Qatar Airways " Think long and Hard"

[Porkling]

Food for thought Ladies and Gentleman. With the state of recruitment here in the UK and throughout Europe, I know many of you may be considering heading out to take up a job with Qatar Airways. Lots of great selling points; very modern fleet, good salary, accommodation allowance, sunny warm days, swimming pools, Golf Club etc etc.But it's not quite what it says on the tin !!!! This is not a rant of a bitter person but rather a warning for those considering going out there.
Remember, It’s a job and we all need a job and and we all love flying. But the caveat is, it should come with a Health Warning.

1. Staff accommodation is not always available and if it is, they do not provide what is stated on the contract. If staff accommodation isn't available the allowance falls short of finding a reasonable equivalent. When you ask, they are not interested.
2. The Bond is also manipulated in their favour. Re-payments start immediately, but the bond period doesn't start until the end of your line training and that can be as long as 6 to 12 months ( longer in some cases) after your arrival in Doha. Making the Bond period 4 years in effect not 3 years.
3. Crewing in general is not helpful, so any idea of being able to pop home on rest days, forget it.
4. They can and have changed peoples leave periods while actually on leave eg 14 days suddenly cut to 7 days without notice.
5. You can literally spend weeks and months on arrival before actual type training starts.
6. They take your passport away which normally takes 6 weeks to get back.
7. During probation period FO's can be and have been fired if their Captain makes a mistake.
8. Captain’s with no blemish on their record and years experience with the company have been fired for the smallest of infringement. This also has been know to happen to FO's, frequently.
8. Crew on annual vacation who had to undergo surgical procedures outside Doha have found that they lost their jobs.
9. Crew members requesting compassionate leave because of sick relatives back in their home countries being refused, even when they have offered to take the leave with no salary for the period.
10. Salaries and privilege’s stopped without informing crew members these actions have been taken or will be taken.
11. Staff members while on line training being subjected to abuse and bully tactics, being told that they are stupid and lazy.
12. Unlike here a European carrier, the culture is a Blame, Blame !!!!!

The problem is that they do not really care for their staff, the way they treat people is unprofessional and morally wrong, you are just a number who can be replaced at a moment’s notice. Money is not a consideration, as they keep telling you; they have bags of the stuff.

Should for any reason your face suddenly doesn't fit they will get rid of you in a heartbeat, without any concern for you or your personal circumstances, how it will affect you career, your family and your future.
They will if required fabricate the issue, in order not to lose face at the consequence of the staff member. A lot of occasions the staff member has only his/her word against his/her line manager.

To cover the accusation of being defamatory, I have not been slanderous and everything mention here is back up and actual events as happened to friends and colleagues and continues to happen.

But if you treat it as a temporary measure until better positions start coming available back home or elsewhere, then get a enough hours on your type rating, keep your head down and be prepared to put up with the BS.
Good luck and enjoy. :ok::ugh:

[captplaystation]

Why oh why am I surprised (not !)

You are viewed in this company (and I could well imagine Emirates & the other one who cannot be named) as paid labour, nothing more, nothing less.

You are not one "of them" & your perceived status , for "them" is on the same level as a Filipino chambermaid.

If you for one minute imagine otherwise, you truly are dillusional.

[captjns]

Been told the same by a friend who has been there for a year and a half.

After all, what else can one say when dealing with a group dumber than dirt, realizing they are dumber than dirt. Dealing with a group that masks their inability to have rational dialog and decision making skills with wealth. As they lack the presence of mind when it comes to conflict resolution, they choose to eradicate the problem.

[fantom]

Before we tar everyone with the same brush, I have to say that during my four years with Kuwait Airways I was treated very respectfully indeed.

Shukran jazeelan.

[captjns]

I can remember years back when the demand was greater than the supply too.:hmm:

[Iver]

Anyone contemplating QR should expect to work hard as pilot productivity is apparently paramount (no surprise). I copied the following posts found on Pprune in 2012 (not my content - these are copied posts apparently written by QR pilots):



1. For those contemplating joining QR, here is an actual roster for A320 Captain.The month and specific destinations have been omitted to protect the innocent. All times are based on DOHA which is where your body clock will be.

Day 1. day off at out station in Europe.
Day 2. wake-up-call 2150 to fly back to Doha.
Day 3. Land DOH 0535, report again 2245 for Gulf turn-around (3h on gnd).
Day 4. Land DOH 0645, report again 0000 for Gulf turn-around (3h on gnd).
Day 5. Land DOH 0555, report again 1945 for Gulf turn-around ARR DOH 0000.
Day 6. report 1800 regional turn-around
Day 7. Land DOH 0015, report again 1345 for three-sectors (Gulf + layover),
Day 8. land at outstation 0120 (layover), wake-up-call 1500, land DOH 2230
Day 9. off
Day 10. off
Day 11. report 0650, four-sectors around the Gulf, land DOH 1700.
Day 12. report 2245 for Gulf turn-around (3h on gnd)
Day 13. land DOH 0645, report again 2345, two sectors for layover.
Day 14. land at outstation 0830 (layover)
Day 15. wake-up-call 0855, two sectors, land DOH 1910
Day 16. off
Day 17. report 2345, regional turn-around
Day 18. land DOH 0545, report again 1925, one sector for layover
Day 19. land at outstation 0055 (layover), wake-up-call 2300
Day 20. operate back to DOH followed by a Gulf turn-around, land DOH 1050
Day 21. off
Day 22. off
Day 23. ground school (ex. crm, security, dangerous goods)
Day 24. report 1045 Gulf turn-around plus regional turn-around, land DOH 2230.
Day 25. off
Day 26. off
Day 27. report 0700 one sector to Europe for 22h layover.
Day 28. wake-up-call 1030 fly to DOH plus Gulf turn-around, land DOH 2320.
Day 29. report 1230 one sector to Europe for 24h layover.
Day 30. wake-up-call 2200 to fly to Doha
Day 31. land DOH 0530.

This roster has the minimum eight days off, of which seven are at home and one is in a hotel (Day 1). 92 block hours and 160 duty hours (= salary QAR42,500). Generally it is unusual to get days off at outstation.

You will often get a 10-12 day pattern with a combination of day and night flying with the one legal day off in the middle. Rest of the month will obviously be better.

QR operates strictly according to legality. No regard is taken for family issues, fatigue-issues or the flight safety implications fatigue has. You will be tired beyond your imagination, but you will get a decent meal at 3am if you wish.

By the way, management cancelled one week’s leave for all A320 pilots this winter.



2. A330 Roster :-

2 x BRU
1 x ICN
1 x MNL
1 x DXB
1 x FCO
1 x ZRH + STR (3 sector day)

A return from LHR at the beginning of the month meant just over 99hrs flying.



3. Typical monthly Qatar 777 roster

2 JFK (3 Days trip)
1 MEL (4 Days trip)
1 BKK-SGN (4 Days trip)
1 PVG (3 Days trip)

2-3 days off between and some stand-by

Flight time 120hrs/ 75 logged hours

[THRidle]

The thing to remember is that airlines that hire expats do so because they have to NOT because they want to. Conversly, pilots who fly for these airlines, in the majority, do so because thay HAVE to, not because they want to. I'm sure the majortiy of pilots would like to be based in their home countries.

So basically we are like that other famous profession. They pay the money and we take it and thats it. If we don't like it we move to the next customer.

[illusion]

I guess what you are really saying is that if they did not have lots of oil they would still be living in tents in the desert shooting at each other and washing once a month.

[de facto]

Location: Australia
Posts: 180
I guess what you are really saying is that if they did not have lots of oil they would still be living in tents in the desert shooting at each other and washing once a month.



Maybe one should think long and hard into his own origins and country wealth development sources before making such idiotic and racist remarks.

[Wellington Bomber]

Think you will find it is Gas not Oil

[captjns]

Regardless the profession, expats in that part of the world are deemed a disposable and replaceable commodity. Its a pity that westerners in managerial positions are no better than their masters.

[JB007]

This isn't anything new, always been like this, especially regarding the original post about Qatar...

Been there...thought about it...went to the arse end of Germany instead!!!

[bacp]

And so begins another tirade on the inequities of working in the Gulf,Yawn!
Guys, you took their Shilling, live with it eh!
The ME employers are the same as European and American and Far Eastern Employers are like plus or minus a bit of employment legislation.
This is our brave new aviation world, just make sure your kids do something different.

[No RYR for me]

6. They take your passport away which normally takes 6 weeks to get back.

Is it only me who has always flow with two passports to prevent issue's like this and to prevent getting the occasional wrong stamp for certain countries...

Or as MasterCard would probably say it: "The look on their face when they realise they cannot stop you from leaving: priceless!" :D

[Deep and fast]

I terms of being slave drivers and a:mad:oles, are the non legacy European carrier management not far behind in their behaviour to pilots?

I worked for a regional in UK and hated them within 6 months! But hey I'm an irritable sod :E

[Porkling]

Even if you have a second passport, you would have difficulty leaving unless you have managed to have got two entry visa on arrival, one for each passport ! If you try and leave and do not have an entry visa, " Good Luck " :=:=:=

[hawker750]

Two or preferably three passports is not a nice thing to have in this industry it is a MUST

[mikechekker]

"Is it only me who has always flow with two passports to prevent getting the occasional wrong stamp for certain countries...

Or as mastercard would probably say it: "The look on their face when they realise they cannot stop you from leaving: priceless! :D""


I think you may find that they indeed CAN stop you from leaving if you present a different passport from the one you entered with. DOH:ugh:

[No RYR for me]

I think you may find that they indeed CAN stop you from leaving if you present a different passport from the one you entered with. DOH

You can still leave but you must have the right story/paperwork at hand, not starting to think about it when you are at the airport... Travel for work/Medical emergency while the paperwork is sorted, etc all still do the trick :E Ohh and make sure your family is out of the country before you go :ouch:

[No RYR for me]

Oh and don't forget to tell your next employer that a certain country needs to be on your no fly list.... That is the bit that sucks the most... :rolleyes:

[McBruce]

Simples. Ensure you keep the primary passport you entered the country with! :E

[doubleu-anker]

I can empathise with everything stated by the thread starter. Same all over the uncivilized world, as far as I am concerned.

These people are very short sighted. They know just enough about aviation to be dangerous.

An unhappy pilot is possibly not as safe as a happy pilot. If a pilot has problems on his/her mind, they havent got their minds completely on the job.

Pilots and engineers still are, in my view, a companies greatest asset apart from their aircraft.

If they think looking after crews is not a priority, possibly ignoring safety, then wait until there is a prang (God forbid) then they will know what is expensive and an important issue.

[Paper Lad]

No matter what passport you have, or multiples thereof, you still need an Exit Visa to get out of Qatar.

I am told that N. Korea and Cuba have similar systems.

[Captain Partzee]

After reading all this I can only say:

Thanks you God I've left this hell!


All the best!

[casablanca]

They do not keep your passport other than while obtaining a residency visa.
Pilots are eligible for multiple exit visa and are able to come and go at will.

[fireflybob]

The problem is that they do not really care for their staff, the way they treat people is unprofessional and morally wrong, you are just a number who can be replaced at a moment’s notice. Money is not a consideration, as they keep telling you; they have bags of the stuff.


Now where have I heard this before.......?

[Porkling]

Casablanca is wrong or I should say incorrect. They do take your passport away for 6 weeks, in my case and 4 others who joined at the same time, 2 months. Plus you have to have been there for 3 months before you are ALLOWED to have a multi exist visa. Guess what ? They make it a requirements for crew to have a multi exist visa. But who pays for it ??? YOU DO, not them !!!!! Yes you get to come and go, but its for operational reasons they require you to have it. And coming and going, you have to be careful there too ! :{:{:{:{

[windshear-a-head]

p.s. When the joyous day arrives of leaving you have to pay 500QR to cancel the Multi Exit Visa (a small price to pay for freedom though :ok:)

[Callsign Kilo]

Christ almighty, QR sounds worse than a jail sentence. I have a few ex colleagues who elected to go there as DECs on the A320. Sounds like its a bit more than your average tails of doom and gloom.

[mikechekker]

Simples. Ensure you keep the primary passport you entered the country with!

They will not give you a work permit on a passport without an entry stamp.

They do not keep your passport other than while obtaining a residency visa.
Pilots are eligible for multiple exit visa and are able to come and go at will.

Nobody said any different. Look back at points 5 and 6 of the original post to see how the discussion developed. Your contribution smacks of a desperate attempt to dream up something (anything at all) positive to say. People around here do that a lot. Amazing how if you deprive a group of people enough they WILL start to appreciate any crumbs you throw at them. "Eligible" for a multiple exit visa. "Come and go at will". Good grief. Welcome to QR.

[CasperFan]

"Its a pity that westerners in managerial positions are no better than their masters".
:D

[no sponsor]

You used to put up with this sort of crap because the salary and the fact it was tax free meant it would be worth it in the long term. But the salary these days just doesnt warrant putting up with working for that particular CEO and his absurd rules.

I guess the desperate need only apply.

[Joe le Taxi]

"Its a pity that westerners in managerial positions are no better than their masters".

But they sure know how to pick 'em - There are just two people I would for ever avoid in aviation, and rather conveniently, they both ended up at Qatar.

[King on a Wing]

I heard quite the opposite about QR surprisingly. From some of my ex colleagues who joined up as 330/777 skippers. And I'm NOT trying to wind this thread either!
Except for the one off booze ban and the odd letter from managment they all have said quite candidly that if you mind your business, nobody bothers you.
Some have gone as far to say that QR would positively be overtaking EK/EY within 2-3 years max.
It is already a 5 star airline. Neither is EK that nor any other airline in the ME.
and where are you staying?
In the RICHEST nation on the planet!
Speaks volumes doesnt it.
Quit whining and start flying I say.
Like I said, just MY own thoughts..

[Alexander de Meerkat]

King on a Wing - If you kept your nose clean under Josef Stalin, his henchmen left you alone. The problem was that you did not always know if you had upset him or not! That did not make the USSR a pleasant place to live or work. Qatar is clearly the rock bottom job of the Middle East, but sadly some people have to do it. Mercifully, I do not and therefore will not be going there.

I have a mate there and he would back every single statement made by the original poster. Like China, you will always be a foreigner in these countries. I am told that even Emirates is going the same way. I heard some informed rumour recently that that have a number of aspiring Arab managers coming up through the ranks and have therefore decided to get key western managers to re-apply for their jobs. Surprise - after a 'fair and balanced' recruitment process, the Arabs are going to get the jobs. That is the harsh reality of working for overtly racist companies like that - it does not matter how incompetent the guy is as long as he is local. You imagine giving up a good career in the UK to pursue the sandpit dream - then you find yourself sacked or demoted because some joke local fancies your job. That is the harsh reality of life out there. Anyone who thinks otherwise is going to be sadly disappointed.

[salamalikum2]

Quotes:

1-"Qr overtaking EK within 2..3 years....":\
Can't stop laughing....

2-"It is already a 5 stars airline.."
It doesn't make any difference for us ( crew) if the airline is 5 stars, 4 stars... since the rating is related to passengers treatment.
EK for example which is not a 5 stars airline as you said, give pilots better T&C, generous bonus,pension plan..unlike Qr...

3-We are staying in the " richest nation on the planet"
Probably true, ( the most unequal as well), so as an expat you won't really feel it.

Not whining..just try to bring back your high expectation into a right and more realistic track.

[King on a Wing]

I see what you're saying Alexander. But these are boys who have been there for quite a while now.
Like I said I would readily believe them over another.
But how does what AB do/not do affect the common pilot. I mean they pay you well, decent allowances, reasonable rosters(long haul) fair hotels on layovers. What else are we looking for here.
As a nation, every heaven on earth has a little hell in it doesn't it. It's where we would like it to be.
I mean I can understand if someone complained about the heat or the sand. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
And Btw, almost every single nation on the planet would shoo the foreigner, if only they could!
But if you make yourself wanted enough, I guess it might be a different story.

Like I said earlier, just my thoughts.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Afternoon Porkling:

Thank you for taking the time and relating your thoughts on being an expatriate working off shore.

I did have a chuckle reading your well thought out posting as when I saw your age it reminded me of an experience I had so many years ago.

As you will appreciate I will not name places or airlines so as not to raise any flags. I was about your age when my manager asked me if I was interested in a secondment to Airline "X". Being the adventurous type I said yes as at that time I thought of getting an offshore tax free job and making a killing so I could retire in a warmer climate with tons of money in the bank but I digress.

While at Airline "X" I worked with a group of expatriates and over beer it seemed to be this, my five year plan is this, problems dealing with the locals which in the vast majority of cases was the level of anger being directed at them because they were "stealing" local jobs, medical care, going home on holidays, schooling for children etc. Other issues and not limited to was the "local" competency which ranged from non-existent to brilliant as jobs were a "patronage" position and the fact this country went from the ox cart to sophisticated jet aircraft in a generation or two. No protection ie a union to back you up, if you did something took someone's "face" you were put in a very "awkward" position very quickly and it was definitely not "milk and cookies" with the management of the day (which changed which way the wind blew).

Needless to say my experience was considered an educational experience as it allowed me to look at many cultures and how they relate to others plus an opportunity to travel.

Would I ever do it again the answer is no mostly because I have "hung up the hat" but it would only be considered if it was to put food on the table.

I would invite others to consider this that there are people who have to go in the "sand box" as this their means to support their families, there are others who do not do their due diligence and really find out they have made a poor decision to go there as there are others who realize they made a poor decision and are not intellectually honest to admit so and then there are others who thrive on being an expatriate.

I know of a few people who went to the "sand box" and have done very well for themselves and others who left the "sand box" early and are now simulator instructors because they could not fit in or the flying time limits were ugly.

So Porkling please keep putting your insights here as I for one find them great reading.

In closing anyone who wants to work off shore make sure you have a good financial planner who can steer you through your countries tax laws as it applies to working off shore and of course Caveat Emptor rules all.

[Luke SkyToddler]

I agree with all the points of the original poster and more - he hasn't even touched on the crushing, grinding constant fatigue, the despicably low training standards, the insane culture particularly among the cabin crew of making reports against everyone and everything for having a single hair out of place, the blatant rostering corruption and cronyism, the god awful roach pits that are the company accommodation, the dreary uncultured drab sh!t hole that is the actual country, and the million and one ways those people can make you and your family's lives a misery, and let it be known that you are about as welcome and about as valued as dog sh!t.

The stupidest thing I've ever done in my career was leave a secure job in a orange-themed european lo-co to go there, and the biggest feeling of relief in my life was when I left Doha for the final time about 1 day after my bond was expired.

[RoyHudd]

I understand that they are considerably worse than you describe, Sky Toddler.

DEC's are by and large most unhappy with their lot.

Frankly, no-one should be surprised. QOL is low/zero in that part of the world.

[aa73]

Yeah but you get to fly with that Frank Webb dude who writes for Airways mag... :ok:

[loc22550]

Toddler,
As mentioned before, the type of management in application in QR is called a Type "x" management ( based on reprimand..)and of course its the counter productive one!( the other one is type "y").

[Iver]

Frank Webb hasn't written an article for them in many months? Sure he is still employed by QR? Perhaps he fled once the training contract expired......

[Porkling]

What really sadden me about QR is that they really just throw people aside as if they are nothing more than dog :mad: stepped into on the sidewalk. As said in an early post, fatigue is a problem and watch out if they change your roster while you are away on ops and put you on a course on your return, taking away a rest day. If you say no, because you are fatigued, you can say goodbye to your job. As happened recently to a certain 777 Capt.

It doesn't matter how much you appeal and show them the evidence that they are wrong, they just circle the wagons against you and use all the might of a big, " money isn't an issue" corporation and crush you.

[angelorange]

I thought they were no longer after experienced aviators but now had their own CTC inspired 70 to 100h real flying then automated SIM MPL scheme - or was that just for locals?

[sentosa1942]

Unfortunately ( For me ) I have first hand knowledge of how they treat people at QR. Not only from people I know personally who have be treated diabolically, but how I was treated. While on annual leave I visited my own doctor who referred me to a surgical consultant who then advised me I required a small but relatively serious operation. I wrote on two separate occasions to inform my line manager of my need to under go a surgical procedure, he elected not to respond. The procedure require a two week recovery period which was fine as I was only rostered for being contactable. Without any formal or informal notification, my pay and staff travel was stopped along with all other privileges which made it impossible for me to return to Doha. After three months of continuously writing to my line manage, senior manages and HR management to resolve any misunderstanding and asking to be able to return to Doha to continue with my career. They choose to ignore my correspondence, it was only after I wrote and got angry did I receive and acknowledgement, informing me that they did not appreciate threaten Emails and this is when I first learnt they terminated me retrospectively accusing me of absconding. The whole matter is a complete fabrication and utter nonsense without any substance to their accusation, to date they have not provided me with any evidence they have of my absconding. Whereas, I have all my correspondence and evidence to show that I did not abscond. I had a great career with QR, plus my commitments I had out there. All my documents both flying Surely these are Not the actions of someone planning to abscond. This has left me destitute and my flying career in tatters. I had recently a slim opportunity for work but was required to be type rated on a new a/c or pay up front for the training, which is £15,000.00 which I do have. The only peace of luck is my wife has managed to secure work which pays the mortgage, but that short term.
My children don't understand what is going on and why Daddy is not in Doha flying.
So, for reasons which will always remain unknown to you, you can fall foul of these people and it doesn't matter what you say or do, there is little or no chance of a just outcome.
If I hadn't had my operation at the time I did, I was likely to have been taken ill while on ops and therefore cause bigger problems to my own health as well as problems for scheduling. All I had wanted was to have my op and return to Doha and continue flying.

[Iver]

sentosa1942,

Sounds like you will be better off no longer working for Qatar Airways. Appalling if true. Again, your health should be your first priority - there are other flying jobs out there.

Good luck.

[sentosa1942]

100 per cent true, I would not have posted it otherwise. Far too risky to make things up these days !!!!

[loc22550]

Not the first time...
Some pilots after reporting sick,have been called into the office to explain why they refused to operate a flight!:ugh:

[Fogrunner]

Having the two passports yes is ideal. What I have heard, when it is getting a little hot for some, they enter on their "other" passport as a tourist. Then if push comes to shove "see ya later".

Question is in that circumstance, goes without saying that you won't be welcomed back in Doha. What if you went to Dubai or Oman on holiday or tech stop. Would they send you on an all expenses paid one way ticket to Doha?

[Fogrunner]

The varicity of sentosa's statements are accurate. There are numerous horror stories like this concerning the 5star Goat. Take the A320 FO (ex-raf fastjet) who was terminated because the Capt had a tail strike in a go around below 100' because of wind shear. Reason, no sink rate call.

Al Baker wanted them both fired before they even returned to Doha.

[Flytdeck]

Cannot dispute the difficulties some may encounter at Qatar Airways, but must say that since my arrival over one year ago I have been treated with respect and my wife and I have enjoyed living here. We have not encountered any untoward behaviour and are satisfied we made a good choice joining this airline.

The initial "bumps" have been ironed out with the only major issue the problem with accommodation. The expected villa did not materialize and we were left to fend for ourselves after a very short period of time. The allowance does not adequately cover the current modest housing so we must supplement with our salary.

"Training" is different from previously encountered. Once one understands that every device and simulator session is actually an exam rather than teaching session, it makes it much easier. Come prepared and things go smoothly.

This is a young company and issues that crop up must be approached calmly and stubbornly. Different cultures have different attitudes toward dealing with problems. This must be respected with perseverance and patience utilised to see it through to the end. One ongoing issue that is affecting many pilots from North America is outstanding still at over nine months but slow progress is being made.

Rosters do vary month to month. Some months have been trying, others very relaxing. Though I do work harder than from previous employment, it is not overwhelming by any means. The pilots I work with are, with very few exceptions, experienced, well trained, positive, and keen. The aircraft are well maintained and clean. The cabin staff, if an effort is made to bridge the ever present "divide", are great to work with and, more importantly, intelligent and well trained. Their youth limits their experience in handling some problems, but the CSDs are well equipped to handle most cabin situations.

Adapting to living in the Gulf takes some, but applying the same techniques as to the workplace works well. To those considering accepting a position with Qatar Airways, I would suggest that if you come with a positive attitude, patience, and a high degree of motivation, you will do well here. The managers here are not perfect and will make mistakes though I believe their attitude toward people management will evolve in a positive way. Cultural differences will be an ongoing challenge but as the airline matures, they should become less of an issue.

So far, happy to be employed by this growing airline.

[sentosa1942]

Counterpoint, I am seriously and without prejudice very glad things have worked out well for you and your wife with QR. But please remember, I too arrived in Qatar just over a year ago with an equal amount of positive attitude, patience and extremely high degree of motivation, if not more. I was Very excited to be flying new modern fleet of aircraft. I encountered the same initials problems as you did, but on the whole you are left to sort issues out yourself. Be prepared for the bureaucracy, and be prepared if you should for any reason have a deference of opinion with one of the managers. The culture is different and yes we must adapt, but it certain is a BLAME BLAME culture and that makes for possible problems, as we all know ! However, it wasn't until I went on my annual leave and underwent a surgical operation that things went terrible wrong and I was treated appallingly. I am still in shock at what they did. I still believe that I should be out there working not looking for work. We all have our opinions and are entitled to them. What happened to me is 100% factual, I just hope it doesn't happen to you.
Good luck and keep enjoying your flying with QR as I am sure you will :ok:

[Flytdeck]

Sentosa:

I have heard your story from another source and fully agree that somewhere in the system, someone has been inexcusably derelict in their duty to Qatar Airways. Your case has been discussed frequently among the pilot group and some queries have been made as to how this could have come about.

Qatar Airways is not the first airline to make such a blunder, nor the last. For those considering joining, the fact that there is virtually no protection from persecution is a consideration. Unions or associations (definition by management) are not tolerated. The only very limited protection is the desire to keep the fleet airbourne.

Your case is a definite warning flag of what CAN happen here. It is not, I hope, the norm. Hope you have been able to secure both a better position and better treatment elsewhere. Those of us left here will inquire as to how a Human Resources department could have bunged up your case so badly. Hopefully some of the response will filter through to my lowly level (line pilot).

[chai ja]

Sorry to hear about your situation BC. Have you tried Air Hong Kong? RH ex EBJ is there, maybe worth getting in touch.

[jmn]

Hi,

Agree, 5 stars airline !, HR ?, Talent pool :confused:, SO fast track:ouch:, bla bla bla, etc..

[captplaystation]

Riders of Camels don't metamorphise into anything more cultured/decent/developed/admirable courtesy of money.

If y'all bear that in mind it should help with the initial decision whether to go there or not.



In case of disbelief, please substitute "racism" with "ability to see reality".

[Flytdeck]

Just to reiterate for those considering a move to Qatar Airways. Direct Entry Captains (DEC) likely have an easier time of it than those arriving as F/Os. The training is quite strict, often resembling ongoing examination rather than training. Most survive.

Just as you might encounter in any airline, there are those who are good to work with, and those who could use, shall we say, some remedial social interaction training :rolleyes:. We are living in a different culture and if one is patient, can adapt (except, possibly, to the driving). There are always those few who consider themselves above us "little people" and act accordingly. Unfortunately, they are the ones that stand out and tend to stick in our memories.

It has not been all that long since arriving to work here, but though there have been some challenges and frustrations, have found the working environment rewarding and enjoyable. The primary consideration to the quality of your life here will be your attitude. Come ready to exploit the good and discard the bad and it will be much better than expressed by others in this forum.

If things go sideways, however, be prepared for a hard landing. From what I have seen, second chances are rare unless one is willing to readily admit to an error (even if it may not be yours). For some, even this may not suffice to resuscitate ones job. :(

Might have to review this post in a year or so.;)

[fantom]

Wise words.

Much as I might have advised years ago when I went to KWI.

Read and learn.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

I realise that some poor souls simply have no choice but to join Qatar - family pressures, no other jobs etc. They have my deepest sympathy and I wish them well in their futures. However, the root cause of many pilots' problems at Qatar is a real lack of a reality check prior to going. There are innumerable warnings on the likes of PPRuNe about what you are getting into, but somehow people think it really cannot be that bad. It is the same mentality that some juries in the UK have when faced with some ghastly monster who has just raped 10 women and chopped them up - they cannot bring themselves to believe that someone can be that evil so they start believing the defence line that the chap who did it is really a good guy who had some problems at home, had a bad childhood etc. The frightening thing is that the juries buy it hook, line and sinker and find the guy mad rather than bad. It is exactly the same with Qatar - there are countless tales about Al Bakar (is that how you spell it?) and his totally deranged way of carrying on, but no one wants to believe it is true. The problem is that it is true and the man is nasty, unpleasant and crazy with it. Yet no one believes it until one day they find themselves victims of the guy and suddenly wake up and smell the coffee. Sadly it is all too late and their fate is sealed. May I therefore make a suggestion? Do not go there unless you have absolutely no other choice on this earth, rather than find out the hard way. It really is not rocket science.

[StinkyMonkey]

So, just to clarify, you're saying Joining QR is not a good idea? ;-)

[Black Pudding]

And one last point to remember

Most of the people who post on here have an axe to grind or are of the negative nature.

For all those that post negative things on here, many many more are happy to be in Doha, working, feeding their family and can not be arsed reading this forum. So please bare in mind that not everyone feels the same way that most who post here do.

Although what is posted here maybe true, you are only hearing mainly the negatives about Qatar and Qatar Airways. I fly with many many people who are sooo pleased to be here and know how lucky they are to have a job.

As mentioned before. Its the Middle East. If you remember that and prepare well for your training, keep your head down, you will be fine.

As mentioned before, if you don't like it, do your time, hand your notice in and leave.

If you already have a good job and happy, stay where you are.

If you want to move from Turbo Prop to a jet, here is a good place to do that.

If you have no job, here is a good place to come if you have nowhere else better to go.

If you are frightened of a bit of hard work, don't bother coming as you will fly a lot and mainly in the dark.

Take it or leave it. Whatever you decide, don't moan, very few are interested in listening to you, and in this I mean your colleagues.

[sentosa1942]

1. Why you should avoid Qatar Airways | Don't Fly Qatar Airways (http://www.dont-fly-qatarairways.co.uk/why-you-should-avoid-qatar-airways-2/)

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Flytdeck]

Good stories on this site though after being in this industry for MANY decades, find them a bit lame. Suspect that there is not a single major airline who does not have similar tales dogging their reputations. An airline employee would be the first to admit that things go off the rails. It is a complex business that depends on technology, trained employees, and even worse, Government co-operation. So what could go wrong? Qatar Airways isn't perfect, but in general, believe it is generally considered in a positive way by the majority of their customers. May be a wee bit prejudiced as they currently (and reliably) supply me with my monthly remuneration.

Not having met Mr. Akbar Al Baker, it would not be fair to provide you with an evaluation. Would be a bit surprised to find an individual who is capable of managing such an extensive empire to NOT be somewhat on edge.

In summary. So far would say this has been a positive place to work with the majority of people being excellent and with the expected few individuals requiring remedial humanity training. Fleets do NOT provide similar working conditions so can only relate my personal experience. Good aircraft with reasonable rosters and a reliable income at the end of the day. If things do not work out, well, there are other options out there. For the moment this is a satisfying and rewarding position. :ok:

[fantom]

Good, because one of my friends is joining next week.

Look after him and his family.

[Nomad787]

It looks like these people intend on taking QR to the cleaners. Well written articles with particular resonance for those who have had a bad experience with them. It looks like its about to launch a serious campaign. I will certainly be keeping an eye on the site Don't Fly Qatar Airways | Fake Star Airline! (http://www.dont-fly-qatarairways.co.uk/).

[captjns]

Name one airline, present or past, that has not been chastised by passengers, and crew. 5 star, one world, or whatever.

[Nomad787]

It true all airlines have some some negative feedback but not to the extent of QR. The 5 Star status awarded by Skytrax is meaningless (see the UK Advertising Standards Authority adjudication on Skytrax (http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2012/11/Skytrax-Research/SHP_ADJ_196416.aspx) ). This is a commercial business funded by advertising and airline membership. QR certainly have lots of money to spend. There is no transparency and it has been suggested that Airline of the Year and awards go the biggest contributors. Skytrax can is not regarded as independent and is very secretive . Ownership is not disclosed.

On employment relations front I get the distinct impression the regime is harsh and unforgiving. From reading these forums it looks like their is a culture of blame and fear. The accounts here show interference with personal freedoms, lack of compassion and an inclination to discard employees without much forethought.

[Flytdeck]

Hi Nomad:

That was exactly the impression I had. Took a chance and am now employed here. This is definitely not North American style management, neither is it as overbearing as many of those may indicate on this forum. Not sure who they are or where they are, but if they are actually here, would suggest that possibly they are the few.

This place does make it share of management faux-pas (would the new airport be a good example). There have been individuals who have not been treated well and the current managers are not trained or educated enough as administrators to be able to admit and then rectify their errors. Previous airlines have had the same problems.

Am unable to determine if this airline generates more customer complaints than any other though again, from previous experience, would strongly believe that this is not true. If you really want to review customer complaints, track American Airlines, Aeroflot, and more recently, Singapore. As for censorship, how about "the airline that shall not be named"?

Have heard the stories concerning Oxford for quite some time. It would be a shame if it was a "bought" award though after reading the article, am not convinced that this is so. Imagine the British press will be onto this in their usual bulldog manner and if true, we should see further articles supplying some actual proof if Qatar Airways collusion.

As I have stated in previous messages, Qatar Airways has been a pleasant place to work, so far. You have touched on some issues that are present, but not in any more abundance than other airlines. It is not perfect, but I have a lovely place to live, great aircraft to fly, reliable and almost adequate remuneration. The roster is tolerable and expectations reasonable. Not a bad skit in my estimation.

[Nomad787]

Flytdeck

You are beginning to sound like a PR spokesperson assigned for QR damage limitation. I am have no doubt you like living in Doha, you probably have never had it so good. I am glad you are over the moon with your employer but from this and other threads it seems your positive endorsements are the minority view.

The thread was started by somebody who wished to highlight issues from experience and forewarn people. Others a have relayed the appalling treatment they received including some whose lives and family lives have been seriously affected and you appear to be undermining them.

It is reasonable to reply and speak for yourself but to counterpoint every contribution you perceive as negative to QR looks like you are bum*icking your managers and you have told them Flytdeck is your username on this forum. I had to say that but I am sorry I said it because otherwise you do sound like a genuinely nice guy. Please stop vouching for these people so strongly. You've been with them a short while and eventually the odds are they will sc*ew you.

[Luke SkyToddler]

QR discussions on pprune always end up like this - the 320 guys and the FO's on all fleets give the place an absolute slagging, then a few 777 DEC's stick their heads above the parapets and say its not actually that bad. Both camps are of course telling the truth as it relates to them. There is a massive difference in roster patterns, lifestyle and the way the company treats you, according to the fleet and the seat that you are in.

But considering there have been numerous cases of people being promised widebody commands in the interview and then finding out when they got to Doha they were actually going on the 320, or being told they were just going in this "temporary" flea pit of an apartment until their villa was ready, and two years later still waiting, is it really a risk you want to take even for the DEC job?

[Nomad787]

Flytdeck having though about my earlier post I would like to apologise and retract it. Sorry! I sincerely mean it.

Luke SkyToddler you are right, they make promises and once they've got you there they renege on the agreement. If you speak up you are fired and blacklisted from entering the country. If you are unfairly dismissed you have no recourse to anything. Your agreement is under Qatari law. There is no independent judiciary. The owner of QR also owns the courts and the state. The truth is either take what you get and be quite or loose everything. If you understand this and accept it with your eyes fully open then that's fine. If you are hoodwinked and find out too late then you have reason to be angry and bitter. BTW any financial loss you make will not be recoverable.

[Flytdeck]

Nomad787: Apology accepted. For some reason these threads do tend to degenerate into personal name-calling. Nature of the medium I suppose.

Completely agree that one must come here fully prepared to abandon ship if contract measures are not fulfilled. The housing thing is a non-issue as we are expected to find our own accommodation on the allowance they are paying. Personally I found their inability to assist with housing location and negotiation very deficient. Hopefully this issue has been addressed.

Promises of fleet type and upgrades must be in writing and are legally binding, even in Qatari courts. Vague intimations of benefits do not cut it as they may be made in good faith yet not realized.

There is a definite difference between fleet types and I am happy to work on a wide body aircraft. Last summer was a bit rough, but it has been quite reasonable since last September. Not sure how long that will last with the new aircraft arriving. The narrow-body pilots do appear to work much more "diligently".

As mentioned before, management actions are not consistent and have led to individual actions far more severe than would be considered appropriate in western airlines. Not sure if this comes from the relative immaturity of this airline or the culture. There is definitely a level of paranoia not present elsewhere not only among the staff, but among the managers. This does add to the stress level on the line. Stress does not lend itself well to line operations and it often takes a bit of effort to overcome the "wall of suspicion", something that cannot be tolerated on a flight deck.

It is probably a good thing to have the occasional wide-body DEC "gophering" once in awhile. We certainly are not here to undermine anyone, only lend our individual perspective to the thread. Every pilot who elects to come here will face their own difficulties and achieve their own rewards. Coming from a legacy carrier, it is admittedly more work but unlike the previous company, I am assured there will be a paycheque every month. Working to THEIR rules and doing the necessary groundwork to stay current should keep the paycheques coming. There likely are easier and more forthcoming places to work, but for me, this is a pretty good gig.

[sentosa1942]

Interest read apparently a company has submitted a 10 page complaint against Qatar Airways and Skytrax to the Advertising Standards Authority.
7. False advertising/SKYTRAX - Don't Fly Qatar Airways (http://www.dont-fly-qatarairways.co.uk/skytrax-airline-ratings/). I

[Flytdeck]

Do not remember anyone claiming that they were ethical! ;)

[sentosa1942]

Ethics, what Ethics :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[salamalikum2]

Qatar airways always prone to increase the quality of live of the crew...:

-The possibility of bidding for 8 days off in a row has been recently removed!
Sure it will make a lot of people happy,especially the one with family abroad:\
( the only great think we had here in the roster)
Another step backward.

[CAT1]

I came here as DEC wide-body three years ago. A lot of what is written here is true, some seems exaggerated. My wife and myself maintained a positive attitude here until eventually it was worn down by a process of slow abrasion, and it was not the job that led to this. But I will start with a bit about the job.

If you do an unstable approach, and go-around, nothing will happen. If you land from an unstable approach, both of you are in line for the sack. In my time here I have had no problems at all at work, and if you do what the company wants and keep your opinions to yourself, it's a pretty easy job. The aircraft are reliable, the roster is manageable, and the day to day operation of the airline runs smoothly.
The training has improved markedly in the time I have been here, but there's still a few trainers who think the best way to train is to prove to you how well they know the manuals and how much cleverer they are than you.
As long as you understand that management are not in the least interested in individuals, you won't be disappointed. The vast majority of pilots here came because their previous employer went bankrupt. The company has no problem getting applications, and until this changes, their attitude will remain one of thinking that they are doing you a favour by employing you. The recent reduction to a maximum consecutive amount of days-off from 8 to 4 has no practical purpose whatsoever. Read into that what you will.

However, I'll not go on about working conditions any more, as that has been well covered in previous posts. For my wife and myself, the main issue is not the airline, but the location. Unless you like malls and getting drunk in very expensive hotel bars or nightclubs, there is very little to do here outside your home. If you have a high-maintenance wife, she'll love it, as there is plenty of bling to spend your money on.....not much else though.

The temperature is over 40 degrees for 6 months of the year, so you spend the vast majority of your time air-conditioned. The summers are so hot that people end up losing their sun-tans from never going outside. Walking anywhere is almost impossible due to no sidewalks, heat and dangerous traffic. The air quality is very poor year round and the dust gets absolutely everywhere - beware if you're an asthma sufferer.
During Ramadan, which is currently mid-summer, you will be arrested if you are seen drinking water, eating or smoking outside your house or even in your car during the day, so most people (including the locals) stay indoors in daylight hours for 4 weeks. The migrant workers on the roads and construction sites however are expected to work all day with no food or water, often with the inevitable consequences. Two years ago during Ramadan a guy knocked on our door with severe dehydration, and if we hadn't brought him in and given him some water I am not sure he would have survived much longer. The traffic is horrendous, and the standard of driving among the worst I have ever encountered (I include India and the whole of Africa in this assessment). Over-taking can and will happen from any lane (or from off-road) at any time, with no indicators used, often while half-way round a roundabout. White Land-cruisers will drive an inch behind you flashing their lights at you to move over, regardless of whether there is anywhere to move over to. The driver will most likely be talking on his mobile phone and have a kid in his lap while doing this. Cars will leave the road, drive along the dirt to pass a line of cars, and force their way in front of you, while pretending not to notice you. If you have an accident involving a local, it is your fault.
You need an exit visa to leave the country, and forget about a second passport, as if that does not show an entry stamp and tourist visa it won't get you out of the country. The badly-paid migrant workers who make up the vast majority of the population have absolutely no rights. If they abscond from their employer (who holds their passport) for any reason whatsoever, they will go to jail. If their employer does not give them written permission to leave the country, they cannot leave. They have no redress to any organisation that protects their human rights.

I could go on, but for anyone thinking of moving here. especially with a family, there's a lot more to consider than just the job or the company. A vast amount of wives do not make it past one year before returning home, leaving hubby to try and commute as best as possible (which has just been made more difficult by reducing the max consecutive days off from 8 to 4). I'd estimate at least 50% of married pilots here longer than one year (and that's probably a conservative estimate) are now here on their own. I'm one of the lucky ones, but it's getting close to me joining that 50%.....time to move on. The education allowance does not cover two kids school fees here, and places are hard to come by, so if you're moving here with kids you need to start looking at schooling sooner rather than later. One captain who joined recently had to pay a years school fees up front before his joining date, and the company has refused to reimburse him as he paid before his date of commencement of employment. Kids tend to like it here until they reach about 14-15 yrs old, at which point they seem to suddenly turn to hating it.

For single folks, life here is much easier, and if you are young and like partying, restaurants, and malls (and are not particularly interested in saving money), it's probably not too bad.

Overall it's an extremely false existence in a materialistic world and any exonerating factors pall very quickly.

[oceancrosser]

Good assessment CAT1, sounds like most of the ME region to me. Modern day slavery.

[salamalikum2]

100% true ...from A to Z cat1.

[Nomad787]

CAT1 I am sure much of your post will resonate with many here. The plight of migrant workers has been highlighted by a number of Human Rights organisations but as stated in your post they have no recourse whilst in the country. They do not have freedom or liberty in any sense of the word.

In cases where pilots are sacked the pay entitlement is withheld and as the contracts are under Qatari they cannot be enforced in law. Mr Al Baker is a very unsympathetic and runs the airline as with an iron fist and very little consideration.

I would say the lifestyle in Qatar is pretty much as described in the post. I have had a message from the Don't Fly Qatar Airways website and they have asked in if there are any pilots and staff who have been treated unfairly and wish to go on the record. If so please pm me and I will get u in touch.

[NIKOLA]

Iam due for qatar airways 2ed officer interview and i heard the interview system has been change to PSA test plus new written exam
I appreciate. If any one can pass some informations

[rogeriouzz]

Hi Guys...

Anyone knows about the content of new PSA(Pilot Suitability Assessment) that QR are using now..?
I received a mail requesting to complete this test, so, i am waiting for some new inforation about it content.

I will appreciate any information

[rogeriouzz]

Like nobody helps me, i had to do it, and this is what i see:
3 blocks of questions, Yes or No.. Almost 180-200 question each block...
Psycho questions like "Do you like party everyday?, do you like to be famous?, do you like to drive fast?, do you like adventure sports?, do you like to work in team?"
All these questions made repeteadly and in a several different ways with same meaning!.
Be careful to do not fall in the trap!.

[slowjet]

Roger, you probably did very well because nobody helped you ! The "cheat" mentality in the industry is phenominal. Every one dashing around looking for answers to interviews, sim tests, renewals and psych tests. For the latter, remember, there is often no correct answer. Instead, a personality profile is built up through consistency. Flit about with answers you may "think" are correct and an inaccuarate picture will result. BE YOURSELF.

My last type conversion was with a cheater. He managed to get hold of the sim profiles handed to the instructors. He offerd them to me. I declined, rather bravely, claiming that I preferred to "know" the aircraft rather than give the impression, falsely, that I did. Of course he whizzed through everything with grade "A" 's. I needed several repeats but in exchange, got some seriously good instruction. I never felt comfortable Dead Heading behind him in J !!

[FLY007]

So the FO have to do more flights than the Capt on the long haul a/c due to the difference of logbook hours ? Does this mean an extra trip per month? Anyone had more recent experience ie this year?