Convair 880

[BayAreaLondoner]

I was reading in Pacific Flyer, a local aviation paper, about a group that is trying to restore a Convair 880 out in the Mojave desert.
They're looking for volunteers and information, but even if you can't offer any of that, you may want to take a look at their site (http://www.convair880.com/).

[Lu Zuckerman]

If the restoration is like the original they may not be able to fly it into and out of major airports because of the black smoke generated by the engines. During the testing of the CV-880 in San Diego in 1958 they would lose hydraulics when they landed and operated the thrust reversers. This would cause the smoke to blow forward and be ingested into the two inboard engines causing them to shut down resulting in the loss of the two hydraulic pumps. The aircraft would be towed back to the takeoff area and the two engines restarted and the flight-testing would be resumed.

Another point is the extremely poor design for maintainability. Many of the primary and secondary flight control actuation and power systems were buried in the wing with no access panels. If a component were to fail Convair would develop a repair scheme and a hole would be made in the upper or lower wing skin in order to remove and replace the defective unit. A patch and doubler would be made and the hole patched over. If all of the elements of the flight control systems had not failed during normal service the new owners cannot verify the operational integrity of the power elements that have no access to them.

[Volume]

Also very interresting is the Convair 990 Restauration Project (http://web2.iadfw.net/astrojet/990/) but if you look at the page, you´ll notice it has not been updated for about a year now. Looks like the problems were far to much for realisation.

[KIFIS]

Greetings Lu, are you trying to spoil my day-!! I flew the Convair 880 22 m for five years and loved every minute of it and I always thought those smoky engines were caused by poor combustion.
Do you by any chance know anything about the " balance boards" that formed part of the aileron spoiler interconnect system and what would be the effect if the balance boards were removed? I've been having a discussion about this with another 880 pilot and I can't recall what the " balance boards" did.
The sleepmaker is going great.
Regards,

KIFIS

[Lu Zuckerman]

TO: KIFIS

I’m sorry that I can’t add to my comments. Although I have flown on both 880s and 990s I really don’t know much about either aircraft. The reference to the smoke and smoke ingestion was based on personal observations while attending a class on the Atlas missile at the San Diego Convair plant. The access panels or lack thereof was also based on observation. I noticed on one particular flight on an 880 there were no access panels on the upper wing surface. On the return flight on another 880 there were several access panels at various points on the upper wing surface. I asked several of my colleagues that had worked on the design of the 880 and they told me about access points being made on an ad hoc basis whenever a device failed.

[411A]

Well KIFIS...
Could it be that the "balance boards" used on the 880 were the same (more or less) as the "balance panels" used on the B707....ie: for aileron assist?

[KIFIS]

Lu Zukerman and 411A

Lu: Thanks for your input.

411A:
You are right, our discussion at this end is about what we call " balance boards " and you call " balance panels". You correctly call it " aileron assist " and our problem is that we can't remember anything about how they work. Some of us have flown the 880 with these " balance panels" disconnected (another story-!!) and the heaviness of the ailerons was extreme. Can you help with three questions:
(1) What do these panels look like?

(2) Where are they located:outside on the wing surface or inside as part of the mechanism?

(3) How do they actually exert pressure to assist the ailerons?

You would be forgiven if you form the opinion that I have never flown the 880 but I guess we are constantly reminded that one is never too old to learn.
Regards,

KIFIS

[411A]

KIFIS

Balance panels on the B707 are (in effect) servo tabs located in a cavity just in front of each inboard and outboard aileron and provide aerodynamic boost.
One precaution that I recall was the requirement to be SURE that no ice or snow was in these cavities during an exterior inspection in cold weather. The FAA during my type ride was very insistant about this and mentioned that the ailerons would take "two men and a boy" to move if these panels were iced up. As the 707 was heavy enough in roll, suspect this was good advice. As I recall these panels were about one third the size of the aileron and could be clearly seen from the underside of the wing.

[KIFIS]

411A:

Thanks for the info. I recall on a number of occasions being told at technical courses and refreshers quote: " not to worry about that " unquote and it looks to me as if the the balance panels slipped through the net as a " don't worry about" item. Amazing, ignorance is bliss. Thanks again.

KIFIS

[GlueBall]

Anyway, the Convair "880" model designation was based on 880 feet per second, eh? :cool:

[TEAM CONVAIR]

Hi everyone, It is great to see there is so much interest in the 880. I have not met one person who did not enjoy their time flying the 880. I unfortunately was not one of those that had a chance to fly it. They retired them 4 years before I got my airline job. I still love the plane and hope that with our dedication and with the volunteers we have, we can one day fly the plane again. Some people have wondered how we are going to tackle the tough work ahead. We wonder that ourselves sometimes. The people that I have met since becoming the number 2 guy in the organization have been terrific folks and I know with the right circumstances we can make it work. There may be a new twist to our story very soon which will bring about some major changes to the program and have us in the air sooner than we ever expected. I will check back often and update the forum when there are any changes. Please monitor our website at Convair880.com. We have a website monitor who is a volunteer and she has been very busy with her real job, so the site has not been updated in a while. She promises to make some of the changes soon. Thanks for any input you may have. We own the type certificates for the 880/990 and have yet to get through all the paperwork. If you want to volunteer, it is all in Mojave waiting to be put in some kind of order. Thanks, Team Convair:)

[Capt. Crosswind]

The CV880 was the strongest four engine jet transport ever built & probably ever will be built. Delta had a CV880 pull 6g in recovery from mishandling during training - the acft could not be faulted after extensive examination & returned to line service.

[Capt. Crosswind]

Like all Convair acft e.g. Metro 440 , the CV880 was built for performance first & so handling qualities were the trade off.
In the case of the CV880 the 35 degree sweepback & high wing loading caused problems to all on conversion.
If one mastered the acft ( some didn't ) the 880 was a delight to fly.

[Goodfellow]

The last time I saw an 880 was late on a June
evening roughly fifteen years ago in Sitka,
Alaska. The plane was taxiing for take off and
was wearing no paint whatever. It was filled with
freshly caught fish headed south to market.

Which brings to mind another story involving
Alaska and the 880: when jet transports were
first being introduced, Alaska Airlines leased an
880 in an effort to compete with PamAm's 707's
flying between Seattle and Fairbanks. To promote
the service Alaska Airlines erected a billboard
near SeaTac which bore a picture of the 880 and
the headline "Four Jets Daily to Alaska." When
the accuracy of this message was challenged, the
very colorful president of Alaska Airlines
supposedly said words to the effect, "There are
two jets under each wing. Count 'em. One. Two.
Three. Four."

[Capt. Crosswind]

ref Goodfellows report
Yes I believe the CV880 wound up hauling the more unsavoury freight around the Americas.
The airframe is good for another 50 years service but unfortunately it seems it is not possible to re-engine the Convair
(as for instance was the B727)
Question:
I heard that NASA at one time used the CV880 to train Shuttle Pilots, by climbing to 40,000 ft and doing a full glide approach at flight idle. The high wing loading of the 880 approximating the performance of the Shuttle . Does anyone out there in aviation cyberspace know if this is true ??

[I. M. Esperto]

I flew the 880 in 1966 and loved it. I was F/O, but I got to know the plane quite well.

High approach speed, but great brakes. The FE panel was the best ever made, IMO. "Grease Jobs" were easy.

Howard Hughes had a hard-on for Convair, and kept insisting they meet the spec's they originally offered. This caused many nightmares, a much modified aircraft, and an unprofitable experience for Convair.:)

[Boss Raptor]

The ex NASA 990 was parked up at Mojave at least it was a year ago...

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: I.M. Esperto

Another thing that Howard Huge did that put Convair in a pickle was he refused to take delivery of a bunch of CV-440s, which tied up a major portion of Convairs’ funds. Convair also thought they had a winner with the F-102 and F-106 but other companies came up with aircraft better suited for the mission and they lost out on that. By that time Convair got the contract for the Atlas ICBM but they felt that the aircraft business would be the major breadwinner for the company. In order to staff the new Astronautics division they transferred much of the management dead wood from the aircraft to the missile division. When the aircraft division took a nosedive the missile division was up and running and it was being operated by a bunch of idiots.

:confused:

[I. M. Esperto]

Lu - The 880 was to Convair what the L-1011 was to Lockheed.

Too bad really, as both were great aircraft in their time.

[Capt. Crosswind]

Thanks BOSS/R,
So it was a 990 NASA operated.
do you know if it is true that it was used to train Shuttle Pilots ??
the CV880/990 had by far the highest wing loading of any jet transport ever built so that gives some credence to the story.

[Capt. Crosswind]

to: IM Esperto

I agree - the CV880 could be greased on like oiled silk if you understood that right up to touch down sink rate was controlled by power.
Regretably many pilots found this difficult to comprehend.
Hauling back on the yoke to check sink rate in the flare just increased the rate of descent . Fortunately the 880 with a separate main gear Spar could take the punishment.

[KIFIS]

Captain Crosswind,

You are one hundred percent correct in what you say about landing the 880. The technique had to be learned and was simply " flare " first and then reduce the power. If you did it by reducing the power first, she would not respond to any amount of back-stick and would hit like a ton of bricks. Do it correctly and she would always reward you with that click, click, click.
Regards,

KIFIS

[pulse1]

I used to share the sky with Spantax "Coronados" around eghh back in the 70's. I never worried about not being able to see them because you could see the black cloud of smoke long before you saw the aeroplane. They invariable produced more smoke when tyres burst on the runway as they tried to stop. (before 26/08 was lengthened). They also used to take off on the shorter 35 as it was closer to the apron. I never saw any other airliner do that.

It would be great to see one flying again as it was the first jet airliner I ever flew in, operated by Air France.

[Capt. Crosswind]

To KIFIS
Thanks for your comment.
The convair engineers must have anticipated firm landings when they designed the acft with a MLG Spar to take the punishment.
Although all the Convairs may have been designed this way, I'm not sure as I regretably never had the opportunity to fly the 440.
Like its big brother the 880 those who flew the 440 sing its praise in song & verse. And like the 880 I hear it was not any easy acft to master & sorted out the pilots from the airframe drivers.

[I. M. Esperto]

I recall that the ultimate test of skill in those days (1960's- '70's) was landing the CV 880 at MKC.

Tight fit.

[Capt. Crosswind]

To: I.M.Esperto

I'm interested in your opinion on power handling thru' the flare out.
This was always a matter of debate, despite the fact that those who did not agree with the technique ( as described by KIFIS) regularly did clangers . Ah yes but they touched down on the
1000 foot point , they would proudly proclaim! ( Even when landing on a 10,000 ft runway !! And a smooth touchdown would have been made at 1200 / 1300 ft)

[Jhieminga]

Capt. Crosswind:

I do know that NASA used the 990 to test the Shuttle maingear and tires, with a seperate gear mounted between the normal bogies. Some pictures can be found on the Nasa site.

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/LSRA/index.html

Also the pilots train their landing skills on converted Gulfstream business jets if I remember correctly. Still searching for a link that has some more info on this.

[Lu Zuckerman]

I can’t dispute the material shown in the NASA picture file showing the tire being tested but I believe the shuttle landing gear itself came from a Douglas DC-9. I believe based on the Michelin advertising lately the test was to certify new tires for the shuttle. But then again other experts have proven me wrong in other areas.

:confused:

[BayAreaLondoner]

Jhieminga - yes I remember reading that too.
I found a story (http://www.elpasoinc.com/Archive/01_04_08/feature.html) about it on the web.

[Capt. Crosswind]

Thanks Jhieminga & Lou
It is easy to see how the 'CV880 training for Shuttle pilots' story started. I guess it grew from the Landing Gear testing - by the time it got around the bar twice it became a flight training operation.
New Subject:
I thought my previous post re power handling in the flare might
have flushed out the opposing camp?
Any takers for this debate ?

[Capt. Crosswind]

Thanks for web site Jhieminga.
Looking at the NASA photos reminds me of what a good looking acft the Convair is.
I do believe airplanes fly like they look.

[I. M. Esperto]

Captain Crosswind - I has been many years since I flew it, but I seem to recall closing the throttles when flaring. Company policy was to use this technique, and I do recall that it gave the proverbial greas job very often.

[KIFIS]

Lu Zukerman :

Lu, On an 880 pre-departure walkaround I was always pleased to see those words on the main wheel tyres that said " 200 mph ". Just seemed sort of comforting which I suppose is understandable when one considers that at MTOW plus a 10 knot tail wind ( which was allowable ) the 880 was approaching 200 mph during the rotation phase. This is one heck of a speed to be
lifting off.

Regards,

KIFIS

[HotDog]

KIFIS, do you still remember the test figures for your namesake?

TAS: 496 +/- 5 knots
SAT: 80oC +/- 1 C
ALT: 4000ft +/-50ft:)

[PaperTiger]

Is that the operation out of El Paso ? Several T-38s and G3s there. Google found this photo http://www.gulfstream.com/products/specialmissions/nasa/nf_index.htm

[BayAreaLondoner]

PaperTiger - yes I believe it is the El Paso operation.

[Capt. Crosswind]

Thanks Jhieminga & Paper Tiger
So NASA uses the G3 to train for the shuttle, which shoots down the bar room myth perpetrated by CV880 pilots that it was the Convair. Seemed a plausible story & even though it isn't true it should be.

[Capt. Crosswind]

To I.M.Esperto
Thanks for comment.
Yes, assuming good conditions a judicious reduction of power in the flare out was the accepted technique. Think of it as a smooth power reduction to reach flight idle just as the wheels make contact.
However if one encountered wind shear/sink in the flare it required a momentary increase in power to check the sink rate.
then continue the power reduction normally.
If you continued to reduce power and apply back pressure on the yoke you hit hard.

[Capt. Crosswind]

To I.M. Esperto
Tell us more on the MKC operation.
Sounds interesting

[HotDog]

Capt. Crosswind, in regard to the "bar room myth", I was involved in training a NASA crew on the CV880. Way back in the early seventies. Don't know what they used later but it certainly was not a bar room myth in those days.

[I. M. Esperto]

Captain Crosswind - MKC, the original Kansas City MO airport, was right downtown. Seriously, you could walk to your hotel in just a few minutes,

It was surrounded by the city, and the Missouri River. Runways were rather short, noise restrictions rather large, and flight patterns were a real challenge.

It was a very convenient airport however, and the PAX loved it.
TWA decided to move out into the boonies North of the city. Built a monstrocity of an airport with only 2 runways.

It was the beginning of the end of TWA. Catastrophic mismanagement in all areas.

[PaperTiger]

NASA had a total of 4 CV-990s.
NASA 711 (msn 1) used as a High Altitude Research Aircraft until written off in a midair with a P-3.
NASA 712 (37) also HARA, written off March AFB.
NASA 713 (29) HARA, then Landing Systems Research (LSRA) for the shuttle, renumbered 710 then 810 and the one now at Mojave.
msn 4 never allocated a NASA number as it crashed on delivery in Indonesia. Fuselage rescued and still at Ames as far as I know. I don't know its purpose.

Although the LSRA was obviously a part of the STS program, it was a systems vehicle not an astronaut crew trainer. I had a contact at NASA (who seems to have dropped off the radar so can't confirm), but this is how I remember it being told to me.
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/LSRA/

[Capt. Crosswind]

Thanks I.M.
Sounds like one for command check outs!
I guess with some low viz in rain & a wet runway it was an operation where you got 100 hrs aeronautical experience in the last ten minutes of the flight.

[Capt. Crosswind]

Thanks Paper Tiger et al.
Well we've learnt a lot about an interesting period in aviation thanks to the competent research by those who posted on this forum.
Thanks all

[foxile]

A couple of questions, reviving this old thread...

I am taking a drive down close to Lisbon at the weekend and wondered if the example used as a bar is still present on the outskirts of the airport? Would love to see one, as never have, but don't want make a worthless detour.

Latest info I can find is over 12 months old so any update much appreciated.

Also am I safe to assume the restoration project in the US was not successful as this thread obviously died and the web-site does not seem to be working anymore... ?


MTIA

Foxile

[barit1]

A second-hand story from a guy who was involved:

TWA had about 20 880's that were grounded about the time of the 1973 oil embargo. They wanted desperately to find a way to get a fan engine tacked on to revive its practicality, and also had a batch of early JT8D's (-7's maybe) surplus - so it was logical to investigate re-engining.

Many of the engineering challenges were overcome, but cost was prohibitive. And I don't know if the slow windup of early JT8's would have been very safe with a quick airplane like the 880.

* * * *

A more bizarre tale: Spantax really liked the 990, and wanted to find someone to convert it to a twin-CF6 configuration. I'm incredulous at how much the undercarriage would have to be stretched...

[PLovett]

Thank you to posters such as Capt.Crosswind and others for the information about the landing characteristics of the aircraft.

It explains the reason for the "arrival" I suffered as a passenger on one of Swissairs Convairs in 1974 flying from Zurich to London Heathrow.

I use the word arrival advisedly. All of the overhead lockers sprung open disgorging their contents on the unsuspecting pax below. The flight attendants looked decidedly green when they went forward to disarm the doors and the pax were decidely quiet, especially those continuing to New York on the flight.

Me, I enjoyed it. :}

[Airways Ed]

The 880 at Mojave remains a 'future project', at least to static display status.

The URL is www.lostbirds.com although the link to the 880 project is not active.

[Dr Illitout]

Hi Gang
I was in Zurich last month being shown the way of the Airbus. Part of the course was a trip to the engine store. After gazing at the various big fans I noticed a low bypass engine in the corner. It was a fully overhauled, stored CV990 engine!. It was all blanked up properly and had servicable Swissair lables on it.
In the engine shop(stop two on the tour) was a sectioned one as well.

Rgds Dr.I.

[barit1]

That aft fan is an interesting variant, agreed!

I took the train to Luzern and visited the Transportation Museum. A 990's on display there, as well as a lovely Lockheed Orion.

[Seloco]

Foxile:

I was in Lisbon last week and confirm that the 880 is still there, close to the airport. It is not in great shape, and appears to be being used as a strip joint (not that I went in, of course...).

I do wonder how they got into such a constricted site - unless of course it was a rather lengthy over-run.

[foxile]

Airways:
Thanks for the upate on the project.

Seloco:
Thanks for your reply. My suspicions confirmed; that my old scout master would be ashamed of me! I was there the weekend before last and couldn't find it. Although, driving on Lisbon's roads whilst trying to follow a local does provide a little distraction. (Lame excuse I know....)

Would it be possible for you to PM me sometime with the location in relation to the main entrance (Approaching from the A1 motorway as I would be travelling from Porto), so next time I can get that photo. Thanks, much appreciated.



Foxile

[destructoden]

Coming back to this thread again...I just wanted the fans of the 880 to know that the Convair 880 project may be getting back online.

I recently purchased 2 of the 880s from the FAA for salvage. Negotiations for sale of the complete 880 are underway. This ship has not been modified and is a serious contender for getting in the air!

The other has already been partially disassembled and is destined to become another product after scrapping. Will keep you advised when parts/seats/insturments become available from this aircraft....

Sorry, won't be converting other into strip club, don't think anyone goes into the one in Lisbon to see the interior of the plane anyway....:mad: