John Sergeant and The Sea King, 28th Feb

[MightyGem]

After his programme on the Spitfire in 2011, he returns with one about the Sea King:
Archie returns to aviation with BBC2 » Realscreen (http://realscreen.com/2012/09/20/archie-returns-to-aviation-with-bbc2/)

[smujsmith]

Bit of a lad our John, reminds me of many an old Herk Captain ( A certain Colin comes to mind). I suspect, if he was ever in the mob, he would be out in mufti with his service shoes on every night ! But nice to see an attempt to pay credit to the aircraft and its crews. Look forward to it.

[Rosevidney1]

Why oh why do 'celebrities' get involved in specialist subjects far beyond their understanding? For the money of course, but why should a television company commission a 'celeb' instead of somebody who really knows his stuff? Do they really think nobody will watch unless a recognisable 'name' is tied to it? Then again, it is the BBC and we pay for the entire bloated broadcasting empire.

[smujsmith]

I would hate to cast any nasturtiums on your dissertation "Rose", but, I think the reason that people like him are used is that they will pull in a wider, more diverse, viewership than one that has only fact and "specialist opinion" to offer. Personally the thought of watching an hour long programme on the Sea King, narrated by John Nicholson (Tornado Navigator) would ensure my TV never got near the channel. I agree with your thoughts on the BBC, but think that John Sarjent is a good choice to present a program which should give due respect to the aircraft and its crews, whilst, having a bit of banter to keep the non anoraks engaged.

Smudge

[ExAscoteer]

WTF would Nichol know about the Sea King FFS?

Oh that's right, after getting shot down owing to him having a switch pigs, he became the UK expert on all things aviation.






NOT!

[smujsmith]

Exactly, what you said !!

[PeregrineW]

I like John Sergeant's style of presentation, personally speaking. He has a good reputation as a journalist, so I'd expect his research to be up to scratch. Thanks for the heads up re the programme, I'll be putting it on the planner.

[airborne_artist]

JS may look and act like a friendly uncle but he was a formidable journalist in his time.

John Sergeant (journalist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sergeant_%28journalist%29#Highlights)

[Tengah Type]

John Nichol perchance?

[Geezers of Nazareth]

Would it work with John S presenting the program alongside somebody who *is* an expert ...? almost in a 'teach the celeb about ...' scenario. John S gets to ask questions about it, introduce a few stories about it, gets shown around it, but the expert is the one with all the knowledge and stories.

It doesn't really matter what the *it* is - it could be a corporation dustcart, a steam engine, a Sea King, a nuclear submarine. We all know that the star of the show is the _thing_, but I'd rather have the story told by an expert.

When you think back to the program about the last days of the Shackleton (was that really 20 years ago?!), the Shack was the star, and the RAF personnel telling their stories were the experts, and the commentator was not seen on screen.

[Willard Whyte]

Why oh why do 'celebrities' get involved in specialist subjects far beyond their understanding? For the money of course, but why should a television company commission a 'celeb' instead of somebody who really knows his stuff? Do they really think nobody will watch unless a recognisable 'name' is tied to it? Then again, it is the BBC and we pay for the entire bloated broadcasting empire. Because, for the most part, experts, as exemplified by the many pedants who frequent these parts, are quite simply boring, blinkered, unintelligent tw@ts.

[NutLoose]

Bit of a lad our John, reminds me of many an old Herk Captain ( A certain Colin comes to mind). I suspect, if he was ever in the mob, he would be out in mufti with his service shoes on every night ! But nice to see an attempt to pay credit to the aircraft and its crews. Look forward to it.


Reminds me of showing some new guy around years ago, on asking how long he'd been out of the RAF, he said I never said I was in the RAF and how did I know, I pointed down at a nicely polished pair of RAF shoes :E

Looking forward to it, his last one was a damn good show, and not one of these boring bods talking tripe.

And if you never saw his last show, I would recommend it

Bomber Command
John Sergeant pays tribute to the aircrews of RAF Bomber Command who died serving their country and tells the stories of some of the surviving members, including bomb aimer Andy Wiseman, pilot Bill Lucas, rear gunners Bob Gill and Harry Irons, and navigator Harry Hughes. On June 28, the Queen unveiled a memorial in London's Green Park to honour the 55,573 men who gave their lives in bombing raids during the Second World War.

..

[euringineer]

In the 70/80s you could tell who was ex RAF in civil airlines by the shoes, socks and grey canvas nav bag ( aah nostalgia ).
Enthusiasts present the truth and journalists dont want to, why spoil a good story
It'll be HRH Andy in the Falklands and HRH Wills in the Highlands and the rest?

[Stratofreighter]

The specifics:

BBC Two - The Sea King: Britain's Flying Past (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r1z3g)

Thu 28 Feb 2013 21:00 BBC Two (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo)

Sun 3 Mar 2013 18:30 BBC Two (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo) England only

[Geezers of Nazareth]

One of the TV Listings web-sites for today has a comment about the show, and says 'as flown by HRH Prince Andrew during the Falklands War' ... I thought he flew the Lynx. I've certainly got a photo of the nose of an RN Lynx with 'HRH Prince Andrew' painted on it.

[Seaking93]

HRH Prince Andrew certainly flew the Sea King HAS5 during the Falklands War, as a member of 820NAS and the airframe concerned(XZ574) is now on show in the Falklands 30 Exhibition at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, later he converted to the Lynx.

[Thomas coupling]

Was he also 815 NAS?

[Seaking93]

815NAS flying the Lynx

[Banana Boy]

He's annoying me....keeps mentioning 'Culrose'. Could someone not have stressed the 'd'?

[Megaton]

Argggghhhh he's just done it again.

[Squirrel 41]

Sadly, not even this will stop the totally stupid privatisation of the air-sea rescue force in 2016. :*

S41

[Flypro]

CULROSE???????????!!!!!:{

[wiggy]

Apart from the dropped "d's" I'd say good effort - not much HRH at all, and when the divers involved in the MV Muree rescue told their stories...gulp.......:ok:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Wow! What a program. Congrats to John Sergeant and more than that, deepfelt thanks to the guys who have served their Sea King time with absolute devotion to duty and have saved so many lives.

Anyone who doesn't feel proud of what they have seen tonight needs a check-up.

[Evalu8ter]

Great programme, lots of familiar faces (not just the obvious ones) - BZ/Well done as appropriate. Would be nice to get '298 and '718/BN together before the former is retired......Perhaps the 2 most combat experienced airframes in the UK military?

[clicker]

Much better than I thought it was going to be.

I did chuckle when they mentioned the Fastnet race showing a brief veiw of a Wessex.

[smujsmith]

Smashing program, well presented with due respect to the aircraft and its operators and maintainers. Well done says I!

[Marly Lite]

I am sure John Sargeant is, in fact, Jo Brand in a trilby hat!

[Tourist]

Somewhere, at this very moment, there is a Bagger Sqn PRO dreading tomorrows chat with the Boss.....

[Hueymeister]

Great programme. Nicely done, a tad navy-centric, but she's done so much it must have been difficult to shrink it down to 1hr!

[snafu]

I thought John Sergeant did OK, even if he couldn't pronounce CulDrose, I'm sure the Pingers, SAR Queens and Baggers won't have minded....much!

ZA298 is definitely a legendary cab - surely it's got to be the most obvious donation to the FAA MUseum once it's retired from service? Nice to see Neil Copeland talking about his downbird team and their efforts in the Patrol Base - they did a monumental job to strip so much weight out of the cab overnight so that the Chinook could lift it out at first light, he thoroughly deserved his Commendation! :ok:

Mind you, a blade change in about 2 hours in the field during the Falklands and then back into tasking - awesome!! I'm not sure the MAA would let us get away with that one any more!:}

[NutLoose]

I enjoyed it and think he is definitely one of the better presenters where military aircraft are involved, his bomber command programme hit the nail., top that off with the tactful use of background music, used where needed, but not overpowering and drowning out the narration. :ok: why can other producers not learn from the series of programmes he has been involved with.
Noticed a few Wessex door shots slipped in early on, but nothing to detract from the programme. As for the two George Cross divers on the back of the ship...... Totally well deserved and as in situations like that, totally unassuming, hats off to them, without doubt two well earned decorations, one just hopes they never have to sell them on to pay for their future care... Grrrrrrr.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Was it me or was the ASW role (why the UK had Sea King in the first place) pretty much ignored?

[Evalu8ter]

Huey,
The SK has been an overwhelmingly Navy asset; I guess the Navy PR machine was happy to help - and a good job they did too. Of course the RAF SAR guys have done some gnarly rescues but the programme was only an hour....The RAF can't really complain given the coverage the Chinook has had over the past few years.

WEBF,
It was referenced but it's not as public friendly as SAR. As Tourist said there might be a few questions asked within the Bagger community though....

Nice to see the Queenie get her moment in the sun. Having flown her a bit, she's not bad for a 'half-helicopter'!

[airborne_artist]

I didn't know that the SK4 had a gents changing area installed. JS must have used it to take off the dry suit and pop his pink civvy shirt on during the flight out to Illustrious.

Or perhaps the editor thought we wouldn't notice? :E

[Unchecked]

Bugger - missed it! Anyone know when I can catch a repeat?

Thanks.

[aviate1138]

iPlayer - you can watch when you want to.

[Tashengurt]

I am sure John Sargeant is, in fact, Jo Brand in a trilby hat!

The resemblance is uncanny.

[Not_a_boffin]

Was it me or was the ASW role (why the UK had Sea King in the first place) pretty much ignored?

It's difficult since the last HAS6s went to Sultan or SFDO ten years ago, unlike 771 and 846 where you've still got an active unit to talk about Junglie or SAR.

I'm with Tourist though. Somewhere in 849 squadron building is a very unhappy bunny I suspect.

[RedhillPhil]

The resemblance is uncanny.

I think that it was on "The One Show" that they both appeared some little time ago when he said something along the lines of, "We're here to quash the rumour that we're never seen in the same room to-gether" to enormous guffaws all round.

[aviate1138]

With regards to the missing "D" maybe John S being a near local lad is using local dialect/spelling?

Hansard.....


HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1940s → 1945 → November 1945 → 7 November 1945 → Commons Sitting → ROYAL NAVY
R.N.A. Station, Culrose (Road Material)

HC Deb 07 November 1945 vol 415 cc1253-4 1253
§4. Mr. Stokes asked the First Lord of the Admiralty in view of the decision not to proceed further with the Culrose R.N.A. Station, Cornwall, whether he is aware that loads of clinker, stone and tarmac are still being delivered to the site in spite of the fact that this material is needed for the repair of local roads; and if he will now terminate this waste of road material.
Mr. Alexander My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in thinking that it has been decided not to proceed further with this station. It is essential to finish certain parts of the work to prevent serious deterioration, and this applies to the partially completed roads and runways for which this material is required.
§Mr. Stokes Why is it necessary to complete roads and runways when it has been decided not to complete the aerodrome for some years yet? Is my right hon. Friend aware that all this material and labour is urgently wanted elsewhere, and that there are complaints all round regarding the waste that is taking place?
Mr. Alexander My hon. Friend is really never satisfied.
§Mr. Stokes No.

[dervish]

I suspect one reason why the ASaC wasn't mentioned is the MoD (not RN) PR machine would be scared of the obvious question "So what's replacing it?"

At least they would have plausible (if not entirely sensible or reasonable) answers for SAR, ASW, SH.

[Molemot]

I think he looks like a cross between John Betjeman and Jonathan Meades! Thoroughly enjoyed the programme.

[NutLoose]

Posted over on the Flypast Site

Seaking Chesil beach
After last nights programme on the Seaking I was wondering if any one could help a little here please. The cannon weighing around 30cwt is being lifted from the water on Chesil beach Portland to be placed ashore where it was put on display forty years ago, certainly has to be a unique way of raising an 18th century cannon! The cannon will be on the move again soon as part of a new display and we were hoping that all the folks involved in the original lift might have a bit of a reunion to mark the occasion. Looking at old photographs of those involved i.e. divers, museum representatives etc. there are quite a few survivors thankfully but what of the helicopter crew and may be even the helo itself?
Cheers Grahame
www.theshipwreckproject.com



http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212584&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1362139796

Seaking Chesil beach - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=122784)

[bast0n]

Was it me or was the ASW role (why the UK had Sea King in the first place) pretty much ignored?

Perhaps because in the history of aviation no helicopter has ever found and successfully sunk a submarine............................!

or am I wrong?

Running for cover from the Pingers now.........................:O

[MAINJAFAD]

Perhaps because in the history of aviation no helicopter has ever found and successfully sunk a submarine............................!

Most likely slotted the odd whale or two back in 82, However a Helicopter has found a sub and attacked it, causing major damage.....Just wasn't a Sea King and the sub wasn't submerged.

[Hamish 123]

Out of interest, can anyone tell me why Sea Kings have one of their main rotor blades painted yellow? Is it to increase visibility of the rotor disc when in motion or something?

[snaggletooth]

Exactly that, when viewed from above.

[airborne_artist]

More likely that stores ran out of green/black ones ;)

[P6 Driver]

As for the two George Cross divers

George Cross or George Medal?

Either way, they were both impressive to listen to.

[Antrim Kate]

George Medals:

Viewing Page 12275 of Issue 52218 (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/52218/supplements/12275)

Utterly humbling.

[500N]

"Utterly humbling"

+ 10

Very impressive work.

[seadrills]

Not surprised that the BBC avoided discussing the Baggers. What do they do ?

[FODPlod]

Not surprised that the BBC avoided discussing the Baggers. What do they do?
According to this, Baggers drive Daggers :) :Baggers Drive Daggers into Heart of the Insurgents (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2011/July/21/20110721_Baggers-help-drive-daggers-into-the-heart-of-the-Afghan-insurgency)

[tucumseh]

I thoroughly enjoyed it. Well done the BBC and MoD.

[Cornish Jack]

Re. CulDrose pronunciation by 'locals' ... NO!! we don't leave out the D!!. Apart from that, rather a lot of 'cringe-making' in JS's presentation, poor editing and little appreciaion of the aircraft as distinct from the people who operated it.
Would probably have spoiled the story to point out that a SEARCH & rescue helo is not best served by a SEARCH radar which is blanked in the forward direction by the gearbox 'shadow'. I know, it didn't matter for 'pinging' but S&R ?? It COULD have been so much better - the helo, that is.
Oh and for the usual BBC bashing suspects, the Beeb was the commissioning customer NOT the programme maker.

[GrumpyGramps]

I seem to remember it happened by accident when I was at Lossiemouth back in the 80's. I think we had a Sea King fitted with a light grey blade which was very noticeable from above. Later the yellow blade was introduced as some protection from all the fast jets with small windows and short sighted pilots.

[tucumseh]

CJ

I think we have to distinguish between the basic aircraft, which is superb, and equipment. The original radar had a 28 degree blind arc and, as you say, was acceptable for ASW. This imitation was understood and at the first opportunity, only a few years after Mk1 ISD, a development contract was let which resulted in a 14 degree blind arc (approx) and much higher power. (The spec was written by RRE).

In this period, the RAF took delivery of the Mk3 and retained the old RN radar with the large blind arc/low power. When they had the Mk3A approved, in about 1993, the RN were getting shot of the newer radar as Merlin was due, and offered the RAF sufficient scanners, transmitters etc to upgrade. Not quite free of charge, but a lot cheaper than what they did, which was get a digital processor and colour display, which left them with a hybrid which was neither here nor there.

Part of the problem here was that even into the mid-90s the RAF's radar maintenance policy was 1A, 2BC at RNARW Copenacre, 3BCD at Fleetlands. The problem was RNARW had closed in about 1983 (!) and the entire 2/3 line burden fell to Fleetlands. But, as the RN had replaced this radar, Fleetlands' capacity had been chopped by 80% (as 80% of aircraft now had the new radar).

Allied to this, RN observers were trained on the RNGT, a raw radar. They expected noise paint on the screen. But many RAF observers were trained on the BPRT, and in 1989 we had the ludicrous situation whereby, despite having inherited 140 old radars from the RN, the RAF didn't have enough serviceable out of a stock of 180 to fit a 20 aircraft Mk3 fleet. Well over 100 complete radars were "awaiting final test" at Fleetlands at any one time. Poor or non-existent training meant the operators were rejecting them for "noise", as they expected clean "digital" displays. There was a 99% No Fault Found Rate at Fleetlands, but the test bottleneck meant a backlog. In one 3 month period around this time, every single Sea King Mk3 had a complete radar change, every day. Not one of them was u/s. That was a far bigger problem to MoD than the blind arc.

I remember us going to Finningley to suss the problem. My oppo (best radar diag in the MoD) was standing next to the radar instructor in the aircraft on the pan. We could see the nearby church spire, but little else. He said, if with go up to 1000', that's still all we'll see. My mate reached across and tweaked Swept Gain and the screen lit up. "FFS, we're not allowed to touch these controls". Yes you are, the ones you can't touch are under this screwed down flap. Two days later we delivered a full training rig and documentation. And we dropped £80 in the mess bandit.


The German version (Mk42 I think) overcame this by having both nose and dorsal radomes, but this was a different radar.

[tornadoken]

I missed first half so only twice heard him commend this fine British aircraft. Please tell me that early on someone mentioned Sikorsky and GE.

[Tourist]

You gotta love pprune.

Somebody makes an asinine statement about pingers and how a blind arc doesn't matter to them
Somebody else confirms this and suddenly it's fact!

For your information, it is vastly more important and limiting to a pinger aircraft that there is a blind arc than to the glory boys sittting around watching sky waiting for some **** to fall off a cliff.

[TomJoad]

Excellent show - congrats to BBC and John S, rather have a true enthusiast than a so called expert boring the pants over I remember the Mk1-4 a dash 526 bla bla in which the inverter wiring was blue rather than green bla bla . Hope he does more - Lancaster as may have been hinted at.

[cuefaye]

A most enjoyable, memorable, and poignant piece - despite the big girl's blouse.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Its on again tomorrow night (Sunday). A click will tell you what time from any TV program listing. Sorry about that.

[dmcrun]

The production used out of 'cab' clips from a Wessex when 'dramatising' the yacht rescue, how lazy

[Thone1]

@tucumseh:
German Sea King: Mk41. Radar: SeaSpray Mk 3 with nose and rear antenna.

@all:

I did enjoy the documentary, quite personal at times, moving stories, a decent (early) farewell to one of the most versatile, flexible, durable and amazing helicopters that ever was around.

(Although the Sea King will continue to fly for at least another 10 to 15 years in Germany)

Tom

[smujsmith]

Just to be sure, I've just watched it again. I have to say, IMHO, it's not too bad a program. I dread to think how it could have been carved up, John Nichol commentates on Martin Shaw and brother doing the "proffesional" flying. Nah, stick to Jo Brands twin brother, it'll do for me ! :)

[FODPlod]

Why was the cab in which the baby was born registered in Germany? Was it on attachment from the Marineflieger?

[Cornish Jack]

Tucumseh - thank you for that bit of enlightenment ... my time with the SK was early test flying at Boscombe and it seemed to me that there was so much that could have been improved for its intended role - but compromise rules, as ever!:ugh:
Tourist - the non-relevance of the forward arc for pinging was something which was said to me by my mentors at CulDrose when I did a short introductory course with them. I, generally, accept the view of them 'as knows about' these things. My personal view is coloured by the loss of two crews off Falmouth and two in the Gulf which MIGHT have been avoided by a forward radar view. "If wishes were horses" ... etc.!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

[John Farley]

Cornish

You seem very heavy on the CulDrose thing but you do not discuss your reasons. Do you feel Hansard was a mistake? Do you feel the senior RN officer on the prog was also making a mistake? If so I wonder why.

[Mick Strigg]

Cornish; the two in the Gulf were AEW SK, so their radars have no blind arcs forward!

And what two off Falmouth? i don't remember that one.

[airborne_artist]

And what two off Falmouth? i don't remember that one. Possibly referring to the two 820 Sqn SKs that collided off St Catherine's Point on 6th March 1981 when flying from/to Invincible. Casualties were:

BATEMAN, Robert W, Sub Lieutenant,
LITTLETON, Paul, Lieutenant,
MARCHMENT, Ian J, Leading Aircraft Mechanician (A/CMN),
MCDONALD, Marcus H, Sub Lieutenant, (Service no. two off mine)
ROUE, David F, Lieutenant Commander, (After whom the trophy is named)

[Mick Strigg]

Yes, AA; I was there. Nowhere near Falmouth though! And that accident wasn't due to blind-arcs either.

[Cornish Jack]

The CulDrose pronunciation irritant is just parochialism as are the non-local's usual efforts at Mousehole, Launceston, Fowey etc. Just put it down to 'grumpy old man' syndrome. :*
Radar positioning? The only reason I can think of for putting it there is weight concentration close to the mast/CG. My limited exposure to the SK was mainly in the initial stages of winch trials at Boscombe and as a machine intended for THAT specialist role, it seemed to me that there was room for improvement - but that is a universal 'given'.:oh:

[Tourist]

Cornish

As previously stated.

Bagger cabs have 360 radar.
820 is a pinger sqn.


Pingers almost always work in pairs. At night/IMC a radar is what keeps them alive. The endless "clear blind arc right/left" is imprinted on my brain for ever.
A pinger works from a ship. It has to find that ship. It then has to control itself to the ship by HCA/ELVA which is a radar controlled approach to the ship. Approaching a ship by radar control when you cannot see the direction you are going is challenging.....
Think about it.

SAR cabs require a radar on I would guess 1% of shouts. Usually on your own, got GPS, and very rarely actually radar "search".
It happens, of course, but even the low level landfall apprach is rare. You could pretty much do away with a radar, and the RN never even used to have observers on the SAR for exactly that reason. If you needed somebody on the radar we just pinched an observer from a pinger sqn.

Blind arc effect on SAR, almost zero.
Blind Arc effect on Pinger, huge.


Oh, and by the way, it is CulDrose! Always has been , and in fact before the program had never heard it mispronounced.

[cuefaye]

before the program had never heard it mispronounced.

By the big girl's blouse!

[sargs]

Tucumseh, your post on 2nd March is, unusually for you, only half the story – it’s also written from the engineer’s perspective and not the operators.

When the Sea King replaced the Whirlwind in RAF service it was recognized that trained radar operators would be required, and these were recruited from AEOps from the Nimrod fleet, experienced in operating ASV 21D. However, you’re right to say that by the mid-90s the standard of radar operating was not good. The main reasons for this were quite complex, but boiled down to the fact that many RAF Sea King radar operators (or radar instructors, for that matter) did not come from radar operating backgrounds – they were a mix of Navigators, Nimrod acoustic operators and SH-trained Loadmasters. Those few Nimrod radar operators that were selected for SAR (on a course designed solely to assess winchop and winchman skills) were, as you say, trained on and experienced in processed radar. However, your assertion that the radops were staring at the screen wondering what all the noise was is plain wrong, almost to the point of insult. I remember the period you allude to as I was a radop at Lossiemouth at the time and although I didn’t have the overall perspective you had, I remember that the radars as fitted were weak and seemed underpowered. None of the radops at Lossie at that time would have rejected radars because they “expected clean digital displays” as at least two of the five of us were ASV 21D trained. The Swept Gain story is also a typical engineer’s tale – whilst I’ve no doubt it happened as you say, the fact was that radar instructors at that time advocated leaving swept gain alone, as it had a very powerful effect on the display and without understanding exactly how it worked you could get yourself in trouble with it. It’s also quite likely that the operator you dealt with at Finningley was not an experienced radar operator, or even a radop at all. Still, your tale paints (geddit?) a MoD-satisfying picture of untrained operators so incompetent they couldn’t understand either the display or the controls, rejecting serviceable radar after serviceable radar through sheer ignorance.

The real problem was that instructors could not see the operator’s display because of the Fresnel lens over the CRT. Without this supervision, it was difficult to convey to a tyro radar operator exactly what he was expected to see in front of him. The RN had a very good rig down at Culdrose, which was made available to our students on SKTU, but once they moved on to the SAR flights they never saw a rig again. I don’t even remember the “full training rig” you delivered; I certainly never received training on it. This was the reason the RAF opted not to upgrade from old RN stock, but instead to procure a display that both the operator and instructor could see simultaneously – it also had the side benefit of being a processed radar that all future radops, recruited from the Nimrod MR2, would be comfortable with. Although a bit of a lash up, it was not a “neither here nor there hybrid”, it was a radar that could provide phenomenal SA in busy sea areas such as the Thames estuary and one which gave the crews enormous confidence.

[sargs]

Tourist, your assertion that SAR cabs could do away with radar, and that blind arc is so much more important to the pingers, is just plain rubbish. I've often used (not just 1%) radar on SAR, for searching, let downs (both coastal and open water) and general SA. I understand blind arc limitations as well as any pinger crew - I would imagine they affect us equally. It's not a major problem, and coping with it is relatively straightforward, but when you're in the hover near a busy sea lane and trying to prevent being run over by 40,000t of container ship, blind arc is a pain in the @rse. I'm sure my captain, asking me in our MS10 after the event why I didn't see that ship coming, would take great comfort from my reply that the chances of that happening to a SAR cab were "almost zero".

You have a very strange idea of how SAR crews operate...

[Tourist]

sargs

I'm and ex pinger and ex SAR...

Unlike you, I'm not imagining anything.

I know which has more use for a 360 radar.

Radar u/s in a SAR cab in most cases mildly irritating.
Radar u/s in a pinger, no point in going.

[sargs]

Radar u/s in a SAR cab in most cases mildly irritating.

Yeah, alright then. I suppose after all these years I still don't understand radar...at least, as comprehensively as a Looker...:hmm:

[seadrills]

The 820 crash in 1981 had nothing to do with the radar - despite the weather being awful. Nope, it was all about running when we couldn't even crawl. ...too fast too soon.

RIP Ringbolters.

[tucumseh]

sargs

Thanks for filling in detail. Yes, I'm an engineer and try not to encroach! Our main concern at the time was the astronomical cost of supporting radars for a 20 (?) aircraft SAR Mk3 fleet. It should have been a 5 minutes, once a fortnight task, but was eating up time and budget. It was an obvious question. Why did the RN need fewer radars and funding for 82 ASW aircraft, with a more expensive/complex radar? Forgive me, but the attitude in the RAF at the time was, we've 180 radars to play with, so what if we change them daily. The LTC line was constructed as "Sea King Radar", which meant there was a knock-on effect on the RN if 20% of the aircraft consumed 80% of the funding.

If I remember correctly, the radar was (more) easily viewed in an RN aircraft, but the RAF had their curtain (for want of the correct term)

No names, and I can't recall anyway, but the Finningley man was the Instructor, a Sqn Ldr. He was very supportive and quite annoyed at the lack of training HE had received. The rig was delivered from Daedalus as they had 4 and no longer needed them. (I do recall their instructor - Paddy). It was quite a basic failure. A 2nd Line workshop was constrained to a Depth A maintenance policy through lack of training.

Don't let this obscure the main (dis)organisational problem. It should have been the RAF support people (AMSO) who made provision for proper training, rigs, pubs etc; and prevented the waste in the first place. The SAR bosses (perhaps still in Empress State at the time?) were tearing their hair out. So, one part of the RAF was ignoring another. At a more senior level (1 Star) the problem only became apparent when SAR readiness plummeted due to lack of radars.

I'm trying not to have a pop at the RAF. At the time (post-formation of ASE), solving such problems in the RN quite clearly fell to the MoD(PE) project manager (in this case there was an IPT covering fire control and surveillance radars) and the RN had a single point of contact for all problems. That postholder was selected for his background. But the RAF remained fragmented and it was impossible to tie down anyone on each component. AEDIT (?) at Finningley were astonished someone from what was basically an RN-orientated IPT, with total authority, could just pitch up and crack the problem without being asked (and that is the biggest indictment). The later IPT model (1999) couldn't do that, being constrained by personnel policy, lack of delegated powers and stove-piping.

Interesting difference of opinion over the blind arc, which serves to highlight the difficulty OR had. My main point was the arc could have been halved in the Mk3A at less cost, with minimal cost for Mk3 retrofit; as no radar equipment had to be bought and there would have been huge support and training benefits through commonality.

[Union Jack]

If you are dark blue, and need some light relief, you may care to have a look at Sea King: BBC2 9pm Thursday 28 FEB 2013 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/508708-sea-king-bbc2-9pm-thursday-28-feb-2013-a.html) if you haven't done so already ....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Jack

[tucumseh]

Sorry, I was having difficulty locating the report I wrote at the time. It was 15th February 1989. I erred slightly, above.

When ARW closed in 1983 the RAF were advised this removed their only 2nd line / Depth B/C facility and alternative arrangements would be necessary. (This closure was the single worst act of vandalism ever perpetrated on avionic support by the RN and ultimately cost tens of millions!!). It was wrong of me to suggest Finningley were meant to carry out 2nd line to any depth - no such capability was initiated, and the MP remained, as I said, 2nd Line at ARW despite it being closed down. Hence, the tendency to hook out the entire radar, at all front line detachments, regardless of "fault".

The report states there were 14 operational Mk3s on that day, none with radar fitted and all role limited. That sounds about right for a fleet of about 20. As it was no longer policy to know what assets any Service had, the report simply estimates "at least" 150 Light Weight Radars in service, to support 14 a/c. My 180 (above) would include those retained by the RN for apprentice training etc, plus those modified to Weather Mode variant (which the RAF paid for and modified, but then never fitted).

The main maintainer issue was how they adjusted Receiver Gain after installing a new Control Radar Set. (An internal adjustment of a pot, and a separate adjustment to the Swept Gain I mention, which was an Operator issue). Essentially, they looked for noise paint, then reduced gain until it disappeared; reducing system gain to nothing. This reflected a lack of experience on raw radars. As they had no pubs, instructions or training the procedure was passed down by word of mouth. It was completely different from that used by Fleetlands and the Design Authority, so any LRU received at 1st Line was perceived to be "wrong", when in fact it was correct. About 95% of rejections were recorded at MACE, Swanton Morley as "Low Gain" or "Poor Video"; with 99% of those determined as No Fault Found at 3rd Line. The report characterises this as a "gross waste of money".

Actions included Fleetlands delivering a properly calibrated complete radar, as opposed to individual LRUs, to be flown in a trial. This system was the subject of two Concessions by the DA as it deviated from the RRE spec to "better" meet RAF expectations and allow for the fact they had no 2nd Line capability. And the aforementioned Training/Hot Rig, to be used for both when Air Eng 22 (in Empress State) updated the Maintenance Policy. A form of Direct Exchange (common in the RAF, less so in the RN or at Fleetlands) was offered. I know the rig and the calibrated set were delivered inside 2 days, but not if the MPS was amended. Long time ago. Old age and all that.

[John Eacott]

Somewhere around 1973 or 74 we had a HAS1 flew into the cliffs at night on a casex, hidden in the blind arc and plot slippage was believed to have been a factor: 824NAS. Somewhere west of Predannack, IIRC: the cliff was 210 feet AMSL, they were in the jump at 200ft RadAlt. I had to launch with the total holding of black powder extinguishers from Culdrose to drop off to extinguish the MGB on fire: all 25-30 of them.

I'll look up the date tomorrow.

[david parry]

This one John..21/03/1974 XV702 R-054 Sea King HAS1 824 NAS Flew into cliffs at night one mile west of Black Head, Coverack near to The Lizard, Cornwall. All four crew were killed

[cornish-stormrider]

My favourite bit was talking about the baby born en route.....
they didn't show it on the program but IIRC the crew talking about having to get on the comms to base and revise their POB status +1....
BZ all round.

and the two teabags (divers) leaping off the sinking boat - effin eck!

[Thone1]

@FODPlot:

Mid- to late 70s the German Marineflieger were taking delivery of their aircraft, SK Mk 41.
At the same time, British crews would train their German counterparts, operating from Culdrose.
I do recall that even a few big SAR cases were flown during that time, one leading to severe salt ingestion due to gale force winds, resulting in a flame out shortly prior to "jumping" over a cliff.
"Zoom"-climbing shortly prior impacting the cliff was a standard procedure back then. Having an engine fail just before climbing made it all a little bit more interesting.

Anyway, the trainers used aircraft designated for a delivery to Germany back then.
Maybe that explains it?

Tom

[John Eacott]

I do recall that even a few big SAR cases were flown during that time, one leading to severe salt ingestion due to gale force winds, resulting in a flame out shortly prior to "jumping" over a cliff.
"Zoom"-climbing shortly prior impacting the cliff was a standard procedure back then. Having an engine fail just before climbing made it all a little bit more interesting.

Tom,

You can find references to the Merc Enterprise rescue and Dave Mallock flying the Mk41 here on PPRuNe: there was no 'zoom climb' involved so please consign that crew-room fable to the rubbish bin! Dave had engine surges for some time while transiting back to CU from Plymouth overwater, at cruise, and when he was back over the Lizard Peninsular the surging was so bad that he did a night auto into a ploughed field, nearly turning over in the process.

I seem to remember it happened by accident when I was at Lossiemouth back in the 80's. I think we had a Sea King fitted with a light grey blade which was very noticeable from above. Later the yellow blade was introduced as some protection from all the fast jets with small windows and short sighted pilots.

Try fighter evasion tactics development with a Wessex in the late 60s/early 70s!

In the debrief there were three big visual giveaways for the fighter to find the Wessex: one odd coloured blade, the pilot's white helmet and gloves, and the yellow LSJ (OK, that makes four ;) )

That resulted in green helmets, green gloves and green LSJ. And odd coloured blades for SAR, which came about in the 1980s.

[Martin the Martian]

Just caught up with this, and as another Cornish lad the constant mispronounciation of CulDrose did raise a hackle every time. Otherwise an enjoyable hour. Would have liked to have seen more of the SK's history re ASW, ASaC and exports, but can't have it all I suppose. And I well and truly doff my hat to the two divers on the Murree shout.

Speaking of hats, I thought headwear was not permitted to be worn on aircraft handling areas? Mr. Sargeant was very attached to his tweed hat when he was not sporting a bonedome.:confused:

[lsd]

John Eacotts comment about white helmets/gloves reminds me of the 2 and 4 Sqn Hunter FR pilots in Gutersloh telling us they could find our dispersed Wessex by spotting white mushrooms aka helmets. I consulted IAM Farnborough and various Flight Safety agencies without getting any real objections, so went to the MT section and had my helmet painted with bog standard drab green same as our Land Rovers . Apart from my flight commander getting somewhat uptight, it was accepted and by the time I went to 848 on an exchange tour in 1970 I think it was being adopted widely on SH sqns ......... the white gloves didn't seem to present much of a giveaway after setting up in the field and refuelling/re-roleing the less than pristine 'queen of the skies'!¡

[lsd]

Reference above to naked ladies etc should refer to LandRovers ....seem unable to edit it out...technology and advancing years...

[Alloa Akbar]

I enjoyed it, seeing old cabs and old colleagues again :ok:

For the record - However a Helicopter has found a sub and attacked it, causing major damage.....Just wasn't a Sea King and the sub wasn't submerged.

Not true.. 819 squadron at HMS Gannet saw to that. I vaguely recall when I was a baby tiff on field training in 1988 an exercise Stingray accidentally stoofing into the side of a boat, I think it was the Conqueror (Someone correct me if I am wrong) The boat in question limped into Faslane much to amusement of the TV News crews and acute embarrassment of the Roger Nigel.

[Thone1]

@JohnEacott:

Copied.
Can you help with finding this incident here on PPRuNe?

Thanks,

Tom

[MAINJAFAD]

Not true.. 819 squadron at HMS Gannet saw to that. I vaguely recall when I was a baby tiff on field training in 1988 an exercise Stingray accidentally stoofing into the side of a boat, I think it was the Conqueror (Someone correct me if I am wrong) The boat in question limped into Faslane much to amusement of the TV News crews and acute embarrassment of the Roger Nigel.

Interesting story, worth a look up when the 30 years rule runs out on that one. The one I was talking about the weapons involve were a mix of DC's, AS-12 Missiles and a Mk 46, all warshots lobbed at a certain Argie sub in late April 82 by every other Westland product in operational shipborne FAA use at the time. Though somebody did say on one of the Falklands threads on here, that a Mk 46 was launched against a confirmed twin screw sub target during the war and the sub evaded the torpedo. Didn't say what the 46 came off though.

[John Eacott]

@JohnEacott:

Copied.
Can you help with finding this incident here on PPRuNe?

Thanks,

Tom

If you use the Advanced Search for Merc Enterprise and/or David Mallock you'll find posts on a few threads. RN Sea King icing incident (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/436677-rn-sea-king-icing-incident-citation.html) is one, even though it was nothing to do with icing! ;)

[Stratofreighter]

And it's on again:


BBC Two - The Sea King: Britain's Flying Past (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r1z3g)


"Sun 29 Mar 2015
19:00
BBC Two (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo) except Wales


The Sea King: Britain's Flying Past


John Sergeant presents a TV love letter to one of Britain's most iconic aircraft, the Sea King helicopter."