WiFi ... again!

[Cornish Jack]

G'day all.
Does anyone know of a wi fi router which can be purchased, received, unpacked, plugged-in, powered up and will provide constant connection on standard adaptors WITHOUT having to undertake a language course of 'Geek-Speak gobbledy gook'?
I am AGAIN attempting to get internet connection via wifi link to a router (which connects perfectly on ethernet cable) but which refuses to make a wireless connection, citing 'authentication problem'.Over the past 10 years, or so, I have attempted this feat with a number of different routers with a (non-repeatable) success rate of approximately 5%!:yuk: The routers - BT, Orange, Thomson, D-Link et al have all worked when cable connected and ALL either failed or were totally unreliable for wireless communication. Querying the symptoms on-line, produces a totally unhelpful collection of aforementioned Geek-Speak, acronyms and associated 'unwisdom'. Allowing my ISP to remotely attempt a fix was similarly unsuccessful. Particularly galling is that the devices can 'see' and connect to other local 'hot-spots' but the signal strength is unusable.
Is it REALLY not possible to purchase a SIMPLE device to accomplish this?

[mixture]

Is it REALLY not possible to purchase a SIMPLE device to accomplish this?

I think you misunderstand the problem entirely.

Its not so much throwing "a box that works" at the problem, but rather you having to make the time and effort to understand the local factors that will greatly affect WiFi quality. Until you take the time to do that, no matter how much money you throw at a WiFi base station, you will likely continue to have disappoint results if you set it up wrong.

Google will doubtless throw up a suitable number of results for what needs to happen if you wish to do a DIY WiFi site survey.

Just one example of many of a local factor.... modern stud walls with foiled backs will have a very undesirable effect on your WiFi signal. Your choice of signal channel is another example, for example if you've got a bunch of neighbors on channel X and your kit is also configured for channel X its going to be one big digital bunfight !

But there are hundreds of possible local factors, far too many to even start listing here .... so either do your homework, or pay a reputable company to come do a survey.

Personally I am a great proponent of structured cabling where possible rather than jumping on the WiFi bandwagon. Speeds will always be greater over physical cable and reliability over physical cable will be a lot better for the majority of people. But I understand many people prefer wifi and so they just need to put the effort into a proper survey and implement the results correctly.

[Mike-Bracknell]

Dear Cornish Jack.

Wireless is not simple and never has been.

Consider that you can have a bunch of things affecting your radio waves, much like listening to a radio station and someone in a taxi parks up outside and keys up their CB radio. As a result of that, and the fact that your house is not likely to have been designed for wifi, means that you get NO guarantees of anything at all.

Now, with that said, wifi is actually one of the simpler forms of communication to understand:

You have a radio spectrum with 14 "channels" which sit next to each other in that spectrum. These channels are NOT identical the world over because, for example, the US Military demands use of some of the higher ones over in their country, whereas Japan etc has channel 14 and we in Europe don't.

You WILL get interference on your wifi connection if someone else in broadcastable distance is within 2 channels either way of your wifi in the spectrum (e.g. if you've chosen channel 6 then anyone broadcasting wifi on channels 4 to 8 will to a greater or lesser extent interfere with you).

(use a program called InSSIDer which is a free download to understand this more).

Wifi is a 2-way broadcast. Hence you have a wifi access point (typically your plethora of routers) AND you have your laptop or other wireless device. They don't just 'listen' but 'talk' as well, so don't forget that this may be some of the reason for issues in wifi as well (such as the recent Apple issues with firmware updates etc).

Wifi comes in several flavours, (802.11a, 802.11b, 802.11g, 802.11n, 802.11ac, etc) the most popular currently are 802.11g and 802.11n which give 54 and 150/300 mbit/s throughput. You need to match the output from your access point with the flavour of wifi your device wants to talk (or rather the other way round usually).

Now, you can broadcast your wifi out from your access point, but if you don't secure it with something then anyone and everyone can connect to it and use it (which is not generally a good idea), hence there is a logical layer of security overlaid on the top of wifi, and most of the time it'll be an incompatibility with negotiating security that'll give you problems.

There are 3 types of security in popular use:

WEP
WPA
WPA2

WEP is deprecated. Don't use it.
WPA is sort of deprecated too. If you have a choice between that and WPA2 then go WPA2, but if it's WPA or WEP then choose WPA (and if it doesn't include WPA2 then that might show that you need to look at a newer wireless device)
WPA2 is the security encryption of choice.

Along with that sort of security you get subsets of how you want it implemented, e.g. "pre-shared key, RADIUS server, certificate" etc. For 99.999% of all home users you want "pre-shared key" (which means that you program in a passphrase or key into the access point and you need to match that in the wireless device as well when you try and connect so that it negotiates a match and allows connection).

The management summary of the previous 3 paragraphs is to use WPA2/Pre-shared Key and choose "AES" instead of "TKIP" as another setting it'll ask you.

So, once you have all the above set in any access point and connect a device to it, it should work successfully.

Other things you may need to know about wireless are:

SSID is the broadcasted name of your wireless point - it can be set to anything you like. You may even get the opportunity to set several (but unless you know what you're doing, stick to the first one only).

Your passphrase (pre-shared key) can be anything you like, as long as it's over 8 characters. Ignore the techie guys here who'll argue the toss about security, as anything other than a dictionary-based word will require the would-be hacker to park a Cray outside your house for years before they crack it....and for what? a home broadband connection?

Incidentally, there IS a protocol called WPS which might be what you think you're after. However, it's a better marketing tool than a reality as it's not exactly ideal. Wi-Fi Protected Setup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi_Protected_Setup)

Now, armed with a lot more information than you possibly had previously about wifi, do you feel a little more like tackling the problem you have?

I'd hazard a guess that you weren't aware that wifi is a 2-way discussion, and that if you're replacing router after router you haven't looked at the other end which is possibly your wifi-enabled laptop or iPad etc.

Anyway, if you have issues, jot them down in as much detail as you can manage (detail helps us troubleshoot), and i'm sure any of us who know enough about wifi will give you a hand.

Cheers,
Mike.

[mixture]

Ignore the techie guys here who'll argue the toss about security, as anything other than a dictionary-based word will require the would-be hacker to park a Cray outside your house for years before they crack it....and for what? a home broadband connection?

Go wash your mouth out with soap young man.

A dictionary attack doesn't take long with a processor boost provided by average modern GPU found in even the most modest of laptops.

Put a little bit of effort into your passwords.... the addition of a symbol and number (or two) won't harm most people's ability to remember a password !

Plus its good habit training. If they can't manage to come up with a reasonable Wifi password, god forbid what they're using for online banking !

[Mike-Bracknell]

Did you read the bit which said "anything other than a dictionary-based word"?

[Cornish Jack]

Thank you gentlemen, especially Mike-Bracknell for the detailed reply. Unfortunately, the answer to the question appears to be ... NO!
The information which Mike provided I have been aware of (note - not understood!) for some time. Wifi routers have, similarly, been around for a long time. The plethora of wifi gadgets on the market over the last few years especially the almost ubiquitous smartphones and tablets would seem to predicate a NEED for a truly simple connection device for the non-professional home user - hence my original question.
My constantly recurring stumbling block i.e. "Authentication problem" when queried via Google or somesuch produces responses which are as useful as ashtrays on motorcycles. ..."Click on the wireless networks icon" ... no such icon is present!!! Google that and the MS help pages move into chocolate fireguard territory!:confused:
I have, long since, given up trying to wirelessly connect my two laptops (Dell and Advent) but have just bought a Nexus 4 for SWMBO's birthday (and another for me!) and foolishly thought that the situation might have changed:O
Seems that I shall have to tell her to use it as a pocket computer and forget any thoughts of internet connection:sad:

[Mike-Bracknell]

Jack,

Part of the reason is that the standards weren't originally created tightly enough. This leads to interpretation, which leads to incompatibility between vendors. This has certainly affected security standards WEP (sorry, I think I said WAP in my previous post) and WPA, however WPA2 seems to be a bit more resilient as standards go.

Discussions with a friend at Netgear point to the wifi consortium centralising around easier settings, which include WPA2/PSK/AES (PSK = Pre-Shared Key).

I would suggest you go tinker with your wifi access point, call it a different SSID (because Windows remembers the settings of previous SSIDs unless you get it to specifically forget them), choose channel 6, with 802.11g/n and set it to WPA2/PSK/AES, and see how you get on with connecting. It doesn't theoretically matter so much that you understand the wifi technology, but setting to those settings should help overcome most eventualities.

Cheers,
Mike.

[ShyTorque]

Never mind all that tech speak. You're just jinxed, mate. My wife is the same. Put her anywhere near a computer and it goes wrong, often in minutes. :p

Hope you get it fixed - have you tried a witch doctor yet?

[Milo Minderbinder]

Theres an important point here
It isn't expensive to get someone to come and fix this for you. It will be around an hours labour at most, so around 50 quid plus parts

Plenty of people who could do it, but if you want some idea about who you're inviting into your house, look at
Computer Repair for PC and Mac across the UK (http://www.pciq.com/)
Plug in your post code, see who is available local to you, read the reviews then send them a job request.

Note to Mods - this isn't meant as an advertising shot, I just think this is a case where the OP needs some direction

[mixture]

Did you read the bit which said "anything other than a dictionary-based word"?

Probably not, but then its is Saturday and I was up until 1am yesterday ! :E

[Keef]

I know how Jack feels, from the other side. I get calls from local folks who "just can't" get their wifi to work. I go round there with a spare modem/router (an old Netgear that's been all over the place with me), a Cat5 cable, and my iPad.

I put the Netgear next to their modem/router, just to show theirs that I mean business. Then I "sniff" the wifi using WiFiFoFum on my iPad. That usually reveals three or four wifi stations round about, mostly on the same channel.

Then I go to their (wired) PC or connect their laptop with the Cat5 cable, access the router, change the SSID to something they'll recognise, and move it to a channel where there's nothing else nearby. I set a WPA2 (or best available) password that's something they'll remember, with a number on the end.

Then I connect their wireless device to that, have a cup of coffee, and go home. Elapsed time between 30 and 45 minutes depending on how hot the coffee is.

I've never yet had to lend them my old Netgear, and never (yet) failed to get it working.

It's a logical sequence of things to do - if you don't understand, get someone who does to talk you through it. You do need to know enough to access the relevant bits of the router: it's not very likely to work "out of the box".

[mixture]

Just to illustrate the potential for channel conflict, here is an example scan for a relatively busy site, as you can see, if, for example, your kit was on channel 11, you might have a tough time with interference......

http://s18.postimage.org/pwo4em8eh/WIFI.png

[ShyTorque]

I'd agree. I've had four different Wifi setups here in the past (including a Devolo range extender) and they all seemed to be set to Channel 6 out of the box. So, it appeared, was everyone else's in range of my laptop.

Although my Wifi still worked, changing the channel to a "vacant" one sped the connection up quite noticeably.

[Cornish Jack]

Thank you all again. Did someone mention witchcraft? Following my previous, I (yet again!!!!) opened up the router config pages and for the umpteenth time tried to delete the protection function i.e. NO authentication. Applied selection and IT WORKED!!!:D Why? Who knows? I am tempted to leave the thing "unprotected" - can't really visualise flocks of baddies converging on a tiny coastal village to snatch a few minutes of free airtime. Any way there is another site (unprotected) for a local amenity which might appear to be a better target!:E
To return to the original question, again the responses seem to indicate that it is acceptable to offer for sale an item which has a fair chance of failing to work and which will require technical assistance as a matter of course. Mike clearly identifies the reasons why but there would appear to be no impetus to improve the situation.
I tend to view proprietary goods, when new, as PnP, whether computer peripherals or not. One could be forgiven for getting a bit ratty if, for instance, a portable radio required the attendance of an electrical engineer before being able to listen. Somehow the wifi router has managed to enter the mainstream without any such customer complaints or, when such ARE made, the response is to point to professional help. Any other examples of such cavalier treatment of customers? :=

[Guest 112233]

Re the advice to get local help re Wi Fi - The problem is that the communication is both two way and complex; Its not a broadcast medium like say television or radio (Even those modes can be complex in their way).

Authentication of Wireless is complex. It involves a series of both initial and on going "hand shaking" protocols (rules of engagement) between your router and PC.

Any number of devices share the 2.4 GHz band (802.11g) and if you are using the later type of Wi Fi operating at about 5 GHz (802.11n) your (cottage?/ New build / Al thermally insulated ) walls may present a problem for example.

That's where the local expert comes into his/her own.

It can be difficult to pin down the exact problem - All the on-line advice in the world, although well intended, cannot exactly match your circumstances.

I know from miserable experience. (its worth getting paid for advice)

CAT III

[Milo Minderbinder]

well, clearly hundreds of thousands of customers ARE out there using wifi routers which they set up themselves with no help at all other than that given in the setup instructions
which clearly indicates something peculiar about your circumstance.......either a strangeness about your physical environment, or a misunderstanding of the setup instructions....
given that its now connecting, but insecurely it rather looks like the latter is the problem

now some questions
which router are you using? Is it ISP supplied or self-purchased? Which ISP?
what hardware are you trying to connect to it (i.e. make/model/operating systems)

[mixture]

I am tempted to leave the thing "unprotected" - can't really visualise flocks of baddies converging on a tiny coastal village to snatch a few minutes of free airtime. Any way there is another site (unprotected) for a local amenity which might appear to be a better target!

Dear oh dear...... :ugh:

(1) Many opportunities for man in the middle attacks against you and people getting hold of your authentication credentials for online banking and other secure activities you would rather they would not.

(2) It only takes a few minutes of someone downloading kiddy porn via your internet connection for you to find yourself in a whole host of legal trouble. Sure you may be innocent..... but do you really want to loose hours and days of your life explaining that to the authorities ?

Don't be lazy. Setup WPA2 AES .... its not that difficult.

[Cornish Jack]

Milo and Mixture, thank you. Point well made re. security so I'd better stir my stumps and wade into the murky waters - yet again. At least now there is a slight hope of getting back to (insecure) dry land!
Milo - router is an ISP provided Thomson. ISP is Plusnet and I'm using them after previously AOL, BT, Orange, Tiscali and TalkTalk - all of which were, or became, rubbish!
Main computer is an HP Pavilion running XP with 4Gb and ethernet wired for internet. SWMBO's machine is a Compaq small desktop, 1.5Gb XP Pro also hard wired. The machines for Wifi are a Dell Expiron 2 Gb on XP Pro (dual boot Suse Linux) and an Advent 96Mb!!!! on XP Pro plus the two new LG Nexus 4s - an 8Gb and a 16Gb.
Before I venture into the security underworld, I have tried the Nexus and it works fine in the main bedroom which is about as far as I need in this house.
Back to the fray and I'll let you know what happens - if I don't just throw the whole lot into the North Sea!!:ugh:

[Milo Minderbinder]

does it make any difference to the other machines whether the Dell Inspiron is turned on or not?
I've come across several cases in the past where the Dell wireless card fitted in some of these totally drowns out the signal for all other nearby equipment.
And are you sure you have the correct drivers installed on it? The fact you've got it dual booting with SuSE indicates you've reloaded it yourself, and generally the Dell website list multiple options for wifi drivers for different iterations of the same model. The only way to make sure you have the correct one is trial and error....

As to the Advent....only 96Mb RAM? You're lucky that runs at all with XP. Trying to get wireless to work on that would be hit and miss. What Advent model is it? I'd guess that its only got a -B capability, which would drag down the entire network, and probably is only capable of WEP not WPA
Give me the Advent model number, and if possible the manufacturers model number (usually a letter / number sequence on the bottom plate like A360 or A360+). Advent don't make these - they simply rebadge from other suppliers. I'd guess that an Advent of this age was made by FIC, but lets see.

[Cornish Jack]

Milo - thank you again.
A quick update ... spent an hour plus attempting to connect wirelessly on the Dell with two different adaptors - no joy. Reconfigured the router to WPA PSK security and the Nexus couldn't connect either!! A further reconfig to WEP and the Nexus is back in business - I read your last while on that connection.
I much appreciate your efforts to make useful sense of this problem but given that my primary concern, at the moment, is to make sure that SWMBO can use her new toy for browsing, I think I shall 'quit while I'm ahead'!:ok:
There are, obviously, issues with the laptops and, given that I can hook them up on ethernet cable, if needed, I'll give my rapidly reducing brain cells a rest!
Again, thank you.

[Guest 112233]

I've just had a brainwave about Electro magnetic interference.

Without giving your location away to the whole world (OK PPrune) does your location mean that you are close to sources of microwave transmissions like L band Radars from ships or shore bases (1 - 2 GHz) or DAB audio transmitters. A bit of a long shot but a maybe, DAB transmissions are a bit lower in frequency than 2 GHz Wifi

Or S bamd Microwave transmissions (typically 2-4 GHz) Often used for satellite communications.

Finally communications C band transmissions - (associated with TV receive only transmissions 4-8 GHz) - You may have quite simply, an accident of location that's very uncommon.

Another one: Is there a wireless transmission power setting available on your router - I use XP pro on my Dual boot Dell Vistro Win/Ubuntu and successfully reduced the transmitter power a little, ( 20 % reduction - XP ) to increase battery life

CAT III ( I'm no expert, needless to say)

I had FM radio interference from some traffic using Cambridge - You could hear the weather radar scanning patterns over the loud speakers - Older radars only I think.

[Cornish Jack]

Cat111 - thank you for the suggestion. With my experiences with wifi, almost anything is possible. My location is NE Norfolk and I don't know whether there are any possible EMI sources locally. However we are very close to the main UK gas terminal and there are more plods to the square inch here than anywhere I have previously lived. On e could assume a lot of plod radio traffic and DAB reception is crap - but then that seems to be universal!:*
As I wrote in my previous, I think I shall leave well alone for the moment but on past experience, I can foresee a return engagement in the near future:sad:

[Loose rivets]

I found inSSIDer (snazzy name) tremendously helpful. And it's free.


Looking at a very weak signal with my USB ærial pointing this way and that, got me the best signal possible through four old redbrick Essex walls. Yep, it seemed better in a straight line than pointing at the window etc.

It shows both common channel ranges.

The software tells me my channel, other local channels being used, and their relative strengths. They show WEP etc., of each local internet user, oh, and their provider.

It does not function when hard-wired however, which is a shame.

[mixture]

It does not function when hard-wired however, which is a shame.

If you're looking for programs to scan physical networks, you'll have to look beyond inssider... rest assured such programs do exist though.

[Saab Dastard]

Wireshark is an excellent, free, packet capture and protocol analyzer tool.

SD

[Loose rivets]

One would assume there is nothing that can cause the computer to look around the neighborhood without a wi-fi thingie installed in the normally hard-wired PC.

That was a kind of question.:O

[Guest 112233]

I do not want to sound over the top (Tin foil Hat firmly embedded in place) but given your reply and the fact that you have had problems with a succession of wireless routers - I had two BT Duds,

I suspect that the "strategic" facility that you mention; may be a factor in this situation. As a polite aside do you have similar problems in establishing mobile phone connectivity ?

In your case I'm thinking of the proximity of a Microwave link (I think these are used less now than in the past)

From personal experience I cite cell phone problems outside a well known building with limited occupancy issues in London. -

I know it sounds absolutely daft but it's one of those 1,000,000:1 chances that means you need wired connections in house.

If this proves to be the case, I suspect that you may be entitled to restorative modifications to enable you to "Enjoy" in the formal sense, your broadband connectivity.

Are there any PPruner's who have had recourse to this arrangement (confidentiality clauses permitting of course.)

CAT III

[Cornish Jack]

CAT 111 - All quite possible, of course, but I fancy that my 'problems' are more of my own making (read 'dim as a Toc H lamp') than external influences. :(
I have, in fact, made some progress - the Nexus now connects with no problems as does the Dell laptop. However the Advent, sitting alongside the Dell stubbornly refuses to connect, in spite of showing 'excellent' signal strength. The attempts at using the 'repair' function in the networks dialogue box consistently generates the 'unable to renew the IP address' message. Struggled miserably down that particular avenue the last time I tried to set the thing up.
The brain is now ultra weary and the eyes also, so I think I shall leave well alone and accept two out of three as a good result!!

[Ancient Observer]

Cornish,
sorry to hear of your problems. I have been fortunate that most of my stuff has worked on a PnP basis. Old netgears and current BT kit all appear to work fine on a pnp basis, and my knowledge of techie is only marginally above zero.

However, I do echo the earlier comments about local help. My local IT helper normally does what is required on a single visit, at most 2 visits, and he charges about half what the plumber does.

Don't use the helpers/experts from the big stores - they are way too expensive.

[oldbeefer]

How old are the laptops? I have found some ancient ones have wireless cards that aren't compatible with modern routers. I've overcome this by using a (very small) USB adaptor from Linksys or Edimax. Less than a tenner, so worth a try perhaps?

[Milo Minderbinder]

I've already pointed out that the spec of the Advent strongly suggests that the wireless card will be limited - I'd guess at WEP only, B only
WEP only would make it incompatible with a WPA network, while trying to use B on a G or N network in a mixed environment would cripple the other machines bandwidth

[Cornish Jack]

Thanks again to all and a final update.
Router remains on WEP; Dell continues to operate wirelessly, upstairs and downstairs; Advent resolutely refuses to make the wifi connection but has excellent signal strength; the Nexus has instant connectivity, again upstairs and downstairs; I am a contented bunny:ok:

[Milo Minderbinder]

ON WEP not WPA?

OK, in that case....the answer to the Advent may be that when attempting to set up WEP automatically it often goes wrong because the PC makes the wrong choice of open/shared WEP keys
The answer may be to manually edit the wireless connection on the advent from one to the other......I'd guess that its on "open" but needs "shared" (which reduces the security even more)

[FullOppositeRudder]

Most wireless routers should allow configuration with a simple process straight out of the box using the supplies software (usually on disk). However there are a lot of variables and unknowns which might be complicating the procedure for you, and most of these have already been mentioned.

I can only endorse the suggestion of others and get some assistance from either a professional, or from a a friend who is gifted with the ability to set up these networks.

It's no disgrace to seek on site assistance in these matters and it will save a lot of frustration and tension. You also will have peace of mind of knowing that your system is secure and operating at best efficiency.

Regards,
FOR

[cats_five]

I found inSSIDer (snazzy name) tremendously helpful. And it's free.
<snip>.

There is also an excellent Android app, Wifi Analyser which is free. I find carrying my Nexus 4 round easier than juggling with a laptop!

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.farproc.wifi.analyzer&hl=en

[Mike-Bracknell]

Thanks again to all and a final update.
Router remains on WEP; Dell continues to operate wirelessly, upstairs and downstairs; Advent resolutely refuses to make the wifi connection but has excellent signal strength; the Nexus has instant connectivity, again upstairs and downstairs; I am a contented bunny:ok:

Jack,

Just one final question - does the router's configuration actually mention WPA2 at all?

I ask because it may well be that the router is from the vintage when WPA2 didn't exist, and that same time was considerably more difficult from a wifi setup point of view as I experienced a lot more issues of the same ilk.

Can you ascertain the exact model number of the router? as it may be that a firmware update to that router would get it working with WPA2 which would then support the later devices.

Cheers,
Mike.

[Cornish Jack]

Hi Mike, thank you for that. Apologies for delay in responding.
Re. router model, I've checked on the machine itself and it appears to be a Thomson Gateway TG585 v7. I'm assuming that the v7 refers to the software update state?? I've had this router operating since changing to Plusnet in May 2010 and haven't bothered to check for s/w updates nor would feel at all happy at attempting it. As I wrote previously, 2 out of 3 will do quite nicely for me:ok:
The Advent must be close to 20 years old and way beyond its 'sell by' date! Just remembered, a propos nothing - I paid just under £1700 for it at PC World - not sure whether the price or sale venue represents the greater madness!!:E

[Mike-Bracknell]

Looks like the v7 does support WPA2, Jack. This all points to the issue being the Advent :)