Living in Hong Kong and Working for Cathay Pacific

[Jetpilot213]

Guys, I originally posted this under the Cathay Cadet Pilot Program thread, but I think it deserves a separate thread because it is key to understanding what kind of lifestyle you are considering. Originally it was mainly directed towards Westerners because it is a very different lifestyle to what they are used to in their own countries, and I can provide a current Western S/O perspective. Hong Kongers already know what life is like in Hong Kong, and it's a very different experience for them than Westerners because of things like language, cultural differences, having family here, being the only life they know, etc. What they don't know is how good it is elsewhere, such as Australia. But, in the interest in including all who are interested in the job, I added some philosophical thoughts for the local guys at the end of the post.

I don't normally spend time writing on forums, but I figure that this info might come in handy to someone out there looking for real answers. Now that I've lived in Hong Kong, and worked for Cathay for over a year, I can tell you how it really is. There's a lot of info here, so feel free to read in depth. I'm not bull****ting you, this is my experience:

I am a professional, and had a profession prior to Cathay. I have another career path to compare with. I had an office job, working 40-hour weeks in a technology related position. By taking a job with Cathay, and moving to Hong Kong my lifestyle is worse than it was in my previous career. Why did I take the job in the first place? I had set a life goal of becoming a professional pilot, and I thought that I was joining the best company out there. I based a lot of my decision on the Cathay name. I had the impression that they are the kind of company you join, and never think about getting another flying job. I had talked to other Cathay pilots, and they had generally good perspectives, but the Cadet Pilot Program was new, and they didn't know about the changes in the compensation package. They were all on expat pay packages, so their housing was a big chunk of money, and the cost of living was significantly lower. When they joined, they could afford a "decent" home by Hong Kong standards straightaway. I thought that the pay would be good, because compared to my home country it is good for a low-time pilot, but looking ahead to FO and beyond, I see that what seemed to be a gain in the short term turns out to be a very big loss in the long term.

If I had the chance to go back and join Cathay again, I would not. I would stay in my previous career, or find a different avenue for being a pilot in my home country.

Read on if you want to know why.

I'll start with the big gorilla - HOUSING. Hong Kong is literally one of the most expensive cities in the world for housing costs. Why? There's a limited supply, and the Mainland Chinese use it as an investment opportunity, driving prices sky-high. There is a lot of greed in this city. This also increases the risk of a housing bubble, which means that if you are fortunate enough to actually buy something here, you might end up losing all your money when prices go down. Ok, so what are current prices like? Let me give you Tung Chung as an example. TC is close to the Airport, very convenient for work, and is also less expensive than other parts of Hong Kong, because it's a long way from the action of places like Central, TST, Lan Kwai Fong, etc. It's also cheaper because it's a long commute to work for locals who work in Central or Kowloon.

Walk through this with me... To get a rough estimate of prices here, just go to the HSBC valuation tool website: Property Valuation Tool - HSBC in Hong Kong (http://www.hsbc.com.hk/1/2/hk/mortgages/valuation)
Let's look up a practical example for a new SO, just moving to Hong Kong and wanting to get their first place, a 575 usable sqft place in Caribbean Coast, Tung Chung:
Look up the following: Zone: New Territories/Island; District: Lantau/Outlying Islands; Estate Name: Caribbean Coast; Block/Building: Phase 3, Tower 10; Floor: 35; Flat/Unit: C
Result: 4.86 Million HKD, or about $613,000AUD or $627,000USD. These places don't even have closet spaces or wardrobes. That will be extra, thank you. Total cash on hand needed to purchase? Let’s do the math:
The Down Payment requirement is currently 10%. There are two Stamp Duties (Tax): Normal, calculated here: Stamp Duty Computation (Landed Properties) - Property Transfer (http://www.ird.gov.hk/eng/ese/sd_comp/sdpt.htm)
and an additional stamp duty of 15% for non-permanent residents like you and me. That new stamp duty came out in Oct 2012. There are also miscellaneous costs, such as solicitors fees, and agent fees. We’ll estimate those at about another $40,000HKD.

So we get: $486,000+$145,800+$729,000+$40,000=$1,400,800HKD (i.e. $181,000USD CASH)

You're out of the market, and it's going up faster than your income, so you'll never get in. As a result, you'll end up always paying rent, and end up with little in the way of assets when it comes time for retirement. I don't think you want to come to Hong Kong for that. That's where a lot of our guys are sitting right now. It takes 7 years to become a permanent resident in Hong Kong. In 7 years, the prices of flats could easily double or even triple, so by the time you can get the 15% stamp duty waived, it's too late anyway. Mind you, this is for 575 square feet of cement walls and tile floors. Nothing in the way of comfort. If you want a "livable" place of, say 1000 sqft, look up an A or H unit in Caribbean Coast, those are proper 1000 sqft places. That will cost you close to $8.5million HKD, the down payment will be more like 30%, Stamp duties will be higher, and… you get the picture. When pilots who have expat benefits joined, many were able to purchase a place to live not long after arriving because of assistance from Cathay. There were loan programs that would help them finance up to 100%, so they didn’t even need to try to save up while squandering money on rent. The situation now is a terrible, terrible mess.

Ok, so say you actually DO have the cash to buy a place in Hong Kong, let's take a look at some other aspects of life here:

POOR QUALITY GOODS Goods are expensive compared to the same product in a western country (read Australia, New Zealand, USA). You buy a mop, it breaks. You buy an air conditioning unit, it falls apart after a couple years. You buy ANYTHING, and you'll find that the quality is just not the same. And, you will pay a premium if it's not common in Hong Kong. Oh, did I mention that if you want to buy something unique, you will struggle with the local shop keeper just trying to communicate what it is that you want? I decided I want to do some remodeling--a little painting, and put up some shelves. So, let's go get a roller and paint... Paint was easy to find. But, decent painting tools? Not as easy. I ended up buying them in Oz at Bunnings, and bringing it all back in a suitcase. It's cool that I can do that, but you can't carry 2X4s in a suitcase... You just can't beat jumping in the car or truck, heading down to the local hardware store, picking up some goods, getting courteous, professional service and advice, and driving back home. You can't do that here. It's not possible.

FOOD is a real RISK here. If it's from China, the cost is maybe equivalent to a western country, maybe a little cheaper. BUT, there is a huge health risk. The Chinese do some scary things to food products in their country. You don't have the same quality control as western countries. They will dye greens so they look fresh. They will dye meat so it looks fresh. It is a risk when shopping at the store. You don't know where it comes from, and you don't know if it's safe to eat. There is also the option of buying food products from western countries, such as Australia or NZ, but it is expensive because of shipping. There is also the risk of food quality due to pollution. You just don't know what kind of field that Chinese cabbage was grown in. Was it watered from the local river that had a shoe factory upstream? If it comes from China, there is a good chance this is the case.

Speaking of POLLUTION, look up "China Pollution" on Google and take a long look at the images there. Hong Kong isn't as bad as Mainland China, but their wind blows our direction. The air quality is getting worse, because we are so close to Shenzhen and Zhuhai. They are industrial cities, and have all the ailments of Chinese industry. There are days that coworkers won't even let their kids out of the house because the pollution index to too high. On a plus note, it makes for beautiful sunsets. :\

Speaking of HEALTH, one issue with Hong Kong is that the medical facilities are not like western countries. In some ways, Hong Kong has world-class medical care. Need surgery? Fantastic. Need a specialist? No problem. Kid broke his arm and you need help fast from someone who speaks good English? Uh, not so easy. Getting to an "emergency room" is not a simple task. If one of our children was injured here, the task of getting them treated isn't quite so straightforward. If you call an ambulance, what number do you call? Easy - 999. Will they speak English on the other end of the line, and understand what you're saying? Not really. Will they know where you are located? Hope you can say your location in Cantonese. When it comes to emergency medical care, there are always things lost in translation. That brings us to the cultural differences in medical practices, such as when it comes to having a baby. If you go to a public hospital, they will not allow your spouse to join you for support the birth. The woman is on her own, in a room with 2-5 other women also giving birth, all screaming in a foreign language she doesn't understand. A friend of mine was denied access to his wife and child multiple times during the labor and birth. It was either after "visiting hours" or some other reason... Cathay's insurance doesn't pay for maternity costs at all. That'll cost you $40,000+ if you go anywhere other than a public hospital.

Let's talk about the job, and in particular the Roster. Being a pilot is no longer the wonderful career it once was. It is now a blue-collar job. It used to be the case that an SO had all the time in the world, but no money. Part of that has changed. Here’s the new reality: ALL new joiners are going to the Airbus fleet, and they're ALL starting on the A330. That has the worst roster of all possible rosters at Cathay. Most of the flying is overnight, and with 3 crew members, meaning you sleep for 3 hours and work for 8. Those two factors mean that you will experience constant fatigue, an irregular sleep schedule (for the rest of your life), and increased risk for health issues. Try going to sleep in an armchair at 11pm, and getting up at 2am and flying a plane for 8 hours. That’s what it’s like every time you fly. What about rest during layovers? The company policy is that 24-hour layovers should be avoided because they cause significant fatigue, because you can't get normal sleep during a 24 hour period - When you arrive, you are tired and may sleep 8 hours, but when you wake up, you have 16 hours, and trying to sleep another 8 hours after being awake 8 hours doesn't work well. The next sign-on time will be exactly when your body says it’s bedtime again. That means even if your return trip to Hong Kong is a day trip, you still feel like sleeping. That’s exactly what most Airbus layovers are like. In fact, it’s what most layovers are like for CX pilots are in general. For comparison, cabin crew generally get twice as many days for layovers (and of course twice the allowance as well). You will suffer health consequences as a result of these rostering practices. I have literally felt myself age more in the past 1-2 years than in the 4 years prior. I have gotten sick more often. Currently the company is trying to revise the flight time limitations (FTLs), and they won't make it easier on pilots. They don't need to revise FTLs to do that. Cathay’s rostering practices are also such that you won’t know what you’re doing next month until 15 days prior. Not so at many other airlines. Not knowing what your next month's roster is until the 15th makes planning with friends or family early in the month difficult. It keeps you from having that quality time you need to stay healthy and happy.

Let’s take a closer look at the long-term finances of the compensation package. The cost of living is increasing dramatically in Hong Kong, the pay scale does not increase much from year to year, and the "Hong Kong Pilot Allowance" does not make up the difference, or increase with inflation. So, give it another year and you'll effectively be making less than you are now. Your spouse could try to get a job in Hong Kong, but it'll be very hard to get a decent paying job without very good Mandarin and Cantonese, a good degree, and a lot of luck. With that job will come 12-hour days, 5 days a week, with half-days on Saturday. That's how Hong Kong rolls. Why come to a foreign country for this? Not worth it. People come to Hong Kong for a major financial opportunity over their home country. That incentive is no longer there. And, they usually only come to HK for a few short years, not a full career.

In Summary,
Had I the chance to do it over again, I would not join Cathay. Speaking from experience, I honestly can sit here and recommend that you avoid joining this company. It is not worth it. I would look for other opportunities, or stick with my previous career field. Make flying a hobby instead. You’ll be happier. Why don't I just leave? In the human resources business, they have a term called "iron handcuffs." That aptly describes the contract with Cathay. Once you sign it, you can't leave early without a significant cash outlay, which of course no one can afford, so the only thing you can do is ride out the term of your contract, with the hope that there will be good opportunities later on. The bottom line is in order to have a good life you need to have a good family and social life. In order to do that, you need to have plenty of time and money. This job does not meet Western standards in this respect. The future will only get worse as they continue to search for the rock-bottom price they can pay for a pilot.

Now, for those who are from Hong Kong who are considering a position with Cathay, I would like to say a few more words... They are exploiting your culture. They are taking advantage of the fact that you are willing to live at home with your mom and dad while a new hire with a major corporation. If they can, they will take advantage of the fact that some of you consider a job title more important than the money you're working for. They will pay you less than they can because of this. The company CAN affort to pay you a significant housing allowance, too. They just don't because they don't have to. They will instead pay that money to some business manager in the airline who came up with the idea of the cadet package and actually convinced people to sign up for it. When you are sitting across from your interviewer, keep in mind that they may get a bonus for convincing you to join the company on the cheap. Some of you are willing to take anything they offer, with the hope that once in the door, things might improve. Let me shed some light on this line of thinking: This is a specialist job. You can't just change companies mid-career like you can with a business management position. Even a doctor or lawyer could change practices mid-career if they so desire. Pilots cannot, at least not without significant loss of pay and benefits. So, when your performance merits a raise but your boss refuses to give you one, it doesn't matter. You are an Airbus or 777 pilot, and jobs for Airbus or 777 rated pilots can be VERY hard to come by. You can't leave without basically starting a new career. Once you join, you're locked into the contract you signed at age 21, or 22, or 25, or whatever. There are pilot unions in each company that make changing companies impossible without losing money. If you leave Cathay, you will end up at the bottom of some other company's heap of pilots. Once in the door, it's not you that has them, but they have you. Because the pay is adjusted merely at the will of management, you will find that the value of your earnings will decrease as inflation makes everything you need to buy more expensive. Maybe this doesn't matter now, but 2-3 years down the road when you want a woman in your life, it will. And 5-10 years down the road when you have kids and a wife, you'll realize that the career path you've chosen does not offer you the lifestyle you want, even for a native Hong Konger who knows how to live off the local economy. Take a long look at other career paths, and what guys are making down the road. Keep in mind that this job does not pay significant bonuses, like banking and other business jobs can. If you try to compare them, you'll see that what Cathay now offers is not what other companies would pay for someone of Cathay Pacific pilot calibre. They are getting cheap labor, and that cheap labor is you, the local Hong Konger. I don't like it, and neither should you, and they need to know it's not right. I know they are offering "free" flight training, but at the very least they should also offer the full housing allowance on becoming a First Officer who is checked to the line, even to ab initio cadets.

[Mediums]

Ok if thats how we going to go about it here I start. First off, dont get me wrong I am not a local and neither would like to because of the petty cultute they have in HK. My family owned quite a sizeable amount of land where Im from, pine trees are abundant there so dont expect me not to know the difference in the air. Any city that is developed fully will be polluted, we chose to move here for the oppurtnuties that this city provides you not saying there werent oppurtunities back there but the pay and benefits are nothing even close.

My point is you have to sacrifice something for something else. As for Corporate greed it has always been there and will be. I used to work for a company with a similar agenda as CX, ehen though I resigned and made a sizeable group take the struggle together... At the end of the day there was a queue of people outside willing to work for way less. If as you say your country is so much better off why not take a flying post there? I have wanted to be a pilot for a long time... The oppurtinities in HK are just CX or KA. Like any other big city with the convenience of 24 hours transport, shops, hospitals etc you can obviously expect to pay more for rent etc. Why would I take the job right away? Because I am humble enough and know that if it means it puts a few more extra meals on my family's table then why not? For your info Im living with my family of 6 in a 800sqft flat the rent is 7,500 hkd per month. We used to live in a double story over 5000sqft house.

If you are willing to make sacrifices and can cut costs to save up for a year or two live through hell... You can and will make it. The down payment is 10% on property and if you cant make that with CX pay then manage your money better, learn to adapt. I get maybe half of what you are getting and already have 5% of down payment saved up from struggling through a year. In the end choose what you want to do and believe. Yes being a pilot is a professional job blah blah... So are a lot of other jobs but they are also getting pay cuts year after year. Please do quit soon so someone else can take over, what one man can make with a select few raw materials may be very different from the other man.

If you are new to HK, Im happy to give advice but if you want your "expat" lifestyle I suggest moving to Hollywood which compares nth to HK and getting a reality check. Thank you!

[Jetpilot213]

To keep things tidy, here is where the conversation went from the Cadet Pilot Program Thread:


From Mediums:
Jetpilot213, From what I can tell by your post, your office job gave you a housing allowance that far outweighed the one Cathay Pacific is offering you currently. Also all the problems you mentioned about Hong Kong were not there before and somehow CX has managed to bring all those into your life as well. Learn to adapt and learn to manage your money better.

I will say that the pollution in the city areas is much worse but nothing too serious that you end up dead in 10 years. There is a magical place called Sham Shui Po to cater to all your hardware needs for super cheap.

I'll make it very simple, HK can be the most expensive city if you make it out to be that way. If you expect to eat out at fancy restaurants daily then you have noone but yourself to blame... You can learn to fly a fancy jet but can't learn to cook. If I make the cut I'd accept right away. The whole world's economy is going to **** and noone is going to pay to train you and then hire you afterwards. There are people in HK living on HKD 5000 a month or less.

Mediums,
I'm a bit surprised by your comments. It doesn't seem like you realize that I have a family to provide for, or that you may have one to provide for in the future, too. Not even cabin crew live off $5000 hkd per month, and they get a free place to stay in the Gold Coast. That is below the poverty level. The job of a Cathay pilot is not a job you trust to someone who can only sweep the street. It's a professional job. It is a job for those who are able to handle the decision making and responsibilities that come with the job. And, the pay should be commensurate with the responsibility. Also, it should be commensurate with the money you are making for the company. The company effectively cut new joiner's pay in half compared to just a few years ago, but I can guarantee that someone in the higher echelons got a fat bonus for doing so. Is that the system you are so desperate to join?

I handle my finances quite well. The only debts I have are my home, and all payments are made on time. We usually cook at home, and the last time I went to a fancy restaurant was when I took my wife out for Valentine's day. When I say the food is expensive, I'm talking about going out and buying good, clean quality produce and cooking at home. I didn't even mention eating out. I'm not an excessive spender. My take-home between Cathay and my previous job are very similar. Yet, the lifestyle in Hong Kong does not compare with the lifestyle back home.

Sure, the smog and particulate in the air and the water won't kill me in 10 years, but neither will smoking 5 packs of cigarettes per day. But, it could put me in a wheel chair sooner, with lung disease. What about the more subtle effects of those chemicals on brain function? How about the long term effects on your muscles? How about on the development of my children? And, since I like to stay fit, it's a concern because going for a run means I'm breathing in that stuff at a more rapid rate. When we descent from FL390, into Hong Kong there is a point when you can SMELL the Hong Kong air coming in the cockpit. Let me just say it is not a refreshing smell. When I get off the plane in places like Adelaide, that air smells clean and fresh. There is a very very very significant difference. But, if you've lived in Hong Kong your whole life, you don't realize this because Hong Kong is all you know.

Sham Shui Po is not equivalent to a Bunnings or Home Depot. You can waste a lot of time wandering from shop to shop, looking for goods that just don't have the same level of quality. And, the people lack expertise. Sure, you can find super cheap stuff, but if I wanted to live a "super cheap" life, why come to Hong Kong? I could get a low paying job in my own country, and live a much better life. Why would anyone leave their home country and family for a worse opportunity? Let me say, I thought this was going to be a good opportunity, but with the experience I have gained, I can say that it is not. Even I can't argue with my own experience.

Let me say this, if you're from Hong Kong, they KNOW that you'll take the job, because you're desperate for anything. They know you would live at home with mom and dad who would still pay your bills and make your dinner. They will take advantage of this as much as they can. A bit racist, don't you think?

Mediums, that post was directed at westerners not locals, westerners are accustomed to a different life growing up and the CX package no longer provides for it, it's that simple.

I thought it was an excellent post personally but doubt it'll sway the shiny jet syndrome of cadets.


From Tea-Towel:
Quote:
Let me say this, if you're from Hong Kong, they KNOW that you'll take the job, because you're desperate for anything. They will take advantage of this as much as they can. A bit racist, don't you think?

I'm quiet confused by this statement. Are you saying its racist that they pay foreigners the same as locals?

And that it wouldn't be if they paid you more based on your race?

If Hong Kongers came to wherever you're from, and received an "Ex-pat package" would you be content?

I can sympathise with the rest of your concerns however and agree with them.

Tea-Towel,
That comment was more so directed to Mediums because he eluded to the idea that he would take the job no matter what they offered him. Which, unfortunately if there are enough people like that will cause market pressure that further lowers the compensation package for new joiners. But, I think the comment I made about being racist is not quite accurate... let me try to clarify.

To be clear, I don't think it's fair that the company pays two groups of people differently when they are doing the same job. On the contrary. What I am saying is that they will take advantage of locals and pay them less than foreigners and get away with it because locals are willing to take lower pay, and I don't think that's right. Not many foreigners will come to Hong Kong for those terms, especially once they really find out how the lifestyle compares to their home countries. I don't think it's fair that locals should get paid less than foreigners.

Let's look at the state of things prior to the new iCadet scheme:
A "local" Ab-initio cadet joins without any housing allowance, and also does not receive other significant benefits, other than "training costs."
An "expat" joins and gets full housing and other benefits.
In the long term, it's not fair because the "local" will cost the company much less.

What happened next was an argument along the lines of:
Local: "Hey, this isn't fair, they're getting paid more than us!"
Company Management: "Ok, we'll fix that..."
In comes the iCadet Scheme...
Company Management to Finance Department: "Lower the expat pay and benefits until it matches the locally employed package."
Company Management: "Are you happy now?"
Local: "Yeah, much better." (Ok, I'm using some satire here.)

Is that really what the local HK people had in mind??? Who would agree to that? Wouldn't it be better if the pay was increased to match the pay of the expat pilots?
The issue is there are market drivers that cause Hong Kong people to accept lower pay across the board - in the Banking industry, the Real Estate industry, and the Aviation industry. So, even if the company can afford to pay higher wages, why would they if they have people begging to work for them on the cheap? Maybe racist is not quite the right term for what I'm talking about... What I'm trying to describe is how employers exploit employees on a cultural and socioeconomic basis. In Hong Kong they have a "captive audience" begging for jobs. But, they can't find enough locals who have the right stuff, so they need to recruit elsewhere, too. But, those who come from elsewhere have the kind of experience I've had once landing in Hong Kong - it's NOT an easy place to live. And a good standard of living is expensive here. What the locals should be saying is "DAMN RIGHT, and WE want better compensation TOO!" I think that many locals may be scared to lose what little they have instead of realizing they have only to gain by pushing back against unacceptable terms. The company likes a divided pilot cadre because special interest groups will just feud against each other and never make any real headway, all the while the company is reaping the profits of cheap labour. If everyone is singing the same tune, and actually ACTS on it, real change will happen. My suggestion? ALL who have been given an offer to join Cathay should contact the HKAOA to negotiate their Conditions of Service and compensation, BEFORE they sign any contract with the company. There would be a significant change in how things are done if that happened. And, Mediums, as long as you survive the gauntlet of interviews, tests, and flight grading that make up the selection process, I would fully welcome you to the big leagues, where you get big league pay, not $5000hkd per month.

[Jetpilot213]

Any city that is developed fully will be polluted,

Mediums,
As far as pollution is concerned, I have been to a lot of "Fully Developed" cities in this world. Outside of cities in Mainland China, Hong Kong is one of the most polluted I've been to as far as air quality is concerned. Sydney - beautiful fresh air. Rome - Fantastic. Moscow - COLD, but still much cleaner than Hong Kong. Seoul - Better. Taipei, mmm now you're getting close. Again, as was pointed out before, this post was mainly directed to westerners because they come from much cleaner, organized and efficient places.

we chose to move here for the oppurtnuties that this city provides you not saying there werent oppurtunities back there but the pay and benefits are nothing even close.

As far as opportunity is concerned, how do you define opportunity? If an increase in pay and benefits put you in a smaller house, with greater pollution, how is that an opportunity? Also, if you came for opportunity, why would you be so willing to take low pay? I don't fully understand your logic.

Because I am humble enough and know that if it means it puts a few more extra meals on my family's table then why not?
Because that isn't enough to also pay for your kids education, or the occasional trip to Disney, and keeps you from building the wealth necessary to handle life after retirement. That's why not. I'd really like to see your budget.

If you are willing to make sacrifices and can cut costs to save up for a year or two live through hell... You can and will make it. The down payment is 10% on property and if you cant make that with CX pay then manage your money better, learn to adapt.

I did make plenty of sacrifices. I shared a flat for the first year. my wife lived out of the country so we could save money. I missed a large part of the first year of my child's life because we were apart. I have sacrificed plenty. Again, my finances ARE in order. We were able to purchase a place before the new 15% stamp duty law came out. We count ourselves lucky in this respect, but most of our friends and course mates were not so lucky. They are finding themselves in a real bind where they cannot afford to purchase anything for at least 7 years. Prices may very well double by then. Anyone joining now will be completely out of luck as far as buying a *decent* place to live is concerned.

[joe56]

Jetpilot213 thanks for the insight. I was wondering if you can provide more information?

What is the current payscale like is it anything like the document CX sends you before the interview? What do you actually take home? Do you have a breakdown of your budget? Would it make a difference if you had joined the AE or TT program with the extra money you can claim?

I tried the online tax calculator figured I would take home HKD36 000 a month in the first year. That's for a married couple without children, providing for the next years provisional payment and not taking the flight pay into account. I calculated that once I get upgraded to JFO I should get HKD58 000. Is that anywhere near accurate?

[SMOC]

I am not a local and neither would like to because of the petty cultute they have in HK.

For your info Im living with my family of 6 in a 800sqft flat the rent is 7,500 hkd per month.

I hate to burst your bubble Mediums but you're a local, no westerner would move to HK and live in 800sf with a family of 6!

[Jetpilot213]

Hi Joe,
Hopefully I can answer your questions.

As far as the payscale is concerned, Cathay is not going to lie about how much they will pay you. I will agree that it can be a little confusing with the different pay levels based upon hours worked.

I joined under an AE course, so I received the forgivable loan of $550,000HKD.
It took all of that and more to buy a place by the skin of our teeth. Could we have purchased something a little cheaper and had a little cash left over? Yes, but in Hong Kong your property is your nest egg in many ways. If you get something cheaper, you end up not getting as much money in return when you sell in the future. At the same time, it's a big gamble to purchase a place here because the market is historically volatile. There have been large "adjustments" in the past where prices have dropped as much as 50%. Over the past 3-5 years prices have doubled. So, in the next 3 years it could go either way. The catch for us is that we can't sell the place and buy a bigger one until we obtain HK permanent residence, after being residents for 7 years.

We were fortunate enough to buy before the new 15% stamp duty. But now the game has changed, and any new joiner would have to come up with substantially more to get into a home. You don't get the stamp duty money back when you sell, so you can see how that will basically lock you out of buying a flat here because the cost to purchase is just too high. So, you'll end up paying rent forever as housing prices continue to climb, even if you join as a TT cadet.

To make things worse, the regular stamp duty has just doubled as well - H.K. Doubles Stamp Duty on All Properties on Bubble Risks - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-22/hong-kong-doubles-stamp-duty-on-all-properties-on-bubble-concern.html)

Monthly budget:

Paycheck averages about $48,000hkd-$52,000hkd per month. Taxes are not taken out by the company. You need to set aside taxes on your own. Like you point out, taxes will take a chunk of cash to pay.
Here are the big ticket items for us:
$20,000 - Mortgage, Electricity, Water, Homeowners Fees
$5,000 - Food (60% grocery, 40% restaurants)

To rent a place like ours will cost about $12,500 or $13,000 at the current market rates, but you can expect those rental rates to increase with these new stamp duty measures. But, our salary and HKPA will not increase with these increased costs. You can do the math, and will realize that even someone who comes through the TT course will find themselves struggling to save the money necessary to purchase a place. Keep in mind, we're talking about 575 sqft, bare bones, white walls and white tile floors. Only the kitchen and bathroom were finished.

[joe56]

Thanks for the information, much appreciated.

[Mediums]

SMOC, we moved here when I was 11 years old so again no I am not a local but you may say that we have had to adapt n sacrifice a lot. For what its worth I dont plan to retire here... Yeah flats are small here but what you gonna do? Not everyone can afford to rent a bigger flat and thats why Im looking always for ways to increase my pay. You will all eventually be broken in or broken completely. Take it as you may.... If the west is so good why not get a job as a pilot there...oh right cause the pay is worse than what CX pays.

[Jetpilot213]

If the west is so good why not get a job as a pilot there...oh right cause the pay is worse than what CX pays.

Pay is only a number. The real measurement is whether a career move gives you a better lifestyle or not. That is the bottom line.

What lifestyle has living in Hong Kong given you compared to where you came from? Are you happier here than in your native country? Does your family believe they are better off now that they live in Hong Kong? Do they enjoy life more than they did before coming to Hong Kong? Why did they leave? And, just to give everyone a reference, what country or region did you come from? You don't have to answer that last question if you are concerned about anonymity.

I pose the lifestyle questions to you because those are the questions that anyone considering a move to Hong Kong should be asking. And, they need to understand the factors, such as inflation and other market pressures in Hong Kong that will affect their answers. That's what this thread is about.

[SMOC]

If the west is so good why not get a job as a pilot there...oh right cause the pay is worse than what CX pays.

That's because of two things.

1. My bedroom is 600sf let alone the rest of the house.
2. Seniority, my home doesn't pay less, but the pay cut associated with the demotion to the bottom of the seniority list is too great. When I can afford the pay cut I'm gone.

[NowThatsFunny]

Mediums,
If your family moved there when you were 11, assuming you're older than 22 now then you've spent more than half your life in HK so you haven't really spent much time outside of the HK lifestyle and culture. Have you had a job/career outside of HK? If so, why did you leave it to go back to the HK lifestyle?

You're used to small housing and everything else that comes along with living in HK on probably relatively low wages.
"the pay is worse than what CX pays"....not in my country, and not in my flying job.

I get the impression that you may not be the best to comment on experiences of people from outside of HK going to work for CX.

And looking at your comments about having to sacrifice so much (pay, housing, lifestyle) for the "opportunity", it seems pretty clear that you're in the "live to work", not "work to live" category.

I give you credit for your "glass is half full" attitude to your own situation, but as I said above, it's not accurate to apply your experiences to people coming from overseas to work for CX.

[Jetpilot213]

New Stamp Duty Measures:
H.K. Doubles Stamp Duty on All Properties on Bubble Risks - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-22/hong-kong-doubles-stamp-duty-on-all-properties-on-bubble-concern.html)

This is in addition the 15% special stamp duty, meaning a new place will cost over 20% in taxes at the time of purchase.

[TeaTowel]

Even though rising property prices are causing massive problems for many, at least they are trying to combat a risk of a property market bubble burst.
Living in a country where ours burst 5 years ago has been hell. I don't own property but you cant escape it.

I think the main concern for people considering moving to Hong Kong should be this. A property market crash could lead to a banking industry bailout:eek:

It doesn't matter if houses are cheap to buy then, you still wont have the money! The economy will shrink, working hours will reduce and your taxes will go up!

[tu144]

Ok if thats how we going to go about it here I start. First off, dont get me wrong I am not a local and neither would like to because of the petty cultute they have in HK. My family owned quite a sizeable amount of land where Im from, pine trees are abundant there so dont expect me not to know the difference in the air. Any city that is developed fully will be polluted, we chose to move here for the oppurtnuties that this city provides you not saying there werent oppurtunities back there but the pay and benefits are nothing even close.

My point is you have to sacrifice something for something else. As for Corporate greed it has always been there and will be. I used to work for a company with a similar agenda as CX, ehen though I resigned and made a sizeable group take the struggle together... At the end of the day there was a queue of people outside willing to work for way less. If as you say your country is so much better off why not take a flying post there? I have wanted to be a pilot for a long time... The oppurtinities in HK are just CX or KA. Like any other big city with the convenience of 24 hours transport, shops, hospitals etc you can obviously expect to pay more for rent etc. Why would I take the job right away? Because I am humble enough and know that if it means it puts a few more extra meals on my family's table then why not? For your info Im living with my family of 6 in a 800sqft flat the rent is 7,500 hkd per month. We used to live in a double story over 5000sqft house.

If you are willing to make sacrifices and can cut costs to save up for a year or two live through hell... You can and will make it. The down payment is 10% on property and if you cant make that with CX pay then manage your money better, learn to adapt. I get maybe half of what you are getting and already have 5% of down payment saved up from struggling through a year. In the end choose what you want to do and believe. Yes being a pilot is a professional job blah blah... So are a lot of other jobs but they are also getting pay cuts year after year. Please do quit soon so someone else can take over, what one man can make with a select few raw materials may be very different from the other man.

If you are new to HK, Im happy to give advice but if you want your "expat" lifestyle I suggest moving to Hollywood which compares nth to HK and getting a reality check. Thank you!
This is the reason why this profession keeps going down the tubes further and further



Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[OneBarWonder]

Thank you for writing an excellent, well rounded post. As a Westerner living in Hong Kong I agree 100% with what you have written. I don't know a single new joiner who is planning to stay past their six year bond period. It's a very grim, sad state of affairs..

[v1r8]

Would it not almost be easier to live somewhere close (2/3 hours flying) and commute the day prior and get a hotel room? For the single S/O's that is of course...

People out there doing that? I would consider that vs paying rent/mortgage in HK...

V1

[OneBarWonder]

Commuting isn't sustainable long term at CX. You may be able to do it as a single SO on a compact roster for a while, but as soon as you upgrade or get a spouse it won't work. Believe me. What about if/when you have kids?
Living in a nearby Asian country can be tricky unless you marry one of the locals. I have friends who commute and the wheels are falling off their carts very quickly. Fatigue and relationship breakdowns are rife. You probably don't want to hear this but you are really trying to cram a round peg in a square hole. No offence.

[711]

Jetpilot123 is spot on. Nothing but the truth. Great post.

[Mogas]

"Thank you for writing an excellent, well rounded post. As a Westerner living in Hong Kong I agree 100% with what you have written. I don't know a single new joiner who is planning to stay past their six year bond period. It's a very grim, sad state of affairs.."



Out of curiosity, where could someone go with 6 years of S/O time?

[Jetpilot213]

Would it not almost be easier to live somewhere close (2/3 hours flying) and commute the day prior and get a hotel room? For the single S/O's that is of course...

People out there doing that? I would consider that vs paying rent/mortgage in HK...

V1

V1,
It's simply not realistic with what has happened to the SO roster. ALL of the new SOs are going on the Airbus Fleet, straight to the A330. That means they'll have a busy schedule, and commuting is not very realistic - flight costs will add up, you still need to have a "crash pad" in HK (expect to pay $6000-8000hkd at least to share a place close to HKIA), and you legally have no right of abode in the other locale. Hotel rooms at the Headland are about $650hkd per night, and you'll be here at least 5-10 nights per month. I know of several who have made a go of it, but now they're having to find a place in Hong Kong and struggling to make it. Sure, someone could argue that people in this city are making less than half of what an SO makes, but they have the advantage of speaking the local language, of knowing where the bargains are, and if the don't, they have family to help out as well.

When you join Cathay, Hong Kong becomes your home. Hoping for a basing? That ship has sailed. The company has been burned by complicated taxation and long service leave issues. It's "on hold" at the moment, and the music keeps playing and playing...

I recently heard of someone who spent 6-12 months here, but when their well-educated significant other couldn't find a decent job here, they moved back home and the guy plans to commute... That'll get real expensive when it comes time to pay the tax man. And, those long 9-hour commutes are going to take a toll. We'll see how long that relationship lasts. :ouch:

For those with wife or kids, it's not a good situation. If you're single, it's easier, but you still won't save any money, regardless of what some may think. Not being able to live close to work just doesn't make sense.

[Jetpilot213]

I should mention what's within 2-3 hours:
Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, China, Laos, Cambodia... take your pick. There are guys who live in Phuket, but it is a vacation spot, so from what I hear, after a while that gets old, too. Then, you still need to figure out where your kid is going to school.

[main_dog]

Out of curiosity, where could someone go with 6 years of S/O time?

Bingo, that's part of the "beauty" of this scheme. By the time you have been in the company six years you will barely have more than two years as an F/O behind you (assuming four years to upgrade), and thus probably no more than 1,500 hours of actual flying time... and you're not going to go very far with that amount of experience.

For those thinking "I'll just go to Emirates", they want quite a bit more experience than that, and in all likelihood in six years they will have reached their definitive size as an airline and will no longer be hiring as much anyway.

Realistically you will have to have maybe ten years of time in CX before reaching the 4,000 or more hours of experience that will make you interesting to a recruiter in a decent company, and by then you will have seniority working against you: your ten years of accumulated seniority will make it hard to start again somewhere else at the absolute bottom of the heap (read time for command, read starting again at meagre first-year pay).

Even IF pilot hiring is crazy ten years from now and CX start bleeding pilots left and right, they will simply throw money at the problem -just the minimum amount of money needed- to staunch the flow, by upping the measly housing allowance (it will still be far less than proper indexed housing allowance).

In essence, this new scheme allows them to invest now to get cheap labour later. Within less than four or five years, the cost of your training has been offset by not paying for your housing, and from then on you are a great cost savings to them.

These managers are far cleverer than we give them credit for... while we are far less clever than we like to think. :ouch:

[Jetpilot213]

In essence, this new scheme allows them to invest now to get cheap labour later. Within less than four or five years, the cost of your training has been offset by not paying for your housing, and from then on you are a great cost savings to them.

Yup. They started with offering cadetships to the local HK guys, and realized it worked out pretty well, so now they've figured out how to do it with guys from the West as well.

These managers are far cleverer than we give them credit for... while we are far less clever than we like to think.

Sadly, you're right. They're damn smart. We're all "bound" with a bond that is far higher than we can afford to pay off. There have been a few that decided they were not happy with life in Hong Kong and have left already, taking a severe financial hit to pay back the $1.1million hkd hanging over their heads. "Forgivable Loan" is such a misnomer.

Double Bind: A situation in which a person must choose between equally unsatisfactory alternatives; a punishing and inescapable dilemma.

double bind - definition of double bind by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/double+bind)
(Funny thing is when I looked this up, the ad underneath said "Become a Pilot."):ugh:

[AndontcallmeShirley]

If you are one of the few guys both capable of actually doing this job and genuinely considering doing so then please read this post carefully. I have no agenda to push other than expressing my own thoughts and feelings having been here just about long enough to see how it really is.

Near enough all of what is said on this thread is true. Working for CX, as a westerner, and especially on the Airbus (from what friends tell me), is absolutely crap.

Once the novelty wears off, which won't take long, you will utterly resent it. I promise you. You will resent the fact colleagues outright own (multiple) apartments that are 3 times the size of what you pay half of your salary to rent. You will resent the complete lack of responsibility or respect for your abilities you get from your colleagues. You will resent how your sh1t CoS affects your sense of self worth every day. And you will resent HK; The noise, pollution, food, culture etc etc. How do I know this? Because 95% of the westerners I know feel exactly like this. If you like cramped living, spending everything and having nothing to show for it at the end of the month and endless sh1t night flights to Riyadh and various other dumps through the Middle East then by all means apply.

The only thing that I would disagree with is that after 6 years you will have c.3000hrs and probably 1500 relevant, useable hours on a heavy jet. It might not get you into Emirates but it probably will get you into some place you may actually want to work.

However, whatever your goal, chances are you will reach them a lot quicker if you go somewhere else and you will become a hell of a lot better as a pilot and a happier person than doing it via CX.

I came here because I had zero options and mouths that needed feeding. I would have loved to have told them where to go but unfortunately morals don't pay the bills (and CX barely pays those). If you do have options then please tell them where to go. And if you want to come here because its "your dream" and you will "do it for free" and "happily live in a shoebox", then please f_ck off because it's hard enough getting by as it is and we don't want you giving them even more ideas (que pot/kettle/black etc etc..)

[ChinaBeached]

They're smart, but not so smart. The tiniest and slightly committed research would've exposed all these pitfalls. And whilst I have always advocated to never use a rumour network to seek factual answers, opinions based on first hand CX experience and international widebody airline operations have been on this web site for a very long time since C-Scles inception.

They knew all along that they had you guys over a barrel well after the 6 year term was up, due to the ICAO unrecognisable hours as SO, competitiveness of other applicants to leave CX and join a new airline (such as EK which seems to be the theme here), let alone seniority system starting at the bottom of a new airline. If those agreeing to and signing C-Scale weren't aware of this, let alone the housing scene in HK then all the more fool you've been.

The "free" training" What a joke. How many times over have they made that back on the pitiful remuneration savings they pay you? A quick calculation (correct me if I'm wrong): B-Scale = $36 k housing after 3 years. C-Scale = still $10 k housing. So, after 3 C-Scale still stuck on $10 k and B-Scale up to $36 k. 36 - 10 = 26....Now, 26 x 12 months x 3 years = $936 k HKD they've saved!! And what's your "forgivable loan" worth?? Coincidence?? Now, keep going with those comparisons over 30 years.

What an "opportunity", eh! But for who?

If they were so smart they wouldn't keep getting caught for price fixing, let alone screwing up the fuel hedging calculations. Then again, they still awarded themselves bonuses for doing so. Smart or morally corrupt? CX's iJourney system? Yep: they awarded themselves a gold star for that one as well. Sign or be fired tactics, CoS98, CoS08, 49ers....there seems to be a theme here? So to say that new joiners weren't aware of CX's style just doesn't wash. Most could regurgitate the questions and answers from the recommended reading list, but how many read Warhams "The 49ers: The True Story"? Next to Handling The Big Jets it should be regarded as compulsory reading.

NotCallingYouShirley: You're spot on with your comment that going somewhere else other than CX will progress a pilot's career far better. Without ICAO recognisable hours, what have the iCadets got to offer anyone? OK, so let's agree to perhaps 1500 hrs of usable experience after 6 years. Do you think that is competitive enough to take on others with 3-5 times that amount going for the same job? (CX's min hours used to be 1000 but applicants really needed 3-4000 hrs, multi engine command time, turbine time, even jet time, etc to be "competitive"). Widebody employers know what an SO does and don't count it. So, after 6 years at CX and 1500 hrs usable hours you'll still need perhaps another 2 years to keep going to be competitive against a guy 5 years younger but who has real hours logged from day 1 of his professional career. Now let's consider seniority to start at a new airline at the age of 28-30 at the bottom of the pile "if" you joined CX at age 20...!!!

So a year in GA to build 500 hrs TT and then straight to the RHS of an A320, Embraer, 737 or even ATR is FAR better than the "iron handcuffs" of CX that as you can see can and will hold you back for longer than 6 years. Many other situations will plant you into the RHS of a narrow body jet fresh from flying school: no time in GA required. But you had to back yourself financially for the training. No, not easy but many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of pilots have been doing it for decades before. And if you can't get those resources together then signing up for this CX "opportunity" has proven to be the devious snake in the grass you were all warned about.

You guys have zero rhyme or reason to "resent" anyone at CX on a better remuneration package than yourselves. You asked for it and all the while justified the decision to take it. Back as early as late 2009 when the aviation scene was beginning to recover jobs were there for anyone who wanted to look - but maybe not the exact shiny jet with a CX swoosh on the tail.

[Rowdy99]

Ok, ChinaBeached. I have to step in here before you hijack another thread. I'm interested in the whole situation at CX with the crappy deal they're paying now but, every time a thread gets somewhat interesting, you hijack it with ranting about Cathay and everyone who works there. Enough. From your previous posts, we all know your story. You interviewed in '08, got accepted, got offered the crappy deal 3 years later and didn't take it. Congratulations, well done. You're so wise.

My story is the exact same as yours, but I don't feel the need to rant and rave online at Cathay and everyone who decided to take a job there. This thread is interesting and informative to people considering joining, and you're just ruining it by using it as another opportunity to remind everyone in cyberspace that you didn't take the job at CX and they should all be punished because they did. We get it. Nobody cares. P**s off.

I agree that what CX is doing is wrong, and I don't think it's a wise move for most people. But everyone's situation is different, so stop being so judgemental. You have some other job now don't you? Why are you still here? It's been 4 years. Get over it.

If you feel like defending yourself, which (based on previous threads where people told you where to go) you most likely will, do it by PM. That way this thread doesn't become the ChinaBeached show and it can go back to being informative.

Thank you, rant over

PS Jetpilot 213. Thanks for starting this thread and warning people about the downfalls of CX. I think it's very important information and you're doing a lot of people a huge favour by telling them how it is.

[ChinaBeached]

Immensely hyprocytical wouldn't you say Rowdy? You choose to publicly have a dig at me and then say to get back to you via a PM. Too bad you weren't able to practice what you preach.

This is an open forum. Like the others who have commented FAR more than me on this thread, if you don't like it then leave. You haven't attacked them.

So you were in my shoes you say. I spoke up about it, you sit/sat on the sidelines. After 4 years you raise a peep against those who do speak up about it. If there's a moral high ground you're trying to climb, you're starting in a pit.

Ranting and raving online? Is that not precisely what you've done? You could've PM'd me. You didn't.

If you don't like my opinion then that's fine. Practice what you preach, comment on others' repetitive posts as well & what's more defend your dislike for my opinions with facts to back then up. Not some wet tea towel attempt at piety.

(Those with the balls for a frank, open & honest conversation where we can agree to disagree do PM me. Try sipping your own medicine.)

[j3pipercub]

Rowdy,

Would much rather listen to CB than you. P**s off.

j3

[Mediums]

Yes, please follow CB's advice and dont accept the offer even if you have old parents, a wife and a kid to feed or look after. Choose the moral high ground and stay jobless.

[OneBarWonder]

Jetpilot213, Rowdy, AndontcallmeShirley, please keep the good posts coming. Whilst I agree with some of what CB says, his manner detracts from what would otherwise be a worthwhile post.
j3pipercub, you are a troll. Go play with yourself..
Regards,
OBW

[cefey]

pprune get funnier and funnier to read for each year.

p2f - scam.
Pay for type - scam.
CX - scam.

While at same time, people keep telling all wannabees how there is "no jobs", "impossible to find anything" etc etc.

Low-hourd pilots got to start somewhere, right? How many companies do accept pilot with 200hrs TT? Ryanair, where you have to pay for your time (and have about 4000k applications from cadets and about to close recrute?).
Cathay?
GA? Well, that works for US. But not for Europe. There is no GA in Europe. And definitely not enough for "everyone".
Instructing? Very few jobs in Europe. And one must spend close to 10k-15k euro first, to get CFI/CFII/MEI-ratings.
How big flat, can you afford, while instructing? Enough to feed your family? Doubt it.

Avg. pay in US - 20$/flying-hour. 4hrs a day, 5 days a week - 400$. Roughly 1500$ a month (if you are lucky).
Rent - 800$ (for something small), internet, cell, utilities, car, insurance...

Compare this to CX - CX is not such a bad deal after all!


CX have this programs, because pilots are willing to accept it.
Pilots are willing to accept it, because its harder to find anything better.


Jetpilot, very good and informative post, thank you.
But imo, you must blame your self, not CX. Could you have done research, how much you get paid, how much it cost for flat etc? Yes. You would know EXACTLY how much money you would have "left" after all expenses.
You would know exactly how big (or small?) your flat would be.

And yes, Im sure its hard in HK without knowing language. But im sure you could think about it, before you moved there? When you are moving to a different country, with totally different culture - it WILL be different. Some things will be better, some things will be worse. You must adapt.

[j3pipercub]

Thanks onebar, I do, on an almost hourly basis. But even with all that I still wouldn't be so stupid as to accept a C Scale.

j3

[Jetpilot213]

The tiniest and slightly committed research would've exposed all these pitfalls.

Bull$#!t. Tell me where you do your research. Post your sources. Real, factual sources. Sources that someone with little to no experience in the airline industry will be able to find and trust, someone who is off in some corner of the world, looking at all options that are available to them based upon work permits, experience, pay, etc. You don't know how committed someone else's research is. Your comment comes off in a very condescending tone, and it's not necessary. Personally, I spent a lot of time discussing my career options with Cathay pilots when I was going through the application process. I spent time learning about the company, it's history, it's current standings, etc. I learned that it's a stable company. They're not going under anytime soon, so, the odds of having a retirement are good. I did research on what they pay compared to my home market. I also looked at the cost of living in Hong Kong at the time I was planning to join. There are other personal factors for taking the job outside of those. The thing is, experience speaks louder than research. Am I glad I took the job? Actually, yes. I've learned a lot since joining Cathay. Not just about flying, but about the world. I've been to every continent with the exception of South America, and Antarctica. I've learned about the macroeconomics of nations firsthand and I've observed first hand how people live in different parts of the world. Do I want to stay with CX long term? Not really. Would I do it again now? HELL NO. Confused? Let me explain: Things have changed. They have changed a lot since I signed on the dotted line and took the journey to Adelaide. The cost of living has increased dramatically in Hong Kong, and it's on the rise. If I joined NOW, I would never be able to purchase a property and start building wealth. I was fortunate enough to join just in time to buy a place just in time to avoid the new stamp duty, and just before prices went up further. A lot of luck was involved. The recent changes in real estate laws in Hong Kong put it far, far out of reach for new joiners. in essence, the cost to purchase a place in Hong Kong just doubled over the last 5 months. If I joined NOW, I would not see the interesting destinations I saw in my first year. That's because the new guys are going straight to the A330. The layovers are only 24hrs, and the destinations are mainly the Middle East, and Australia.

Could you predict that with all of your dedicated, committed, in-depth research? Could you predict that long service leave, and taxation issues would effectively close the basing options? Can you or I predict exactly what will happen in the next 4 years at Cathay? I think not.

In my original post, I said I would not go back and do it again. Of course if I didn't I wouldn't have the knowledge and experience I've gained. I am grateful for the knowledge I've gained. Who knows where the other path would have taken me. Now that I'm on this path, though, I can see that the future looks pretty rocky.

Mediums might argue that a flat in Hong Kong is within reach, but I'd like to see him post pictures of what he's got in mind. Mediums, show us what a "normal" Hong Kong home looks like inside and what the price tag would be for such a flat.

And whilst I have always advocated to never use a rumour network to seek factual answers, opinions based on first hand CX experience and international widebody airline operations have been on this web site for a very long time since C-Scles inception.

That's a bit of a contradictory statement, don't you think? You're not advocating something, but then encouraging it. Come on CB, you're a professional, right? Demonstrate the logic of a professional. This line of thinking is completely contradictory.

Nothing compares to speaking with actual people who are employed by the company. That's what I did before joining. I spoke with both cadet and non-cadet. Now, I am one of those pilots, and can give advice to others based upon my experience, and what has changed over the past 2-3 years.

I have a suggestion for those considering joining Cathay. It involves working with the HKAOA - the pilot union at Cathay. Look them up at www.HKAOA.org (http://www.hkaoa.org/) Send them an e-mail. Let the know you're interested in flying for Cathay, and would like to work with them in case you are given a job offer. They are the official representation body for CX aircrew. All new joiners should work through the AOA to negotiate the Terms and Conditions of their contract with the company. If you do receive ar offer letter from the company, contact the AOA straightaway, and work with their legal staff to ensure that you are getting the best deal possible. They have experience with a lot of pilots at different points in their career. Think of it as an investment strategy that will pay off immensely down the road.

From cefey:Jetpilot, very good and informative post, thank you.

Glad I could help. I hope that others continue to contribute, too.

But imo, you must blame your self, not CX. Could you have done research, how much you get paid, how much it cost for flat etc? Yes. You would know EXACTLY how much money you would have "left" after all expenses.
You would know exactly how big (or small?) your flat would be.

More Bull$#!t. I don't recall blaming CX. I don't recall blaming anyone. I'm just making a statement. Telling a story -- the story of my experience. I'm sharing the knowledge I have gained. I'm standing on the hill, looking down the other side and relaying back what I'm seeing from my vantage point.

When I went down to Adeliade, I would have been able to purchase at least a 3-bedroom flat with about 750sqft (actual living area) By the time I got to Hong Kong and had the money in hand to purchase, we could only afford a 2brm place with 575 sqft. That is a MASSIVE difference in buying power. If we had waited until now, we would be out of the market. Period. We would have to wait at least seven years. Spending about 13,000hkd per month in rent, this equates to $1.1 million HKD spent on rent instead of putting it into a property that is going up in value. When you factor in the increases in property values, this could easily equate to more like $2 million HKD in money lost. That's savings for retirement. That's not luxury money, that is long-term survival money. While you can forecast what the market conditions will look like in a few years, it's very difficult to be more accurate than a very rough estimate. It is not possible to get down to exact amounts. You can try, but you're trying to pin down a moving target. The further to the future you try to forecast, the greater the uncertainty factor.

While at same time, people keep telling all wannabees how there is "no jobs", "impossible to find anything" etc etc.

Good flying jobs are not easy to find. And it's getting harder. I suspect you're from Hong Kong, so we'll discuss Hong Kong because it'll be very difficult for you to get a work visa for somewhere else. In Hong Kong, I would estimate that there are about 5000 pilots. In a city of 7 million people, that equates to roughly 0.07% of the jobs out there. Now, if we look at pilot jobs for newbies in Hong Kong, there are maybe 75 this year, maybe 150 at the most. Cathay gets way more applications than that, every year. So, yes, there are virtually no flying jobs out there. Not only that, the days of making good money as a pilot are gone. The pay will continue to be whittled away through a combination of inflation, and company "streamlining" efforts.

If you want to fly because you think it's fun, get a degree in business. Develop a product and market it. You'll be rich, and you'll have all the money you need to fly for fun, and it WILL be fun. The kind of flying you do for a major airline is not "fun" flying. It's monitoring systems it's watching the autopilot in case it has a hiccup. And, the AP practically never has hiccups. Now, if you want to be a pilot because you want to see the world, well, join as cabin crew. You'll see more destinations, and you'll spend twice as much time there as the pilots. Do that for 2-3 years, and when the newness of the job wears off, start that business and make some real money so you can take care of your family. If you want to be a pilot because you can't seem to find other job prospects, you're not cut out for the job. It requires a level of professionalism and knowledge that is above and beyond a regular job. First and foremost, get the most, highest quality education you can, and always always have backup plans in case one career prospect doesn't work out.

And, if you still want to join CX as a pilot, make it through the interviews, exams, assessments, and training, don't stop there. Get more education, get an MBA, get a Masters in Engineering, get a degree in something that pays more, or start a side business. Look for better money making opportunities, and move on when they present themselves. It's the only way to find upward mobility to escape low-income living.

[ChinaBeached]

First of all, if I hear of a job, an offer, or anything that may interest me in bar I do not take it as gospel. That alone sparks interest to investigate the issue in detail. If it's for the cost of a movie ticket then a little bit of research. If it's for a career that will determine the next decade at least of my life then I leave no stone left unturned.

A rumour network like this offers ideas, concepts and experiences. Any fool taking these as law deserves to be treated as such. Some appreciate my ideas and experience, others hate them; the same with the delivery. Somewhere someone wrote that's called a good thing to spark exchanges and debates.....? But so odd the amount of times me and others like me are told to shut up for no other reason that our opinion isn't wanted or refuted without one ounce of factual backbone. So no, I don't think my reasoning about rumour networks is flawed at all.

Personally, I flew to HK for a holiday to see the place. I met with CX HR at CX City. In between beers with mates and Wan Chai inspired hangovers I went out and checked out many real estate agency windows, brochures and web sites. As for predicting the future of the HK market and where I may stand with respect to the package I was expecting to receive, I met with a few agents at the time whom my mates at CX referred me to, ie whom they had used and were well versed about the CX housing allowance. A few hours of time was the cost.

There are factual web sites publishing detailed histories and predictions of the market in the future: (10 seconds of google research with some filtering away from non factual sources or authors, as per the type I used and filled one section of my internet bookmarks with)
HK Housing Prices | | MacroBusiness (http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2011/04/is-hong-kongs-housing-market-headed-for-a-crash/hk-housing-prices/)
What is the property market outlook in Hong Kong? - Part I (http://www.ppsfs.com/en/what-is-the-property-market-outlook-in-hong-kong-part-i)
Amazing History of Hong Kong Property Market in one chart (http://www.alsosprachanalyst.com/real-estate/real-estate-30-year-history-of-hong-kong-property-market-in-one-chart.html)

That's where I got all my "BULL$HIT" from: visiting HK and studying the property market from first hand (expert/reliable) sources. (And I bet I've just provided in 30 seconds more "research" than most hopefuls have ever considered needed doing).

Living in HK was but one section of my study and prep. I went to HK specifically with CX as a priority and used the time to also take a holiday and see some mates. Like the applicants of old the same level of study was done for the company & airline, aerodynamics, met, personal HR questions, 747 Classic sim profile practice, and so on, and so on. This shocks the wannabes of today begging to be spoon fed what to wrote learn as a minimum to get through.

Stories, rumours and opinions create a spark only. In all due respect Jet, you seem to have spent a disproportionate amount of your preparation getting the job but not the same on what it may mean once there. All these web sites and expert analysis are based in educated and well qualified "best guesses", as are the TAFs, etc we use to fly with. My 5 days in HK were by far the best research. The cost of the airfare was the best value education about HK that no book, web site or well intentioned opinion could offer. A small to price to pay to discover where i intended to give the rest of professional life to.

The new stamp duty payment was perhaps somewhat of a curve ball, but not entirely out of the box considering the immense volatility of the HK market, the mainland influence and world economic trends. Like budgeting on minimal interest rates: if you can't afford a potential increase now and then when regarding a long term repayment picture then it's a more than just a small budgeting faux pas.

The HK property market is extremely volatile.

PS: Water is wet.

There are jobs out there that will put wannabes into a control seat of an aircraft, write up to the RHS of a jet. It takes determination and leaving no stone unturned, just as little ole things like where and how much it will cost to live in your new adopted country. You may have to leave your beloved Europe, America(s), UK, Oz or NZ but there are jobs in Asia, Africa and smaller areas such as PNG. Funny how the harder you work the luckier you get. With real loggable hours from as little as a fresh CPL can get you into a control seat of an aircraft. Real, accountable hours give you ownership of your own destiny. Now you'll all want those web sites and links for jobs as well.....? When I decided against the CX insult I found myself with 3 interviews for jet jobs. In so doing I also discovered other jobs with min requirements that would apply to many, many iCadet applicants. Then again, I was able to look at CX and these other jobs without rose coloured glasses. A deliberate choice.

You last 2 paragraphs are possible some of the best advice I've seen for a long time.

I don't know the level of research and prep others have done for their CX interview. But I can see the result of their decision. And I can see the result, style and type of applicant CX now attracts.

[Jetpilot213]

The tiniest and slightly committed research would've exposed all these pitfalls.

Personally, I flew to HK for a holiday to see the place. I met with CX HR at CX City. In between beers with mates and Wan Chai inspired hangovers I went out and checked out many real estate agency windows, brochures and web sites. As for predicting the future of the HK market and where I may stand with respect to the package I was expecting to receive, I met with a few agents at the time whom my mates at CX referred me to, ie whom they had used and were well versed about the CX housing allowance. A few hours of time was the cost.

That's where I got all my "BULL$HIT" from: visiting HK and studying the property market from first hand (expert/reliable) sources.

So, is buying a ticket to fly to Hong Kong the "tiniest and slightly committed research" you're talking about? Or are you talking about the few websites you pulled up that talk about how the housing market is going up. If you're saying that doing some searches on google will uncover ALL the pitfalls of the offer, I would disagree, and your actions demonstrate that more was needed to uncover all the nuances. I was calling bull$#!t on your claim that only the tiniest research would uncover all the pitfalls. It takes a bigger investment of time than that.

Could I have done more research on living in Hong Kong? Yes. Maybe the studying I did to land the job was overkill. Hard to say. I do know it was sufficient to get the job, while working full time at the career I was in. Again, there were other personal motivating factors as well that I'd rather not include here.

[ChinaBeached]

Fair point. Replace "tiniest" perhaps with "what was needed" for a comprehensive understanding of the topic: just as should be done for the other topics of aerodynamics, met, the airline, etc. I saw flying to HK to get the answers I needed was but one way to place me in the best stead for the interview and job I sought.

No. The few web sites I demonstrated showed that factual information is out there. Just like a TAF, it shows a "best guess" from expert analysis. But like the wx, carry some contingency fuel and always leave yourself an out with more than one approach for when the "expert guess" / forecast is wrong, or for other unplanned circumstances. If the flightplan (or contract!) doesn't offer that then sometimes a pilot needs to know when to say NO.

I too had a full time job flying 90-95 hrs a month. I took annual leave to go to HK. The same workload when studying for the rest of the prep. Candle burnt at both ends for around 2+ months, but that was what it took and what those before me did as well. Nothing special or outside of the then norm.

Good luck and I hope you can get out. Stay FAR away from that agency you mentioned. Similar but maybe even worse than CX and how they treat a legal black & white contract.

[Flyer jazz]

:8 :8 :8

I couldn't agree more to the fact that many locals sign on because of the title with a big company. They reckon they can brag to their gold cashing friends. In Honkey land, it is all about status and names. As a local, no housing allowance, its alrite mate, people look up to me as a pilot And CX know most local pilots wouldn't go fussing about small houses and quality of life, they grew up in smaller spaces than they could afford now as a pilot.


Say, if you are from OZ, living in the small spaces in HK is by some means a downgrade, no? Not to mention, air pollution, expensive foreign brands that you could ve gotten for at 1/3 the price back home, ching chang everywhere, people see you as your job and not your person since they can't even speak English, most of your pay go to the rent. Don't even think of buying a car here, its value will only go downhill, and some might even spend more money on the parking & petrol than on the car itself! BAWDY :ugh:


Then you might ask why so many Pinoys, Thais or TWnese in CX living here, some even for sucha extended period? Whatever HK can offer is still a better lifestyle than living in their home country and eventually they are stuck in this industry and have no where else to go.


But to locals, most of them don't mind living with their parents (they spend most of their time outside anyways), and if you choose not to save money, you can rent a studio pad and splurge on your girl's expensive Prada and Guccis. Many of them join at the lure of the name and title and not totally the career prospect (at least for now). Good ole days no more!


Be thankful. At least as an expat, you have your home country to return to. But for them, most of them have no where but HK, unless they have another passport.

[dolpinsky]

Flyer jazz (http://www.pprune.org/members/407142-flyer-jazz)
I wonder if u really are a local. Or u might be those "locals" who grew up in southern area, studied at international school and threw party every weekands. what u said sounds funny to me.

First of all to many "real locals", the cpp from green and red is the easiest and most possible way to fulfill their dream of being an airline pilot, i highly doubt if status and names are the reasons for them to sign on. (again, i wonder if u are a cx pilot)

secondly, if i may ask, are u white? that's hilarous if u are not and complain about too many "chingchang" and people who cant speak english.