How Many Radios?

[Sunfish]

Wondering whether to fit Two VHF radios to the build? More knobs to play with and an audio panel. More things to go wrong as I am well known to a wide audience for talking on the wrong frequency and then wondering why I get no reply.....or many:E

What are your thoughts? I have an idea that I could hook them to the Skyview and get some form of automatic channnel selection. One antenna already purchased for the roof. I could put a bent one underneath the rear fuselage on this aircraft, the factory demonstrator has this.

[morno]

Wouldn't the idea of better situational awareness, plus the redundency of a second radio, be enough to justify it?

We operate in an environment where you need to know what's going on around you with minimal work required to achieve that. I'd go a second radio.

morno

[27/09]

It probably depends on where the majority of your flying is to take place. If you're going to be in controlled airspace a lot and need to work two frequencies, i.e. listen to an ATIS etc, while still keeping a listening watch then two radios would be a very good idea.

Otherwise I'd say one radio would be quite adequate.

There are some radios that have a monitor function allowing you to listen to the standby frequency which is almost like having two radios without the need for an audio panel or another aerial. This might be the best option all round as you can only talk on one radio at a time and covers morno's point about SA without all the extra cost of another box.

[VH-XXX]

For safety and convenience, you either need two radios or the ability to listen to two frequencies simultaneously. The latest Icom and XCOM for example have dual watch capability. Two radios are a little more complex and require some kind of mic switch or audio panel so a little more complex. You don't realise what you are missing on the airwaves until you have two radios.

Apologies for repeating some of previous post. I agree with it, good advice.

[haydnc]

How Many Radios?
Wondering whether to fit Two VHF radios to the build?

If you install the Garmin (Apollo) SL40 (https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=6440) you will end up with "1.5" radios, as you can listen to the standby frequency. It is also capable of loading you frequencies by RS232.

Should be just over $1800 US

The latest Icom and XCOM for example have dual watch capability. Two radios are a little more complex and require some kind of mic switch or audio panel so a little more complex.

There are 2 really good audio panels for sports / experimental:

PS Engineering (http://www.ps-engineering.com/audio.shtml) gear have bluetooth interface
Garmin GMA240 (https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=15011)


Both units are priced under $1000, there are a number of dealers in Australia. OZpilot (http://www.ozpilot.com.au) have got all the prices online, but so far I have found them the most expensive out of all the Garmin dealers.


My -7 will have both the GMA-240, and SL40.

Have a look at the install manuals for the garmin sports equipment, the last chapter has the 'simplified' wiring diagrams.

[baswell]

I have been told some of the Icoms with stand by monitoring don't actually have two receivers. When there are no broadcasts, it simply continually flip flops between the two frequencies and picks the first one to talks. (you won't hear that ATC call to you while listening to ATIS...

But in general, I agree. Why spend money on two when you can just get one with standby monitoring?

[Ixixly]

Definitely agree with the others. Yes it costs you a bit of extra money and time, and sure its only going to be useful probably 10% of the time, but that 10% could be dangerous moments where you only hear something important because you have the second Radio or are using the monitor function!! Not to mention redundancy of a fairly important piece of equipment.

You'll get yourself into good habits with using more than one radio after your first mistake selecting the wrong comm!! Personally i'm in the habit now where I almost always take a quick glance and do a touch check on the Comm Selector on first changing to a new frequency, only took a couple of transmissions on the wrong frequency and decided to start doing it!

[VH-XXX]

I have been told some of the Icoms with stand by monitoring don't actually have two receivers.

That's right Bas, it flips from one to the other and when the primary is receiving you don't hear the secondary. Rather than $1,500+ for a second radio, dual watch is the next best thing. Twin aerials are also an extra cost to consider plus the extra complexity of the wiring harness.

I find dual watch or dual radios the most useful when operating near adrop zone. I'll be on CTAF but then pick up discussions with Centre about aircraft near the drop zone (aka me) and them not knowing my intentions, thus delaying the drop aircraft until I've gone past or my intentions are known. It's great to be able to let centre know you are heading for the circuit versus flying through a drop zone.

It's also great for monitoring the chat channel. Yesterday I picked up a prolific pprune poster polishing up on his formation skills. Very professional bro :ok:

[baswell]

If you go for a "1.5" radio, no audio panel required. (if you don't have NAV radios!) But do yourself a favour and get an intercom like the PM-1000 anyway so you don't have to put up with ****ty built-in intercoms in the radios.

[Jack Ranga]

Don't be a tight arse, get 2. It's a safety issue, if you can't afford two radios at the price they are these days you shouldn't build it in the first place

[27/09]

Don't be a tight arse, get 2. It's a safety issue, if you can't afford two radios at the price they are these days you shouldn't build it in the first place

I don't necessarily agree. A safety issue, really? It depends on the type of use VFR/IFR and the airspace being operated in or nearby to for the majority of the time.

I sure as hell wouldn't put two radios in a small amateur built aircraft that was primarily being operated in uncontrolled airspace and even think twice about the need for two radios in some controlled airspace. The extra cost and complexity and weight penalty doesn't warrant it, it's not just the cost of the radios, the integration of those radios cost as well with the need for an audio panel etc. IMO the money would be better spent on something like a Zaon PCAS XRX.

[rjtjrt]

Haydnc wrote
"There are 2 really good audio panels for sports / experimental:
PS Engineering gear have bluetooth interface
Garmin GMA240"

From another web site discussion there has been a lot of angst about the GMA240.

" if it is wired for stereo and you plug in a mono headset it can blow the internal fuses. This is poor design, modern electronics are "short circuit proof". Other brands don't have this problem, nor does my home-built audio panel."

In US said to be $250-00 Garmin repair cost.
John

[Eljay]

I agree with JR. Don't be a tight arse, get 2.
I have had a couple of occations when outback and Melbourne Centre has warned me of conflicting aircraft.
I wouldn't have heard them if I was on CTAF or chat freqs.

[Capt Fathom]

chat freqs
Do we have them?

[VH-XXX]

Do we have them?

Radiocommunications (Aircraft and Aeronautical Mobile Stations) Class Licence 2006 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2012C00581)

Eljay is on the money, you really don't know what you are missing until you have the second frequency (or radio). They are great when you are flying away as a group, you can chat all day on chat whilst listening to centre at the same time. My XCOM had a push button on the yoke where I could switch from the primary to the secondary which was really handy.

I'm tipping that you'll end up with an IcomA210 or an XCOM760. They do a similar job, although the XCOM is smaller, uses less power and the intercom is better based on my experience (I'm not taking price into consideration). The A210's had a lot of issues when they came out but they are fairly sorted now.




1
(a) aero club operations
(b) flying school operations
(c) firespotting

119.1

2
Parachute club operations

119.2

3
Helicopter operations:
(a) air to air communications only
(b) ground to air and air to ground communications only


120.4


120.8

4
Aviation sport

120.85

5
Emergency operation:
(a) Satellite location:
(i) until 31 January 2009 — for aircraft stations and aeronautical mobile stations only
(ii) for aircraft stations only
(b) Homing:
(i) for aircraft stations only



121.51


243.01


406–406.1



121.51


Note
1 By international agreement, from 1 February 2009 the COSPAS‑SARSAT System will receive transmissions only in the frequency range 406‑406.1 MHz.
6
Glider or sailplane operations

122.5


122.7


122.9

7
Fishing operations or agricultural operations including stock mustering

122.8

8
Pilot to pilot communications

123.45

9
Air show

127.9

10
Traffic information broadcasts by aircraft (TIBA):
(a) at or above FL200
(b) below FL200


128.95


126.35

11
Aircraft industry testing

129.1

12
Crop dusting

129.6

13
Aerodrome operations

129.9

14
Charter purposes (above 20 000 feet)

135.95

15
Charter purposes and other purposes not listed in another item

126.4


128.9


135.55

[baswell]

I agree with JR. Don't be a tight arse, get 2.
I have had a couple of occations when outback and Melbourne Centre has warned me of conflicting aircraft.
You do not need two radios to get that benefit, one that will (truly) monitor the standby frequency does the same. Buying a single radio without that ability in 2013 would probably be silly.

Two individual ones is only useful if you expect one to fail, but there there are still plenty of single-points-of-failure that are not covered, like power, the intercom and PTT switches.

[Jack Ranga]

That formation stuff sounds really interesting X??

[VH-XXX]

It's also great for monitoring the chat channel. Yesterday I picked up a prolific PPRuNe poster polishing up on his formation skills. Very professional bro

That formation stuff sounds really interesting X??

You tell me Jacko :ok: Depends on your interpretation of prolific ;)

[jas24zzk]

I think we should go back to semaphore and flares...much simpler

[djpil]

Chat freq?
Interpilot air-to-air communications in Australian FIRs may be conducted on frequency 123.45MHZ. Communications between aircraft on this frequency are restricted to the exchange of information relating to aircraft operations.

[Arnold E]

You do not need two radios to get that benefit, one that will (truly) monitor the standby frequency does the same. Buying a single radio without that ability in 2013 would probably be silly.The power supply in your single duel channel monitoring radio has just expired............now what.:confused:

[baswell]

Squawk 7600 and keep calm.

[Capt Fathom]

Squawk 7600

Should I install a Transponder then?

[VH-XXX]

The power supply in your single duel channel monitoring radio has just expired............now what.

That happened to me at 6,000 ft right on top and I mean exactly overheard Tulla just after receiving a new lower altitude and awaiting my next waypoint and right before I got out my read-back. I must say Arnold, it does happen!

I did what I thought I was supposed to, continued on the last instruction, squarked 7600 and pulled out the handheld. Small problem, I hadn't written down the frequency (always write them down!), looked up the ERSA, found the right frequency and pulled out the handheld. Established comms with the headset off and was subsequently told to quickly change back to my allocated code.

When you squark 7600 alarms go off all over the country, Tulla, East Sale and anywhere within 250 miles at least, or so they tell me.

[Jack Ranga]

Fathom, pissed myself laughing at that one, good one. :ok: but also true. If they can't afford a second radio and intercom what chance they're putting a transponder in?

[Jack Ranga]

X, you got a radio fail, squawk 7600, they'll tell you to go back to assigned code when they get you back but still squawk it.

Also read the radio fail procedure for clearances also in ERSA, that's what they want & expect you to do :ok:

[tecman]

I get along well with one Icom IC A210 in my P2002JF. The dual-watch capability works fine and the radio itself is cheap enough ($1200 or so). And yes, I do also have a transponder :) With a larger aircraft I'd be happy enough to spend the extra cash on another transceiver and basic audio panel, especially if I planned more ambitious operations. As someone else mentioned, do yourself a favour and buy a decent intercom. Seems no-one has much good to say about the integrated intercomms in any of the new generation comm sets.

In terms of redundancy the best solution is probably the hand-held, bypassing as it does a few single failure points in the aircraft.

[Sunfish]

Just doing an "around the bay" scenic will have you monitoring Melb Radar, then the chopper CTAF, then YPCK, YMAV, back to Melb Radar, then YMMB ATIS, then YMMB.

Two radios and Audio panel.

The handheld is in my flight bag anyway. Its doubtful that you could use it considering engine noise.

Mode S ES transponder (probably Trig)

And maybe, just maybe, if the stockmarket is good to me, one of those radios will be a Garmin GTN 625(?) which gives me a backup moving map as well as a TSO'd GPS input for the Trig, which would make me ADS-B out compliant.

Then maybe ADS B In when Dynon writes the interface for a cheap product.

Then the Dynon Skyview with a couple of servos added and I can sit on the ground, wondering how it all works, then there is the iPad, and paper maps.... and the Go Pro camera........no need to go flying.:E

[tecman]

Easy enough to buy or make a GA headset plug adapter for most handhelds. It's an installation beloved of the trike guys.

[Sunfish]

Help me! I'm suffering from gadgetitis. I will come home from Avalon with 30kg of brochures on new products from LED interior lights to constant speed props.

[Jack Ranga]

Don't go to Oshkosh

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ignore the 'trash' Sunny....GO TO OSH!!!

Take ya wallet, credit card, debit card etc etc and have a ball.....
Things is cheap over there....
:}

[baswell]

Fathom, pissed myself laughing at that one, good one. but also true. If they can't afford a second radio and intercom what chance they're putting a transponder in?
If they don't waste money on a second radio and audio panel, they might have cash left over for a transponder! :ok:

You'd be surprised how many experimental and recreational day-VFR aircraft fly around with that combo... It's only 40 year old Cessnas with original radios that fail every other week that need two. :p

[Jack Ranga]

A second radio & audio panel won't ever be a waste of money :ok: neither is a transponder. They don't have to be TSO'd so are a reasonable price. Save your pennys for just a little longer. Do yourself and the aviation community a favour :ok:

[mscheuer]

This panel does it all. PAR100EX. It comes with a 5 watt remote mounted VHF transceiver, 4 place intercom, stereo music and Bluetooth(R)
Made by PS Engineering, Inc.

[Capt Fathom]

Confusion over this is what has morons worldwide referring to 121.5MHz as "guard"

Only because they are guarding 121.5! Seems reasonable! But I digress.

[Sunfish]

Dynon is apparently releasing a software driven radio as part of its skyview system.

[VH-XXX]

A Garmin 300 mfd would do the job nicely but doesn't have a radio. GNS430 would be nice but expensive and VFR only so an overkill. The non tso'ed VFR gear will give the best bang for buck.

I'm tipping Sunny will end up with a Dynon unit (Skyview at a stretch) plus an Icom 210.

On a somewhat unrelated topic ill get one of these for my project assuming their Bluetooth is reliable. An iPad on one side for aircraft and engine and an iPad on the other for OZRunways.

[Capt Fathom]

Sorry, by 'morons' I was referring to the civvy pilots who tune their second VHF transceiver to 121.5 and call it "guard"

I tried!

Straight through to the keeper! :E

[Eclan]

One of these to run your radios...


http://www.rockwellcollins.com/Products_and_Systems/Communications_and_Networks/~/media/Images/Pages/Products%20and%20Systems/Communications%20and%20Networks/Comm-Audio%20Management%20and%20Controls/Comm%20Audio%20Management%20Controls_483x202.ashx

[T28D]

Simple fact , you need 2, one on primary, one on guard.

There is no other way !!!!!

[Sunfish]

Dynon Skyview is definite ADAHRS already on its way since it needs to be fitted in the back.

A Garmin GTN635 GPS/Map/Com is possible. It gives me a TSO'd GPS signal for ADS-B out even though that isn't mandatory just yet. It also gives me a backup moving map, along with the iPad, so it isn't really necessary

Transponder? Must be mode S extended squitter mandatory from Feb 2014. Dynon is possible. it is managed through the Skyview display. So would a Garmin GDL23 remote - managed through the GTN 635. Or a Stand alone Trig.

Second radio? Yes. Icom 210. Probably a Garmin audio panel as well.

ADS-B in would be nice, but it doesnt show much GA traffic - yet and Dynon doesn't support the International system - yet.

Magnetic Compass, 3 inch airspeed and altimeter already purchased for when the electrics fail.

I've decided I'm not into teeny weeny gauges and LCD displays, fat fingers and turbulence makes then difficult to set.

[Arnold E]

Second radio? Yes. Icom 210.

I would look at the Icom 200 rather than the 210. Look at the way the 210 is mounted and you will see what I mean. :ok: