduce another religion. It's a shame that Garrison appears not to comprehend the irony of political satire. While plagiarism is not to be tolerated in these days of modern cyber warfare it's a humorous turn of the screw for all that which allows the superimposition of Solomon on Jahbulon.

Capetonian
7th Mar 2013, 07:02
At some point in the future, Robert Mugabe will draw his last breath and the world will be rid of another evil dictator, arguably Africa's worst (there are other contenders).

Then all the fawning sycophants will be writing about the 'hero of the liberation who fought heroically to free the oppressed Rhodesian (or Zimbabwean) people from the yoke of colonial racist domination bringing freedom and democracy to the entire region ......

Even Peter Hain might crawl out from under his stone to shed a crocodile tear or two. Chavez by the way is a saint compared to Mugabe.

stuckgear
7th Mar 2013, 07:10
Indeed Captonian,

It seems that the rabid left with their failed ideologies seem to think that they can re-write fact with rhetoric and denial.

When Mugabe shucks off his mortal coil to join his buddies Kim Jong-Il, Ghadaffi, Hussein and of course Chavez, I will shed a tear..

I will shed a tear for all those that have their lives and futures scubbed out for one man's desire for ultimate power and control.

Solid Rust Twotter
7th Mar 2013, 07:44
Mugabe won't be missed for long. Zuma and Malema are waiting in the wings to continue the good work.

sitigeltfel
7th Mar 2013, 08:47
The Daily Telegraph has demoted Chavez to number two on its online obituary list while giving the top spot to an archaeologist. Oh the ignominy! :E

stuckgear
7th Mar 2013, 09:32
WTF are you going on about ME ?

Yes i will gladly take a dump on Mugabe's grave and weep for those who's lives and futures have cut short for dictators lust for power and control.

You weep for despots and dictators ?

Why don't you bugger off to N.Korea ? Oh you wont will you, because you enjoy the freedoms that democracy and a 'freeer' market provides.

Hypocrite.

stuckgear (brokenrecord)


Brilliant. Did you mange that all by yourself or have help from an idiot?

You could have tried 'Stuckrecord', 'Stuckneedle', or any of the usual epitaphs that are used by the rabid lefties that try to deride someone that doesn't spout or swallow 'hook line and sinker' the lefty ideological mantras.

Rail Engineer
7th Mar 2013, 09:35
Mike Echo
I know who you are now. :ok:

You're George Galloway under a non de plume !

Only someone with a very distorted viewpoint could suggest with any seriousness, as you do, that you are adopting the middle-ground. When pretty much every civilised Country in the World holds very similar but opposite views to yourself, this is a bit of a give-away that you are off the centre-line.

Your Political viewpoint appears to revolve around the fact that "the poor" were given some distribution of wealth. This is the case but only if you were a supporter of Chavez. Those who opposed his particular form of dictatorship did not enjoy such fortune.

I find it a somewhat amusing if not ironic, that those on the Left espouse exactly the sort of rights and freedoms that their own idols immediately remove and deny from those who have voted them into power.

When challenged about this, the Leftists usually retort by trying to compare Socialist/Communist regimes with the USA. The USA however is one for the few Countries in the world where freedom of speech in guaranteed within the Constitution, and whatever the rights and wrongs that you feel about the USA, it remains a Country where any citizen can challenge the Government and win, and those who are prepared to work hard can benefit from that and rise to the very top if they so wish.

Of course it could be exactly because that is the case that those on the Left wish to demonise the USA. ;)

No Socialist Country ever prospers economically in the long term as independence and innovation are stifled, and this lack of economic success is apparant in every single Country which has adopted or forced those systems upon the populace.

It is surely a hint to you, that with the likes of China and Russia developing a private sector and actively incouraging private initiative and investment the Socialist/Communist systems have been accepted to be the failures that they have so obviously been for the last 100 years or so.

Capetonian
7th Mar 2013, 09:53
Anyone who spent significant amounts of time, as I have, in 'Iron Curtain' countries both during and after communism cannot fail to see that communism/socialism (call it what you will, the differences are academic) is a proven recipe for disaster and human suffering.

Mike Echo, could you please come out in defence of so-called Marxist Robert Mugabe next, I'd love to hear your views on the economic miracles he has performed for his country and its people, and how he has led them into peace, prosperity, and democracy. The bastard is going to die soon, so you may as well have your diatribe of praise defending him ready for the day.

Perhaps before you go, you might to go and take a look at that country now, or North Korea, Cuba, Albania. I'm sure they would all welcome you with open arms as a new 'Comrade'.

chuks
7th Mar 2013, 11:31
Beware the power of the Great Satan! We gave El Hugo cancer, and next up are some London lefties, but it's only going to be dandruff for the one, and a very painful ingrown toe-nail for the other. That is due to budget cuts.

We still go around hating, but we just cannot afford the big C for everyone.

Rail Engineer
7th Mar 2013, 15:14
...Perhaps before you go, you might to go and take a look at that country nowGood idea but the only problem is that Mugabe does not want white people in his Country.

Years ago we would have called that Racism, and still would if applied in reverse, however because it is practiced by a Black rather than a White man it is perfectly OK according to the Left. You see in Left Wing idealogy only White people can be Racist, and only White people do wrong.

500N
7th Mar 2013, 15:20
"however because it is practiced by a Black rather than a White man it is perfectly OK according to the Left. You see in Left Wing idealogy only White people can be Racist, and only White people do wrong."

Come to Australia and see it being practised every day.

Aboriginals call white people "Whitey's" all the time
and then a whole load of derogatory terms for anyone
other than a Full blood black, unless they like them :O

cavortingcheetah
7th Mar 2013, 15:47
Easing slightly away from Genesis 9:21-27 for a moment, perhaps one should remember that Hugo was of Afro-Venezuelan ancestry. No doubt that, combined with his rather financially deprived upbringing, his Jewish antecedents and his family's confiscatory problems all helped to colour his mental stability which, under the travailing circumstances of his childhood and adolescence, seems to have been remarkably normal.

Matari
7th Mar 2013, 16:22
Pity then, that his ethnically-perfect and travail-filled upbringing led him to bring mostly misery to the poor and middle class. Anyone who really knows Venezuela knows this to be true.

Hugo's family and the generals who have taken over the expropriated companies have benefited immensely, which I'm sure pleases the ghost of Bolívar (and, of course, his Hollywood and European friends).

cavortingcheetah
7th Mar 2013, 16:58
Jon Lee Anderson, the American author of the definitive biography of Che Guevara has this to say:

A gaping hole for the millions of Venezuelans and other Latin Americans, mostly poor, who viewed him as a hero and a patron, someone who “cared” for them in a way that no political leader in Latin America in recent memory ever had. For them, now, there will be a despair and an anxiety that there really will be no one else like him to come along, not with as big a heart and as radical a spirit, for the foreseeable future. And they are probably right.

But it’s also Chávism that has not yet delivered. Chávez’s anointed successor, Maduro, will undoubtedly try to carry on the revolution, but the country’s untended economic and social ills are mounting, and it seems likely that, in the not so distant future, any Venezuelan despair about their leader’s loss will extend to the unfinished revolution he left behind.

This little epitaph snipped from somewhere else:


He created a personality cult, abolished term limits, curbed private media and put the armed forces, legislature, judiciary and state oil company, PDVSA, under his personal control. He turned a blind eye to Farc guerrilla camps near the Colombian border and hailed the likes of Mugabe, Gaddafi and Assad as brothers.

But the most damning critique of Chávez's rule concerned not democratic credentials but managerial competence.

After a decade of record oil revenues totalling around a trillion dollars, an unprecedented bounty, Venezuela is falling apart: roads crumbling, bridges falling, refineries exploding. A wheezing power grid produces regular blackouts. Public hospitals are dank, prisons filthy and barbaric. Murder and kidnapping rates have soared, imposing a de facto curfew in many cities. The currency was recently devalued for the fifth time in a decade. Many young professionals have emigrated.

The economy is warping from subsidies and controls. You can fill a car's petrol tank for around 50 cents but battle for months to start a company. High-rolling parasites nicknamed "boligarchs" exploit government links to siphon off billions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps quite a lot of what happens in the future might be dictated by the activities of those Venezuelans who have had to leave their country and might well be agitating for a government that would restore their riches and property.
One wonders whether Obama would care enough to become involved and authorise the next US covert action.

hellsbrink
7th Mar 2013, 17:30
But it’s also Chávism that has not yet delivered

How fitting.... :\

Lon More
7th Mar 2013, 17:34
The USA however is one for the few Countries in the world where freedom of speech in guaranteed within the Constitution,
One word - McCarthy.

cavortingcheetah
7th Mar 2013, 17:36
One more word:
Communism.

obgraham
7th Mar 2013, 18:31
One word - McCarthy. And other than shooting off his mouth in Senate committees and in front of television cameras, he inflicted long term harm just how?

Rail Engineer
7th Mar 2013, 19:29
he inflicted long term harm just how?Sorry chap but he wont be able to tell you.

Left Wingers brains are not wired up the same as normal peoples brains.

They are unable to rationalise or understand the irony of supporting a Political system that proposes and purports to offer its devotees the very rights and freedoms that the system immediately withdraws from them when the Leaders assume power.

No one of sound mind can defend a Political system that exists for the sole purpose of creating a sub-class that has to rely upon the very same oppressive regime for its very survival. For example all Socialist/Communist regimes impoverish people and prevent them from moving out of this poverty either by buying them off with state benefits, or by demonising and imprisoning anyone who tries to make their position in life better by initiative or ambition.

All Socialist/Communist systems become self-perpetuating and increasingly brutal yet those who look at them from outside and admire them do so by exercising the very rights that those they are looking at are denied. These same people then try to propogate these systems to others and in doing so enter into a massive form of self denial choosing instead to denigrate those who can see past the tissue of lies and disingenuity that they peddle.

pigboat
7th Mar 2013, 20:06
According to this writer, Chavez wasn't even that good a socialist.

Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's incompetent fake Socialist. (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/Hugo+Chavez+Venezuela+incompetent+fake+socialist/8057354/story.html)

It’s not that Hugo Ravael Chávez Frias, the strongman president of Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, now dead at 58, was a socialist. It’s that he was so spectacularly incompetent at pretending to be one that he could manage to make a catastrophe like that out of the world’s largest proven oil reserves (298 billion barrels), a tenfold hike in the market price of oil during his first decade in office (1999-2009) and the blind loyalty of millions of poor and illiterate Venezuelans.

500N
7th Mar 2013, 20:09
pigboat

That is very true !!!

brickhistory
7th Mar 2013, 21:22
One word - McCarthy.


Indeed.

http://redalertlive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Jenny_McCarthy_Playboy.jpg

con-pilot
7th Mar 2013, 22:17
This is one reason I love Jet Blast.

Only here can we go from the death of despot dictator, to a picture of a naked lady on the cover of 'Playboy' magazine in the same thread. :E

Ya got to love it. :ok:

Matari
7th Mar 2013, 23:47
Those of us who know brickhistory know that he spent many a cold and lonely night in the barren Dakotas, finger on the firing mechanism of a nuclear tipped missile. His mission: protect the free world from nefarious commies like Hugo.

What is lesser known, is that each silo control station had a single copy of the latest Playboy, secreted in a special safe, for use by the Airmen on watch. No, it was not for the reasons that you cads think, but for something much more important.

You see, the government knew that the Airmen needed to keep their observation skills at the highest levels, what with the red light liable to go off at any time and all.

So they put the Playboy there so the Airmen could find the top secret "Playboy Bunny" symbol which was hidden, somewhere, on every cover of Playboy.

Your mission, should you accept it, is to take the same challenge those Airmen did in the dark days of the cold war. Find the secret bunny logo...it is there, cause i saw it!:ok:

CityofFlight
8th Mar 2013, 00:34
I see it as well, Matari.






Gosh, those airmen must've spent all of 2 mins finding it! The rest of the time ready the worthy articles. :p ;)




But freedom of speech is the greatest reason for defense in the Dakota's.:ok:

KAG
8th Mar 2013, 00:58
Matari: don't make it sound so dramatic to hide the brickhistory blasphemy ;););)

More seriously: this new habit to put half naked women pics on JB is completely teenager childish. This kind of teenager who cannot get the nice girls in high school. Further more, WE ALL have access to those pics (and much more) within seconds on internet, don't you realize?

500N
8th Mar 2013, 01:02
Matari

Good one. :ok:


KAG
At least it breaks up the monotonous routine of threads :O

Matari
8th Mar 2013, 01:09
Sheesh, KAG, what's the French for 'buzzkill?'

KAG
8th Mar 2013, 01:12
Sheesh, KAG, what's the French for 'buzzkill?' Rabat-joie.

CityofFlight
8th Mar 2013, 01:27
Some have no levity when approaching subjects. How very droll. :zzz:

Matari
8th Mar 2013, 01:37
And who wanted to get the 'nice' girl in high school, anyway? :p

KAG
8th Mar 2013, 01:40
I thought the question was more like: who didn't ?

Matari
8th Mar 2013, 01:41
As we say down south: 'Bless your heart, KAG.'

KAG
8th Mar 2013, 01:53
Have a nice day Matari.

Anyway that's true: speaking about Chavez is depressing.

lomapaseo
8th Mar 2013, 02:09
Anyway that's true: speaking about Chavez is depressing.

Speaking of Chavez they now are preparing a bier for viewing in perpieuity


How'd that work out for Stalin? Are there still long lines for the citizens to view him ?

Dushan
8th Mar 2013, 02:33
Matari, I see them, erm, it..., the bunny, I mean I see it.

KAG, rejoice, another despot will come along so you can praise him. You almost have one back home, give him a few years.

Blacksheep
8th Mar 2013, 07:19
Speaking as the 1950's working class slum dog that I once was, I can say that the only times when I have advanced in prosperity and enjoyed a better life has been under what passes for a "right-wing" UK government. The socialists have consistently robbed me of my dignity. Yet my own class have continually lapped up the socialist dogma and voted for poverty. Sean Penn, Oliver Stone and their "Champagne Socialist" associates can praise him as much as they wish - and I do not deny that Hugo Chavez was popular with the his own [and others'] masses - but I have no doubt that the majority of those masses would be leading much better and more prosperous lives had his revolution failed.

sitigeltfel
8th Mar 2013, 07:27
Sean Penn, Oliver Stone and their "Champagne Socialist" associates can praise him as much as they wish

The most strident Socialists are those who can afford to be.

airship
8th Mar 2013, 13:32
Is it just me? Or do I detect a very strong element of simple jealousy or envy expressed by many here amongst us?

Apparently, 2 million people have already filed past his body (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-21709922) (unsure of how practical or accurate all that is...?).

Whatever, unless I'm much mistaken, there are no US Presidents, UK Prime Ministers, or any other Western politicians and leaders etc. etc. who've attracted similar devotion, in living memory. I guess that's what makes everyone here so grumpy about the adolation surrounding Chavez.

Above all, perhaps, it is wise to remember that probably millions do indeed feel great sadness at Chavez's passing and are now expressing it. Therein perhaps some clues to understanding some peoples of Venezuela, South / Latin America and farther afield. A great shame that more senior politicians and representatives of USA and other Western countries don't swallow their bile and attend the funeral therefore.

And long after everyone here in JB succombs eventually, our descendents (hopefully) will still be reading about Chavez ca. 2113. And of all the valuable contributions from JBers here in 2013, there will remain no trace... :sad:

Um... lifting...
8th Mar 2013, 14:01
Apparently, 2 million people have already filed past his body (unsure of how practical or accurate all that is...?).


No reason anyone can come up with to think that figure might be a bit high.

El Distrito Metropolitano de Caracas (Metropolitan District of Caracas) includes the Distrito Capital and four other municipalities in Miranda State: Chacao, Baruta, Sucre, and El Hatillo. The Distrito Capital had a population of 1,943,901 as of 2011,[1] while that of Distrito Metropolitano was estimated at 2,903,685 as of (2011).[2][3]

Lenin died January 21, 1924. Two days later architect Aleksey Shchusev was charged with building a structure suitable for viewing of the body by mourners. A wooden tomb, in Red Square by the Kremlin wall, was ready January 27, and later that day Lenin's coffin was placed in it. More than 100,000[citation needed] people visited the tomb in the next six weeks. By August 1924, Shchusev had replaced the tomb with a larger one, and Lenin's body transferred to a sarcophagus designed by architect Konstantin Melnikov.

Moscow's population in 1926 was a shade over 2 million.

How'd that work out for Stalin? Are there still long lines for the citizens to view him ?


Stalin apparently was sub-letting in Lenin's tomb. So, did anyone queue up for the tenant, or were they there to see the landlord?

stuckgear
8th Mar 2013, 14:22
Apparently, 2 million people have already filed past his bodyApparently, 2 million people have already filed past his body

and approximately 300,000 people have filed past the WHSmiths in Waterloo station today.

El Distrito Metropolitano de Caracas (Metropolitan District of Caracas) includes the Distrito Capital and four other municipalities in Miranda State: Chacao, Baruta, Sucre, and El Hatillo. The Distrito Capital had a population of 1,943,901

one would consider the postulation of 2m people filing past Chavez's rancid corpse a result of the Bureau of Bull$hitting..

of course, when it comes to propaganda from states with a heavily controlled media one has to take such statements with a dumper truck of salt.


like N.Korea's favourite mental midget.. Kim Jong Il

He Was Born Under A Double Rainbow
According to Kim Jong Il's official biography, he was born in a secret military camp on Baekdu Mountain during North Korea's Japanese occupation and his arrival was prophesised by a double rainbow and marked by the sight of a new star and a swallow in the sky. Unfortunately the truth appears to be more mundane - according to Soviet records, Kim was born in the Siberian village of Vyatskoye in 1941.

He Was The World's Greatest Sportsman
According to national media, in 1994 Kim Jong Il shot a record-breaking round of golf (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/from-fashion-icon-to-golf-pro-mind-boggling-facts-about-kim-jong-il/story-e6frf7lf-1226226100974) in which he achieved 11 holes-in-one, and a total score of 38 - by far the greatest score in history. And it was his first try, having never before played the game.

He Did Not Use Toilets - Because He Didn't Need To
According to an official biography posted on the North Korean state web site, that has since been removed, Kim Jong-il did not defecate.

He Considered Himself To Be An Internet Expert
North Korean citizens were not able to freely use mobile phones or the Internet, but Kim considered himself to be a communications expert. "I'm an Internet expert too," he told South Korea's president in 2007. "It's all right to wire the industrial zone only, but there are many problems if other regions of the North are wired."

He Invented Hamburgers
North Korean newspaper Minju Joson once reported that Kim Jong Il had invented something called the "double bread with meat" and created factories to produce them in order to feed his students and teachers. Given North Korea's anti-American stance it wasn't politic to admit they were in fact hamburgers.


Cynic... Moi ?

stuckgear
8th Mar 2013, 14:28
unless I'm much mistaken, there are no US Presidents, UK Prime Ministers, or any other Western politicians and leaders etc. etc. who've attracted similar devotion, in living memory. I guess that's what makes everyone here so grumpy about the adolation surrounding Chavez.

Above all, perhaps, it is wise to remember that probably millions do indeed feel great sadness at Chavez's passing and are now expressing it.


mmmmmmmm....
pSWN6Qj98Iw


A great shame that more senior politicians and representatives of USA and other Western countries don't swallow their bile and attend the funeral therefore.

perhaps more like it would be considered 'inappropriate' to take a dump on a coffin at a funeral.

brickhistory
8th Mar 2013, 14:28
don't make it sound so dramatic to hide the brickhistory blasphemy http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Objection!

A poster attempted to link the US' failings with the moldering Hugo's said one name made his point.

I simply agreed with him using the picture is worth 1,000 words approach.


Further more, WE ALL have access to those pics (and much more) within
seconds on internet, don't you realize?


There's porn on the internet?!

I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.

Uhhh...Bonjour...

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md1gel5UdO1qe1ey2.png

sitigeltfel
8th Mar 2013, 15:05
Whatever, unless I'm much mistaken, there are no US Presidents, UK Prime Ministers, or any other Western politicians and leaders etc. etc. who've attracted similar devotion, in living memory.Hundreds of thousands filed past the body of Winston Churchill and many more lined the streets for his funeral. Countless millions watched it on TV.

They did that of their own free will, not in front of the barrel of a gun.

stuckgear
8th Mar 2013, 15:15
unless I'm much mistaken, there are no US Presidents, UK Prime Ministers, or any other Western politicians and leaders etc. etc. who've attracted similar devotion, in living memory. I guess that's what makes everyone here so grumpy about the adolation surrounding Chavez.



Additional Point:


it would seem that in the majority it is dictatorships that garner so much 'grief' over the loss of the supreme leader. The opressed are propagandised to such an extent that they belive that life as they know it has come to an end with the guidance of one single person.

God forbid that ever, under a democratic state that we ever become so enthralled to a PM or President. In essence under democracy any PM or President is servant of the people not the other way around; they don't do their job, they get booted out on their ass. 'They' serve *US*, *WE* don not serve 'them'....

The very fact of public grief over the loss of an 'esteemed leader' is proof enough that it is a dictatorship and the leader is bigger than than the state or indeed the people; The person is above all laws that govern.

Under democracy, no one should be bigger than the state or it's people or above its laws and no 'leader' should ever be irreplacable, if they start to become so, then get rid of them.

of course, such concepts do not compute with the socialist mind.

stuckgear
8th Mar 2013, 15:20
Hundreds of thousands filed past the body of Winston Churchill and many more lined the streets for his funeral. Countless millions watched it on TV.

They did that of their own free will, not in front of the barrel of a gun.

And that was a decade after he left office serving as PM. 'Respect for' is not the same as 'fear of' or 'indoctrination of'.

Milo Minderbinder
8th Mar 2013, 16:08
If two million people have passed by his body, its probably so they can piss on his body. Spiritually if not physically.

con-pilot
8th Mar 2013, 16:32
Whatever, unless I'm much mistaken, there are no US Presidents, UK Prime Ministers, or any other Western politicians and leaders etc. etc. who've attracted similar devotion, in living memory. I guess that's what makes everyone here so grumpy about the adolation surrounding Chavez.


Dead wrong, as usual. Given I don't know what your definition of living memory is, but when President Roosevelt died and President Kennedy was assassinated, there was a huge out pouring of public sadness and devotion by the American public.

Also, Roosevelt and Kennedy were not despot dictators that destroyed the economy of their country.

But your tendency of putting despot dictators on some kind of pedestal is noted. After all, it's a free world, well except in the countries of leaders that you admire so much. Not so free in those countries.

Capetonian
8th Mar 2013, 16:39
They probably want to make sure the murdering thieving bastard really is dead, and I'm sure in their minds they're spitting on him.

cavortingcheetah
8th Mar 2013, 17:07
Grief management from the team that embalmed Kennedy?

Home - Joseph Gawler's Sons, LLC (http://www.dignitymemorial.com/joseph-gawlers-sons/en-us/index.page)

And the diggers of dignity that had the honour of doing this Democrat?

http://www.hmpatterson-funeral.com/dm20/en_US/group/business/hmpattersonfuneral/index.page

Rail Engineer
8th Mar 2013, 18:53
Sean Penn, Oliver Stone and their "Champagne Socialist" associates can praise him as much as they wish The most strident Socialists are those who can afford to be.And of course they never live under the Regimes they so vociferously support and laud. I wonder why that should be ??

dropithideitloseit
8th Mar 2013, 19:03
Yeah, despot dictator. He was elected... pure and simple. More than you can say for Shrub.

sled dog
8th Mar 2013, 19:25
My last, and greatly missed, Siberian Husky dog was called Chavez.........

Mike X
8th Mar 2013, 19:33
And of course they never live under the Regimes they so vociferously support and laud. I wonder why that should be ??

Originally Posted by Sitigeltfel
The most strident Socialists are those who can afford to be.

There's your answer, RE. :eek:

airship
8th Mar 2013, 20:43
con-pilot wrote: Also, Roosevelt and Kennedy were not despot dictators that destroyed the economy of their country

Oh Reilly (only because you've made it known elsewhere on JB that you intended visiting God's own country soon)...

Forgive me, but I reckon that both your "houses" are full of elected representatives who still blame the Republicans's current problems as originating from Roosevelt and/or a Kennedy.

The problem with the 21st Century is that those who should know better, just don't know when it's better to just shut-up. Instead, opening their gobs, spouting forth whatever thoughts that their little minds allow them.

Knowing that someone else, well down the line, takes the full impact of their simplistic and ill-thought out responses. As always.

brickhistory
8th Mar 2013, 21:22
physician, heal thyself...

con-pilot
8th Mar 2013, 23:56
The problem with the 21st Century is that those who should know better, just don't know when it's better to just shut-up. Instead, opening their gobs, spouting forth whatever thoughts that their little minds allow them.



Could not have described you better than you have yourself. :=

Well said old boy! :ok:

Dushan
9th Mar 2013, 00:42
Whatever, unless I'm much mistaken, there are no US Presidents, UK Prime Ministers, or any other Western politicians and leaders etc. etc. who've attracted similar devotion, in living memory. contributions from JBers here in 2013, there will remain no trace... :sad:

Airship, I don't know how old you are or what you consider "in living memory" but I can vividly remember waiting several hours on a cold November evening, in a lineup in front of US Embassy, to sign a book of condolences. I was 11 years old and nobody made me. I was there with my parents and in 1963 this was not the most "appropriate" thing to do in Eastern Europe, yet thousands of people were doing it. Top that with your socialist buddy.

galaxy flyer
9th Mar 2013, 01:22
We had a German Luftwaffe reservist doing an exchange tour at our base when Ronald Reagan died. He was at the Pentagon when Reagan's body was laying in state. He waited in line for several hours, in the rain, to visit. We, Reservists, were mildly surprised at this; he explained, "tear down this wall, Mr. Gorbachev" really means something to me.

GF

KAG
9th Mar 2013, 02:09
In general terms I am wary of idolatry, the less the best.
Keep mourning for your own familly, they deserve it.

Mk 1
9th Mar 2013, 07:47
When Chavez arrived he probably was the best thing since sliced bread, and his people loved him for it. Oil went gangbusters, he could afford to do all of those things that masses of oil revenue enable you to do (welfare, health etc for the under privileged).

But, as so frequently seems to happen, because they appoint sycophants to important positions of state, and 'policy' comes via the off the cuff remark, the economy starts to go off the rails. Then the media start to question some of the bizarre policy decisions - suddenly the media is gagged, intimidated, gaoled or murdered. Censorship then becomes a reality.

Suddenly the human rights record of the great reformer is looking suspect and the populace knows that they have made a mistake. The population still enjoys a better (often subsidised) way of life which is laudible, but as the economic mismanagement gets worse things get tougher. At this point the great leader needs an enemy to ensure try to deflect public scrutiny - so we see in this case America and her lackeys.

Perhaps the reason that supposedly '2 million' had viewed the body is because the media is controlled to the extent that the vast majority don't know about the lies, corruption personal pork barreling (on an internal and bank account related basis). Will a western political leader ever be so lauded? Probably not as they are subject to the full public glare of the media etc. I'm guessing if you stood on a street corner in VZ and tried to point out the corruption etc you would swiftly be taken awayby the police never to be heard from again.

I have no problems with people being paid in public office but seriously - 2 billion dollars? Our PM (a first world country remember with a far higher per capita tax base) gets paid around $495,430 with her housing, car and err plane all part of the package (so to speak). Assuming our great reformer - our man of the people Hugo would not take a higher salary than one of the imperialist running dog prime ministers he loathes, then he must be an absolute genius to have amassed a $2Bn fortune from scratch. How do you invest that well? Does Warren Buffet have something to learn from Hugo? Or the man is a thief of more than just oxygen.

To all the champagne socialists, suck it up princesses. He was a dangerously destabilising influence, who thieved land, businesses and money and bought his people's affection by supplying what every government should have done in the past and the future.

What a pity he is gone. Next?

Capetonian
9th Mar 2013, 07:55
One could apply the above posting almost word for word to Mugabe. When he came to power, even a lot of whites thought he was hope for the future. He turned out to be one of the most evil and despotic leaders the world has ever seen. Chavez was not far behind. Good riddance. Me cago en tu puta madre.

unstable load
9th Mar 2013, 07:57
They probably want to make sure the murdering thieving bastard really is dead, and I'm sure in their minds they're spitting on him.
Got it in one, there....:D

Solid Rust Twotter
9th Mar 2013, 17:49
Seriously?

Reality...?



You've been drinking Toilet Duck again, haven't you?:}

stuckgear
11th Mar 2013, 00:06
Yeah, despot dictator. He was elected... pure and simple. More than you can say for Shrub.

So what you are saying is that due to democrat administration (Clinton) a man was able to circumvent democratic process, and that due a republican administration (Bush) democracy was restored and then barry was voted in.

So your precept is either bull or you are actually saying the republicans enact democracy and Democrats do not. Or did barry do the same as bush to get his boots on the desk?

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 05:23
Yeah, despot dictator. He was elected... pure and simple. More than you can say for Shrub.

I guess Brasso is on a 3fer2 sale where you are

Cacophonix
11th Mar 2013, 05:32
3fer2 sale

Keeps the spirit shining from within! ;)

Chavez, a divisive character... loved and hated in equal measure. Real question for Venezuela is what happens now?

Caco

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 05:37
Keeps the spirit shining from within!

And you can tell the world that there is a way to polish a turd....




As far as Venezuela goes, I'm expecting the military to install a sock puppet as "Dear Leader" to keep things as they are. You won't see an outbreak of democracy there, some people have too much to lose.

stuckgear
11th Mar 2013, 09:14
As far as Venezuela goes, I'm expecting the military to install a sock puppet as "Dear Leader" to keep things as they are. You won't see an outbreak of democracy there, some people have too much to lose

probably under the guise that its a necessity, due to the threat from outside.

airship
11th Mar 2013, 16:16
There are at least 3 of us here who are familiar with Brasso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasso): hellsbrink, caco and myself: Brasso is a metal polish designed to remove tarnish from brass, copper, chrome and stainless steel. It is available either directly as a liquid or as an impregnated wadding pad. At least 2 of us here are using Brasso to disguise their own tarnished and standard "off the cuff" replies, lack of effort and imagination, of whom most of us are also becoming tired of reading in similar threads. :sad:

con-pilot wrote: ...Given I don't know what your definition of living memory is, but when President Roosevelt died and President Kennedy was assassinated, there was a huge out pouring of public sadness and devotion by the American public. So, JFK was indeed assassinated? By Chavez perhaps?! Or have you completely given up finding the real culprit/s, preferring to post poisonous comments here in JB as cheaper alternative to finding solutions at home?

I'm also confused by all the various accusations that dropithideitloseit attempted to address regarding Chavez as a "despot dictator"...?! Personally, I always thought that most International commentators considered Chavez as having been elected (and even being re-elected) quite democratically and correctly insofar as this term applies ca. 2013.

Do con-pilot et al have a problem with "despot dictators" or merely "despot dictators" which their own governments have not put in place...?!

And please don't start me off on USA redistricting and gerrymandering of election boundaries. Or that the UK Conservatives' greatest benefactor over several years was an UK tax-exile who held most of his assets offshore and untaxed by the UK.

You easily call me (and cheaply) as being a socialist (without knowing what that means in any real terms), apart from the most simplistic. Being called a socialist doesn't embarass me (here in Europe). In the USA, you have Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare and almost countless numbers of other programs. You, your parents or children depend on all these to a great extent, if only to ensure that you're not smothered by beggars at the next red-light.

I don't know or really very much care about Chavez (Venezuela is a long way away and I have more pressing concerns closer to home maybe), but the point as I attempted to make before, is that many millions hold him dear and close to their hearts. That should be enough "warning" to you before simply attacking Chavez' corpse like a flock of vultures or pack of hungry hyenas (no offence intended to real vultures and hyenas, as always)...?!

I post here, because I have something to say. I think many others do too. But too many (even the majority) only rubbish everything. :sad:

chuks
11th Mar 2013, 16:47
Well, I wouldn't accuse anyone of lack of imagination with this one!

Yes, I agree with airslip!

I think it is perfectly obvious that Con-pilot was trying to hint, darkly, that Hugo Chavez was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. He was eight years old by then, your Hugo, and he had the time, the motive and the opportunity to do this terrible thing, when so many agree that poor old Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy who had been framed. Just connect the dots, for heaven's sake! JFK had been annoying Fidel, and Hugo and Fidel had been bezzers since practically forever, so what would it have taken for Fidel to slip a word into Hugo's shell-like, "¿Hugo, quieres ayudarme, mi querido amigo bolivarianissimo? Call that "sorted" I think.

Chávez might have been elected, but he did seem then to arrange things to suit, Venezuelan constitution-wise, so that dictatorial despot, despot dictator, despotic dictator... whatever: they all fit!

Look, the guy was just a fat, socialist jerk! Check out the fashion sense, as if that were not enough right there to mark him down for a bad guy, not so much a Chavista as a chav, QED! Cuddled up to dictators, now gets himself mourned by George Galloway... definitely, we need to be told more about his role in the Kennedy assassination.

airship
11th Mar 2013, 17:10
chuks wrote: Check out the fashion sense.

As many others here have often pleaded, "this thread is no good without photos" chuks, you did write: Look, the guy was just a fat, socialist jerk!

We're all waiting for your demeaning photos of Chavez, together with your own photos of a fat, (to be advised) jerk! from your own personal album/s. :ok:

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 17:21
At least 2 of us here are using Brasso to disguise their own tarnished and standard "off the cuff" replies, lack of effort and imagination, of whom most of us are also becoming tired of reading in similar threads.

Well, that would explain why you suddenly tried to link JFK's assassination and Chavez whilst ignoring the point C-P was making and it would also explain why you seem to believe that the last election in Venezuela was "democratic" and "correct" when even the slightest morsel of knowledge will tell you that there are far more people out there saying "fraud" than there are saying "correct". It would also explain why you claim that "many millions hold him dear and close to their hearts" whilst saying that you don't know much about Venezuela and Chavez, and why you decided to have a go at the USA and UK for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

In other words, try sticking to things that are factual instead of delusion, and since the reason for the comment to our other friend, the one who has actually tried to say that Chavez was elected "fairly" and "Shrub" (which Bush did he mean, btw, Snr or Jr?) wasn't despite there being more than enough out there to put that lie to bed once and for all, is clear as far as his post goes, methinks it is pretty damn clear why such posts, like your own one above, are "rubbished".

Lonewolf_50
11th Mar 2013, 17:29
Yeah, despot dictator. He was elected... pure and simple. More than you can say for Shrub.
Looks like we have a fool on board. You might want to check the election system of the US, and the election results of 2000. As per previous elections, electoral votes for "Shrub" exceeded that of his opponent. You will also find that that was the THIRD TIME IN US ELECTION HISTORY that the electoral and popular votes didn't match.

You ought to keep your mouth shut when you don't know WTF you are talking about.

Lonewolf_50
11th Mar 2013, 17:33
Chavez, a divisive character... loved and hated in equal measure. Real question for Venezuela is what happens now
Indeed. My prediction is: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

con-pilot
11th Mar 2013, 17:39
So, JFK was indeed assassinated? By Chavez perhaps?! Or have you completely given up finding the real culprit/s, preferring to post poisonous comments here in JB as cheaper alternative to finding solutions at home?


As Chuks pointed out, that would be neat trick by an eight (8) year old. But then getting facts correct has never been your priority any way.

I'm also confused by all the various accusations that dropithideitloseit attempted to address regarding Chavez as a "despot dictator"...?! Personally, I always thought that most International commentators considered Chavez as having been elected (and even being re-elected) quite democratically and correctly insofar as this term applies ca. 2013.

Not real sure I am the subject of this post or not. Never the less, that is exactly what Chavez was, he squandered his nation's money, becoming a billionaire in the process. As for being reelected twice, despite the Venezuelan Constitution clearing stating that one could only be elected as President only two times, by changing the Constitution and having the country's media under his personal control, not to mention having most of his opposition either arrested or thrown out of the country. So yes, he qualifies as a 100% pure despot dictator.

Do con-pilot et al have a problem with "despot dictators" or merely "despot dictators" which their own governments have not put in place...?!


I have problems with any despot dictator. Obviously you do not when they fit your political view point, such as Chavez.

And please don't start me off on USA redistricting and gerrymandering of election boundaries. Or that the UK Conservatives' greatest benefactor over several years was an UK tax-exile who held most of his assets offshore and untaxed by the UK.



Cannot speak for the UK, but here in the US, both parties Gerrymander. But only when the Republicans Gerrymander do people like you get upset.

You easily call me (and cheaply) as being a socialist (without knowing what that means in any real terms), apart from the most simplistic. Being called a socialist doesn't embarass me (here in Europe). In the USA, you have Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare and almost countless numbers of other programs. You, your parents or children depend on all these to a great extent, if only to ensure that you're not smothered by beggars at the next red-light.


You want to find a post where I called you a Socialist? I may have, but I do not remember such. As for Socialism versus Capitalism, that is for another thread. By the way, who pays your salary, the government or a corporation for profit?


Now this one I love the best.

I don't know or really very much care about Chavez (Venezuela is a long way away and I have more pressing concerns closer to home maybe), but the point as I attempted to make before, is that many millions hold him dear and close to their hearts. That should be enough "warning" to you before simply attacking Chavez' corpse like a flock of vultures or pack of hungry hyenas (no offence intended to real vultures and hyenas, as always)...?!


I don't know or really very much care about Chavez

But yet here you are defending him with great vigor and insulting those that dare do criticize him. If you don't know that much about him, how is it you defend him so much?

That should be enough "warning" to you before simply attacking Chavez' corpse like a flock of vultures or pack of hungry hyenas

Did it ever occur to you that we who are and did criticize Chavez know a hell of a lot more about him and Venezuela than you do?

Today in Venezuela there is no food or milk in the stores, has not been for years, inflation is rampant, the middle class is gone, electricity is rationed with blackouts and brownouts an every day occurrence. The government is broke and the Chavez family is worth billions.

So with the above taken into consideration, Chavez most definitely qualifies as a Despot Dictator who has milked his country dry, while becoming very, very wealthy, along with his friends that are very high in the government.

con-pilot
11th Mar 2013, 18:09
The proof is in the pudding, Chavez is a ******* hero to most of his people. Judge world leaders like that if you want the truth.

Kim Jong-un is an overwhelmingly popular hero to the people of North Korea.

hellsbrink
11th Mar 2013, 18:19
Plenty reports out there showing polls which had Chavez at under 50% popularity, including one that stated more would vote against him than for him had an election been held at that time in 2011, and reports from before the election last year stating that Chavez's popularity rating had fallen below 50% in the runup up to the election.


Hardly a "******* hero to most of his people", for it was clear that "most" of the people were getting sick of the rising crime, the backhanders, the corruption, the power failures, the lack of basic foodstuffs, etc.

But don't let mere facts get in the way of things, Mike.


Oh, C-P

Don't forget Lukashenko in Belarus, or Putin, or Mugabe......... You know, the sort of "benevolent rulers" who tell their people who they should "like" (or else)..........

stuckgear
11th Mar 2013, 18:21
stuckgear, I'm returning to this thread a bit late but wanted to ask if you really are that dumb in


Oh, go back and play with yourself in the corner and come back when you can have discussion without personal insults little socialist..

You know, it gets rather boring when the likes of you and your socialist rabble can't respond to questions or enter into discussion without personal attacks. Or perhaps it's just the insecurities that your ideologies fail.. again.. and again.. and again.. and again.. and again..


Play the ball, not the player is probably an difficult concept to understand eh.

The proof is in the pudding, Chavez is a ******* hero to most of his people. Judge world leaders like that if you want the truth.

The 'woosh' is not the sound of chemtrails being sprayed over your head.. con pilot has already pointed that out for you..

airship
11th Mar 2013, 18:50
con-pilot wrote: Never the less, that is exactly what Chavez was, he squandered his nation's money, becoming a billionaire in the process. That's interesting. I wonder just how many hundreds of millions ended up in Delaware corporations? Which in their turn ended up in other offshore tax-havens perhaps closer to home (in the Caribbean) that is? You seem to know a lot about it all.

At least we're not talking about the Marcos' billions (very democratic and US sponsored "strongman/woman" democracy 100% USA approved to this day).

All I can say at this point is that I hope Chavez' inheritors will be able to recover at least a fraction of all those hundreds of millions (not quite a billion apparently according to you) which he managed to squirrel away somewhere. And hopefully it wasn't put away in Switzerland? We all know how the Swiss treat the losers... :ok:

Capetonian
11th Mar 2013, 18:54
That these despots are 'loved and revered by their people' is reported by whom?

The state media? And the state media are controlled by whom?

Ozzy
11th Mar 2013, 19:00
Chavez dead = result

Ozzy

airship
11th Mar 2013, 19:09
Capetonian wrote: That these despots are 'loved and revered by their people' is reported by whom?

The BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-21737742) perhaps...?! Or even the extremely left-wing BBC here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-21683082) Sorry, but I only watch Sky News late at night when they have their discussion on the next day's newspapers. Never heard of Fox...

Capetonian
11th Mar 2013, 19:23
The Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation, not exactly known for its right wing slant, is only reporting what the media of VZ has reported. Don't try to put your own slant on things even if the view from the ramparts is a little clouded.

airship
11th Mar 2013, 19:53
Today in Detroit there is no food or milk in the stores, (there are no more stores), have not been for years, inflation is rampant, the middle class is gone, electricity is rationed with blackouts and brownouts an every day occurrence. The government is broke and the Bush family is worth billions.

Might have been con-pilot who wrote something very similar earlier. And Chavez distributed cheap oil to US families (that was years before the USA discovered cheap gas, the same gas which has become so plentiful that it costs more to produce than the entrepreneurs obtain from selling it to consumers today)...

WAKE UP?! With gas prices 1/4 of what they are say in Europe, US producers still can't make a profit...?! :ugh: Way to go capitalism?! US gas producers might consider exporting instead. But guess what?! There are some port facilities in USA to convert imported LNG, but none to convert domestic gas into LNG for export.

Yeah, for sure, blame it all on Chavez. :(

con-pilot
11th Mar 2013, 20:02
That's interesting. I wonder just how many hundreds of millions ended up in Delaware corporations?

What difference does it make just where it ended up, it still belongs to the Chavez family and was stolen by Uncle Hugo. So if Uncle Huge did park part of the billions of dollars he stole from the Venezuelan people in some Delaware Corporations, that just makes what he did, all that worse.

At least we're not talking about the Marcos' billions

First off, Uncle Hugo was not in power as long as Marco and I'm sure he would have exceeded Marco's billions, if in fact that figure is accurate, if he had been in power long enough.

Secondly, two billion is more than one billion and therefore qualifies as "billions". So along with Marco, he stole billions of dollars from his country. With you cheering him on.

stuckgear
11th Mar 2013, 20:13
The Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation, not exactly known for its right wing slant,


the BBC left wing... never..oh hang on..

Thursday, February 14, 2013

Former Labour culture secretary James Purnell has been appointed as director of strategy and digital at the BBC.

stuckgear
11th Mar 2013, 20:15
for sure, blame it all on Chavez

well for the current state of affairs in Venez.. who else.. Thatcher maybe?

:ugh::ugh:

con-pilot
11th Mar 2013, 20:21
Today in Detroit there is no food or milk in the stores, (there are no more stores), have not been for years

Might have been con-pilot who wrote something very similar earlier

Yes, and you can thank the Democratic Party and the Unions for that. As they like you, admire Socialists, that makes whatever point you were trying to make, rather mute.

WAKE UP?! With gas prices 1/4 of what they are say in Europe, US producers still can't make a profit...

Jesus Christ, just where in the hell did you get that from? Oil companies in the US (producers as you call them) are making very nice profits. So much profit in fact, people like you (Democratic Party) want to increase the taxes on oil companies.

Of all the utter nonsense you have ever posted here, this takes the cake. You cannot be more wrong.

US gas producers might consider exporting instead.

We do. We ship refined gasoline (petro) and Diesel fuel to Venezuela. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Yeah, for sure, blame it all on Chavez

For what exactly? That US oil and natural gas companies are making good profits, that some like you call obscene profits? The only reason that the US imports a single cubit foot of natural gas, is political. We have enough proven natural gas reserves in the US to last the US for one hundred years, if not more.

In fact, the US now leads the world in Natural Gas reserves. Which even taking in the low price of natural gas into consideration, we still make profits on.

On this subject, you've not a clue on what you are going on about.

Chavez stole billions of dollars from his country and has bankrupt the country in the process. And nothing you can post can change that.

brickhistory
11th Mar 2013, 20:41
Currently, I am watching two unofficial science experiments and waiting for another to experience adulthood.

Of the two experiments, it is simply astounding to see what the human liver can endure.

Turbine D
11th Mar 2013, 21:01
Hey Con,
where in the hell did you get that from? Oil companies in the US (producers as you call them) are making very nice profits.
Is this because the "Oil companies" sold off their refineries? If the "Keystone Pipeline" was up and operating today, delivering crude oil to the US deep South, where would the oil be going from there?

According to today's WSJ:
"We have some of the highest oil supplies ever," said Stephen Schork, president of the trading advisory firm Schork Group. "We're practically swimming in oil." US oil supplies are up 6% since the start of 2013 and remain well above the five-year average level for this time of the year.

The law of Supply v Demand:
Oil supply up 6% - Oil Price down 6.1%*
* Does not apply to gasoline as prices continue upward...:{

TD

Dushan
11th Mar 2013, 21:21
... that Hugo Chavez was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. He was eight years old by then, your Hugo, and he had the time, the motive and the opportunity to do this terrible thing, when so many agree that poor old Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy who had been framed. Just connect the dots, for heaven's sake! JFK had been annoying Fidel, and Hugo and Fidel had been bezzers since practically forever, so what would it have taken for Fidel to slip a word into Hugo's shell-like, "¿Hugo, quieres ayudarme, mi querido amigo bolivarianissimo? Call that "sorted" I think.



So that explains while we never saw anyone behind the grassy knoll. It is because he was short, at 8 years old, so easy to slip away.

chuks
11th Mar 2013, 21:26
Airship, I seem to fresh out of downloadable, uplinkable, SFW piccies of a fat, socialist jerk with poor dress sense, as per your request.

Be a doll and put one of yours up until I can find one of my own.

Who knows? You might end up as Germany's next supermodel that way. I am pretty sure that Heidi Klum reads JetBlast.

con-pilot
11th Mar 2013, 22:46
Turbine D

Don't kid yourself, even little mom and pop oil companies, which we have a lot of around here, are still making very nice profits, along with the 'evil' big oil companies.

Now some have put off buying G-550s or 650s and are managing to live with their Falcon 2000s, Falcon 900s and 50s, not to mention a whole pot full of similar corporate aircraft, due to the lower price, but they are still doing well.

One true indicator of how well the oil/gas industries is doing is to look at the fleet of corporate aircraft they own and operate. That fleet is doing fine at the moment.

In fact our profits from our lease proprieties are still doing pretty well, despite the low price of natural gas.

AlpineSkier
11th Mar 2013, 23:27
In fact our profits from our lease proprieties are still doing pretty well, despite the low price of natural gas

In that case con, I reckon you should go for the 24 hour full-livery chauffeur option when you visit Oirland - to hell with driving yourself !

The optional G.I. ( aka Fed ) package includes 10 x 1 lb packets of toffees to throw to the local urchins ;)

con-pilot
11th Mar 2013, 23:42
In that case con, I reckon you should go for the 24 hour full-livery chauffeur option when you visit Oirland - to hell with driving yourself !


If natural gas was still over $10.00 USD a thousand cubit foot, we'd be doing just that. :p


But at $3.35 a thousand cubit feet, we have to drive ourselves. :(

Sometimes life just ain't fair. :{





But, we get by. :ok:

stuckgear
11th Mar 2013, 23:55
awww heck con.. i can set you up with a nice valsan 72 as a stop gap if you like and i'm sure as a part 91 op you've got requisite time on type. of course, a dictator wouldn't be seen in anything so 'down market', but heck your a republican, so i can arrange a cockpit dump valve control for the blue water (STC to stuckgear industries) when overflying certain areas ;)

Cacophonix
11th Mar 2013, 23:56
When a man or a woman dies (whoever they are) I am sad. The infinite opportunities offered to us by life wrenched away for good or for bad.

"What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so."

Caco

AlpineSkier
12th Mar 2013, 00:03
Caco

That's very, very good . How long did it take you to compose a piece of such insight ?

And there was me thinking you were a mono-dimensional video-linker ;)

Cacophonix
12th Mar 2013, 00:07
Alpine I am reasonably well read and was once deported from Switzerland for which fact I am proud. ;)


Caco

G-CPTN
12th Mar 2013, 00:09
How long did it take you to compose a piece of such insight ?

From:- Shakespeare, the tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark.

Turbine D
12th Mar 2013, 00:30
Con,
Now some have put off buying G-550s or 650s and are managing to live with their Falcon 2000s, Falcon 900s and 50s, not to mention a whole pot full of similar corporate aircraft, due to the lower price, but they are still doing well.
Now Texas is big and next to Oklahoma which is somewhat smaller, but neither support G-550s or 650s unless one is drilling in Mongolia or Kazakhstan, but should the price of oil jump and gasoline continues to rise, I will clearly know why.:D:ok:

con-pilot
12th Mar 2013, 02:45
Believe it or not, oil production companies, such as big oil, really do not benefit all that much from high pump prices, unless they own the gas/petrol stations, which most do not.

They are paid the well head price, which is mostly set by OPEC and if they own a piece of the pipeline, a little more. And as you posted, most have sold their interest in refineries.

As for the uber high price of gasoline/petrol that airship alluded to in the UK and Europe, the actual price of gasoline/petrol is about the same as is in the US. It is the extremely high taxes on a unit of gasoline/petrol that is charged by the respective governments, which makes it so damn expensive, not greedy oil companies. Which is just more proof that airship has not a clue as to what he is talking about.

Now, if you want to debate the pros and cons of corporate aircraft ownership, we need to start a separate thread on that subject.

Matari
12th Mar 2013, 02:53
My buddy in Brazil said that when he went to university there, the government would alternately tax alcohol and cane fuel (form of ethanol for cars). Depending on which was more expensive, they would either stay home and drink the petrol or drive around and drink the alcohol.

Something I think airship would find pretty convenient.

stuckgear
12th Mar 2013, 09:59
oil production companies, such as big oil, really do not benefit all that much from high pump prices, unless they own the gas/petrol stations, which most do not.

They are paid the well head price, which is mostly set by OPEC and if they own a piece of the pipeline, a little more. And as you posted, most have sold their interest in refineries.



and to add on to that Con, the oft cited claim of 'big oil' exploiting otehr countries resources is also bullcrap.

most countries require that any foreign oil company is in JV with the state owned oil company (or a native oil co, but they are usually state owned in many of these tin-pot countries)

the JV requires that the foreign company provides the investment and expertise (ie the E&P costs) for which it gets it return off the profits from the JV.. the state oil company (and the state) basically gets someone else putting up the costs and the lions share of the profits for the government officials to spend on private aircraft, yachts, offshore property.

of course, socialists don't like to know this.

Andy_S
12th Mar 2013, 11:20
Thinking of state owned oil companies, it’s funny how apologists for Hugo Chavez seem to have forgotten how this champion of the poor and downtrodden actually sacked 18,000 of his own employees from Venezuelan national oil company PDVSA. Their crime? They went on strike……

BBC NEWS | Americas | Storm over Venezuela oil speech (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6114682.stm)

Personally I would have thought that a passionate advocate of international socialism such as Hugo Chavez would have thoroughly approved of the workers throwing off their chains and rising up against their masters. Hang on though – he and his supporters were the masters. Oh well, that changes everything. The workers were clearly ‘counter revolutionaries’ who deserved their punishment.

Meanwhile, PDVSA are able to underwrite Pastor Maldonado’s career as a Formula 1 driver to the tune of some £30 million.

Isn’t Socialism a wonderfully pragmatic ideology!

Rail Engineer
12th Mar 2013, 12:12
If Socialism was a person, that person would be a sick, paranoid-schizophrenic, psychopath.

The Left are utterly convinced that Socialism is the answer to all ills and refuse to acceopt that this may not be the case. Their solution to the apparant failures of Socialism is to prescribe more of it.

A bit like a Doctor increasing the dosage of the medicine that is slowly killing the patient because it is not producing a recovery !

The Left never accept any criticism or blame, and because their policies are so easily proven to cause more harm than good are very adept at either turning the argument into a full blown personal attack on their opponents, or turning the debate into a different direction.

In power they are totally ruthless and will destroy and remove anyone who opposes their own particular version of their ideaology. All Socialist and Communist Governments quickly come around to manipulating and controlling the Press and Media, so that unfavourable news or coverage affecting the regime can be downplayed or ignored, whilst any affecting their opponents are turned into major stories and repeated time and time again. In most cases this is achieved by the manipulation of history by Teachers who see themselves as class warriors rather then a group who should teach in a balanced way such that they allow children to develop their own Political beliefs based upon true fact and personal qualities rather than hyperbole.

Evidence of this can be seen in children who demonise Mrs Thatcher even though she was out of power before they were born. Indeed some on her eeven proudly proclaim their intention to dance and celebrate when she dies even though they have absolutely no clue as to what actually happene d during her reigh, but simply regurgitate the same tired old Leftist lies, disingenuities and distorted facts.

Another trait of the Left is to parrot the same tired old lies, disingenuities and distortions of fact because like it or not, a lie repeated ofter enough eventually becomes accepted fact.

A perfect example is that of Ed Balls who now claims to have had nothing to do with the economy during the years of Labour mismanagement even though he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury and even though there is plentry of evidence then and now to demonstrate that he was a key figure in all that took place. Again a case of someone who is happy to blatantly lie and twist the facts against evidence to the contrary. Unfortunately that strategy appears to be working amongs the underclass whose survial depends upon being enslaved by Government handouts.

This was something that Stalin was good at and which was perfected by National Socilaist Party of Germany (Nazis). They followed a Left wing ideaology yet the Left have managed to paint them as Right Wing.

Rail Engineer
12th Mar 2013, 13:00
MIkeEcho
Your post simply emphasises the point that was made.

It does nothing to counter the previous post, it only goes to strengthen its impact.

Rather a case of discharging the weapon into one's foot I think.

airship
12th Mar 2013, 13:00
con-pilot wrote: As for the uber high price of gasoline/petrol that airship alluded to in the UK and Europe, the actual price of gasoline/petrol is about the same as is in the US. It is the extremely high taxes on a unit of gasoline/petrol that is charged by the respective governments, which makes it so damn expensive, not greedy oil companies. Which is just more proof that airship has not a clue as to what he is talking about.

I did write "gas" didn't I? Should have known better. You say (phonetic spelling) toe-may-toe, we say toe-ma-toe for the same thing (or is it a vegetable, c-p, me olde fruit?). Completely forgot that just "gas" to you is petrol / gasoline...

Whatever, when I wrote: WAKE UP?! With gas prices 1/4 of what they are say in Europe, US producers still can't make a profit...?! Way to go capitalism?! US gas producers might consider exporting instead. But guess what?! There are some port facilities in USA to convert imported LNG, but none to convert domestic gas into LNG for export.

Yeah, for sure, blame it all on Chavez. :(

What I wrote was based on an article I'd read recently about fracking shale gas profits published by the Union of International Socialists, Communists and Dictators, better known to many of you as the Economist magazine here (http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21572815-natural-gas-prices-are-sure-riseeventually-bonanza-or-bane) :rolleyes:

One last thought, does the demise of Hugo Chavez signal the eventual extinction of (UK) chavs in any way?

chuks
12th Mar 2013, 13:06
Somewhere a straw man is taking a terrible beating, at the hands of doughty Marmaduke Ecclesworth, Crusader for Truth. Meanwhile, though, back here on Planet Earth....

Con, I am sorry, but I took seriously that what you posted, the exposé of Chávez' role in the assassination of JFK. Surely you were not jesting.

It was perfect cover, what looked like some fat little boy in his Young Pioneers uniform with what looked like a toy gun, but that was tiny trained killer Hugo with not just a toy gun, but a real gun that turned out to be a Dragunov sniper rifle!

Those Rooshian Communists were conducting "extensive field testing of the [Dragunov]" before it was "accepted into service in 1963." (Source: Wikipedia, my emphasis) "Extensive field testing" in, in DALLAS??!! I THINK WE SHOULD BE TOLD!!!

No, I think we just got the answer to the question, "Who really killed JFK?"

Now, what I want to know is, "Where was Hugo on 9/11?" And what about the Moon landings? I have seen pictures of the big control room in Houston with what looks like Hugo in the background, loitering with a broom and a cleaning rag....

Fuel in Germany, "Super" lead-free gasoline, costs about double what it does here in the States.

I have a Toyota Land Crusher in the People's Republic of Southern Vermont that burns about 22 litres per 100 km., while in Germany, the family car is a VW Passat that burns about 11 litres per 100 km., so that I pay about the same amount in both countries for fuel in terms of distance driven. The difference is that, in Germany, the tax on fuel is very high so that the roads are excellent, while here in the States the tax is a joke, something like 15 cents per gallon, so that a lot of the roads are terrible.

Um... lifting...
12th Mar 2013, 13:15
Come again haters? Next charge?


Ah, 'haters'. Always used by the most erudite and profound thinkers among our correspondents.

Chalk & cheese, as you breasts say.

I believe you'll find that Hugo was not only suppressing a strike, but also the rights of workers to collectively bargain.

I believe you'll find even so worldly a publication as the Gray Lady of New York will point out that Ronnie was suppressing a strike only, but was a supporter of workers right to collectively bargain.

While both strike suppressions didn't do a whole lot for their respective industries, there is really very little else they have in common.

But hey, never let a little thing like that get in the way of a good rant.

Andy_S
12th Mar 2013, 13:17
MikeEcho,

You miss my point entirely.

This thread isn't about Reagan. It's about Hugo Chavez. And I'm suggesting that sacking 18,000 workers for going on strike is hardly the behaviour of a man who many people are proclaiming as a socialist hero and champion of the weak and oppressed. Whatever Ronald Reagan or his supporters might have seen himself as, it certainly wasn't a revolutionary socialist.

It's interesting how every time a valid criticism is made of Chavez, you and other apologists - rather than acknowledge, or rebut that criticism - retreat to the tried and tested fallback position of pointing at an entirely unrelated incident associated with someone of a different political persuasion as if it were some sort of justification.

So lets stick to the issue. Do you believe that sacking 18,000 of your own workers for going on strike is the behaviour of a truly progressive and enlightened socialist leader?

stuckgear
12th Mar 2013, 17:39
So lets stick to the issue. Do you believe that sacking 18,000 of your own workers for going on strike is the behaviour of a truly progressive and enlightened socialist leader?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9peZ5WOtL0

hellsbrink
12th Mar 2013, 18:10
Come again haters? Next charge?

Dear oh dear, I think it would be best if you took your feet out of your mouth now before you bite the rest of your toes off......

Lonewolf_50
12th Mar 2013, 21:49
He wants some toe cheese to go with his whine. :p

pigboat
13th Mar 2013, 16:19
The idiotic posthumous cult of Hugo Chavez. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/12/bernard-henri-levy-on-the-idiotic-posthumous-cult-of-hugo-chavez.html)

May Chávez the man rest in peace. But to pretend that the overall record of Chavezism has been positive is an insult to the Venezuelan people.

sisemen
14th Mar 2013, 04:48
Caught a snatch on the radio - apparently Chavez is being credited with the choosing of a south american pope. Chavez is, it was reported, God's main advisor!


Chavez 'swung papal race from Heaven' - The Election of the Pope - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-14/chavez-swung-papal-race-from-heaven/4572336)Nicolas Maduro says Chavez "ascended to the heights and is face-to-face with Christ" and may have influenced the choice.

chuks
14th Mar 2013, 11:24
News is filtering in from Vatican sources of recent troubling events in Heaven:

God came back from His lunch break a few days ago to find the doors to the Throne Room locked and guarded by a throng of sullen campesinos armed with machetes. They were chanting slogans... something about "¡Viva el Hugo, nuestro Dio nuevo!"

Since God only speaks English, He was left baffled at first by this turn of events, until the Virgin of Guadalupe showed up, wiping guacamole from her chin, to translate. Then He got on the Celestial Hot Line to tell His opposite number that there had been a mistake, so that He should get ready for a new arrival.

Later He was heard to be shouting at Saint Peter, something about "I told thee not to let that fat-faced f*ck in his flashy shell suit in! But didst thou listen to Me? No! And now this! Get Me the Marines!"

Sometime later that afternoon, a rendition flight departed for the nether regions, after peace was restored. Now a gay disco in Hell has a new towel boy in its men's bathroom.

stuckgear
14th Mar 2013, 21:46
Caught a snatch on the radio


what were you.......



ok, i best not ask

Lon More
15th Mar 2013, 11:02
apparently Chavez is being credited with the choosing of a south american pope.

Latest news is that "The hand of God" has proclaimed that it was his doing, must have just got in under the bar then.

Apparently the experts have decided that they won't be able to enbalm Chavez's body as it is too rotten.

Lonewolf_50
15th Mar 2013, 11:47
Apparently the experts have decided that they won't be able to enbalm Chavez's body as it is too rotten.
That goes hand in hand with his soul.

Mike Echo: my refinery friends advise me that Chavez' problem with the oil market is that the quality of the crude coming from his nation's well is low. Only Citgo will refine it, as it takes more money to make it usable product than crude from Mexico, the Persian Gulf, North Sea, etcetera.

Having large petrol reserves is good, and it is actually NOT A SECRET!.

The video you present presumes that the breadth of the Venezuelan oil reserves is somehow a secret. IT ISN'T, and the assertion that it is being covered up by the US government is laughable.

It is available through a variety of open sources, if you bother to do a bit of research.

Here's a question for you: is the depth and breadth of the Eagle Ford Shale reserves a state secret as well?

sitigeltfel
15th Mar 2013, 11:58
they won't be able to enbalm Chavez's body as it is too rottenCould that be because he died in Cuba, much earlier than was officially announced?

Anyway, no need to preserve him. If as some on this thread believe, he is the new Messiah, and will rise again.

Lonewolf_50
15th Mar 2013, 11:59
If as some on this thread believe, he is the new Messiah, and will rise again.

He's not the Messiah, he's a naughty boy. :cool:

hellsbrink
15th Mar 2013, 15:56
I got to say one thing, Mike, when you post a load of tripe you do it properly.

For those who wish to know THIS (http://stormcloudsgathering.com/) is the parent site of the YouTube guff posted by Mike.

It's not often you see a website that has tinfoil and peanut butter all over it, but this one does. And when you look at the vid on YouTube itself, and see comments such as

Ronald Reagan was a Bush pawn, and you left out Bill Clinton, American Caligula

you know exactly what you are dealing with, especially with those who "believe" what these KoolAid drinkers at stormcloudsgathering.com publish on their site and YouTube.

stuckgear
15th Mar 2013, 21:08
For those who wish to know THIS (http://stormcloudsgathering.com/) is the parent site of the YouTube guff posted by Mike.

It's not often you see a website that has tinfoil and peanut butter all over it

HB, i've come to a decision..

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/10000/8000/300/18338/18338.strip.gif

Stuckgear, would love for you to watch that and offer your thoughts.


Mike Echo..

BAH !

broadreach
16th Mar 2013, 00:14
I'm with Dilbert's dog. Bah!

Maduro will probably win the presidential election a month from now, with the sympathy vote. And then he'll be faced with massive economic pigeons coming home to roost. I think he probably realises that. He's reputed, at least by those I know or read about, as a more pragmatic person, a negotiator, and one suspects that he will gradually adopt a less agressive tone toward 'The Empire", despite the poisoning accusations and explusion of US diplomats.

I think it will be at least six months before we see what direction the new Venezuelan government will take.

chock2chock
18th Mar 2013, 17:30
Funny that most people here have so much to say and have never even set foot in Venezuela.

con-pilot
18th Mar 2013, 17:58
Funny that most people here have so much to say and have never even set foot in Venezuela.

I have and one person here has spent a great deal of time in Venezuela before and after Chavez took power. So I defer to him on current affairs in Venezuela.

Neither of us are what one could consider a fan of Chavez. Dead or alive.

Lonewolf_50
18th Mar 2013, 19:27
Funny that most people here have so much to say and have never even set foot in Venezuela.
I can promise you that I won't, ever. There are so many better places to see on this planet than Venezuela that I'll run out of time before I stop breathing. I supported them for years, indirectly, by buying Citgo gas as a preferred brand. I did that because I'd rather suppport a Latin American country than a rag head. I realize oil/fuel isn't that simple as a commodity, but that is a choice I could and can make.

Funny thing is, Chock, I don't have to ever have been there to decide it's not on my "must go to" locales. I have family in the know.

My cousin worked for BP for over 20 years. Back a few years, he spent a non-trivial amount of time in Venezuela for some of the projects he worked on. (More recently, he quit BP. I am not sure if BP is even playing in Venezuela anymore, but while he was still at BP he put some effort into transferring to positions that make it less likely for him to go there.

His experiences in Venezeula degraded considerably after Hugo was elected. He generally liked the place, but not enough to keep going back as time went on and things eroded there.

He's a man with a family. The official encouragement of Yank hating set an environment that he didn't care for.

vulcanised
18th Mar 2013, 21:01
The thread's running out of steam, so I don't feel too guilty about picking up on your mention of BP.......

It's been reported that the 'Honest Broker' appointed to handle the distribution of the massive compensation fund set up by BP has either been less than honest, or incompetent, or both.

Tens or even hundreds of million$ have been paid out to claimants who cannot possibly have suffered in any shape or form, and BP have had to ask a Judge to suspend payments.

Lonewolf_50
18th Mar 2013, 21:17
vulcanized, suggest you resurrect one of the numerous BP threads, in re the GoM rig disaster, and add your comments there. We can doubtless keep this thread, as it dies, mostly about Hugo and Venezuela. :ok:

Solid Rust Twotter
19th Mar 2013, 06:09
Funny that most people here have so much to say and have never even set foot in Venezuela.


Why should that be a problem?

chuks
19th Mar 2013, 12:05
I have never been to North Korea or Cuba, yet I think I can base whatever I have to say about both places on facts gained from various sources, such as speaking with returning German tourists. Anywhere there's a beach and some sunshine, they will go there and never mind what sort of misrule the locals labor under!

Venezuela... I tried pretty hard for a flying job based in Caracas, just before the wheels came off. I switched from self-pity to self-congratulation so fast that I was looking at the back of my own head!

It seems incredible now, but Caracas was booming in 1980. So, what happened? Well, Hugo happened, in part, yes?

brickhistory
4th May 2013, 17:54
Well, this should scare somebody...

Obama says U.S. watching 'crackdowns' on Venezuela opposition (http://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-u-watching-crackdowns-venezuela-opposition-002746771.html)


(Reuters) - The United States is watching "crackdowns on the opposition" in
Venezuela, President Barack Obama said in a television interview aired on Friday when asked if he considered newly elected Nicolas Maduro to be the country's legitimate president


I'm not sure who, but surely somebody pays attention when Barry speaks...

Like Syria

Iran

North Korea

the U.S.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?