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View Full Version : RIP - OFF BRITAIN; EPISODE 1,679


Capot
22nd Feb 2013, 13:56
Mrs C persuaded me, OK blackmailed me, into doing a 600-mile trip by train, instead of car. It's not quite a round trip.

The car would have taken me 9 hours total with coffee breaks, and burnt 50 litres of diesel (well under a tankful), say £70. And that's it.

Beardie's First Class, for half the trip, bought at Mrs C's instigation so that I could use the WiFi and get some work done, cost an outrageous £121, much cheaper than normal with the wrinkly card and leaving at 0600.. And that was an advance booking! Add £30 for the cab at each end. For your £121.00++ you get 2 cups of coffee and a mouldy muffin. ("Croissants?" "Nah, mate, don't have them.") And Wifi, which works well.

The second half of the trip needs 2 changes/3 trains. "The Trainline" offered me a 1st class seat for just under £170. So I had a look at the cost of a 1st class on each sector; guess what, £36.30 on the first, £18.50 on the second, and not available on the last. The last sector is a 13 minute trip costing £6.00.

So I bought all 3 separately. But the attempt by The Trainline, and/or the Operating Companies, to con people into paying £110 more than they need to pay is not only disgraceful, it seems to me to amount to criminal fraud. It is also going on all day every day, hundreds if not thousands of times a day.

An agent in an Indian call-centre assured me that The Trainline is only doing what the Operating Companies force them to do. Hmmm, I doubt that. If the Operating Companies allow Trainline to sell me 3 tickets for £60.80 if I buy them separately, its computer is capable of working out the cheapest combination and selling me the 3 tickets in a package. In short, doing exactly what i have done on its website. Or at the very least of pointing out that the offered fare is 280% of the true fare.

But, what really gets to me is that someone, in either the Operating Companies or The Trainline or both, has made a conscious decision to attempt to con the public routinely and systematically into paying two or three times what they need to pay.

The extent of this fraud could make the banks look good. In any comparison, mis-selling of PPI is insignificant in terms of the number of people robbed and money stolen in this way by the Train Operating Companies.

For me, it's back to the car. I've had enough of the British train system, its excessive prices, dreadful management and rotten equipment and service to last me a lifetime. Which is a pity, because I love trains and use them in Europe a great deal. Maybe the Government should kick Beardie, that Scottish outfit that has destroyed rail travel to the West Country at least, and all the other incompetent franchisees into touch and bring in DB and Thales as a joint venture management contractor. I bet they would need less subsidy than the present lot are throwing down the drain.

Lancelot37
22nd Feb 2013, 14:40
Last time I travelled by train was in 1982 and doubt if I'll ever travel that way again. Car or by air for me.

Evanelpus
22nd Feb 2013, 15:29
OP, welcome to the world of those who use the railways infrequently. The more savvy amongst us know where to go and what to order to get the best deals but you would have thought the TOC's would have tried to encourage those amongst us that only use the train every now and then, not rip them off to the extent that they'll never consider rail journies again in the future.

But your thread title of Rip Off Britain is so accurate and sadly, the bean counters at most TOC's need to cut away the eyelids from their rectum to clear up the $hitty outlook they have for their long suffering passengers.

Rant over.

charliegolf
22nd Feb 2013, 15:44
I go to london from Wales a few times a year. Advance first class return- £64. I think that's a really good deal. Wouldn't want 3 changes though!

16p a mile ish, 3 hours. £8 parking at the station, £8 tube/day.

£88 ish.

Car: 30p x 400 miles (to realistically allow for all the costs) £120. Four hours minimum. Parking- where and how much? Still need the tube too.

CG

Tableview
22nd Feb 2013, 15:44
Interesting. I travel by train quite a lot in the UK and when it's an expensive journey I use the National Rail journey planner, RailEasy, and the TOCs' own sites to compare prices. The results are usually identical.

I have tried split ticketing (which is legal as long as the train you take actually stops at the points where each ticket begins and ends) and more distant point ticketing (which is not technically legal) and have rarely been able to beat the combinations offered by the system. That might simply mean I'm not making the right choices, but I usually consider that if the full walk up fare is, say £250, and I can get a F return for £60, then I'm happy with that.

What I am unhappy with though is the quality of the rolling stock and the condition of the tracks, resulting in a very poor ride, worse and slower than you would get in most European countries, even Spain which has vastly improved its network (with EU money). Also the trains are often quite scruffy, and station facilities are appalling, specially when you have to wait for a connection in freezing rain and then run over bridges and underpasses.

Sallyann1234
22nd Feb 2013, 16:14
I've just had this idea.
We could combine the train operating companies, the rolling stock providers, the track operation and the stations into one big company. There would a uniform fares structure, and no arguments over responsibility when trains are delayed or accidents occur.
If it was a truly national company we could give it an inspiring name like 'British Rail'.
I can't understand why no-one has thought of this already.

fireflybob
22nd Feb 2013, 17:18
I think a lot depends on what part of the network and which Company you travel with.

I travel to London from Nottingham about once a month. I have no complaints at all - the rolling stock is modern, the trains are clean and on time and the fares very reasonable and it's certainly a lot more relaxing than train travel.

Am off for a day in London tomorrow and have bought the away day deal - First Class each way with full breakfast on the outbound, 24 hours parking at the station, travel card for zones 1-6 in London - all for £47.50 (ok thats with my Senior RailCard) but I think that's a good deal!

racedo
22nd Feb 2013, 17:21
Sallyann

Great idea but don't think it would STRIKE WORKERS as a good idea.

Capot
22nd Feb 2013, 17:29
Tableview

I reckoned I'd ranted enough without mentioning the state of the track (Leeds - Exeter anyway) this morning.

It is so bad that it must be, surely, at least slightly dangerous. The coach rattled, rocked, swayed and bounced whenever the speed was over about 50 mph. Using a laptop keyboard was quite difficult at times.

What the hell do they do with the billions they get in subsidy? The rolling stock is 30-40 years old, on First Great Western at least, ie what they got for peanuts from M Thatcher with a couple of repaint jobs, and Beardie's is second-hand French commuter equipment mis-used on long-distance but nice and cheap, as I understand it. The track is dreadful, and only the routes to the North from London, and around the South-East have been electrified.

Someone, somewhere, is extracting enormous sums of money from the whole corrupt set-up. But who? Billions of £££ of taxpayers' funds are poured into it without trace. It's not being spent on the railway, that's obvious.

Dear God, I've got another 5 hours of it tomorrow, after 5 hours this morning.

PS Why in the name of whichever Almighty is top of the heap in Leeds, does the management of Leeds Station allow the "essential" concessionaires to open when they feel like it and not when they are needed? On any well-run airport they would be kicked out pronto for ruining the product. Plenty of passengers, lots of trains at 0530, a couple of coffee stalls open and that's it. No f in newspapers/magazines seller.

hellsbrink
22nd Feb 2013, 17:40
Ah, but the track isn't the responsibility of the train companies, so they can't do diddly about it. That's the responsibility of Network Rail, a "company" that is so well organised I believe they actually have to "hire" train drivers from DB Schenker, a private company that used to be the EWS freight company.

Go figure.

west lakes
22nd Feb 2013, 17:47
On the subject of fares, National Rail Enquiries is good for deals. Interestingly if you use SRB's Virgin site it flags up the cheapest fares with a bit of digging, especially where 2 singles is cheaper than a return!

Krystal n chips
22nd Feb 2013, 17:48
Capot,

In part, you are correct re the "rip off" sentiment and I totally agree with you, in particular the walk on fares.

However, you also made a couple of basic errors...not a criticism by the way.;)

I use the trains on a regular basis, or rather whenever possible and it's feasible to do so, always for leisure nowadays and for long distance trips....avoids the potential to meet "Big Dazza, slammin gears, on the mobile" and Tamsin and Tarquin in the BMW conducting their ever so essential business at the same time as driving....I digress.

Avoid any of the ticket providers such as trainline etc.

Book via the TOC's directly.

Lean to navigate the National Rail website...it has a strange affinity for beared rail, so the key is to plan ahead and look for alternative routes to those offered...eg Stafford to Aberdeen...routes me via Edinburgh and costs £xxx...go via Crewe, Glasgow ( bearded rail ) and then Scotrail...saves "£xx"..I got a nice first single on East Coast from Aberdeen to Kings Cross for £42 for example, with a table and a view, thankfully both came with a single seat.

The key, is to play the TOC's at their own game, if you can plan ahead, and to make some small personal sacrifices in times, to achieve the best deal you can.

TBirdFrank
22nd Feb 2013, 18:14
Unified industry - final account to taxpayer for running the British railway system April 1994 - £1.1Bn

MDTR - (Modern, Dynamic, Thrusting, Railway) has been as high as £6.1Bn which leaks straight through the system and into the pockets of Branson, Lockhead and Souter, not to mention Shagger Norris - who as a director of Jervis (and not speaking as a tory M P who created the farce) tried to blame Potters Bar on "sabotage" Well he was half right - except it was by the company of which he was said director!

Now we have Dave and Gideon ignoring the worldwide crisis caused by the banks and trying to blame it on the Lying Scotsman and Bliar, when in reality, they are all on the make at our expense.

Great 'ere innit?

Capot
22nd Feb 2013, 18:18
K & C

Thank you for all that; if I ever get harried again into using a train in UK I'll take up all your suggestions.

The quoted walk-on full 1st Class fare Leeds - Exeter, for which I paid £121 which seemed outrageous enough, is actually, get this, £303!. What really would stun me would be to hear that some-one actually paid that much for the journey.

Tableview
22nd Feb 2013, 18:24
Another tip : Most of the websites (third party or TOC) have an option such as 'search for cheapest fares of the day' or 'search for slower/overtaken trains'. This will often throw up cheaper options and in some cases the extra journey time is only a few minutes.

The sites are programmed, as are GDSs for airlines, to show only the services with fastest elapsed times, which are then ordered according to various algorythms. The point is that slower services get pushed off the screen.

A couple of months ago, I used this option for a ticket from Chester to Lewes, and by waiting a few minutes longer for a connection at Crewe, saved £40.

thing
22nd Feb 2013, 19:27
The quoted walk-on full 1st Class fare Leeds - Exeter, for which I paid £121 which seemed outrageous enough, is actually, get this, £303!.

Surely cheaper to get a taxi?

G-CPTN
22nd Feb 2013, 19:36
Surely cheaper to get a taxi?
What about the WiFi?

thing
22nd Feb 2013, 19:36
Surely cheaper to get a taxi and a dongle?

Sunnyjohn
22nd Feb 2013, 20:25
The car would have taken me 9 hours total with coffee breaks, and burnt 50 litres of diesel (well under a tankful), say £70. And that's it.
With respect, you have made the classic error of the majority of car owners who wish to rubbish public transport by having failed to factor in the percentage costs of maintenance, depreciation, tax, licence and insurance. If you bother to search the internet sites for cheap deals as soon as they appear (and, yes, you do have to be persistent and patient) you will find, for example, that, as my wife has just done, you can buy a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Penrith for £13.80 return. Assuming there are four of you, that is, a car load, it would cost £54. I would guess that petrol for that journey would be somewhat less, but you still have to factor in the above costs that I mentioned above. I appreciate that car drivers do have this axe to grind about the cost of public transport but at the very least you should quote correct figures and get it in perspective. Oh, and do some research.

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 04:04
With respect, you have made the classic error of the majority of car owners who wish to rubbish public transport by having failed to factor in the percentage costs of maintenance, depreciation, tax, licence and insurance.

And, as pointed out by A.N. Other earlier, these are "fixed" costs that are already being paid anyway so are immaterial in the costs of car vs train. You still have to pay your yearly maintainence, you still have to insure the vehicle, you still have to pay your road tax, you have already spent the money on lessons and costs of your licence and the wagon will depreciate as much sitting at home during the occasional train journey. Your argument is nonsense.

And since it's not always possible for people to plan things so they can get the cheapest fares "as soon as they appear", that argument is null and void as well.

mike-wsm
23rd Feb 2013, 04:22
The comparison between private car and public transport becomes easier if you organise your life so you can do without a car altogether. Suddenly all those 'fixed costs' vanish and you cease to need money.

To those of you bursting out with "Oh but..." let me say "Rubbish". Car dependency is no different from alcohol dependency, or nicotine dependency, or drug dependency. You can do without, it just needs careful thought.

Dunnit. For two decades now. And life is so much better.

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 04:27
Tell me how well that works if you have to lug 150kg of equipment around to do your work, Mike.

I guess you never thought that one through, did ya......

Krystal n chips
23rd Feb 2013, 04:31
" And since it's not always possible for people to plan things so they can get the cheapest fares "as soon as they appear", that argument is null and void as well.

The "argument" as you put it is not null and void....other than turning up on the day, which, as we know, is a "rip off".

You do get the best deal(s) if you can plan ahead and buy tickets as soon as they become available. Thereafter, there is an incremental rise in prices over a 12 week period. Having said that, much depends on your route / times of travel as it is still possible to get a deal up to the day of travel.

One of the problems is that people do not, as a rule, take the time to do some research, think about any potential variations to the route / times and destination and simply take what is offered at face value. The TOC's are perfectly well aware of human weakness in this respect and the "want it now" mentality that prevails for many in society today.


Another, is that National Rail's website, whilst not quite as partisan as it was, does not make site navigation an easy excercise......no surprise there.

Of course, some of us are motivated by a detestation of the privatisation of B.R in the first place which adds a certain frisson to the research...;) :E

mike-wsm
23rd Feb 2013, 04:36
Hb - read the fourth and fifth words of my post. :p

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 04:37
So you confirm what I said, K&C, as your own admission is that prices can increase from "release day" onwards. So it is not always possible to plan things to get the cheapest tickets "as soon as they appear", as Sunnyjohn claimed, therefore his argument is actually null and void as you have just confirmed. Thank you and have a nice day.

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 04:38
Mike, if I use my own vehicle for work purposes it is still a "private car" as it is owned by myself and not by the company.

NEXT

Krystal n chips
23rd Feb 2013, 05:06
" it is not always possible to plan things to get the cheapest tickets "as soon as they appear", as Sunnyjohn claimed, therefore his argument is actually null and void as you have just confirmed. Thank you and have a nice day."

:ugh::ugh: Let me put this in very simple terms Hells....if you book in advance, you will invariably get a cheaper ticket. Book when the tickets appear, and you get a very good deal.

Sunnyjohn made a perfectly valid comment. :ok:

And the reason I say this, is based, quelle surprise, on personal experience. Let me give you a further example.

On March 13th, I will be booking a single from Amsterdam to Berlin. On March 16th, I will book a single from Berlin to Amsterdam....now, why do you think I am booking two seperate journeys, on two seperate dates?

Please remember, that, whilst we are talking about "Rip off" UK and the TOC's originally, the booking criteria now being discussed is applicable on mainland Europe as much as it is in the UK.

sitigeltfel
23rd Feb 2013, 05:13
I am told that anyone who buys a return ticket Dundee-Glasgow is cheaper buying two separate ones, Dundee-Perth and Perth-Glasgow. Why this is, only Scotrail can explain.

Setting aside the question. Once escaping Dundee, why would anyone want to return? :p

alisoncc
23rd Feb 2013, 05:23
Started going downhill when they amalgamated LMS, LNER, etc. Now those guys could run railways.

fireflybob
23rd Feb 2013, 08:19
Given the nature of this forum am surprised nobody has mentioned safety! Would suggest train travel is far safer than car travel?

I don't mind paying a few extra quid for a much higher level of safety - something many espouse on this forum wrt air travel - pot calling kettle black?

Sunnyjohn
23rd Feb 2013, 08:31
Your argument is nonsense.
My argument is not nonsense because I do not own car and therefore I do not have to pay any of those costs. You do. If an owner of a car chooses to let their vehicle sit in the road and rust, fine, but the costs are still there. I'm delighted to say I don't have any and, for me, a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Penrith is a very good deal. It's also a lot safer because the number of people who get killed in train crashes is, you may have noticed, considerably less than the number who get killed on the road. And, regrettably, most people killed on the road are killed by other peoples' carelessness and not theirs.

LGW Vulture
23rd Feb 2013, 08:42
I'm afraid I can beat you all on this. Some three weeks ago I was back over in the UK for work and stopped an extra day to take in a football game with my lad up in Leicester, a Thursday evening.

We left Brighton at four and hadn't booked in advance. The price for me and the lad - and he had his Young Persons railcard - ??? £330.00!!!!! :ugh:

The best is yet to come......

Upon changing in St Pancras we found all seats reserved in Standard Class and there was no way I was going to stand after paying that. So, upon telling the inspector I was not prepared to pay anything more to sit in First Class given the costs already, he promptly took our tickets and said we would be met at Leicester station by the Transport Police. So, after paying another £30 each to upgrade......the total cost ended up at £390.00 for a day return. And, guess what, my team lost. :{:{:{

Tableview
23rd Feb 2013, 08:46
Whilst looking at the argument of whether or not standing costs should be factored, it is also worth considering some of the benefits of using the train, and it is hard to quantify a value to them.

It is safer and generally more relaxing than driving. There has to be a value to that.

You are more likely to be able to pre-determine your arrival time by train than by car.

The time on the train can be spent reading, working, eating, dozing, Ppruning, chatting, enjoying a drink or two, or watching the countryside passing. It isn't possible to do any of those safely, if at all, whilst driving.

stuckgear
23rd Feb 2013, 08:54
The quoted walk-on full 1st Class fare Leeds - Exeter, for which I paid £121 which seemed outrageous enough, is actually, get this, £303!. What really would stun me would be to hear that some-one actually paid that much for the journey.

I'd pay that much to get out of Leeds.

Flap 5
23rd Feb 2013, 10:35
So it is worth going by train instead of by car if you don't own a car?

That would assume you live close to a rail station, or a regular bus service to access the station. That's fine for city and / or town dwellers. Not fine for everyone else in the country. It's often an argument put forward by well off people who can afford to live in big cities and who are often those spouting forth on the BBC. These people have, in any case, paid a lot more for their houses to live where they do. They have already paid more to have easy access to the train. So the train versus car argument totally depends on where you live.

Furthermore most people who live close to a station and / or have access to a regular bus service have a car anyway because trains never go exactly to where you want to go anyway. So they will always be leaving a car in their driveway when they catch a train and, as has been said, the fixed costs on the car have already been paid.

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 11:36
Let me put this in very simple terms Hells....if you book in advance, you will invariably get a cheaper ticket. Book when the tickets appear, and you get a very good deal.

Let me put it in simpler terms for you.

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to plan things like that, so my comment that it is NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE stands true.

Sunnyjohn
My argument is not nonsense because I do not own car and therefore I do not have to pay any of those costs. You do. If an owner of a car chooses to let their vehicle sit in the road and rust, fine, but the costs are still there. I'm delighted to say I don't have any and, for me, a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Penrith is a very good deal. It's also a lot safer because the number of people who get killed in train crashes is, you may have noticed, considerably less than the number who get killed on the road. And, regrettably, most people killed on the road are killed by other peoples' carelessness and not theirs.

Your argument is nonsense as you were claiming that those with cars would not have the same costs IF they took the train instead. Just because you do not have a car does not mean everyone is the same, or can actually manage without one as not everyone lives in an area with decent public transport to get them to their nearest train station, and not everyone is able to carry out their own "normal duties" without a vehicle either. Therefore, my comment stands as you are expecting EVERYONE to be in the same situation as yourself, which is simply not true.

A car might be a luxury to you, but tell the person who lives in the middle of nowhere or in an area with poor public transport that it is not something that is essential and a necessity.

AdamFrisch
23rd Feb 2013, 12:06
Don't get me started.

When I lived in Hastings and needed to be for work in London it tried to be environmentally friendly and not have to deal with the hassle of cars, congestion etc. But Southeastern Railways, the shi**iest company with the shi**iest trains ever charged £45 for a return at peak to London Charing Cross. Who can afford that on a daily basis? We're talking a distance of of 50 miles here - it's almost a quid/mile!

I ended up buying a new little Toyota IQ and spending about £5 in fuel driving up instead. Even with congestion charging, it was a lot cheaper. Wasn't mass transport going to save us money and be cheaper than the car?

Just last year I went in to Euston station in London to get a train up to Manchester. It was for work and I'd just flown in from America, so I thought I'd treat myself to first class and just sleep and have a nice quiet trip without yobs singing football hymns or teenage moms talking on mobile phones:

"£220 for one way, sir".
"Are you joking?"
"No, sir"
"How much is a second class one way trip?"
"£84"
"One of those please".

I'm not kidding. £220 to go to Manchester one way? Someone somewhere must be filming me, having a laugh I thought. Cheaper to fly there in a rented Cirrus almost.

stuckgear
23rd Feb 2013, 12:24
I ended up buying a new little Toyota IQ and spending about £5 in fuel driving up instead. Even with congestion charging, it was a lot cheaper. Wasn't mass transport going to save us money and be cheaper than the car?



ahh but what you have to remember Adam is that car ownership is the paragon of capitalism, we'd all be better off shoved on the train..

the end result is, if you can plan your travel in advance you may be able to afford the train, otherwise capitalist transport is the only manner of actually getting anywhere.

of course public transport and government are competing to see who can price people, who have to travel further than the local area, into oblivion first.

just a pity for those who have to commute to work anywhere further than the local salt mine.

mike-wsm
23rd Feb 2013, 12:51
Hb - if you live in the middle of nowhere that is your own mismanagement of your life.

You don't need a car. Once you have drummed that into your brain the rest follows. If you are toting 150kg of junk around for your employer, more fool you. He should provide that stuff wherever it is needed or else provide you with a nicely lettered white van saying Joe Bloggs, plumber.

You do not need to run a private car.

radeng
23rd Feb 2013, 13:03
Which is fine if you want to live in a heavily built up and frequently crime ridden area. There are places - outskirts of Basingstoke, for example, where there are about 2 buses to it after 7pm. Not 'country'. Real rural places - forget it.

stuckgear
23rd Feb 2013, 13:07
Hb - if you live in the middle of nowhere that is your own mismanagement of your life.




or it could be that your own mismanagement of your life has resulted in the fact that you need to be dependent on others to get anywhere further than shanks' pony will take you.

wings folded
23rd Feb 2013, 13:27
Quote:
Hb - if you live in the middle of nowhere that is your own mismanagement of your life.


or it could be that your own mismanagement of your life has resulted in the fact that you need to be dependent on others to get anywhere further than shanks' pony will take you.


If you need to catch a train, buy a house near the railway station.

If you need to buy food, buy a house near shops.

If you need to relax with a visit to the cinema, buy a house next to the cinema.

If you need to buy the kind of goods (electrical, furniture, DIY etc only found in Industrial Estates, buy a house in an Industrial Estate (except there usually are none).

So, that's four houses we need, and I probably have missed quite a few.

Furthermore, for many, shank's pony feasability distance can be measured in yards. What do they do?

stuckgear
23rd Feb 2013, 13:38
If you need to catch a train, buy a house near the railway station.

If you need to buy food, buy a house near shops.

If you need to relax with a visit to the cinema, buy a house next to the cinema.

If you need to buy the kind of goods (electrical, furniture, DIY etc only found in Industrial Estates, buy a house in an Industrial Estate (except there usually are none).

So, that's four houses we need, and I probably have missed quite a few.

Furthermore, for many, shank's pony feasability distance can be measured in yards. What do they do?

buy a house next to work,

buy a house next to spouse's work

buy a house next to each child's school..

oh hang on how do we get between houses..

RedhillPhil
23rd Feb 2013, 15:52
Sallyann

Great idea but don't think it would STRIKE WORKERS as a good idea.

When was the last national or local rail strike under B.R. - anybody know?

Sunnyjohn
23rd Feb 2013, 16:26
It is quite true that living in remote areas without public transport you often do need a car. I worked as Special Needs Coordinator at Cornwall College and part of my brief required me to visit other colleges and schools in Cornwall. I always managed to do so by public transport. Later, I became South West Regional Moderator for City and Guilds and was required to travel all over the South West, which I also did successfully by public transport. However, I have to come clean on two counts. The first was that someone else was paying my fares. The second was that I had (and still have) a Brompton folding bike. I never had a problem and was (almost) always on time. I suppose I also ought to say that I have cycled most of my life, often quite considerable distances, so you sort of get used to it. The bonus is that I can still cycle long distances.

RedhillPhil
23rd Feb 2013, 16:37
And, as pointed out by A.N. Other earlier, these are "fixed" costs that are already being paid anyway so are immaterial in the costs of car vs train. You still have to pay your yearly maintainence, you still have to insure the vehicle, you still have to pay your road tax, you have already spent the money on lessons and costs of your licence and the wagon will depreciate as much sitting at home during the occasional train journey. Your argument is nonsense.

And since it's not always possible for people to plan things so they can get the cheapest fares "as soon as they appear", that argument is null and void as well.

It's often possible to get an advanced fare as late as 18.00 the day before. My youngest has booked a Redhill - Penzance advanced fare for £86 at 17.00 the day before travel in lieu of the £137.50 walk on fare. He has, given ten days notice had a return to PZ for £35.00 before now. As a non car driving non car owner (his choice) he tends to get a bit savvy on fares.

RedhillPhil
23rd Feb 2013, 16:45
So it is worth going by train instead of by car if you don't own a car?

That would assume you live close to a rail station, or a regular bus service to access the station. That's fine for city and / or town dwellers. Not fine for everyone else in the country. It's often an argument put forward by well off people who can afford to live in big cities and who are often those spouting forth on the BBC. These people have, in any case, paid a lot more for their houses to live where they do. They have already paid more to have easy access to the train. So the train versus car argument totally depends on where you live.

Furthermore most people who live close to a station and / or have access to a regular bus service have a car anyway because trains never go exactly to where you want to go anyway. So they will always be leaving a car in their driveway when they catch a train and, as has been said, the fixed costs on the car have already been paid.

Road Fund Licence, Insurance, fuel, depreciation, wear and tear. Car users always forget these things.

RedhillPhil
23rd Feb 2013, 16:52
Cars. This is how car dependant we are conditioned to become.
From the begining of term in September Surrey County Council are not allowing pupils to walk to North Downs primary schools at Betchworth and Leigh. Any pupils not being able to be driven will be collected and delivered by taxi - naturally paid for by the ratepayers. Nor will they be allowed to cycle.
Obesity epedemic, what obesity epedemic?

mike-wsm
23rd Feb 2013, 16:52
stuckgear - I use shankses pony every day, never get taken anywhere by anybody. Plenty of shops and restaurants within ten minutes walk. Lots of beach for exercise, meeting dogs, and kite flying. Church five minutes walk. Library ten minutes walk. Out of town shopping centre twenty minutes walk.

Like I said, you need to think and get organised. :ok:

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 16:53
So, mike, if you are classed as self-employed you MUST have a wagon from the person who gives you the work? Or your boss MUST have tools, material, etc, at every potential site?

Or you are somehow a failure for living outside of city centres?

Are you really so arrogant and ignorant to believe that everyone lives the same way as you do?

stuckgear
23rd Feb 2013, 16:56
i think RHP that it was this post that was being referred to: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/508412-broken-uk-benefits-system-2.html#post7705283

now, i own a car not out of some capitalist 'statement' or ideology, but because it is a necessity to move from point to point.

so, if i elect to train somewhere, the car is still on the driveway depreciating, with tax and insurance paid up front, if i use the train i dont get a remimburesement on unused tax, depreciation or insurance it still needs servicing at regular intervals no matter the milage undertaken in that period.

the cost of taking the train somewhere is *in addition* to the fixed costs of car ownership.


i gave an example of a trip i looked at from surrey to chester:

if i go by train, the car is still in driveway, depreciating, the road tax still has to be paid for, as does the insurance, and it will still need maintenance every year, oil change, service etc etc.

i dont get that discounted or paid back if i use public transport.. so the 222.00 cost of going from surrey to chester and back is a hard cost out of my pocket along with the other associated costs of owning and running a vehicle.

to go by road, the cost of fuel mybe 30 quid each way, is the hard cost out of my pocket as at the start of year i had to pay for road tax and insurance up front, and despite the fact that if the car was not used for that journey, i'd still need to have the 12 month service done anyway.

if you want to take the cost of tyre rubber.. lets say the tyres at 250.00 RRP each.. ( I pay 500 for a full set of the same - 'grey imports', same tyre just purchased from elsewhere in the EU) so that's 1,000 of tyre rubber, which last about 30,000 miles.. so thats about 0.03p per mile makes it 6.66 per 200 miles of use. so 13.00 in tyre rubber at RRP or 6.00 as the hard cost..

so, the cost equivalent is 222.00 by rail and a total of 4 hours and change travel time..

or by car..

60.00 in fuel
6.00 in tyre rubber.

amortisation, road tax and insurance unchanged. a total of 3 hours and change.

driving is still cheaper and quicker

now if i add on the cost of going by train to the fixed costs on car ownership which are *not* recoverable, then using the train becomes even more expensive.

mike-wsm
23rd Feb 2013, 17:00
wings folded - false logic, none of that is true, just organise your life so that you don't have those needs.

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 17:04
It's often possible to get an advanced fare as late as 18.00 the day before. My youngest has booked a Redhill -Penzance advanced fare for £86 at 17.00 the day before travel in lieu of the £137.50 walk on fare. He has, given ten days notice had a return to PZ for £35.00 before now. As a non car driving non car owner (his choice) he tends to get a bit savvy on fares.

Spot the obvious bits that still confirm what I said.

Here are two clues
"Possible" - Means "not DEFINITE", so that is "not always possible"

"10 days notice" - Something that not everyone has the luxury of having.

Perfect example. When I was working in London, my Grandmother died. Do you think she was considerate enough to give me 10 days notice of her impending and totally unexpected heart attack? No. That means drive or pay walk on fares plus buses, etc. Do the maths.

mike-wsm
23rd Feb 2013, 17:05
Hb - not arrogant, not ignorant, just intelligent enough to get my life sorted.

Wilkins Micawber said it all:
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

G-CPTN
23rd Feb 2013, 17:08
As a very rough rule of thumb I reckon that a car will cost you around £2000 per year (excluding fuel).

Of course an expensive new car will exceed this and a reliable old banger will be less if you are lucky.

stuckgear
23rd Feb 2013, 17:10
stuckgear - I use shankses pony every day, never get taken anywhere by anybody. Plenty of shops and restaurants within ten minutes walk. Lots of beach for exercise, meeting dogs, and kite flying. Church five minutes walk. Library ten minutes walk. Out of town shopping centre twenty minutes walk.

Like I said, you need to think and get organised. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


i had a short notice meeting yesterday, short notice in that i didn't have two weeks notice to start shopping around for rail fares, which would have been largely useless anyway as the airport was some 20 miles from the nearest stattion.

the distance by road, was 83 miles e/w.

to go by train, to the nearest station possible would have taken, i've just looked it up 3hrs 30 mins e/w can't comment on price as it's a saturday so off peak. as opposed to being during peak time. but i use today's off peak pricing, were looking at 55.00 total. plus the cost of a taxi e/w whlich lo and behold is a car.... even if it's someone elses car i'm still requiring a car to undertake the journey.

driving time, 1hr 50 mins fuel used total 35.00 (in a range rover)

so in essence i couldn't actually use the train anyway because it doesn't go anywhere near me meeting location and would have taken 3.5 hrs to get to the nearest station over double the price of the hard driving cost and i'd still need to use a car.

unfortunately telling the people i was meeting that i wouldnt be going to meet as they should 'organise themselves better' probably would have gone down like a pork chop at a bar mitzvah.

and besides they are where they are located, beacuse of the nature of their business demands that they need to be where they are located.

so frankly mike, with all due respect, you're talking bolleaux.

stuckgear
23rd Feb 2013, 17:13
Wilkins Micawber said it all:
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

and no job beacuse you refuse to travel anywhere unless you have two weeks notice to organise your life means Annual Income - Zero.

well organised. !

hellsbrink
23rd Feb 2013, 17:19
Really Mike? Where do you work?

My work is a 20 minute drive away in an area with zero public transport and no housing within 7km. So how do I get there, or do I quit my job and go on dole because it's not within walking distance with a toolkit?

So, again, are you so ignorant and arrogant you think everyone lives like you or can live like you?

wings folded
23rd Feb 2013, 19:46
wings folded - false logic, none of that is true, just organise your life so that you don't have those needs.


So,

Don't go anywhere, not even to visit children

Don't eat

Don't be entertainted /enlightened.

Don't buy means to refrigerate and then cook my food.


I am not sure many folk could organise their life along those lines.

If you can, and do so, you are either exceptional or talking bullshit.

Flap 5
23rd Feb 2013, 19:51
Plenty of shops and restaurants within ten minutes walk. Lots of beach for exercise, meeting dogs, and kite flying. Church five minutes walk. Library ten minutes walk. Out of town shopping centre twenty minutes walk.



Wow Mike! Aren't you a lucky chap to be able to live so close to such facilities? Clearly the rest of us are dozy not to have such good fortune! :rolleyes:

radeng
23rd Feb 2013, 19:59
I tried, today, to book two First Class tickets Kemble to London on April 19. Return on April 29. Website crashed.....................three times.

I ask myself 'Is this a deliberate ploy to delay me so I have to pay more??

I am well able to believe that this so because I do not believe that the TOCs have any vestige of honesty.

A good public flogging, hanging and drawing of the executives would be a good thing...especially the bearded one, even though he doesn't run FGW.

'Pour encourager les autres'......

mike-wsm
23rd Feb 2013, 20:32
It's philosophy I guess, you have to look for what is really worth having in your life, and reject illusions.

Somebody mentioned a fridge. Totally unnecessary, if you pass shops every day you can buy what you want when you want, always fresh.

If you are enjoying your life you won't have any time at all to watch television, so that's another cash saving.

Books, yes. Music, yes. Plenty of exercise. Walking is good, five miles a day. The sport of your choice, as appropriate to your age. I used to sail to the shops in Bristol, in a 1946 wooden dinghy. Now I fly a kite instead, plenty of upper body exercise, and still using the wind.

TWT
23rd Feb 2013, 22:38
if you pass shops every day you can buy what you want when you want, always fresh.I pass food shops every day.But they're not always open.

RedhillPhil
23rd Feb 2013, 23:15
Spot the obvious bits that still confirm what I said.

Here are two clues
"Possible" - Means "not DEFINITE", so that is "not always possible"

"10 days notice" - Something that not everyone has the luxury of having.

Perfect example. When I was working in London, my Grandmother died. Do you think she was considerate enough to give me 10 days notice of her impending and totally unexpected heart attack? No. That means drive or pay walk on fares plus buses, etc. Do the maths.

OK I'll re-phrase it for you. It is possible in just about every case to book an advance fare up to 18.00 - and sometimes later - you can easily check via the train companie's own website. No, not everyone has the luxury of a ten day window but giving my son as an example how many people would decide to travel to Penzance at the last minute from Redhill. Most people tend to know their travel plans in advance and can work the fares around them. I might add that the newly privatised railway learnt all of these fare scales from the airlines who have been practising the cheap fair prices for years and don't forget that at least a railway station tends to be in the place it's named after - London Luton? After all, few people ever just turn up at an airport and ask for a ticket on the next available, most have done some website scanning first.
Here's an (admittedly minor price but multiply it by thousands of passengers) scam that B.A. pulled on me and anyone else that tries it. I can look up the train times, buy a ticket via my debit card and then print the ticket at home for nothing but the price of the sheet of A4 if I travel on Eurostar. (Three day book ahead fare £64 return, walk-on fare £330). When my far far better half and I went to Venice by B.A. a couple of years ago I tried the same booking on line and was going to be charged a fiver per ticket for using a card. So, I went in person to the B.A. desk at Gatwick, handed the clerk a pice of paper with the flight numbers, times and dates written upon it. She did the necessry and then wanted an extra £10.
"What's that for".
"A service charge".
"What service? I've provided you with the information, all you had to do was to ensure that there were seats available and print the tickets".
"Yes, that's the service".
If that's not a scam what is?
When did you last get charged by a railway ticket clerk to print your rail tickets?
Cars are available 24 hours a day, convenient in a door-to-door kind of way but it's not possible to do any paperwork, have a snooze, use the toilet, get a drink and a snack, take alchohol, properly legally make a telephone call, enjoy the view out of the window........

hellsbrink
24th Feb 2013, 06:24
And, Phil, not everyone has the luxury of even knowing that at 1800 the night before that they will be needing to use a train either! Ya think my Grandmother was courteous enough to give me that much notice or do you think I got a phone call at 0400 (cost for a trip like that one TODAY is in excess of £130 one way and returning next Saturday would be £270 in cattle class according to Trainline. That doesn't include getting from Dundee to Forfar, or getting around for a week. Gonna say I could do it cheaper than by car?)?

You talk about being able to work, have a beer, make some calls, etc. Well, let's see. You can stop at various places when driving to have a dump or something to eat, so that argument goes out. You can make or receive phone calls legally when driving, and having a beer is hardly something you would be doing on a trip to a business meeting as turning up stinking of beer is hardly something that creates a good impression. You can get there faster, meaning you can do your paperwork on arrival.

So unless you are telling me that being able to have a snooze and look out the window justifies ALL the extra costs of train travel, as travel to a meeting in a strange town/city will involve a taxi to/from from the station since it is unlikely your destination will be within walking distance and the likelihood of you knowing how the local public transport works will be small, I reckon you got to look for other arguments.

Don't get me wrong, if myself and the PYT decide to have a day out to the coast or wherever we will take the train as we're in no hurry to get there or do anything specific. But that cannot and does not apply to every single journey made by myself, it only applies in certain circumstances. That is why anyone claiming that the train is ALWAYS the best option is wrong.


Oh, everyone knows the scams from the airlines, something that will be coming to a train company near you soon as they know they will get away with it, and that has nothing to do with how the car can be cheaper and far more convenient in every way than the train.

mike-wsm
24th Feb 2013, 07:17
But personal cars are sooo last-century. Real men don't use them. They're for fat mums to ferry their fat kids to and from school.

And when the oil wells run dry there will be no fuel for the things anyway. What'll all you gas guzzlers do then?

hellsbrink
24th Feb 2013, 07:25
That the oil wells that have been "running dry" for over 50 years despite more and more being extracted every year?

There's a lot more oil out there than people think, and that's before we start on LPG.

And personal transport is stil a necessity for some, no matter how your own life is set up. And I see you still didn't answer the question about where you work and how you get there, same as you will not be able to tell me how I would get to work if I worked nights or even at the Antwerp Harbour (which is VERY poorly served by public transport), or how anyone in your idyllic little part of the world gets to their night shift work when there's no buses or even to work normally where no public transport exists in the area.


Oh no, I forgot. They haven't organised their lives properly because:-
a) they have to work
b) they work nights
c) they have a job that is not within 10 minutes of where they live
d) they have a job that involves carrying heavy toolkits around.

Or, of course, you could be VERY wrong in what you say because you do not believe others actually have a different lifestyle to yourself, which brings me back to the earlier question again regarding arrogance and ignorance.

Tableview
24th Feb 2013, 07:27
I don't think anyone has claimed that the train is always the 'best' option, or even the most cost effective. 'Best' is anyway a subjective opinion. For me, the train is my preferred option when it is convenient. Some journeys I cannot do by train, and for others I know, realistically, that I'll need a car.

Also, when travelling alone and it's one fare, it's a simple choice. When travelling with the family, one train fare becomes three, and one small suitcase or backpack suddenly becomes that plus a massive heavy suitcase full of stuff that 'she' is never going to use but has to take anyway. Lugging all that one and off trains is just not an option, so we drive.

hellsbrink
24th Feb 2013, 07:36
Best read everything again, TV, because people like mike-wsm have actually claimed that personal transportation is not necessary under any circumstances, and others have tried spurious arguments that claim the train is always a cheaper and better option provided you can book in advance and are not lugging 10's of kilos around with you.

mike-wsm
24th Feb 2013, 08:04
Hb - Yes, yes, yes. You're beginning to get the idea. Now start with the assumption that nobody has a car and redesign the world to fit around that.

For example you don't travel to work, you live nearer to it. Go back and look at the mid-1900s, housing was built around businesses so staff could live close to their work. Personal travel was limited to going on holiday by char-a-banc or train to the seaside during factory fortnight. And we were so much happier. As I am now.

stuckgear
24th Feb 2013, 08:05
But personal cars are sooo last-century. Real men don't use them. They're for fat mums to ferry their fat kids to and from school.

And when the oil wells run dry there will be no fuel for the things anyway. What'll all you gas guzzlers do then?


oh God !

Mike.

sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but that concept is soooo 2009.

People who buy a toyota pious are not lauded as saviours of the planet, they are viewed as yoghurt knitters who's santimony does more damage to the environment than good.

also latest news.. windmills are so sooo 2009, we dont want wind trubines, we want nuclear.

owning a 4x4 is no longer a social crime thats soo 2009 too,

its become recognized as a necessity if one lives outside of any inner city area and that 4x4's actually do serve a valid purpose even when it snows and most of the country grinds to a halt.

and 4x4 owners being the anti-christ is sooo 2009 as well,

4x4 Response UK (http://www.4x4response.info/)
Home (http://www.devonandcornwall4x4response.com/)
4x4 response, Hertfordshire, part of the national group of volunteers (http://www.hertfordshire4x4response.org/)
Wessex 4x4 Response - Home Page (http://www.wessex4x4response.org.uk/home)
South East 4x4 Response (http://www.southeast4x4response.co.uk/index/)

times, they are a changin'

mike-wsm
24th Feb 2013, 08:14
Tee-hee - on the one hand I'm absolutely deadly serious and on the other hand I'm having one heck of a lot of fun winding you guys up. :p

jimtherev
24th Feb 2013, 08:16
Coo, it's getting worse than B****G versus Air**s round here. I'm off before the handbags start flying...

Flap 5
24th Feb 2013, 08:35
...I'm having one heck of a lot of fun winding you guys up. :p

I thought as much. This 'mike' is just a wind up.

Unfortunately for the rest of us the problems we have stated still exist and there is no sign of things improving.

sitigeltfel
24th Feb 2013, 08:39
And when the oil wells run dry there will be no fuel for the things anyway. What'll all you gas guzzlers do then?

Ride horses, before we eat them?

Flying Lawyer
24th Feb 2013, 09:24
mike-wsmNow start with the assumption that nobody has a car and redesign the world to fit around that.

They didn't .......... so they did.



http://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/utilities/action/act_download.cfm?mediaid=45865


http://coldfusion3.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/horse_drawn_cart_02.jpg


http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_edinburgh_transport_trams_1907_last_horse_tram_tollcross.j pg

radeng
24th Feb 2013, 11:03
Can anyone tell me what the equivalent today is of £7-10-0 in 1870's money (£7-50)?

That was the walk on First Class fare from Kings Cross to Edinburgh.

Krystal n chips
24th Feb 2013, 12:40
Well, as we have now moved into the realms of inter-modal transport ( inc. the horse ) here's another rip off.

The M6 Toll.

If you use this route and use an exit prior to completion of the route, you pay a reduced amount...so far, on the surface, so reasonable.

The twist however ( apart from the fact the machines at the toll booths at unmanned exits are automatic....and do not give change..."every little helps" to coin a well known phrase ) is that, should you return by exactly the same route and thus now entry point, you will pay more for covering the same distance as you did going in the opposite direction.

Another one, is the variance in overnight parking charges at Motorway services. Why should they vary so much?....and you would be surpised just how many people you see overnighting in this manner, more than a few being the upper end of the car range owners.

There again, if you really want to get the best rail deal, just say your name is George Osbourne....

G-CPTN
24th Feb 2013, 12:54
Can anyone tell me what the equivalent today is of £7-10-0 in 1870's money (£7-50)?
In 2010, £7 10s 0d from 1870 is worth
£560.00 using the retail price index
£3,790.00 using average earnings
. . . . . . . .

mike-wsm
24th Feb 2013, 13:03
radeng - the multipier 1870-1998 is 45.4, and about 2 since then, giving 90ish, so say around £650

radeng
24th Feb 2013, 13:26
So quite a lot cheaper on today's railway, then. Which tells me a walk up 1st Class single anytime is £208 and off peak is £316!

Looks like they've got that wrong way round!

hellsbrink
24th Feb 2013, 14:07
Another one, is the variance in overnight parking charges at Motorway services. Why should they vary so much?....and you would be surpised just how many people you see overnighting in this manner, more than a few being the upper end of the car range owners.

Gee, I thought that was obvious even to you.

The costs of setting up a services and maintaining it are borne solely by the operator, unless they are one of the 50 sites owned and leased by the Dept for Transport so you pay a hefty sum to the Government. As you can guess, these costs vary from site to site and can only be recouped by passing them on to the customer therefore the prices vary by how low you can keep the costs whilst making a profit (bearing in mind how many people just stop to use toilets and don't purchase anything). So there you have a clear reason why prices vary.

Add in the "We'll charge what we know people will be stupid enough to pay", and you see why people who can pass the expense onto their company will "overnight" there after a day thumping up and down the motorway trying to sell things.

Sunnyjohn
24th Feb 2013, 20:46
Don't go anywhere, not even to visit children
Don't eat
Don't be entertainted /enlightened.
Don't buy means to refrigerate and then cook my food.
What absolute cobblers! We visit our children at least four times a year - in the UK. Since I'm still fit enough to write this post, you can assume that we eat. We certainly do access entertainment. And you can assume that, having read your post, I am indeed enlightened!

herman the crab
25th Feb 2013, 02:10
Mike-wsm

A few years ago I worked at Gatwick - a fairly big airport in the south of England, lived in Brighton - a fairly big town, indeed now a city, some 25 miles or so south of said airport.

My shift (for a fairly large company) often ended at midnight, and sometimes started at 0600. The last train left Gatwick at 0033 hr (0008hrs on a Sunday), if I was late getting off the next train home wasn't until around 0600 am. To get to work for 0600 hrs I would have to leave the night before.

When I moved to the countryside - less than 5 miles from the airport (as the crow flies) to use the train I would have to get to the station about 3 miles away, take a train into London, change and then go back down to Gatwick. No of this was possible of course as the trains didn't run that early or late anyway... Oh and no bus service.

Plenty of nice roads to use though. And of course the more miles I drove the less the 'standing charges' of road fund licence/insurance dropped per mile.

HTC

fireflybob
25th Feb 2013, 08:29
My shift (for a fairly large company) often ended at midnight, and sometimes started at 0600. The last train left Gatwick at 0033 hr (0008hrs on a Sunday), if I was late getting off the next train home wasn't until around 0600 am. To get to work for 0600 hrs I would have to leave the night before.


herman the crab, I know what you mean - I recall flying out of Stansted for two weeks some years ago whilst under training for a new airline job and staying with a relation who lived in Shoreditch. Throughout the two weeks many flights were delayed due to fog in the London area but the Stansted Express stopped operating circa midnight and didnt start again till 0500. In fairness there was alternative bus transport laid on but I cannot understand why an airport which is H24 is served by a train system which isn't. I can appreciate that the loads in the early hours may be low but I would have thought at least an hourly service would be appropriate.

Those who work normal office hours don't seem to appreciate that people who don't have the luxury of working social hours are often faced with no other option but to use the car to get to/from work.

Flap 5
25th Feb 2013, 09:36
Oh dear oh dear .. Moving to the countryside three miles from a station? Your choice.

Oh dear oh dear somone with loads of money to buy or rent a house close to a station. How remiss of the rest of us not to have that kind of money! Or maybe we should all be on housing benefit?

Davaar
25th Feb 2013, 15:07
To those of you bursting out with "Oh but..." let me say "Rubbish". Car dependency is no different from alcohol dependency, or nicotine dependency, or drug dependency. You can do without, it just needs careful thought.



Sure. Or you can just decide to die; or enjoy the sweaty misery of the bus; or never go anywhere, such as "the country" or "the town" or any kind of shop, assuming that you are not currently enjoying the regular bus strike; or live within ten yards of a railway station (Ooops! Not here, though, because the station is so far from civilisation; or physically haul groceries and other goods from the supplier. Car use does not equal car dependency any more than trousers equal tailor dependency. I quite like trousers, though.

cockney steve
25th Feb 2013, 19:42
Herewith costs of my Diesel Escort turbo estate..just about to scrap it and draw £140.
Cost 4-1/2 years ago...£260 ('98,elec.windowstintglass,sunroof,CDsony radio,Thule roofbars......PLUS 8.50 for a clutch-cable plastic anchor.

so-capital loss ~130
lost interest on price @5%...120
battery/tyres/brakes/servicing~200
road tax at~220pa=1000
insurance ~360pa=1620
MOT's 200
20,000 miles @average 50MPG @£5 gal. average 2,000

So, 4 1/2 years of door-to door transport, humping fridge-freezers/washing machines/welders/tractor tyres/tools/bricks/cement/plaster/bouncy-castle with all ancilliary gear,etc.etc.

About 5,100 or 25p/mile...never broken down,but i do have the advantage that i'm ex-motor-trade (hasn't made much difference)

My previous diesel Astra estate was just as cheap/economical to run.
Just bought a 2-litre T4 Volvo estate as a stopgap. Petrol, only ~30 MPG
200BHP turbo flying-machine c/w ful leather/aircon/cruise/alloys/towbar etc. test September, tax out in a few days. clean/straight/tidy 98 "R".....£200:ok: Oh, and good boots all round.

If you want a hugely depreciating asset, by all means buy a status-symbol...My Daughter's Audi was 3 years and 16,000 miles old when she bought it...she's LOST more in depreciation than i PAID for a Rolls Royce Silver Spirit....(250 a year insurance inc. weddings and 4 named drivers!) that cost less than 600 a year all in except fuel @ ~ 14 MPG:eek: BUT, the deferential treatment...the prescence...worth every penny.

G&T ice n slice
25th Feb 2013, 20:48
Just bought a 2-litre T4 Volvo estate as a stopgap. Petrol, only ~30 MPG

oooooo noooo:{

please say it's not so, please tell me you've not wasted your money please please please

I've tried SO hard to explain about ovloVs

It's not like they're crap, because crap has a useful purpose whereas ovloVs have NO useful purpose whatsoever

they eat tyres, they eat clutches they suddenly stop going for no very apparent reason - think the little lights all lighting up at 70 mph on the motorway because the engine has just decided to turn itself off, they eat lightbulbs - i figure that at least one external light will fail in any 7 day period.

and they're hotrrible as estates - the days of getting a fully assembled wardrobe in the back are long gone - the internal wheel arches get in the way.

and then there are the non-removeable headrests

cruddy cruddy cruddy cruddy i hate them i hate them i hate them