Turkish Airlines

[hibdulus]

Hi everyone,
I just passed my interview in Turkish Airlines as an F/O on the B737.

I am very confused for my choice as many people say it's a very nice place and environment to go for, someone else, especially on the web, says exactly the opposite.

First of all I have been told that I will not be given any contract until I am out of my current airline and have obtained my work permit.
Is this a normal practise? Can I trust them?



If anyone is working for them already I would like to know some key information:


- Actual possibility for Command upgrade or/and Long hault after some time
(is the same waiting list used for locals and expats?)

- Roster and actual sample of a "standard day" in Turkish (B737).
( Is it 5/2 - 6/1? Are the days normally very long? Is there enough spare time for oneself? )

- Overnights during the working days and how many to expect (nice places, nice colleagues to spend time with or not really?)

- SOPs. Are they at a good standard or are they very easygoing, not too sticking to the rules etc?

- Taxes and pension: is it possible to transfer everything back to another European country if leaving Turkey?

- Future. Are other companies considering pilots from Turkish very good pilots or is their standard not really well liked around the world?


Sorry guys for asking so many questions but I have to take an importat decision and I need as many information as possible, due to the lack of info received by the Airline.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your help!

[TypeIV]

I don't work at THY but from my experiences and what I've heard:

- If there is a very big need for upgrades and they cannot find turkish people to upgrade, you might be upgraded but if you only have a high school diploma it will probably not be coming unless things change. Do not go there for a nice long comfy career, go there to collect money, enjoy a different culture, make some hours without expecting too much. Turkey is very different from Europe.

- About the rosters I don't know anymore but you work alot and expect alot of changes with a short notice. There are alot of nightstops and some days are very long.

- Alot of night stops, some places are really nice like in central Europe but also mogadishu, Uganda, Rwanda, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria etc. THY crew is very arrogant but as a pilot you will be respected by everyone except the captain. You will understand what i mean during the line training :E

- Adherence to SOP, rules, CRM, english skills, common sence etc is not what you are used to if you are from Europe but things are improving slowly.

- About pension, I don't know but making a money transfer is very cheap and you get paid pretty much tax-free. It depends on your home country wether you have to pay tax on what you transfer home. But sending it home is not a problem. Your salary will be very good and costs of living can be kept low unless you buy a car.

- With new EASA rules you will most likely have to transfer your license to a Turkish DGCA one. That will yield problems in the future if your license is a JAR/EASA at the moment. It's a major flag carrier so from that point of view it's nice, but the Turkish CRM is famous for being Captains resource management. Chances of transfer to 777 is not that bad if your english is really good. But you need some luck.

All in all, it's a good deal for a first officer. Turkey is very different and can be really nice if you are open minded. Don't expect to be treated like in Europe where you have alot of rights and not as many responsibilities. In Turkey you have no rights and alot of responsibilities. Food is nice and cost of living is low unless you buy a car. People are very friendly and helpful but will take advantage of you later if you do not show alot of character.

[Kirks gusset]

The eligibility for command is only with a degree and you need min 4500hrs, 5 years experience in civil aviation to be considered. The chances of non- turkish getting upgraded is small, but may change, expect 7 years to command if you are a new joiner. There are some transfers to long haul fleet, but some Turkish Captains are just doing this after 16 years with the company, some FOs moved over after 5/6 years, they will wait another few years for upgrade on 330 or 777. Salary is taxed at 5% and the rest is up to you to do what you want with, you are effectively ex-pat so you should not be taxed in your own country as you will not be home often enough. Roster is set as you stated, some days are 16/17 hrs with positioning but FDT is only 13 or 14 max. SOPs are good but CRM as an FO may be difficult with some older ex military guys, it is improving for FOs we are told. The atmosphere is not as relaxed as Europe and expect some Captains to treat you like a resource. If you are a sloppy operator you will be shredded quickly. Turkish aviation is complex and some airfields are tricky so the game can be high, other companies know this and respect pilots from this environment. You will fly on your national licence with a" permission to fly" letter from the DGCA as no more validations are issued.. with EASA there is some talk, just talk, of DGCA issuing Turkish licence, in this case you will need to preserve your national licence by LST at your expense, much as they do in Hong Kong. Tax is low and costs of living are lower then Europe, cars and phones expensive and you can only have one " foreign" phone every two years or it gets blocked on the network. Most guys bite the bullet and get a Turkish mobile on Pay and Go as you cannot get a contract.

[hibdulus]

Thank you guys!!
Very useful info.

If by chance anyone else who is in the company as well has any more information to add I'll take them as I am making up my mind and it is taking a while.

For example, does anyone know what PERMANENT contract means in Turkey? Is it true that they can say good bye in 45 days and then you are off?

Is anyone iside the company and can tell me if he/she has ever seen eny expact actually upgrading or moving to long hault?

[TypeIV]

Some people have been upgraded to long haul, it's impossible to say. You may very well be stuck on the short haul depending on future needs.

Regarding a contract's permanency, I can tell you this, it's worth less than the paper it is written on.

If they do not want you, they will simply not renew your working permit among other tricks commonly used in Turkey. Forget about appealing, courts, rights and similiar stuff. Failing inconvenient people in the simulator is very common as well. If they decide to bend you over they will and as a foreigner this will be the cause several times during your stay, wich is why you have to go in with open eyes and not expect to much and not plan far too much ahead.

[captplaystation]

I had two Capt colleagues who went there on a "2 year" contract (which had to be renewed annually ).

It was (conveniently)364 days long, so, when not renewed, they were told Goodbye, with no holiday pay/furniture to sell/rental contract (with paid deposit that they couldn't get back ) for apartment etc. In short, sold down the river.

I had a bad experience with another Turkish company, and would categorise this as ops normal in that country.
CRM ? don't even start that discussion :=

[B737Capitano]

It is normal process for all their expats and there are many that had gone through the same. I am not working for THY but few friends are and all had to trust them, so I guess if you want the job that you need to make that decission!

[hibdulus]

Thank you very much guys, very useful info!!

I will take all of them into consideration before taking my final decision!!

[Iver]

Not as familiar with Turkey from a job perspective, but how is it that THY cannot source "suitable" pilots from other Turkish operators like Pegasus, Sun Express, Atlas and Sky Airways? Vast majority of those pilots are Turkish and they all fly advanced equipment like 737NG and Airbus. So, if THY is so great, why do many of these other airline pilots not flock to it if they meet minimum qualifications? Is it simply that THY growing so fast that it now needs more non-Turkish pilots? Or are pilots from other Turkish carriers deciding to pass on opportunities with THY? Why wouldn't a qualified 737NG pilot from Pegasus want to move on to THY?

I am a big fan of the country - I have just heard mixed views about working there...

Cheers

[joker737]

I personally wouldn't move from SXS to Turkish! Yes Turkish airlines is a very goood outfit to work for and has a very good package & good pay but the feel at home at Sunexpress can't beat anything! It has the German culture embedded to the company! Plus with Turkish your stuck with only one base (IST)! So for someone who likes living a quite life outside the main city.. THY isn't the place to be!

[SloppyJoe]

need to preserve your national licence by LST at your expense, much as they do in Hong Kong.

Not relevant to the tread but this is not correct. In HKG you get a stand alone HKG license.

[TypeIV]

Sxs and thy have a common agreement on not letting people go from sxs to thy. The FOs would be flocking if they had the chance to double their pay, provisions on flying long haul and not flying Anadolujet domestic operations. They have a punishment system for people trying to go, unless you have some heavy names behind you holding your back.

[Kirks gusset]

Sloppy, this is what I was stating! in Turkey at the moment you fly on your national licence with " letter of permission" not a " validation" BUT.. to avoid the EASA mess it would be practical to issue a " Turkish DGCA Licence" not as the system is now... as for it not being relevant , try asking the guys sent away as the types could not be endorsed, also the " contract" states the " Pilots" are responsible for maintaining their licences, if you cannot fly, they will sack you.In my humble opinion, being potentially sacked is highly relevant when making a career decision! Anyway, handbags away, the jury is out in Turkey on EASA and some training courses are modified for just the Turkish nationals now, the foreigners are not paid until they start training...but THY expect you to be "available" if you have deep pockets it's fine,but for some it's not so easy to take an extended holiday in Turkey.

[joker737]

Does anyone know what's going to happen with EASA and Turkey? Is Turkey going to remain JAR or end up setting you EASA standards and signing up to be a EASA member country!

[safelife]

Turkey can't be EASA member as they aren't Europe, and they also can't be JAR in the future because the JAR rules will not be amended in the future as the JAa doesn't exist any more.
So it will be all local rules again.

[No RYR for me]

Sxs and thy have a common agreement on not letting people go from sxs to thy. err a group of SXS guys just moved to THY hence SXS was recruiting.... The common agreement is that when THY need people they talk to SXS and than they can move over no problem.

[Kirks gusset]

Joker, as far as I am aware no non-Turkish hold Turkish DGCA licences, the foreign pilots are flying on their own licences with a " Permission to fly" not a " validation. ( some dual nationality guys have both German and Turkish licences) IF, and it is IF! the DGCA give non- nationals Turkish licences then the EASA state members can retain their own licences but re-validation of type ratings will have to be done by an EASA approved ATO or Examiner, presumably at the cost to the individual concerned as the Company will have no obligation to do this. At the moment, UK licence holders will need their revalidation done outside Turkey and this will be the same for Swiss and Hungry from 8th April, Germany and rest of EU will follow later in year.

[3pointlanding]

I have a home in Istanbul and I bought in 1992. I live on the Asian side and the commute to Ataturk is a bitch. You might want to look on the European side which is closer to the airport. You would enjoy living in Turkey. They people are nice, the traffic horrific (hence the commute to the airport), the weather not so bad. IST is one of the "hot spots" for vacation according to travel magazines. Plenty of culture, great food, plenty of pleasure activities and you can fly to Antolya or Izmir for $25. I keep a bank account in Turkey and I drew 9.5% interest. It is now 7.5% and I have no plans of moving my money. Enjoy your time there. It is a great ride and stay onthe pony as long as you can. It will be worth it. Oh, and don't worry about taxes. They are quite low for expats.

[flash48]

In case of Sunexpress has enough pilot at home, THY always prefers to get pilots from Sunexpress. As far as i know, more than 20 pilots joined THY from Sunexpress during last year.

[TypeIV]

They joined because SXS were forced to kick foreigners out due to limitations in how many foreign first officers that are allowed. The locals that went to Turkish did it because they had good connections within.

Applying as a turkish SXS-FO can cause you alot of troubles if you do not have the forementioned connections in TK management or in politics.

[CGOFL]

Hi all
is there any uk pilot working for turkish airlines would they kindly please help us to understand how do they do their lpc or if they are to get new type rating done in turkish airlines and would the new type rating done by turkish airlines accepted by uk caa under the new Easa regulatıons ?

Thank you in advance

[MD11Man]

On a different note, I'm about to enter the selection there and have not been told what paperwork to bring.

Can anyone help me out?

Thanks!

[Mac72]

Been offered interview as an FI with possibility to move to RHS after 2 years.
Can anyone tell me what are the living condition in Istambul.

[Green Guard]

definitely much better then any in UK...;)

[TypeIV]

I heard that there will be payrises for the cabin crew. Does anyone know if this will affect the cockpit as well?

Mac: in the UK the food is sh**, girls weigh alot, taxes and security ridiculous and the weather is rubbish. İstanbul is the opposite :8

[captplaystation]

In the UK CRM isn't just a box you tick on an induction course, the Capt doesn't (always) believe he is god, SOP's are not just a paragraph to be ignored in a manual, you can (almost) drink the tap water, you may be able to commute from LHR to LGW in less than a day (try that between your 2 "bases" in Istanbul) you might have more than 2 days off consecutively. . . but go ahead, I am sure you wll love working with the ex Turkish AF sky-gods :hmm:

[archer_737]

captplaystation

Could you explain a bit more of your own experience regarding the "Turkish AF sky-gods"?

Much appreciated.

[clearedfortaxi]

Can anyone shed any light on the timescales please.

How long after your interview did you find out about the outcome.
And if the answer was Positive, how long after were you able to start the course.

[Boeing Europe]

Hi guys , I have just applied via the THY website as the agencys will not accept my application s I do not have the 1500 hrs on C over 27 ton , do has anyone have any idea as whether they have hired guys with less than the minimums before or are they very very strict like EK etc??

[Spanish123]

@Boeing Europe

How did you apply through THY website, they ask for T.C social numbers, do you have it? Turkish citizen? Just wondering.

[Boeing Europe]

They did not ask for Turkish social numbers... it was actually very straight forward

[Kirks gusset]

Boeing, they hired people with less than 1500 hrs > 27t, many ex SXS FOs, some only had 300 TT and now LFT Students will come directly on the 777 and 330 fleets as FOs.. the difference is these companies are all related:) To be employed as an "external" candidate you will probably need the 1500 hrs I'm afraid. Although not relevant to you, The DGCA regulations I believe required non JAR licence holders to have 1500 TT minimum. On the other hand as there is no more JAR in UK you could also be a problem as THY know that the UK CAA does not accept the TRTO training, whereas the rest of Europe does until end 2013 Good old UK CAA again! There is a requirement to reduce foreign FO numbers to max 25% by July and 10% by end of the year, no restrictions for Captains at this time. Across the Companies there are over 200 Pilots in training and 600 plus sent CVs.

[Simeonov]

What's the reason THY will reduce the foreign FOs.Does it mean that the airline will fire a lot of FOs?

[captplaystation]

A heads-up on the idealogy/regime you are clamouring to be part of



BBC News - Turkey clashes: Erdogan says protests 'are not Turkish Spring' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22753418)

[archer_737]

Oh yeah, got you're point.
If I apply to EK I'll be part of the non-democrathic monarchy. If I apply to Iberia I will become part of the insane government and if I apply to BA I will become a member of the British Royal family.

Man, the greatest post in pprune so far.

BoeingEurope, yes, they will ask you for the 1500hrs.

[captplaystation]

Badly phrased on my part , read "clamouring to live amongst".

I always laugh when the job is advertised by agencies as "European". . well, technically speaking one of your bases is, but they should try spending some time there before advertising it as such. But, as I said "come on in the waters lovely" & come back in 1 year & tell us about it.

[archer_737]

Well, as for now, we only have 1 base (that can change anytime).

I've been flying here for 6 months now, so even if my experience isn't so long here I can say that I've been flying nice rosters with 80% of my biddings given to me and with really nice folks having a really good salary, which, by the way, was increased 18% when I joined the company and will increase in June by 5% (will be paid retroactively for the last 5 months starting in January) and after July another 3%.

[pilotonrequest]

Hi,
I've been invited for an assessment with turkish airlines for the flight instructor job for their academy.
During the week of interview what should i expect ?
thanks in advance for the help.

[archer_737]

Of course YES.

But that won't happen.