Microsoft flight sim

[Cloudwatcher]

Can anybody advise me as to whether or not there would be any benefit at all using a flight sim to enhance my knowledge skills and understanding.Or would it just confuse the issue?

[November Whiskey]

Dear Cloudwatcher,

IMHO, getting yourself a flight sim would be a smart move.

It was MS Flight Sim 98 and subsequently the 2000 Prof. edition that inspired me to fulfil my dreams to be a pilot.

Having spent probably hundreds, if not thousands of hours on the sim (please note I also have a life!), when I eventually got my hands on a real plane, I found that I was very comfortable with understanding the fundamentals as well as having the confidence (of my instructor also) to perform take off, cruise and landings on my trial lesson.

The beauty of flights sims are that they allow you to learn and also make mistakes with out the cost and pain of doing it for real.

Certain flight sims also have actual lessons with an instructor, and comprehensive notes an approach plates for things like ILS approaches. So you can make an early start, either before, or supplemental to real lessons.

So there you go!

If you want any further info by all means drop me an e-mail.

Cheers!


N.W.

P.S. One last thing is that once you fly for real, the simulator doesn't ever quite match up!!!!!!

[Cloudwatcher]

Cheers November Whiskey,Already started my
PPl(7 Hours tommorow ,weather permitting).
I think I will purchase Microsoft Flight Sim
2000.But should I get a yoke or would a joystick be O.K. I'm learning in a warrior.......oh! and should I invest in Rudder pedals?

[NigelS]

I think it depends on what level you're at. I think FS is very good for what it is. But I believe (and I'm happy to be contradicted) there's a tendency for PPL students who have loads of FS time to fixate on the instruments too much. Maybe the FI rated people here would say the same??
If you're at the PPL stage, you'll have time to learn IR later. For now, get used to lifting your gaze outside of the cockpit.
Having said all that, I used FS for ages until I could stand it no longer and just had to go fly the real thing. I suffered the problem outlined above at first but quickly got on with it. One of the benefits will be that you'll understand radio navigation from the off, how to track a VOR radial, navigate toward an NDB, and intercept an ILS. Excellent! Just remember though, that in the real world of aviation you will have to learn the ropes and progress through things in the logical sequence. Personally, I found it a good basis from which to procede. It's somewhat easier to fly a real plane in some ways as you can 'feel' what it's doing.

Anyway, thought I would get all my points in befor the message is lifted. They hate this site becoming a resource for flight simmers. A sound policy I feel!

Best of luck with your future in the skies (real or virtual).

Nigel

[Superpilot]

I started off with FS98 and learnt a great deal. Now I use FS2000 (which is more of a scenery simulator). NigelS is right, there is going to be the bad habit of fixating on the instruments but there are also lots of things to be gained too. It’s all about learning what ‘this’ needle does with respect to ‘this one’. You’ll learn all about VOR’s, NDB’s, ILS’s - the cheap way ;)

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]

[Dotun]

Hmmm, welcome to my domain. Check out www.chproducts.com. (http://www.chproducts.com.) for yokes, pedals, throttle, etc. If you are into instruments ie, ILS, NDB, VOR e.t.c, then I would personally recommend the ACP (Aircraft Control Panel). It lets you tune the radio and the rest.

Also, if you are a PPL student like me self and want to know about the instrument stuff from a simulation point of view, before you do the IR, then try www.navfltsm.addr.com. (http://www.navfltsm.addr.com.) I can't wait till I am again lose on another solo nav, when I intend to attempt an NDB approach, VOR approach and ILS. I did it OK with 2 miles visibility and 1000ft on the sim !!!.

Please guys mail me if you know of any sites / products I can add to my toy collections.

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Dotun ]

[foghorn]

Dotun,

:eek: :eek: :eek:

You're joking about the NDB approach, right? I hope you are, you can ignore the following if so...

Never attempt anything in an aircraft in which you not properly trained, qualified and current unless it is a last resort to save lives. Doing an NDB approach whilst VFR on a solo navigation trip is asking for trouble. Given your inexperience you'll need all the skill and brainpower you currently possess on flying safely visually, maintaining a proper lookout as befits VFR, not staring at the ADF needle attempting to do an NDB approach just because you've done it a million times on MS flight sim. We are talking about real life now.

Don't forget it's your instructor's licence and possibly your life that is on the line if you make a mess of things.

Please either tell me you were joking or take a long hard think about what you have just said. The aviation world is not about taking wild risks like this and it may be better without you as a member if this is an example of your thinking.

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

[Dotun]

Only jokking. I had exclamation marks there. Surely, you should be able to joke.
:eek:

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Dotun ]

[foghorn]

Phew, glad to hear it :D :D :D

Disregard the above, then. Glad you've discovered the icons now as well
;)

(The following added some time later)

What is quite cheeky is that Dotun has changed his original post after I had added my comments. This retrospectively makes my comments look a little silly, so for the record when I first responded Dotun just said that he was going to 'have a go at an NDB approach' on his next solo. He changed this to 'an NDB approach, VOR approach and ILS' afterwards.

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

[Deputy Dog]

I found it useful for rehearsing cross country flights during my PPL. I rehearsed my cross country qual many times.
I would do all my planning the night before (assume a wind deviation)and then fly these headings + calculate eta's, freda chk etc on the sim. It really gets you thinking about stuff beforehand and builds your confidence when you actually arrive at your virtual destination.

It is useful for imc/ir also. I use the plates from trev thom, set wind, vis etc and try to do the approaches, interceptions and holds. You can see your track then on the gps. Use a stopwatch to time the legs keeping a const speed. Download scenery and aircraft (I found a pa28-161) free from flightsim.com. Recon it can save you hours of training if used properly. Having said that I actually find it easier to fly a real plane !!

[foghorn]

This has been discussed a couple of times before here.

The consensus is that computer-based flight simulators are good for:

- IFR procedure practice
- increasing aviation awareness
- promoting good aviation thinking (like mental planning, checklists from memory, wind correction, gross error checking and a million other thought processes that are second nature to a good pilot)
- and last but not least, inspiring people to go out a try the real thing.

They are no good for developing the basic skills of flying an aeroplane, and in some cases can actually detract from this by fostering the wrong mental attitude (the 'I've done this a million times on MS Flight Sim' mentality that panicked me above!)

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

[Dotun]

Foghorn,

STOP having a go at me, anyway, you are a student, if you maybe ........ f. ... . I have not got a microsoft flight sim attitude. I mentioned a sim not FS2000 or somthing. Infact, I come from a unix background, so not a fan of MS product.

I don't even own a MS flight sim. If your flying is still RUBBISH after trying MS flight sim, then you might want to try x-plane. Its what NASA use to train their pilots.

PS.
If you maybe ask me nicely, you might want to have a go at some modifications I have made i.e. software wise to the flightgear flight sim openGL, which am sure will improve your flying skills than MS will.

Wannabes software engineers:

Perhaps we can form an organization that will develop somthing we can all use, which will help us with ILS stuff. check www.flightgear.org (http://www.flightgear.org)

[foghorn]

Dotun,

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Wow, you're sensitive, mate. Where was I having a go at you? No offence was intended. How can I have accused you of a 'microsoft flight sim attitude' when you were joking about the NDB approach? You were joking, weren't you? ;)

I'll ignore the rest of you post. It might be an attempt to insult me (for what I don't know) or it might just be your turn of phrase. Either way I'll let it pass.

foggy.

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

[prob30]

People like you scare the hell out of me. I did my ppl and exams in 6 weeks in uk and am now doing an atpl. Believe me when you go onto atpl you realise you know nothing. Not nearly enough. I am staggered that the requirements for a ppl are not stricter. I just hope you scare yourself before you kill someone. What do people think, should ppl be harder??

[Cloudwatcher]

Calm down , remember I'm only a low timer who simply wanted some advice.......I certainly didn't want to start an argument.

Chill out
Cloudwatcher

[foghorn]

Ignore the bunfight here and get the flight sim - it'll be worth every penny if only for the fun value.

Be warned that FS2000 needs a pretty beefy machine though!

[Cloudwatcher]

Thanx Foghorn,
I've got 1ghz chip with 256k ram and a 32meg
so hopefully I'll be O.K.
cw

[Cloudwatcher]

I mean't 256 meg's of RAM and a 32 meg graphic card.

cw

[foghorn]

That sounds fine - it made my old Pentium II - 450MHz / 256MB RAM / 16MB graphics struggle a bit...

[minuteman]

IMHO,
I reckon that MS Flt Sim does nothing for real flying ability, VFR/IFR etc. I do realise that there are IFR trainers out there which do a pretty good job of recreating needles etc..
The autopilot functions in MSFS are woefully underprogrammed and bear no resemblance to those in real life (certainly the 737 anyhow). I'd leave MSFS for what it is and concentrate on getting actual time!!!! Nothing quite like your first ILS to minima..or NDB for that matter!

[Trislander]

My Advice:

I have many flight sims.

Get Flight Unlimited III quick before the shops run out of supply, as they are not being made any more. A very good quality flight sim.

Trislander.

------------------
http://www.aurigny.com/images.gb%20/trislander.jpg
"Ayline 221 airbourne"

[JT8]

If you want the sim for real practice, get X-Plane with a yoke and pedals.

and www.rcsimulations.com (http://www.rcsimulations.com) may be of interest.

JT8 :)

[VTOL]

I would definitely recommend having a look at X-Plane and not just limiting yourself to MS Flight Sim. OK MSFS has nicer scenery (compared to the default X-Plane scenery but there are lots of scenery improvememnts available onthe web) but the mathematical modelling used by X-Plane is mcuh more rigourous giving a much more "realistic" reaction to wind,gusts etc. There are also 2 other programmes packaged with it: Planemaker and Worldmaker, which allow you to design and build your own planes (should you so desire) or customise the scenery/Navaids/airports. Or you can do what I do and download stuff that other people have done! It is written with OpenGL and runs quite sweetly on most reasonable machines. (I've got a PIII 500 with 256MB and 16MBTNT2)

There is also a policy of free upgrades on the web - latest version is 5.66 with a new release due out later on this Autumn.

Check out www.x-plane.com (http://www.x-plane.com) also have a look around the downloads and forum site www.x-plane.org (http://www.x-plane.org)

[Ennie]

If your gonna use flightsim, I'd make sure you have a half decent CPU in your computer and a graphics accelerator! :D

[GonvilleBromhead]

Anyone else got Flight Simulation for the ZX Spectrum ???

I'll get me coat...

[Lucifer]

If you want a real intro to instrument procedures, don't bother with MS FS; get RANT 2000. It's a great deal better and done for real training.

Don't waste money on yokes etc for FS; it isn't that realistic, and you'd start learning the wrong instincts for things. Rudder is not very good in the aircraft unlike reality, and the visual attitudes don't really tie in to reality either. It does (obviously) have its uses, but be careful to learn things the right way rather than the Microsoft way!

[Cloudwatcher]

Thanx for all the advice guys, I think I'll definately check out X-plane aswell as ms 2000.
However like one of you said there's no substitute for the real thing.
Having said that I did have a go on 747 classic flight sim the other week and that was pretty realistic...to me anyway!
By the way my 7th hour of real flying went pretty well, think it's starting to come together I've got stalling soon and my instructer is winding me up I think...is it really that bad, it's in the warrior by the way.
Cheers
cw

[scroggs]

OK, chaps. I've let this thread continue as the question of whether FS2000 (or X-plane, RANT, Fly11, or whatever) is a useful training aid is a valid one, and worth covering. I don't want the thread to descend into either a technical discussion over what's needed to run any particular program, nor a bunfight over which computer Flight Sim is the enthusiast's mutt's nuts.
Now, if anyone's got any useful FS (or RANT or whatever...) IFR simulation techniques which others will find genuinely useful in their real flying, by all means add them here.

edited because of brain fade!

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

[Busta Level]

If you can fly one of those b@**ard sims I'm sure you'll be able to fly the real thing. Every time i take off in FS2000 I invert and plough into the ground. I am using just the keyboard mind you!

I'm glad the real thing has better controls!!

Cheers!

Busta ;)

Sorry Scroggs - just read your post. Didn't mean to send this topic to the top again! :rolleyes:

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Busta Level ]

[v1rotate]

I used to use MS Flight Sim before I saw IFT Pro (vers. 6). The graphics are NOT something to write home about but the program is much better that MS flight sim for instrument flying. MS flight sim had the annoying ADF needle moving in 5 degree increments and it's much too small to accurately fly. They may have changed it in FS2000 (I've got the Pro Version but have only used it 10 times since I got it a year ago).

MS Flight Sim is great to have fun and get a basic undestanding Instrument flying however IFT Pro or Jeppesen Flight Pro are much better IF platforms.

[v1rotate]

With regards to IR techniques using the NDB. Here is my way of tracking inbound (the more trickier of the two) and outbound of the beacon.

The rule that I use is Heads Down, A55 Up

What this means is that if you want to track inbound on a particular track, the intercept you choose will make the HEAD go down (drop) towards the desired track. I'm giving examples of NIL wind and I'm not going to discuss turning a couple of degrees before the needle drops to the track as this will only confuse the basic concept. Example:

When tracking INBOUND

If you want to track 360 inbound, your heading is 360 but the needle points to 010 (we are using an RMI here). If you were to stay on this heading, the head will go down (drop) to an ever increasing track 011, 012, 013 etc. The needle will NEVER drop to your desired track so you must get the needle to the other side of your current heading so that it can drop/fall/go down to the desired 360 track. So, turn right and head say 020 and when the needle drops to 360, then turn back onto a heading of 360 to maintain track.

When tracking OUTBOUND

If you want to track 360 outbound, your heading is 360 but the tail of the needle points to 010. Make an intercept heading of say 340 and wait for the needle will come up/rise to your desired track and then turn back onto a 360 heading.

Outbound is always the easiest of the two and the best way to picture where you are is to look at the RMI and picture your aircraft on the tail of the needle ALWAYS regardless if you are inbound or outbound. Then picture the beacon on the pivot of the needle (in the centre). This gives you a good indication of where you are (track) and which way to turn to intercept.

Hope this makes sense :confused:

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: v1rotate ]

[Speed Twelve]

Thought I'd chip in a flying instructor's viewpoint. In my opinion, for an ab-initio student, PC flight-sims are of no useful advantage whatsoever. They do encourage instrument fixation, and can make it difficult to instill the basic technique of attitude flying and looking out of the window!
The fact that a lot of these 'high-street store' flight sims seem to include detailed tutorials makes it all the worse. I've lost count of the number of new students that I've seen that arrive for PPL training conditioned to doing things in a certain (incorrect) manner because of some game they've been fiddling with at home.
Bear in mind that's my opinion of their relevance to ab-initio training. As far as IF is concerned I reckon programs such as RANT and IFT are the dog's pods, and I use them myself. As far as VFR stuff is concerned, best stick to the ones where you have guns and a wingman, eh?

[BozoUK]

I don't want to add too much to this regarding FS being a help for PPL training - I personally think it is, as long as you realise the limitations - and it is more fun than reading a book about NDBs, ILS and VORs.

One aspect of FSim i do recommend to students at the flying school I work at is flying online. I flew with SATUK (www.satuk.org.uk) for about 8 months and am now a controller, and I found that by getting used to the phraseology it helped enourmously with my training (I have 18 hours, not yet solo, due to poor weather mainly).

The biggest hurdle I found was actually talking to a total stranger using a microphone, staring at a computer screen. But by continuing with it, it gave me a sense of confidence that I DID know the words used in RTF, and knew the correct order they should be used - I suppose you can get this info from books or listening to airband radios - but practice makes perfect.