EK time to upgrade

[Mr.White]

Since EK DEC is closed I would like to know whats the average time right know to upgrade at EK.

I know its going to depend on EK needs, but what are the minimum requirements for an EK FO to get upgraded?


Best Regards

[lfrk]

Requirements for upgrade....keeps changing.

Time for upgarde :

B777 very long time
A380 very long time
A330 hallas=never
A340 hallas=never
A350 TBA
B777X TBA but very, very long time

If you're looking for a quick upgrade you should have joined 3-4 years ago, if you join now, you gonna be stuck or it will be very slow.
But the right seat is ok.
Good luck

[Mr.White]

lfrk, thanks for the info, but what it's very long time in the 777? If it's gonna be 4 years, sounds worthy for me, more time..........Im not sure.

It looks that EK right seat sounds good, but QA has open DEC and that's why is so difficult to decide because I could be stuck on the right seat.

[Mr.White]

Thanks LR3 for your answer, would you be more especific on your case?

What was your previous experience before get in EK?

What year did you get in EK?

What fleet did you get in?

How many years before get upgraded?

Being 767 capt before get in, would speed up upgrade?

Best Regards

[lfrk]

I have been here in EK 18 months, on the 330/340 fleet, (by the way life is good here!!) for me, upgrade will be on the A380 and I don't expect it for at least 6-7 years+ from now minimun, and if I am lucky.

Obviously the recrutment team would sell you 4-5 years, that was true, if you would have joined 4 years ago, but not anymore.

777 side, I think the same way, 6-7years+++, my friends on the 777 say that the upgrade will be quicker on the 777, but again not anymore!! There is lot of 777 orders but mainly for aircraft replacement!!!!

If you join now, yes you will become captain within a decame maximun but not 5 years!
Captain within 10 year, on a jumbo, on a major airline, it's still a very deal compare to other airlines.

Now, right seat in EK v/s left in QR (on A320), for me this not even discussion, I would never work in DOHA!! no way... The life style is too important to me. And I had the choose to....

Good luck.

[Mr.White]

Tks for the info.

Where you Capt before get in EK? 18 month later, are you happy?

I know there is no more fast track, but being 767 Capt. Before get in EK, would speed up upgrade?

Best Regards

[captainsmiffy]

Been here getting on for 6 years, 330/340 - then forced onto 380 when 330 upgrades were on the horizon.....current rules, around another 2 years plus for me. Previously lots of command time, but all below the magic 55 tonnes figure. Rules always changing, never in my favour. The reality is that upgrade is a total lottery for some, a given for others depending on fleet etc. so bear in mind, it could be 8 years....fast in terms of some airlines, but not the speedy progression that the recruiters spoke of.

[Mr.White]

Captainsmiffy, tks for your helpful answer.

At this point, that you had PIC time and dont get upgraded yet, would you prefer to be at QA as a PIC?

Are you ok with the choice you made 6 years ago to get in at EK as FO?

Best Regards

[enthusiast]

Is it available to be a a380 skipper directly from the right seat?

[captainsmiffy]

Yes, there is now a route from the RHS to the LHS on a 380. Only problem is that the management see their new toy as somehow 'different' and that you need 2500 hours on type, on top of whatever heavy hours you have accrued on other fleets within EK.

Mr White, overall, yes, happy in that I have a 'secure' job in aviation but bear in mind that this security is only ever as good as your last approach out here! That has been made quite clear in recent months! Am happy that I made the correct decision in terms of airlines in the middle east. The career progression is a concern but am happy that it will move forward, albeit at a vastly different rate to that of others in different fleets. Remember that you are just a number, here, in a vast machine and that the management will do little to help your personal morale. Still, that costs them in the long term.....

[Praise Jebus]

Mr White it sounds like you are weighing up between a left seat at QA or a right seat at EK. In this industry I would be very reluctant to give up the LHS unless....you are prepared to stay in the RHS for a very long time. That is your worst case scenario isn't it? Don't make a decision on say 4 years in the RHS is ok but not 5 etc because you will never know at EK how long it will be, Capt Smithy a case in point, (but at least he has his gold fish...:))

[Mr.White]

Praise Jebus

Thanks for the advise, it is a very complicated decision to leave RHS. Would you take the LHS at QR before RHS at EK?

Dont you think my 767 experience capt would speed up my upgrade?


Best Regards

[fatbus]

There are plenty of FO with previous command time that are stuck in the RHS and waiting, so I would say at this time it would not speed things up. 3400 pilots now you would be 3401 so @ 6800 until upgrade and yes there will be retirements so it might or will be less than 6800 but not as many as one would think. Go LHS with your background if you can. EK upgrade is looking like 7+

[Kennytheking]

Mr White,

In short, no. Emirates does not take into account any previous experience for the upgrade, other than a requirement to have more than 6 000 hours. Better experience may help to get you in the door as an FO but once you are in, everyone on your fleet is equal.

Your upgrade is limited by the requirement for 3 years and 2 500 in the company & on EK aircraft. Thereafter, you get to join the queue of qualified first officers, who are taken in turn according to seniority.

This can and does change but judging by what is happening on the FO recruitment thread here, it would appear that EK are having the pick of the crop when it comes to experienced pilots to employ(yourself a case in point).

I doubt that even Emirates could give you an accurate estimate of your upgrade time. That said, EK is a substantial and growing force in the airline world. I would rather be here than anywhere else(I don't know QR, so I cannot comment on them). You simply need to decide if you can live here as an FO for an extended period, which could be anything from 3 to 10 years, but most probably something in the middle.

[Panther 88]

Several years ago they recruited individuals such as yourself with the promise of a "fast track" upgrade. Boeing 75/76/74 skipper and you're in. A number of people joined with that promise made. And of course......that changed. Now they had to wait until they had the requisite 2500 hours on EK type, AT EK. From my perspective you will have a minimum of 4 years in the RHS here before getting the chance for an upgrade. Just too many guys here already in the que. Really, I would think 5-6 years would be more accurate. As far as a career goes, left seat time on a large a/c (>55 tonnes, re. 737,320), will always trump most RHS time, IMHO. Being in the left seat opens many more doors, even within one's own airline, than being in the right seat. If so inclined TRE, TRI, projects, whatever. All designed to fill a CV for possibly the next job. Again, just my opinion based on a couple of decades in this industry. Good luck.

[JuniorMan]

but bear in mind that this security is only ever as good as your last approach out here!

What do you mean by this?

[captainsmiffy]

Juniorman....simply put, that nice 'secure' position that you thought that you were in can be - and will be - seriously jeopardised by a mistake. Make no bones about it, slip up and you will be history in this region. Something to factor into your decision to move.

Praisejebus, am still feeding the fish....!:)

[Iver]

Is EK still planning to add the A350 in bulk? Thought EK was pushing for more 777s and a large A350 order (as per original order numbers) was looking less likely. Sounds like I am in error.

When is the first A350 (900 series?) expected to arrive?

[Mr.White]

Kennytheking

Thanks for your answer, once I would get the 3 years, 2500 hrs on EK aicraft and type....... My upgrade would be on señority? Or my 4000 hrs PIC on 767 would give me any advance on the upgrade list?

What is the EK rule on this cases?

Best Regards

[Mr.White]

Panther 88

Thanks for your answer, do you know where are right now those 75/76/74 skippers right know? RHS?

Could you get me in touch with any of those guys to learn about their experience at EK?

Best Regards

[SubsonicMortal]

@Mr. White;

once I would get the 3 years, 2500 hrs on EK aicraft and type....... My upgrade would be on señority? Or my 4000 hrs PIC on 767 would give me any advance on the upgrade list?

Purely based on seniority. Like many other gents have indicated, there are p-l-e-n-t-y EK FO's with previous command time, including heavy command time. I personally have friends who were previous 747 skippers and 767 skippers that are FO's at Emirates. Each and every one waits for his command based on seniority. End of story.

[TPIS]

Would that be seniority on that fleet, or seniority in EK? :confused:

[Mr.White]

SubsonicMortal

Thanks for the info.

Best Regards

[Payscale]

I think you might want to look at it from a different perspective.
Aside from an illusive command in 5-10 years, what else will make me want to move to the Gulf. If nothing or you dont know yet, when do some research.
A lot of well meaning people can tell you what has happened in the past. That all one has to go by.
If your wife will be happy here and your kids thrive, then look at the big picture and come down.
If you are in a secure semi job in your home country close to family and friends, then think long and hard.
I have been here 10+ years and still happy.

[natops]

Fleet normally

[Swan Man]

Keep in mind if you do hold off for a DEC position there is a good chance of you struggling or even failing. 3 Ryan Air pilots (I paid for my type rating) just failed mainly because of their background. One left the company and two are now FOs and still trying to hang on. One pilot never took out a chart.
Amazing what EK is now hiring. Can't we get any qualified widebody captains to take the jobs that our FOs aspire to?

[donpizmeov]

All the FOs in EK now knew about DECs when they joined Swan Man. You (they), knew that other FOs had been shafted command wise but yet you (they) still chose to join. So man up and accept your decision.

The Don

[nolimitholdem]

don,

I don't see anywhere in Swan Man's post that he actually states that he was disadvantaged by EK's awesome policies. Still, that doesn't prevent you from offering advice you have no authority to give, re: manning up. Knowing about something does not require agreeing with it or even liking it. And I'm pretty sure, prevailing mentality aside, that people are still allowed to have an opinion. DEC's suck. They're a reality. But they still suck. And the timing was such I wasn't held back by them either. It's still my opinion, when I can find the energy to give a sh$t. Probably because I can't quite see what a Ryanair 37 captain brings to the table that any EK FO with some time in the operation doesn't. But hey, insert a giant shrug and WHATEVER here.

Then there's A380 guy, trying his pathetic best to bait. I WISH it was easier for guys to get 777 commands. Then maybe I wouldn't have to work so damn much.

But I realized awhile ago A380-Guy's entire raison d'existence on PPRune is to further the stereotype of Australians as annoying know-it-alls with zero to contribute to a discussion, and make sure that that popular characterization never goes away. In which case, I have to admit he does a brilliant job.

:ok:

[donpizmeov]

Limit,

Fair cop. But, just the same way I don't think its right to name and shame FOs who have not passed upgrade, I think the same respect should be shown to those who don't make it through the DEC thing.

The Don

[splitbar]

Is there a published seniority list for EK. I was wondering if someone would PM me a copy of it if that is possible. Trying to look up a few college friends whom I've lost touch with. Thanks!

[Mr.White]

Swan man

How is possible that a guy that never took a chart out get in LHS at EK? Whats going on, people should not waste this kind of opportunity.

[Payscale]

Splitbar.... I doubt anyone would do that. Send out the names of all EK pilots to some anonymous character online... Would YOU?

[electricdeathjet]

One could show a list of pprune usernames instead?

[GoreTex]

380 pilots never take charts out

[Dropp the Pilot]

is that because it saves the effort of replacing them when the flight goes tech?

[Payscale]

Read OMA 8.1.12.4.1 for the correct answer...

[Eric Carr]

All the FOs in EK now knew about DECs when they joined
Did we really Don? I joined about three years ago and first, the DEC option was not on the table. Quite contrary, they even had a rumor buster saying they were not going to go down that path any time soon.
Secondly, the requirements for DEC as per the OM-A were what, 10000h total and 3000h PIC wide body?!
In all fairness, most of us then, at least me personally would not have cut it as a DEC but you must understand that dropping the requirements to were they are now, allowing the very same people that used to be our first officers back in Europe to join as DECs will, in lack of better words, disappoint a number of us.

So please, we will bide our time but in the meanwhile, don't piz us off!

[BigGeordie]

Eric, I think what Don meant was that all the F/Os who have joined since about 2004 have known that Emirates had taken DECs in the recent past and were highly likely to do so again if they needed to. A very small amount of research would also have revealed that the company requirements for DECs, upgrade, change of fleet or whatever are extremely flexible.

I understand your frustration and I think almost everybody at Emirates has been disadvantaged by some rule change or other in the past but that is the nature of the company we work for. If you can't accept that you are truly in the wrong part of the world.

[White Knight]

is that because it saves the effort of replacing them when the flight goes tech?

hahahahahah... The only flights that I've been on at EK as a pax that have gone tech; are Seattle's finest:=:=:=

And as 380 flyer - only one tech delay in over six months... Give it a break dippo!!!!

[donpizmeov]

Yes you did Eric. There was a lot of information around for you to work out what was happening. And the Rumour buster didn't really lie did it, as it was another 3 years until they took DECs again.
Just take a look at this forum during the recent DEC hiring. One thread about DEC hiring and how FOs are being shafted, and another thread by wannabes saying that they feel bad because their start dates are sliding because of DECs. These same wannabes will be on here in a few years saying that they are being shafted because there are no upgrades due to DECs and saying its not their fault because they didn't know.
Tell me Eric, if you feel bad because some DEC has taken your command, is it ok for a more senior FO on the Bus to feel bad for a junior FO on the Boeing to be upgraded years before him? Is this any different?


The Don

[Eric Carr]

Don, I might be in a situation in a couple of years where I'll get a command ahead of more senior F/Os because of the different fleets we have been assigned. When and if that happens I will not go on here and tell the disgruntled, and may I add rightly so, F/Os to "man up"...

[donpizmeov]

But you would take the command none the less. Do you now understand why you need to "man up" when you complain about a DEC doing that to you?

FOs who were shafted in 2003/4 by DECs can complain, as they were lied to. FOs that were shunted to the 380 as their peers were not experienced enough to go, and now have to wait another 4ish years to command (nine in the company), as they watch the less experienced peers already have command on the 330, can complain. Just sayin.

The Don

[go around flaps15]

I personally know 5 DEC Ryanair Captains that have joined EK in recent months and all of them have passed.

I personally know of in the region of 50 first officers that have joined EK in the last year and a half and everyone of them passed aswell.

I take what you say with a large pinch of salt.

P.S. The majority of DEC Ryanair Captains that joined EK would not have paid for their type ratings, I would be surprised if any did. A lot of them would have been in FR long before that started.

[falconeasydriver]

Oh gawd, why does this continually descend into the usual drivel about whats fair, reasonable or promised???
We work for EK, its their train set, they do with it what they please, either accept it or head elsewhere, wasn't that made pretty clear from the beginning?
The only constant here is change, and you can tell when you are being lied too because the perpetrators lips are moving.
As for the 380 vs 777 thing, my 5 year old likes the games in Y on the new 777's over the Boos equivalent, and the last pax flight I did was subbed on the 777 as the 380 went lame in DXB...again:E

[donpizmeov]

B@gga I have to agree with Falcon.

The don

[BigGeordie]

It was pretty clear on this website. You wouldn't move yourself and your family halfway around the world based on what the recruiters told you without doing your own research would you?

You would? Oh.....

[clear to land]

When I joined in 06 I was aware-as was everyone that I joined with- that EK had-and would-recruit DEC's. I didn't agree with the policy, but nobody made me join-I chose too. As Don has previously said, no one has not known this since 02/03 ish. If someone joined who didn't know this, quite frankly I wouldn't want to be in their aeroplane as clearly they have no SA!! :ugh: