Norwegian Long Haul - selection and terms

[Boeing operator]

Hi

Am a heavy Boeing operator and noted a few months ago that Norwegian Long Haul through Rishworth were looking for experienced Boeing pilots. Sent in my papers and will shortly attend the screening.

Does anyone know what the two online tests are all about? Anyway to prepare?

Does anyone know what the sim-ride (seems like a standard PC and will be in a B737NG) and interview is like? Relaxed? What are the criteria they look for in general? People who failed, what did they do wrong?

Finally, what’s the latest with the deal of having a BKK-base? Will that just be on paper, and that you actually work out of – for example – Stockholm or Oslo? Permanent employment in the future, or is Norwegian Long Haul prepared to take the risk of having 300 – 400 pilots in the future on contracts and no one employed? For me that sounds suicidal. After the bond (3 years) probably quite a few pilots would go to other companies with better conditions (and have a valuable rating).

Thanks for all input regarding the above (for one that is even considering not to show up on the screening due to the contract at hand). :confused:

[Boeing operator]

Hello again

Over 1,000 have read this thread, but none replied.

Have anyone been to NLH screening?

Pls, PM me if you would have some information.

:ok:

[LeftHeadingNorth]

Aight, I'll give it a go then. LH operation is as of now on hold as far as I know. Course starts have been cancelled (or rather postponed). The selection consists of a personality test, online IQ test (whats the next figure etc. Pretty standards stuff from what I hear), HR interview and a sim check. Sim is done on the 737. Not sure about profiles etc but should be pretty standards as well (SID, eng fail, approach and land). They want normal decent pilots who know what they're doing. That's it.

Deal wise it's very difficult to say what roster etc is gonna look like. I don't think they know it themselves. Remember, the LH operation is brand new so things are changing constantly.

Best of luck!

[captplaystation]

I understand that the following video may be relevant


Duracell Bunny Commercial UK - YouTube (http://youtu.be/TYPuN6wJC9E)




Or perhaps an A340 rating :rolleyes:

[Boeing operator]

Thank you LeftHeadingNorth.

We'll see how picky they are keeping in mind the contract at hand.

If I understand it correct, they expect pilots rated on heavy equipment (that most probably already have a job), JAR/EASA ATPL holders, that have the right to live and work in the EU/EES (like most asians don't have), to move to Bangkok away from your friends and family, rent an apartment, get paid offshore, pay your own taxes and have no social security at all?

Well, where do i sign up?! :suspect:

[Larscho]

Unfortunately for you, it seems as they are going to lease A340 from "Hi-fly" from Portugal. Good luck anyway!

[Boeing operator]

Larscho, that seems to be an interim solution if the B787 is delayed. I can not imagine they will use the A340 as a permanent solution, being very thirsty.

And I don’t get my longed Bangkok-base…

[TowerDog]

BKK can be a sweet base if one is single....
Did not apply, too lazy for a new course and too married for Bangkok:sad:

[bfisk]

"too married for Bangkok"

Epic. :ok:

[54fighting]

BTW - Thai Tax Authorities well aware of the upcoming game.

Fully aware of living/working charade in the kingdom.

Not nice not to hire qualified Thai citizens, due to no European
passport, and come play in the backyard.

Be fully warned. Unfortunately you dissed the wrong Thai guy.

Sawadee Khap

[nyhellesund]

I still can´t understand why anybody would fly around with the callsign "whoreshuttle", and continue to **** up the airline industry.........I guess I´m oldschool.

A friend of mine working for Norwegian (he is not proud of it, and I have told him what I think about it) was called on standby to JUMPSEAT......The captain on the flight was not to shure that the first officer could get the airplane on the ground safely, if something happend to him.:ok:

Sorry, probably wrong thread.....but info for somebody who is considering Norwegian.

[H. Hughes]

I believe what you are referring to is called Safety Pilot. A common practice to enhance the safety on the first few sectors of Line Training. Common practice, not only at Norwegian.

[viking767]

Common practice where? I have never heard of any airline doing this. If the copilot has been through the sim course and passed the checkride, why would there be any doubt about the copilot being able to get the plane on the ground if something happened to the check airman?

[idiotsrus]

* #11 (permalink)
nyhellesund
*
"I still can´t understand why anybody would fly around with the callsign "whoreshuttle", and continue to **** up the airline industry.........I guess I´m oldschool.

A friend of mine working for Norwegian (he is not proud of it, and I have told him what I think about it) was called on standby to JUMPSEAT......The captain on the flight was not to shure that the first officer could get the airplane on the ground safely, if something happend to him

Sorry, probably wrong thread.....but info for somebody who is considering Norwegian."



Oh Dear.
What a spot on descrition from someone who is clearly a candidate for the position as a vise president of my club.
Nyhellesund shows that he has at least passed the age of 15 with his informative and valuable information. The fact that he also is taking upon himself the resposibility to tell his friend about what he thinks about the company, tells us that Nyhellesund clearly must be of some importance. I am sure his friend quit Norwegian when Nyhellesund told him.

The hatered You show for Norwegian and their employees may indicate to some degree Your mental stability and capacity. I am sure You are safe in the cockpit. That is indeed if You are placed in such enviroment. I am also sure it must be a history behind Your passion for the company. I am not indicating that You got turned down by them. Someone else might think so, but I am sure they must be mistaken.

Old school or not, this and Your previous postings made You a distinguished member of this club.

Post Your full name and address so I can mail You a membership card. If Your mothers address for some obscure reason is different from Yours, post hers also so I can send a card to her as well. She also deserves a membership for giving birth to a fine specimen such as Yourself.

[captplaystation]

Great post idiotsrus, I would also like a membership application :ok: as I work in NAS too, so must be deserving :rolleyes:

I don't know which companies Viking767 & nyhelllesund work/have worked for, but everywhere I have been has rostered a "safety pilot" for 1st few sectors of Line Training (to take some of the load off the Training Capt as much as anything ) Common industry practice, no idea which planet these two have operated on.

[viking767]

Captplaystation, I am not trying to start a fight here. Just noting that I have never heard of this practice anywhere. And I do believe we operate on the same planet,sometimes even on the same continent.

[A and C]

As CPS says its common practice and usually the dutys of the safety pilot are only to do a bit of the company paperwork so as to take some of the non flying workload off the captain in the early stages of line training.

Oh ! It is also not unusual for the safety pilot to ensure an adequate supply of tea & coffee.

In thirty years I have yet to hear of a safety pilot being called to fly the aircraft.

[TowerDog]

Been there, done that: "Safety Pilot" for a certain middle east airline with brand new F/Os onbard. I was a fairly senior F/O and as such ended up in the left seat to train the new F/O in the right seat at cruise while the Captain sat back in First Class dining and socializing. He usually left the flight deck in the climb at 10,000' and returned in the descent passing 10,000'. They paid me 80% of Captains pay and I had the dubious status of being a Training F/O or some such thing..:sad:

A bit unusual and not like the NAS program but different strokes for different folks and yes, it was on the same planet. ;)

[jetflyger]

Standard procedure in some Asian carriers including all Japanese ones. A qualified FO sits in the jumpseat until the newly trained pilot in the right seat receives his or hers blessing to operate as Pilot Monitoring

[Thrush]

Standard practice to have a safety pilot for the first few sectors in all airlines that I have been with. AKA Paperwork Bitch. And Chief Brewer-up.:eek:

Not too sure I'd be happy with an airline that didn't bother or consider it necessary. "Skimping" is not a good word in flying...

Better training value too so the Instructor can instruct, and not have all the paperwork to do!

[Fbwdude]

Standard practice in South America too.The first few sectors with a senior FO ,just in case.
Best regards to all.

[Kickingkatie]

Standard practise just about everywhere that has decent standards.

I would have thought more applicable to the Countries where they do not physically land the actual aircraft before being given the rating.

The training capt has to be confident that in the event something should happen to him that the new FO can get the aircraft on the ground safely. Until that point the safety pilot comes for a ride. Sounds like good common sense stuff to me.

[Kirks gusset]

Even at THY this is standard to have a safety pilot during the first few sectors, apart from the P1 incapacitation etc, it allows for more focus on flying and reduces the workload on the FO under training. Been like this at most legacy carriers for the last 20 yrs.

[Boeing operator]

It's great to know that safety pilots are commonly used in so many airlines, but that is outside this topic. Please discuss that in a new thread.

Instead, any news about the terms or selection? Kjos (CEO) talks about additional B787 to the eight already coming.

My main concern is where one can be based and under what conditions. I fly long haul on heavy Boeing, but to change to Norwegian Long Haul with so uncertain conditions is very unlikely. Please convince me!

[aloha1985]

Åpner direkterute til Florida (http://www.dn.no/forsiden/naringsliv/article2595936.ece)

TowerDog: Perhaps FLL base is possible afterall ;)

[Boeing operator]

Anyone been on the selection lately that can share some knowledge?

Hear they are looking at the 8 B787 LOT has and has on order. That will bring the total to 16. Also heard that the total number of airplanes they're looking at is 25.

Who will fly them under the terms at hand?

[Sceptical23]

Just saw that Norwegian Long Haul brought in "Virgin Atlantic’s expertise on long-haul operations" Norwegian and Virgin Atlantic pilots to cooperate on the Boeing 787 training and long-haul expertise, will expand in Germany | World Airline News (http://worldairlinenews.com/2013/05/14/norwegian-and-virgin-atlantic-pilots-to-cooperate-on-the-boeing-787-training-and-long-haul-expertise-will-expand-in-germany/) Makes one wonder what kind of experience the pilots they hired for the first aircrafts possess? Understand Rishworth is in charge of the hiring? What can possibly go wrong?

[TowerDog]

Aloha:
Nada, not chasing no more flying jobs.
At last count I had 19 flying gigs behind me including short and long term contracts, etc.
(Resume looks like a disaster:sad:)

Be happy to buy a ticket to the old country now and then but summer time only..:=

[aloha1985]

At least that could be cheap now (with all that involves) :hmm:

[TowerDog]

Yeah, but would rather pay $20.00 more for the ticket so the pilots could look themselfs in the mirror when shaving:sad:

[aloha1985]

*like* :ok:

[cucuotto]

TowerDog well said!!! I just wonder who is going to fly with NLH given the unspeakable T&C and haze surrounding this ops...

[TowerDog]

scabs....?

Or do you mean pax, as if who is going to fly on NLH?

Joe Sixpack will always buy the cheapest tickets regardless how many sluts are up front selling their souls to the lowest bidder...:sad:

[Boeing operator]

Now the first 787 has been delivered to NLH, and will start passenger ops in four days.

Given this the already trained pilots should have got their first roster.

Can anyone of them please share it to us interested in the company?

I know that the first month will be ops out of OSL inside Europe, but perhaps you guys already have the roster for August when the long haul starts?

How does the BKK-base work when you have ops out of OSL?

Cheers!

[topofthegap]

Hi guys,

I'm just wondering has any FO's gone for the Long Haul interview yet. If so can you tell me what the two online aptitude tests were and what was the interview like. Many thanks for any info! :)

[Jetjockey145]

Not been for screening yet, and likely won't be after the two online tests!:\

The personality test is very straightforward. All pretty standard questions. Some are repeated a different way to see if you are telling fibs of course.
I answered the questions quickly and honestly which is the best way. I am an easy going friendly sort of guy, and I am sure that will come out on the test result. :)

However, the IQ test (for want of a better description) was not easy.
35 questions in all and my brain slowed up after question 27. I would have found this test fairly straight forward in my younger days, but with the onset of increasing years it was more difficult.

No way of really knowing how you have done until you get an email I suppose.

An educated guess tells me that if you make a real pigs ear of either test then the powers that be at Norwegian will can your screening pretty sharpish. No point in getting you out to Oslo for a sim check etc if your test results suggest you have difficulty tying your own shoe laces.

Not sure of the validity of these tests really, although big companies love them. We used to use them at BA many years ago and they proved inconclusive. We had to fire many that scored highly in these tests, and we also turned down many that I knew to be very, very good. I had to sit similar tests for my present company and did well but................:ugh:

Oh well, sit and wait now. I suspect that if you have been flagged up as Mr Average (or slightly worse) by these tests, you may still get a screening as the final decider.

I think a lot will also depend on how many applications they have had. There has been a lot of bad press on here about this contract, with terms such as scab being thrown around. In my case the T's and C's are perfectly acceptable and I would be more than happy to take the job if offered.

Others on this site think differently. :mad:

I have thousands of hours on the 737 and just want to see out my pre retirement years flying Long Haul, and No I am not already on a pension and stealing others jobs!:ok:

Anybody with other info please speak up!

Thanks.

[captplaystation]

This from the TUI thread here


"A 2007 study provided evidence that individuals with Asperger syndrome, a high-functioning autism spectrum disorder, score higher than other individuals on Raven's tests.[10] Another 2007 study provided evidence that individuals with classic autism, a low-functioning autism spectrum disorder, score higher in Raven's tests than in Wechsler tests. In addition, the individuals with classic autism were providing correct answers to the Raven's test in less time than individuals without autism, although erring as often"

You don't want to do TOO well on the Matrigma test (most of us don't)

Latest word is that there will be a crew base in the Big Apple. . . that should net them a good few more applicants & may simultaneously force their hand to up the T's & C's.

[Jetjockey145]

Hi Capt Playstation.

Interesting facts re test subjects with Autism. Perhaps it's best not to do so well at these tests. :\ (He says unconvincingly). ;)

Re the Big Apple base, Hmmmm. I am currently trying to do the Math on this contract. I currently fly the B737 for a UK operator and am paid much the same money as NLH are paying for the Dreamliner position. However....
I am paying £300+ a month for hotel accommodation as I live over 200 miles from my base, and I pay another £300+ a month for Diesel for tearing miles up and down the motorway. Sum total of maybe £650 a month before I blink. :ugh:Frankly, I may as well be renting an Apartment in Bangkok and getting home once a month?

I have always wanted to spend some years flying Long Haul before I retire but obviously don't want to incur financial hardship to do it. :sad:
I worked a week for NAS last year on a wet lease and enjoyed it. I visited Oslo and liked it, BUT......... 2 Hotdogs and a Cola at the Airport cost me £20. :ouch: Needless to say, any lengthy stays in Oslo due nightstops could work out expensive. I am sure the hotel and breakfast will be provided but don't dare order lunch or dinner!

The big question for me will be the tax situation. As I understood it, one is paid via Rishworth. I also understood that one had to be self employed (own company) to be taken on. That being the case.......... Is the tax removed from your salary by Rishworth before you get paid? This appears to be a complicated issue.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to be a tax dodger. :=
The situation is simple. If I am self employed I am allowed to offset expenses such as flights, hire cars, food, pension payments, etc against my tax bill. At the year end I pay tax on any profit left in the my company.
This makes a huge difference to the suitability of any Salary paid by NLH.

If on the other hand, as has been suggested somewhere on this site, Rishworth take out the Tax first and hand it straight to HMRC (Government), then that makes life really difficult when trying to offset pension payments etc.

So, am I self employed or am I not? I'm certainly not being given a contract by NLH. I'm not saying this would be a deal breaker for me, but it would help to know what they intend to do. :confused:

Once again, if anybody knows any more, please tell us.

Thanks all. :)

[c130jbloke]

Re the previous post;

I work offshore for a Norwegian oil + gas company and I get deployed all over the world. My point is that despite you being self employed, the Norwegian tax agency WILL want their cut, the tax self assessment is an IQ test in itself and I think you are looking at 36% upwards based on projected pay rates.
Just be aware of what you may be getting yourself into..

[Iver]

Have any Norwegian 737 pilots been "seconded" or granted a sabbatical to fly for Longhaul 787 yet? Any NAS 737 FOs make the jump? Or are all recent newhires from other airlines?

I presume the skipper slots were filled by former 767/777 expat Captains while the FO slots were open to a wider variety of pilots meeting the minimums... Just curious if the mother airline allowed a few people to move over to longhaul.

Cheers

[Boeing operator]

Regarding taxes, Rishworth says that you are in charge of all taxes that must be paid.

You are employed in Singapore, but don't live there, so according to Rishworth Singapore doesn't want your taxes. You're based in BKK, but doesn't work for a Thai airline, so according to Rishworth Thailand doesn't want your taxes.

The result is that you pay taxes where you live. If you for example live in any western European country you will first have to pay the social taxes (as a company or as an individual), and after that income taxes.

If you get €6000 (first officer), you first pay social taxes of about €1500, and income tax of €1300. You will get net €3200. That's including per diem, so spending about 15 days away per month, spending an average of €30 per day, is another €500 off. Perhaps you take home €2700 net spending 15 days home per month (if you're lucky).

In addition, you're based in BKK and NLH doesn't pay for accomodation there, so everytime you sleep in BKK you end up paying for hotel (or share a flat).

Just an example. The figures are from Sweden, but the other Nordic countries, Holland or UK is not much different.

[captplaystation]

I believe a few (and it was a "few" ) contract FO's made the jump across, the post above probably clarifies why it was not a headlong rush :hmm:

I haven't heard of any core FO's taking a leave of absence to hawk their wedding tackle around the world, although rumour suggests quite a few have now accepted 737 Command with the caveat that they take LOA as Contract Capt in Spain (resulting in some of us in Spain being dumped for Winter in the Canaries if I am not mistaken :oh: )

[Oceansailer]

Have spoken to UK National Insurance department and the view is that NI contributions ( social tax ) will not need to be paid in UK. Being resident for tax is completely different to being resident for NI. Therefore would appear that not everywhere in western Europe is the same in this regard.

[Boeing operator]

@Oceansailer

Interesting. But under those circumstances, you wouldn't be covered by the social system in UK (or elsewhere within EU), but perhaps in Singapore (if you pay social taxes in Singapore.

Rishworth contract says - for example - maternity leave is according to Singapore regulations, implying that social taxes are paid in Singapore?

The contract also states that NLH once per year can ask the pilot to provide papers that all relevant taxes have been paid by the pilot, in all relevant states.

When will they offer direct employment in NLH? :ugh:

[Jetjockey145]

Hmmmm. This gets more interesting by the minute. I had no idea that NI payment and income tax were subject to different rules.

OK, so taxes are paid in the UK...... But...........
If I am self employed, then it is up to me to submit accounts and pay income tax on the profit. Accomodation in Bangkok (or anywhere else), plus travelling costs, plus food costs at outstations, etc, would all be deductible from the Euro 6000 each month. income tax would only be payable on the profit left in the company after all these bits have been deducted surely?
That is exactly how it worked the last time I did this (in the UK)

As a self employed person you are entitled to claim for all this stuff. If you pay yourself the UK minimum wage (No personal income tax due), then only Corporation Tax at 20% is due on your company profit at the Tax year end.

So..... if your company has earned Euro 72,000 in a year and has outgoings of Euro 60,000 (wages, travel and accommodation cost, food, etc), Then your company pays 20% Corporation tax on Euro 12,000. That is a final tax bill of Euro 2400.

Am I missing something?

Thanks. :)

[cucuotto]

A scam for scabs.

[nomad_07]

With regards to UK tax, in a very basic nutshell, yes you are missing something. Tax is due on wages, so if you take it as a salary that it taxable at the normal rate, if you take it as dividends under a certain threshold (currently around 30k/year), no tax is due. Corporation tax is due on whatever profit is made, it depends how your accountant does it, but I would suggest you would be paying tax on about 20-30k not 12k. I do agree with other posters, the lack of clarity on where one is expected to pay tax makes this contract slightly challenging. High taxation in Thailand, and I would not want to play with Thai or Norwegian tax man! Good luck!

[Jetjockey145]

Cucuotto.

Very helpful indeed. Your post makes no sense whatsoever. Are you attacking me or Norwegian?

A few facts for you. Large companies are entitled to do whatever they like re company setup, etc, etc, etc, as long as it is legal. If you have any doubts look at the likes of Starbucks and Amazon. Despite making Millions in the UK, they pay little tax in the UK by routing business through Ireland etc. It hacks off the Taxman, it hacks off the general public, but they can do nothing because it is legal.
I have yet to see the great UK public shying away from Starbucks or Amazon in large numbers or for any length of time. :=

The bottom line is that these companies will continue to do more and more of this sort of thing as the years go on. Yes, the working conditions usually suffer, But the profits for the shareholders increase as a result. Oh, look at that, many of the shareholders are members of the general public, what a surprise. So some benefit from this activity, and some lose out!

At the end of the day you will never stop this activity, it is here to stay, like it or not! The only decision to be made at this point, is whether to go with it or not. Your decision appears to be not, mine is to make the most of it if the contract is acceptable. I have read the contract, and it is acceptable to me. :) Yes, this is possibly because I am at that time of life where all my bills are paid, and I have money in the bank, but frankly that is irrelevant. Some people will find the Contract acceptable if it suits their needs and they will apply.

You can whinge all day and throw insults but it will make not a jot of difference. NLH will get their pilots. I already know a couple and they are very experienced guys, and the contract suits their needs! And if you think that I will abstain from applying on principle, while somebody else slides into my seat instead, forget it. I want the job, not the feel good factor of being out of the job but a conscientious objector.
This in no way makes me a scab, it makes me a realist, best of luck with remaining bitter and twisted.

Hi Nomad_07

Thanks for that. A few points though. Any wages paid to me by my Company, who are paid by Rishworth who are paid by NLH :ugh: are only subject to Tax in the UK if they are paid to me above my personal tax threshold/code.
If my company pays me less or equal to then no personal Tax is due. The remainder stays in the Company and profit left after all expenses, pension payments, and Dividends are taken has 20% corporation tax levied on it. As for the dividends themselves, I was under the impression that they were taxed at 20% also, but that no NI (Social Tax) is due on them.

This was how I and several others ran their affairs when on Contract several years ago, and the UK Tax man was happy with that. :confused:

Just my tuppence worth. Anybody that thinks my accountant dropped a clanger please speak up. I am always happy to be corrected and get the latest info.

I agree that there is a lack of clarity re all this, and yes, I am assuming that because I will be paying tax in the UK, and because a reciprocal agreement exists, then I could not be taxed again in Norway or Thailand.
I am prepared to be enlightened here if I am assuming too much. :uhoh:

Regards. :)

[nomad_07]

Hi,

Im not sure where the 20% on dividends comes from. No tax is due if you take dividends under the tax free threshold, this year it's about 30k. So if you take 30k in dividends and personal allowance as salary then no personal tax is due. Corporation tax is due at 20% on all profits. If you take dividends above the threshold, combined with personal allowances, you are almost straight into higher rate income tax.

As for mutual agreement for social security, I think that's just in the EU. And have a look at the FR forums to see how clear that is for people mixed up in it as contractors!

[Pin Head]

So what's the best way to arrange this?

[Jetjockey145]

Blimey, beginning to sound like a nightmare. Obviously I am going to have to look into this further.

Could you clarify re the "FR" forums.

Many thanks. :)

P.S. A light is beginning to glimmer somewhere in the back of my head re the Dividends not being taxable. I'm off to phone the accountant.

[cucuotto]

Jetjockey.. with that nick name well I sure believe this contract suits you.
You must have a chip on your shoulder as my post was not at all hitting at you.
It is just a fact. This is a scam and whoever accept it is a scab...period. And I agree...seen the level this profession has sunk .. they will find people all right. You mention Starbucks, Amazon...Well my friend I don't know if you read the news paper. A major investigation is ongoing on their tax practices in EU countries. And what about Ryanair pilots? They have been chased by tax man all over Europe. You cannot work as a self employed pilot... period. You are not a self employed worker, you have to follow rules and timetable imposed by your employer. You are an employee. Therefore you are entitled to social security pensions and all other benefit. Mr Norwegian ( an ex military pilot and lawyer with a face that doesn't really inspire..) is betting that the system will not change and this globalized **** up will carry on forever. Well sorry to say it will not because the people who are paying the price with unemployment in EU are getting to their limit and serious unrest will start soon if things don't change. He wants to compete with EK and Qatar and the like. as they don't bear social cost. Well they are negating human and worker rights as well and instead of fighting them on this " image" weakness he goes and follow their lead. You must be an idiot to set up such a complicated gig ( contract in Singapore, based in Thailand , Norwegian registered aircraft, Thai cabin crew, EASA licensed pilots ) to avoid paying taxes. The result is that they will get the "discards" and few cheap retired mercenaries with no loyalty if not may be the bond that anyway any court in Europe will tell you is an illegal practice. It could have been a nice opportunity and they just spoiled it.

[captplaystation]

cucuotto said

Norwegian registered aircraft


Er. . . . No, last time I checked it said EI-LNA on the side, not LN-*** .

I am sure there is a very good reason for this, although I believe "at the moment" AOC is still Norwegian, hence the argy- bargy about Thai CC still awaiting resolution.

[Jetjockey145]

Hi Cucuotto.

That wasn't nice.:( There was no need to have a go at me. :eek:

I understand your frustration re all of this. All I was saying is that these things go on. I know about the investigation with Amazon et all, but they are insisting they are following the rules (we shall see).

I also take your point re the self employment. I have seen these rules and guidelines on the HMRC website. I am sure you could be right re "Not really being self employed"

I honestly feel that it is unfair to call those interested scabs though.
Yes, it is not ideal, but it will suit some for a multitude of reasons.
Whatever the reasons that NLH are doing what they are doing, there are those of us that can find this deal dooable. The reality is that if I turned my nose up and abstained, there will be another 100 behind me waiting for a chance. In fact they would be trampling me to death within seconds.
I have had to go with it. I am not a "discard or Mercenary".
I already have a nice steady 737 job in the UK, but have always wanted to fly Long Haul. For various reasons (for me) people like EK and Qatari and the Japanese and Chinese setups just don't suit.

I just want to do the Long Haul thing before I am thrown on the great scrapheap of life.

Hope this helps explain.

P.S. How do I change my handle ;)

[cucuotto]

Frustrations??? Well may be you are getting the wrong impression as I'm one of the many that turned down their offer. I 'd rather be a really self employed shoe cleaner than being abused by Mr. Norwegian. Still a shame as it could have been a nice opportunity to go back to Europe.Sure not to Thailand ( which I enjoy as I layover for two nights.... sometimes and that is it.).
This contracts suits those who are in worst condition flying multiple sector with similarly illegal contracts for other low costs companies ,the unemployed and a few retiree unable to stop flying. You are probably one of them and you are not really helping yourself or future pilots generations. Unless we want to accept that flying airplane will be like driving bus in the future .Someone is trying to pass this idea already. I hope you will get lucky with the lady boys on board and their unspeakably ugly and cheap uniform. Cause that is what you mean with "changing handle" ..right ?

[Jetjockey145]

Hi Cucuotto

Urmm.

No, not at retirement age. Plenty of years left in me yet to build my retirement fund. No, not unable to stop flying. No, not on an illegal contract or even flying multi sector days. I have a nice job at the moment based in the UK, employed by the company, and I'm not worked very hard.

Re the lady boys :eek: I'd rather not thanks. I'm standard NATO in that area.
Re their Uniform, sorry, I'm no fashion guru.

I have to ask a question though (if I may).

I believe you when you say that you and others have turned this down. My question is why go to the trouble of sitting the online tests, attend an interview, do a sim check, and then say no when they offer you the job?
The contract is readily available before any of this. Did nobody read it first?

Just asking. :) i'm curious.

[cucuotto]

Jetjockey than I must doubt your mental sanity. Why leaving a stable job to join an outfit that might or might not work out. Long haul low cost..Scoot is doing far from well...and SIA has a bit more experience in the business than Norwegian. Competing with EK, Etihad, Qatar, Turkish...mhhh. Is there such a market for cheap flights to far and costly destinations. One count is the Brit back packer that never flew taking Ryanair to Ibiza and sleeping on the beach with is ID card... Another going to JFK.. if you can afford the trip 100 dollars in price ticket difference in the overall package will not make the difference.. but the free and quality catering probably does.
Any screening is a a good way to keep up to date an test your self provided you don't have to pay for anything and this was the case. The T&C proposed were rigid and not acceptable to any qualified 777 "jockey".. plenty of better offer out there...sorry.

[cucuotto]

Norwegian apologizes for long-haul flight service
Published: 18 Jun 2013 10:23 GMT+02:00 | Print version
Updated: 18 Jun 2013 10:23 GMT+02:00

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Norwegian Air Shuttle, Europe's third-largest budget airline, apologized on Monday for refusing passengers food, water and even blankets on its recently launched long-haul flights to New York and Bangkok.

Norwegian air mulls Irish registries to cut costs (25 Apr 13)
Norwegian Air in massive plane purchase (25 Jan 12)
Airline Norwegian charged flyers double (10 Jan 12)
A 16-year-old spent his Oslo to New York flight freezing since he only had cash and no credit card with him to pay the $5 fee charged by the carrier for renting a blanket, the daily newspaper Aftenposten wrote.

That followed a report last week of Norwegian crew members taking back a cup of coffee from a Thai woman after it emerged she only had cash and a local credit card with her. The woman was also unable to buy food or water on the 12-hour flight.

"This is totally unacceptable. Norwegian must ensure its passengers are treated well and we apologize deeply," company spokesman Lasse Sandaker-Nielsen told AFP.

"We are the first to admit that we have had some start-up problems on the long-haul flights," he told AFP.

Only a handful of budget airlines operate long-haul routes and passengers are sometimes surprised to find out that they have to pay for services other carriers offer free of charge.

Norwegian is going to review its policy of only accepting credit card payments and will improve its communication with customers, Sandaker-Nielsen said.

The two episodes quickly drew the ire of social media users.

"Unbelievable that people have the courage to fly Norwegian. Not being able to drink water can lead to death," said Thor Olsen on Twitter, while Tor Andre Ljosland speculated that "soon you will also need a credit card to use the toilet."

Norwegian expects to take delivery of its first Boeing 787 Dreamliner at the end of this month, almost two months behind schedule following problems with the planes' batteries.

The company has leased two Airbus A340s from Portugal's HiFly to avoid delaying the launch of its New York and Bangkok flights.

[Jetjockey145]

Blimey. Not good news. Sounds like a right cockup. :\

[dera]

If you have to start a company to employ yourself as a pilot somewhere, you may just as well go EU-shopping and start that company somewhere else and not in the UK. Estonia and Bulgaria are currently pretty good at that, Estonia with a very favourable business taxation system, and Bulgaria with a very low flat-rate income tax rate.

Its not always a ripoff, you can play that game too.

[cucuotto]

Sorry mate.. you can't legally do that in Europe. An acquaintance of mine got a 240000 euro bill for 7 year tax evasion with Ryanair. Ryanair is now obliged to pay pension contributions in the base country. With fiscal union the game will be over.If you want to be more competitive with Gulf carriers and the like the only way is to push to have tariffs imposed on them same that on Chinese solar panels instead of promoting social dumping and unemployment by hiring Thai cabin crew. And this is even more strikingly bad as we are talking about a Scandinavian company. What to do.. all countries have their arsholes and Mr. Kijos looks lke being the Norwegian one.

[Jetjockey145]

Things are getting more complicated by the minute.

Funny enough I cancelled my solar panel install a few months ago when the Chinese solar panel Levy was applied. Installing the panels at the new (significantly more expensive) price no longer made sense.

I have to say I cannot see who benefitted from that one. I certainly won't be paying the European prices. That's not a dig at the new rules, the maths just goes askew.

Regards, :)

[LNIDA]

I think there needs to be some balance in this debate

1. Can't really comment on the legality of the contract, but i can't imagine for one minute that NLH will get involved in some thing that is illegal it would be illogical to do so and very sort term?

2. No one really knows whether long haul low cost will work from Europe, but the fact that no one has done it successfully before means very little.

3. The NAS product is closer to legacy airline product in terms of customer service and much better than some or indeed most of the other Lo Co products on offer

4. The NLH has premium seating available and even the economy seating is better in terms of leg room than the like of say Monarch/Tui product

5. There clearly have been some start up problems and perhaps the Thai crew don't/didn't think outside the box in the way that European crew would have reacted to situations such as lack of a credit card, indeed this happens on the NAS network from time to time, remember that some of NAS so called short haul sectors run to nearly 7 hours so JFK-OSL is not much longer

6. Costs well one thing is for sure you cannot pay Norwegian or indeed Danish/Swedish employment costs, wages and employers social costs and fly Loco let alone compete with Asian carriers, I make no judgement on the rights or wrongs of Asian employment T&C's but if you allow unfettered access to Europe from the far East & Middle East, then the pressure that BA/IB KLM/AF DLH are currently seeing is only the tip of the ice berg, for joe public will look at cost and value and NAS have demonstrated in Norway that even paying all the Norwegian employment taxes that they are profitable in part because SAS is/was so inefficient.


My bet is that Long Haul will work for Norwegian and that the messy side of the contracts will be resolved and the announcement of a USA base opening this Autumn points to that, NLH have until the end of the year to sort out these issues or face a ban flying long haul out of Norway, Mr Norwegian as you call him is no fool or MOL and would much prefer to have LN on the aircraft rather than EI, Norway currently has a left centre Government more akin in some ways to an old style UK Labour Government and an election before the year out may change that, they need to get a grip on wages in Norway, it might be a rich country, but €30k a year for flipping burgers is just silly.

Thankfully its not my money in play, but fascinating all the same.....

[Jetjockey145]

Thanks LNIDA.

Very balanced if I may say so and thank you.

These are the points that I have been trying to make all along. Sooner or later these issues will be / must be sorted out.

I would be very happy to accept this job if it was offered, as I am sure the operation will succeed, and the T's & C's will improve as NLH get a grip on things. I am sure that initially there will be teething problems but they will be sorted.

I make no excuses for applying for this job no matter what people call me.
At my present position in life this contract will do me no harm at all.

In March of last year my company sent me to Oslo for a week to fly for Norwegian. It was a wet lease deal due to crew shortages at Norwegian.
We occasionally carried a NAS number 1.
I personally was impressed with what I saw. It was a good operation. Everybody was friendly and we were all treated well and looked after.
I find it hard to believe that NLH intend to purposely treat the new NLH crews any differently with the possible exception of Pension plans etc.

If they give me a chance then I am happy to join up, just like many others. The rest as they say, is an adventure!

Cheers, :)

[captplaystation]

LNIDA,

whilst I can see your point


"they need to get a grip on wages in Norway, it might be a rich country, but €30k a year for flipping burgers is just silly."


Did you check the price of a MickieD last time you were in OSL ? ( & we won't even mention what is asked for the Beer to wash it down := )

Senior CC in OSL net around 4500€/mth vs 1500€ ? in Spain, however, I have been told that renting a small 32m studio & paying service bills accounts for at least 2000€/mth in Olso vs 750? in AGP (even less in ALC ) . . . so, we shouldn't compare Apples with Oranges.

[Jetjockey145]

At the risk of repeating myself...............

2 Hotdogs and a coke cost me £20 at Oslo Airport. As for ordering evening food in the hotel, just don't go there.

If one was suddenly re-based in Oslo after Bangkok, one would get a shock. A big shock! :sad:

Urrrm? I believe that the European fleet (737) get extra salary if based in Oslo.

Hmmm. :)

[LNIDA]

I think we are saying more or less the same thing, costs in Norway dictate the salary and up to a point within country it makes no odd's it's just more noughts on the end, the problem comes when any service is either imported or more importantly exported, unless you have very very high productivity, so if your SAS paying cabin crew costs Norwegian style then your cost base will always be far higher than an Asian based carrier, fuel, aircraft lease rates, and to a lesser extent pilot wages a level playing field, taxes are not, social costs, pensions,if any are not level, so you need an edge. O'leary was not wrong when he said that only in Norway would Norwegian be considered a low cost airline, its a little tongue in cheek though, he knows that with production capped for core more or less that any growth will come a lower cost than if the same growth were to come from Scandi land.

Yes the contractors package is less than core, but it is better than Ryanair/Jet2 in money terms alone and they treat you like adults, you are in good hotels on night stops, provided with crew meals on longer duty day, which most are and the aircraft are well spec'd and of course new out of the production line, EFB makes for a very easy end of day sign out, by the time the last passenger is off so are you all signed out no walk to the crew room, just the car park.

So lets hope the NLH gets sorted, i'd certainly be interested.

[Jetjockey145]

LNIDA and Capt Playstation.

I agree with you both. You are saying pretty much the same thing.

LNIDA

I particularly agree with what you say re the aircraft and EFB's etc.
I would also agree with you on the pay front.
What I really like is the part about being treated like adults, what a blessing that would be.

I can't name names obviously, but a month ago I wrote to my chief pilot with a legitimate concern re certain policy within the company. You won't be surprised to hear that he hasn't even bothered to answer!

5 months ago I put in a claim for travelling between two bases. I was docked 5 miles in each direction for the wildest of reasons.

Any airline can treat you like a child. Full time employment, as opposed to contract work, is no vaccine. :uhoh:

[Jetjockey145]

:confused: Please enter the content?

[RTO]

as I am sure the operation will succeed, and the T's & C's will improve as NLH get a grip on things.
Do you believe in Santa as well? T&C will go down as more scabs line up as the lowest bidders. Add into the mix that Mr. Kjos aims to outsource everything and fire all the permanent pilots in order to re-hire the stupid ones on contract with outrageous low pay.

[Jetjockey145]

Hung up my stocking last night and posted my Christmas list......;)

X

[cucuotto]

Jetjockey are you sure you are not working for Rishworth ? Because you are making delusional statments about a base in JFK the sound like a bait,. On the basis of which immigration law would anyone be allowed to stay and work in the US if not a citizen. And how can you have an EASA license if you are a US licensed pilot ?
Solar panel are down 75 percent since 5 years ago and the price are stable . But European solar panel makers failed one after the other due to Chinese dumping.
Sure if you have slaves working 16 hours a day for 7 days a week for a piece of bread it is very easy to screw the market . Same for EK.. tell me. how much a baggage handler or a ramp agent makes in Dubai ? A few dollars and a bed in the desert. The solutions is not getting to their level to compete , unless you want for your kids to find a job on par with Chinese conditions when it will be their time . The solution is to impose the respect of certain rules and standards to able to export to Europe or ...to take European passengers . A Norwegian woman was raped and than arrested for having reported the rape in Dubai few days ago. Is this the level of civilization you want to get? Norwegian and Mrs Kjios are at fault not only for the outrageously "piratesque" set up they invented but because Norway is beacon of civilization and welfare oriented capitalism .They don't make any good to their country image which by the way has, thanks to oil one of the highest per capita income in the world. A Burger flipper should have no pensions ? Work is work. Slavery was abolished in the western world many years ago. But may be Kyjos real dream is to be Sheik. So may I suggest Bangladeshi cabin crew... and and Dhaka as a base,,even cheaper.

[LNIDA]

Interesting post, rant re rape aside?

My thoughts on this are that NLH thought they might get approval for Thai cabin crew, but at the minute they have an extension on approval until the end of the year during which time its business as normal. I suspect the government will up hold the ban on Thai crew, without which the costs probably don't add up against Asian carriers, so given that they have these new aircraft with lower operating costs than many on the Atlantic at least for now, then they may turn their sights on the US market, i guess they need movement on foreign ownership rules or set up a USA company much as Virgin did, but spending $bn's with Boeing will oil the wheels somewhat.

Now I'm not saying thats the final answer, but your wish for Scandi T&C's for NLH would take them down the same path as SAS, but paying normal European/US salaries would attract plenty of interest, even if its LoCo salaries and as i said before, NAS already fly some of the longest sectors anywhere in the world on 737's Oslo-Dubia & Las Palmas-Tromsoe are over 7 hours, so lets see.

[Iver]

Can someone clarify the NLH training partnership with VS? When does it start? How long does it last? Will new VS 787 FOs get experience on NLH 787s? Will new NLH FOs then get trained on VS 787s when they arrive?

Cheers

[Jetjockey145]

Hello Cucuotto

No I don't work for Rishworth, and I have better things to do than spend my time time on pprune trying to convince others to join any organisation.
My opinions are valid as they apply only to me, as I have already said many times on this thread.

It is obvious that you are so biased re this particular operation, that anybody that expresses any interest on favour immediately incurs your wrath.
Insults rapidly follow, despite you not knowing the first thing about the person you are attacking, or their particular circumstances.

Could I suggest that you give it up and go and find another thread to hijack. You have not been appointed as chief of the world Police.

If the contract in question does not do it for you then fine, I respect that, it is your right. It is not your right to tell others what to do and then start insulting them (scab) when they don't agree with you. Your general tone in your postings is not a pleasant one. Who do you think you are that you can start dictating to others how they should run their lives?
Then again, it is easy to throw your weight around when your hiding behind a keyboard!

Give it up, go away, stop depressing everyone, and call it a day. :)

[RTO]

Could I suggest that you give it up and go and find another thread to hijack. You have not been appointed as chief of the world Police.
If NLH was a US company any pilot joining them would have their name on the master Scab list, ending any jumpseating privileges and effectively ending their careers. Hopefully Europe will get more in line and offer equal treatment. Any concerns towards NLH's shameful practice is valid.

[Jetjockey145]

None of the above validates any attempt to insult another individual on this site.
Period.

Any concerns this individual may have are now done to death. Give us all a break and give it up. He can be as concerned as he likes, that does not give him the right to bad mouth anybody else that does not agree.
Free speech is one thing. Cucuotto has gone way beyond that.

Enough already.

[cucuotto]

Jet.. sorry I did not mean to offend you. But you see not everyone is for sale for peanuts Scab is not an actually an offense. It just defines a mental attitude common to the people that brought this profession to what it is now..People paying to fly, accepting unacceptable contracts, vexation, bonds. People that have been contributing to the interested attempt to destroy this job. Get a type rating.. get another free. O'Leary agenda..
But extreme capitalism is on its way out fortunately. Bad timing to start a business with this premises. Read the newspapers my friend...listen to Obama. Its time for money to pour back in the pocket of the people..not of a few greedy assholes.
RTO...:ok::ok::ok: we definetly need more of that in Europe.

[LNIDA]

Its late, actually very early where i live and I have had a few beers, no sin block of days off!! But i really don't see how the word scab can be anything other than offensive?

I just don't recognise the words Pay2Fly or MOL in anything that Norwegian does? from what i can see its an honest business that's well run, looks after its staff, pays the market rate and is very efficient, sure it get every last minute of duty time from its employee's but its not ball and chain most are not bonded and the inflow of people wanting to work here massively exceeds any out flow.

Try life out of work? any job that is paying north of €125k PA for the best office view in the world will have plenty of applicants, me amongst them! whats wrong with you people?

[maybepilot]

any job that is paying north of €125k PA for the best office view in the world will have plenty of applicants, me amongst them! whats wrong with you people?

Did I miss anything about this job offer?!?!?
Last time I check it it was almost 1/2 of what I make now net while based at home, with all the nice benefits and not commuting to/from BKK.
Have things changed in the meanwhile?

[cucuotto]

125K per annum gross for CPT means, as you will have to pay taxes and put aside 30% of that for retirement 60000 net ergo 5000 per month to fly a 787 based in Bankgok and still you have to pay for your expenses both in BKK and during layovers..For FOs we are in the range 2000 euro net minus expenses ...enjoy.. but may be for you this is just a pastime...

[Pin Head]

Anyway to get round he tax issue?

[maybepilot]

125.000 per annum means slightly over 10k gross per month so take social security and taxes away from it and best case scenario you are left with slightly more than half of it.
It would be ok for some regional turbo prop operation in your own backyard but long haul for a wannabe trans Atlantic new entry that has you based on a commuting contract in BKK me thinks its almost disgusting.
Scabs isn't an offense but a state of mind, one of those I hope I will never be in.

[captplaystation]

As the fleet expands (probably rapidly ) in the future, the lack of suitable applicants may self-regulate the situation (as may a Stateside base)

Then again, it is an open secret that a significant part of the expansion will/may be in Spain . . . how many pilots with LH experience from failed Spanish carriers (including Iberia if WW has his way ) will be happy to work for 125K gross ? I would hazard, quite a few.

How many years we waited for the golden goose of "pilot shortage" that would force Ryanair to up the bar, only to see yet another company go under & save the day for MOL.

Waiting for NLH to run out of applicants could (if you wish to participate) be a similarly unrewarding pastime. If you dont want to accept the same money flying the Plastic Fantastic on longhaul as Contractors gross on the 738 . . easy, don't apply, I didn't /won't. . nobody is forcing you :rolleyes:

[Boeing operator]

I still don't think that all 184 pilots (crewing eight aircraft) will be on contracts, and even less I think so in three years time from now when they are free from their bonds.

The question for everyone at this stage is therefore how much one wants to gamble. Do one think NLH will offer employment, and if so where (what base) and when, and under what t&c? If so, who will be offered employment since there is no seniority list in NLH (it can be seen as an up to three year trail period)?

You can note the difference in 737 Norwegian ops where pilots employed ("core") have very good conditions (I would say much better than for example SAS) compared to them on contract. As I understand, pilots are offered employment in the order they started on a contract, correct?

However, unfortunately none of us know about the future. We just have to make our bets.

[cucuotto]

What a dumb post is this? What is your point? What is the point in bouncing first class aviator ( sorry..not all pilot are the same) with such ridiculous t&cs to later offer permanent contracts. Probation is normally three months not 3 years. And for three years they'll keep you from the balls.It seems they have doubts themselves about this project. I tested the ground thoroughly and at the end it really seems they are only looking to crew the plane with cheapest human material,desperate, retired, p2f kids...

[SlowAndSilly]

BTW, all burgerflippers in Norway gets a pension plan (no such thing for contractors flying for norwegian:) )

[Boeing operator]

Cucuotto, you probably bring a great working environment into whatever cockpit you lay your hat. Good luck to you.

Anyone been to the interview yet that can share some experiences?

[Dovregubben]

Get round the tax issue, risky business these days.

Three former colleges of mine got letters from their national tax office a while ago. They where accused of not reporting correct amount taxable income. Two of the guys were given the option to pay each a fine of € 200.000,- or face criminal prosecution. Their lawyer adviced them to take the 200 K fine since the documentation provided by the tax office was massive. The documentation was released by the end user low cost airline well known across Europe.

The last college brought his case in for the court. He is fighting his case all at his own expense. He was never given the option of paying off his problem since he was supposed to pay his tax to a different country.

It is interesting to see that the airlines, when approached by the tax offices, release all info and cover their own back.

[Guttn]

So the circle is becoming complete... A high cost for an fATPL with all the trimmings, less experience, then bend over because it's time for a good old P2F scheme/scam, maybe there's a 6 month contract with or without a renewal at the end? You can't afford peanuts because you get paid less than a varte of bananas each month. Staff travel benefits? HAHAHAHA!!! Sorry mate, you're not really employed by us:ugh: BTW, the taxman called and we gave him whatever he asked for without questioning nor looking after your interests, because you're considered selfemployed. The taxman gets what he wants, because, again, bananas isn't what a lawyer wants for his services. So, again, bend over, you're on your own:yuk: But hey, at least the tickets keep getting cheaper so that all the unemployed by choice (i.e. the Norwegian social system - not talking about the airline here) get their sun n fun down in the Med twice yearly, paid by....wait for it.... YOU! :{
So, how about competing about who has the best T&Cs? Here's a thought; somebody has to offer the best - who can't/shouldn't it be YOUR airline?

[Jetjockey145]

Thanks Cucuotto, once again you throw the insults.

I am neither retired, P2F, desperate, a kid, bottom of the heap, etc, etc, etc.

I am simply looking to do something different.

Thanks. :)

[Pin Head]

I concur. Something different. If it doesn't work, move on. There will be enough 787 contract jobs by then.

While on the subject does anyone know when the upcoming courses are planned? Any new year starts?

[cucuotto]

Pin head.. yeah the will be waiting for you to screw you even more..ah ah ah!! Cannot believe how many short sighted individuals around in this business..

[LNIDA]

cucuotto

Can't let it go can you? remember you have to be in it to win it, i remember when airlines first started charging for type ratings, a guy i know who was very principled refused point blank to play that game, so spent four years flying a C152, fours years later i met him again, he was then my F/o, we did the maths (he ended up paying for a rating) and over that four years he had earned just 28K as a FI, meanwhile I had 3 years F/o money at £29k & 1 year Cpt money £54k or £141k-v-£28k, principals don't pay bills.

You've got to be in it to win

[cucuotto]

Principals always pay off in the long run and a man without any is just scum...
To pay your bills you could also sell your arse.. probably you would make even more money. Beside your FI friend had four years of instructing experience much more valuable to build airmanship than any 737 SIC time. FAA now 1500 hours before right seat of an airliner , no P2F , no bonds or **** like that. Beside..fyi I'm in it since 19 years..

[Nice24]

You are a c@ck, clogging up this forum with useless, unhelpful nonsense.

Hurry up and retire, get over yourself. :ugh:

[cucuotto]

Hey Nice you are not nice. I might be a c@ck but there is no doubt you are an arse hole. And what may seem nonsense to your hardly working neurons in you ant size brain ( not to worry..that is enough to follow f@king magenta line) make sense to me and to people with a little of self respect...left. Buzz off.

[Iver]

How about you guys grow up and focus on providing useful information?

Can we get back to the topic at hand (NLH)? :ok:

[Boeing operator]

I think the deal is ok after all, if we talk about the pay.

Who says that pilots should earn so much more money than others?

If I as FO could cash (living in Sweden) about SEK 30,000 after all social taxes and income tax is paid, that equals a salary of 45,000 on a "normal" payslip. That is a very good salary in Sweden. I am very happy with that.

That's much more than the starting salary at SAS even if you pay a few thousand to your own pension. Also, do 5 years at university in Sweden and you'll end up with much less.

I just hope to get to the screening soon. :sad:

[cucuotto]

Who tells that pilot should make more money than others? You must be joking you cannot be real. But you are right for sure you don't deserve more.

[GA_flps1]

If I as FO could cash (living in Sweden) about SEK 30,000 after all social taxes and income tax is paid, that equals a salary of 45,000 on a "normal" payslip. That is a very good salary in Sweden. I am very happy with that.

Deduct holiday (10-20%), commuting to BKK, hotel, taxi, LOL and then take into consideration that a first hand renting contract of an apartment takes 10-15 years of waiting or buying a black market one for €35k and things will not be as attractive.

Forget about getting an apartment mortgage on a dodgy contract.

If you are going to deduct expenses you have to be either employed there or set up your own business in Sweden. In either case you can forget about around 65-75% of what norwegian will pay you. Also watch out for tax evasion in Thailand. I do not recommend getting in trouble there as an expat. The prisons are not of a Scandi-standard :E

Don't be blue eyed and be very careful with what you sign.

[Jetjockey145]

To answer the question asked earlier re the screening.

Just back from the screening in Oslo on Thursday myself. :eek:

People very friendly and appear very competent. The interview is very straightforward as is the sim. There are no tricks or catches. You are well looked after and briefed. Time in the sim is a bit tight. You have to get on and work through things quickly. They are watching everything and a lot of writing goes on in the sim. Don't do what I did and treat it like an LPC, you/they don't have that sort of time.

It has been stated on here that they are looking to fill seats and the implication is that they will take anyone. I do not believe that to be the case. They have turned down a large number of people, and many have been rejected at the interview stage for having the "wrong attitude". Some of the other candidates on my screening had quite experienced friends who had been rejected by NLH. :=
I did well in all areas including the online testing, but fluffed the sim (bad day, ran out of time) so I do not expect to be offered a place. However...... The selection team treated me fairly and did nothing to trip me up or catch me out. I can honestly say that this was one of the most pleasant selection sessions I have attended. An extremely competent Long haul skipper friend of mine attended the screening the day before me. He aced the sim and his interview went very well. He is a well balanced and friendly guy. He also did very well at the online testing. He was offered a place within 48 hrs. :D
I have been told that I will know by Monday. That's pretty damn quick. None of this keeping people hanging on for weeks on end for NLH.
My experience has been that this is a very well organised selection setup.
Others may speak differently.

To sum it up best I would say that the Norwegian staff want you to pass and will fail you reluctantly. In stark contrast, other selection procedures I have seen have selection teams that want you to fail but will pass you reluctantly. :ugh:

I cannot/will not knock NLH. The T's & C's are quite clear. If you don't like them then don't apply. If you do apply they will treat you fairly at the selection.

That's all I can say. If anybody wants more detailed info then just PM me.

Kind regards. G. :)

[Boeing operator]

Cucuotto, I believe that it is a good net salary. I compare that to many other jobs in Scandinavia, including starting salary at SAS. There aren't that many airlines in Scandinavia, and very few of them offer a good starting salary. This is one of the better ones. That's how simple it is. And, as I mentioned, it is a far better salary than one you get after five years at university with the same loans as after a pilot training. Yes, you'll get better paid outside Scandinavia.

However, the setup overall is a different story. I don't support how it is presented today. But I believe there will be a change, that's why I'm interested to join this early (aircraft 3 or 4 of perhaps 20-25 in total). If you don't believe in the company, doesn't like the contract and know for sure that you won't apply, go somewhere else. I started this thread to find out about the selection and terms, not to constantly be offended by some idiot with no respect for others. I can take others opinion about the contract, but not when the criticism gets personal. How do you manage to be a part of a crew? Did you ever attend the CRM-courses? Get lost.

Jetjockey, hope for you you'll get the offer!

[Flathadder]

They want to hire you. Otherwise they have wasted their time, and time is money.
"The wrong attitude" has nothing to do with your flying skills. It´s all about wether you will put up and shut up. BK has said as much at staff meetings. Having had any kind of leadership position with a union is definitely "the wrong attitude".
BK has publicly stated that there will be no permanently employed air crew in the future, only contracted.
The T´s & C´s you see now are it. They will not improve, on the contrary management will do everything they can to lower them with time.
There are several pilot groups, all on different terms, but not necessarily speaking. Divide and conquer. Work goes to the lowest bidder.
Seniority lists are for show only, do not expect an upgrade based on one.

BK does not make a secret of this. Anybody who follows the financial news in his neck of the woods can tell you as much. If you want to know what this job is going to be like, you are wasting your time reading pprune. You should be reading back copies of Dagens Næringsliv and Finansavisen.
It´s all there, black on white, straight from the horse´s mouth.

And B.o., comparing the salary to the one at SAS (or any other legacy carrier) is ludicrous. For one your salary will increase significantly with time at SAS, and in addition you have all the regular benefits and then some.

[Pin Head]

Don't do what I did and treat it like an LPC, you/they don't have that sort of time.

Please explain more???

Yours confused.

[Jetjockey145]

Hi Pin head.

All I meant is they don't have time for 20 times round the hold while you plan and cross check to the nth degree before making your approach. They have the sim for a limited period of time and have to get through everybody in the time allotted. Decisions need to be made fairly quickly. Briefs need to be given somewhat quicker than you might on a normal non normal day.

A quick example would be landing distance required for the single engine landing. Do not sit with a pencil adding every increment for slope, runway elevation, temp, Vref at threshold etc.
Obviously, get out the table, but do the math quickly in your head and decide can it be done or not and put the book away.

As I said earlier, there are no catches. They are pressed for time and just want to see if you have the right idea. Calculating landing distance required to 3 decimal places will not impress them (well it might). All they need to know is that the runway is twice the length required for a single eng landing and then move on.

I attempted to be too clever and cover every last detail in the briefs for example and you simply don't have that sort of time. I hope this explanation helps.

Thanks B/O. I still have my fingers crossed but they have plenty of Applicants
I had my chance and didn't stay focused in the sim. :{

Regards all. :)

[Iver]

Anyone know if NLH has taken any non-widebody experienced pilots (i.e., pilots who hadn't flown for Korean, EK, QR, EVA or other similar operator)? Anyone taken with only shorthaul experience (perhaps Norwegian shorthaul or SAS)? The blinking Rishworth Aviation banner ad on PPrune focuses on "Boeing-experienced" pilots, but have they actually hired pilots with only shorthaul (i.e., 737NG only) experience?

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

I believe you need previous wide body experience for DEC. Otherwise you will be offered Relief Captain position initially. For FO, they have been assessing FR 737 guys with 2,000 hrs.

People I know who have passed selection couldn't get together the 30/40,000 euro cash bond, or got offered relief capt positions (I assume pay is lower for this role).

[Jetjockey145]

Hi Iver.

Yes they have taken non wide body B737 people for F/O position.

Hi STEXUP

Yes you are correct regarding the lifestyle on the NLH T's&C's from the point of view of commuting etc. By their own admission, it is going to be a bun fight initially. Nobody knows yet how the rosters will look, or how much time you will spend in Bangkok or Oslo etc. But in fairness, they tell you that in the interview!

I am fully aware of the setup and am prepared to live that life. I am single and my daughter has now married. I don't need a stable home life or roster. My mortgage is paid and I have money in the bank. For me the setup is acceptable. For a younger married guy or somebody with kids then things would no doubt be different. :* You want assurances about your future. I am at the stage where I don't need them. Horses for courses. You pay your money and you take your chance. If the T's & C's don't suit, then don't apply. Harsh but fair I think.
I was told about the bank guarantee and have the money sitting ready in an account. I am sure that many cannot or will not raise the cash or get a bank guarantee. :sad:

In the last 24 hrs I have been inundated with private messages from guys going to the screening. When I was at the screening plenty of the candidates had friends who were waiting to attend. Quite a few of the people I know that have attended are very experienced people with nice jobs already. For obvious reasons I cannot name names! My initial sim partner was a very senior management pilot from a very large company. Again I cannot give details for obvious reasons, but I was amazed to see him at the screening!

There is no doubt that NLH have plenty of interest in these positions. The only thing I have noticed is that a significant number of those offered positions then have second thoughts and cry off. Personally I don't understand this. There is plenty of information floating about re this job so why do people bother to apply if they are unhappy with the T's & C's? I don't get it! I would be taking the job offer and expecting the worst, if things turn out better then that would be a bonus! :D

Before anybody asks, no I don't work for NLH or Rishworth. I also don't think I will be offered a position so I have no bias or axe to grind.

Regards, :)

[Boeing operator]

Agree with Jetjockey, I just don't understand the energy people are wasting here complaining about the T&C. If the grass is not greener on the other side, don't apply and stay where you are. That's how simple it is.

But for sure it is great to hear facts about the T&C. And yes, they are not the best. But for some out there, including myself, it is better than what they have. And the T&C are better than other opportunities in Scandinavia (if one wants a connection to Scandinavia). Check out any of the airlines except the major.

No matter what CEO Kjos says, I think there will be bases in Europe in the future, and I believe that people will be employed directly with NLH. It won't happen this year. Perhaps not even next year. But within three years I think that will happen.

If I am proven wrong by then, perhaps I just change my job again. Or perhaps not. If I get hired of course ;)

[GA_flps1]

How do you mean connected to Scandinavia? they will base you in BKK afaik

[Boeing operator]

Correct, operational base is BKK.

For one, you won't have the legal right to live in Thailand, but will enter on GENDEC.

Two, it is a commuting contract, you travel for free on NLH.

Three, you also have the opportunity to have your off-days at an outstation (i.e. for example Oslo).

In effect, you will to some extent start and finish your duty in Scandinavia.

This is even more so when the airline is to expand to the west rather than to the east, out of Scandinavia.

This is one of several reasons that I think there will be a Scandinavian base in the near future (near = within three years).

[captplaystation]

Rumoured very likely long-haul bases include LGW + BCN & MAD.

The Spanish bases are apparently not dependant on whether or not IAG pull the plug on Iberia, but of course that would speed things up.

[cucuotto]

Yeah right.. and I'm Napoleon. Guys no need to pump.. no single B777 rated pilot will apply at this conditions There are plenty of opportunities at twice the money, real commuting contract benefits, real rosters. Bases...ah ah ah!! They have already got a bad reputation after two flights to JFK...and the 787 hasn't crossed the Atlantic once I would wait a bit for that.. Happy commuting with what ? Two flights a week..from Thailand ? And enjoy your days off in Oslo..at Norwegian prices ..Mc Donalds is right on the other side of the Motel. The engineering of the deal is plain wrong. Jetjockey..Boeng Operator..it is evident you are involved either with NLH or Rishworth.. so please.. do you really think all pilots are idiots ?

[Boeing operator]

Cucuotto, not everyone has such a great job as you do. Can you even for a brief moment imagine that NLH might be a better job than another?

It's so strange that you hang around here and discuss the T&C for something you don't want. Sounds to me that you are a very sad person. But of course, I'm sure you contribute to a great working environment wherever you are on duty...

[Flathadder]

Can you even for a brief moment imagine that NLH might be a better job than another?
I cannot. This is scraping the bottom of the barrel. What exactly are you doing now that makes this offer so attractive?
And more importantly, accepting these T&C´s is perpetuating these low standards, and forcing the rest of the industry to follow suit in the long run.

[Jetjockey145]

Cucuotto.

Wrong again. As stated earlier, I do not work for NLH or Rishworth. I work for a UK LoCo.

It is very strange that you appear to hang around here continually banging on about how bad this job is and giving a bad time to anyone who has even the slightest praise for NLH.

Personally I don't understand it as the thread is actually about the screening process etc. :confused: it appears you have a very nice job but lots maybe don't or just want to move on. Why can't you just leave people do what they want to do?

Hmmmm :)

[konshar]

Hi folks,

I am wondering, what kind of interview can one expect with NHL? Is it a lot of technical questions, how much you know about Norwegian etc., or is it more personal based?

And how was the simulator? :O

PM me if you want.

Kind reg, / K

[Boeing operator]

And enjoy your days off in Oslo..at Norwegian prices ..Mc Donalds is right on the other side of the Motel.

The obvious difference between Cucuotto and me is that I live in one of the Scandinavian capitals. And between the three cities, you may travel for free with NAS. Therefore I don't have to sit around at McDonald's. NLH have flights from BKK to Scandinavia basically every day. But as mentioned earlier, the contract will let you have your offdays in Scandinavia.

If one is Scandinavian, and want to have a connection to home (as discussed previously), and want to fly long haul, there aren't that many options. You could join SAS (Smaller And Smaller) and do long haul in ten years from now. Or you could join one of the charter companies (like TUI) and do long haul in ten years from now. Or you join NLH and do long haul now. You join in a company with three destinations announced already, but with many more to come. For Scandinavia this is unique.

But no matter what arguments I bring forward that this contract suits me (please note that), I am actually looking forward to Cucuotto's next arrogant post.

[Pin Head]

Any indication on start dates?

New destinations?

Planned fleet growth.

Thanks

[captplaystation]

There are two issues at play here. . . . . the 1st (as championed by cucuotto) is that the existing NAS pilots on the "Core" contract (and indeed any "Unionised" pilot from Scandinavia) are smarting at the fact that the "Big Bear" decided he could only afford/justify this project if he did it on the cheap, & has made no effort to package/offer it as
anything sweeter.

Too much O' Leary Koolade means he is totally immune to any (perhaps justified) wailing & gnashing of teeth from "K Area" players, that their expectations of participation in the expansion into long-haul , have been dealt with so off-handedly.

The other side of the coin is those (Scandis & non Scandis) who have identified this opportunity as worth "looking at", with a (guarded) perhaps slightly "Rose tinted spectacles" (?) hope, that it could/may get better in the future.

A bit like the old joke about a woman getting involved with a man convinced he will change :rolleyes: . . . and a man getting involved with a woman convinced she won't change :{ (both parties are of course subsequently proven to be totally delusional, & totally wrong)


I fear in the case of NLH, both of the factions participating here, are destined to be disappointed in the long-term.

[Pin Head]

People who did the fd ils, do you have auto throttle or is it manual thrust levers? Thanks

[Jetjockey145]

Capt Playstation

I think that is a fair assessment.

At the screening briefing (when asked about career progression) the Chief Pilot made the comment that if he took a dislike to you after joining NLH, then you may as well f**k off somewhere else as you would be finished in NLH.

I thought this was a strange welcoming speech? :yuk: In fact I was shocked.

Also, that friend of mine that got the DEC job offer within 48 hrs?
He already has a very nice job thank you. He wrote to Rishworth and asked for time to consider a few things. His job offer was immediately withdrawn! :confused:

I am beginning to wonder what sort of working environment there will be at NLH? :uhoh:

Regards, :)

[PPHOS058]

JetJockey

Can we take it from your last post that you were not offered the job. :confused:

[Jetjockey145]

All you can take from the last post ( quite clearly ) is that I have stated what has gone on. :confused:
I have told you what I saw / happened. Whether I was offered the job or not is irrelevant. The goings on mentioned above happened during / after the screening. My previous posts have been fair. I am telling you what happened to my mate. Should I not have?

As I stated in my previous post, this latest behaviour at NLH / Rishworth has come as a shock to me, a big shock! :eek: It has coloured my judgement without a doubt. For those that are interested in pursuing a job with NLH I felt this was further info that was pertinent. I cannot believe that when my mate asked for time to consider their offer, they immediately withdrew it! This raises serious concerns for me re the mind set / attitude of the employer. I have never seen a company react like this before to a simple request for "time to think".
This first hand experience, together with another posters tale of NLH getting "nasty" when he tried to clarify rosters etc has become a concern.
Very worrying, very worrying indeed! :uhoh:

Anyway, Why is it that everybody on here is looking for a catch or reason for somebody making a statement. :mad:

Frankly I have had enough of this. Pprune is obviously not the forum for somebody wanting simple information re a screening etc. Sooner or later the thread takes a nose dive when people start ranting about this, that, and god knows what else, as witnessed in this very thread.

If anybody else would like sensible info re this NLH screening then please PM me. I will not bother putting anything else here. :*

I'm off. :bored: :)

[PPHOS058]

Jet jockey

I have no intention of insulting you but you have to admit that your sudden change of attitude timed very coincidentally with the date of you getting the result of the screening. That said I agree that these threads can get dragged into slagging matches and that is not my intention. I apologise for any offence caused and realise that my post was very blunt and rude.

I think that all of your previous posts (except your most recent) have been fair and reasoned. There has been a lot of unreasoned opinion on this thread and you have provided some good information. I was simply trying to understand your sudden change of attitude.

The incidents that you quote in your previous post as, "showing a concerning attitude" are not in my opinion strange. Whilst I would admit that a chief pilot openly saying if you fall out with me you are finished is unusual, it is true of everywhere I have ever worked. If your boss hates you in any job, then good luck!
Regarding your friend needing more time to think!. Well what did he expect. If you go to all the bother of applying to a company, finding out about there T's & C's (which you have previously posted as being open for all to see) and then going to Oslo (at the companies expense) for their selection, you should be able to make up your mind about them. Needing a day or two is one thing but having to actually e-mail to ask for more time shows a poor attitude of the employee not the employer. In withdrawing their offer it proves your own point that they have plenty of applicants.

Anyway I hope you did get the job and thanks for your previous posts.

[Iver]

Anyone care to speculate how this could impact pilot basing in the long run? Does this still imply continued Bangkok basing or potential for basing closer to home? Obviously mostly speculation at this time...

See article below:



Norwegian considers basing long-haul division in Ireland
By: Michael Gubisch (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/michael%20gubisch.html) London
21 hours ago

Norwegian (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Norwegian.html) is applying for a permanent Irish air operator's certificate for its new long-haul division, as the Scandinavian low-cost carrier prepares for the first intercontinental deployment of its Boeing 787 (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Boeing%20787.html) on 15 August.


The Irish Aviation Authority has issued a temporary AOC for Norwegian's long-haul arm, which launched on 30 May, with two wet-leased Airbus (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Airbus.html) A340s, and operates flights to New York's JFK (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/New%20York%20John%20F.%20Kennedy%20International.html) airport and Bangkok (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Bangkok%20Suvarnabhumi%20International.html). But that certificate - which is being used to operate the airline's 787s (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Boeing%20787.html) - will expire by year-end.

Now, the Oslo-based carrier is "in the process" of applying for a permanent AOC in Ireland to be able to employ international crew members. The airline wants to recruit flight attendants from Thailand, which would not be possible if the aircraft were registered at home as Norwegian law prohibits the employment of staff from outside the European Economic Area.
The carrier has international pilots, but the flightcrew need to be employed on Norway-based terms and conditions. This would also become more flexible under Irish regulations.

Norwegian says that it would like to operate all aircraft from Norway, but the country's strict rules and regulations prevent it from competing against other carriers with fewer limitations. The carrier adds that it had been considering different countries to its long-haul division, including Sweden, before it eventually opted for Ireland.

Also under consideration is relocation of the long-haul division's headquarters to Ireland, as it would not be legally possible for a Norway-based airline to permanently operate aircraft under another country's AOC. The carrier insists, however, that the licence transfer to Ireland applies only to the long-haul division and not the group's short-haul mainstay.

The first of eight 787-8s ordered by Norwegian was delivered at the end of June. The aircraft has been deployed on European routes for pilot familiarisation.

Norwegian is planning to employ the type on Stockholm-Bangkok route for the first time on 15 August. The aircraft is scheduled to fly to New York the next day.

[cucuotto]

No impact.. contract is unchanged , base BKK remains at your expense. This has to do with the AOC not the operation. Norway does not accept Thai CC on board Norway registered aircraft and the EI registration has to go if they keep the Norwegian AOC. Thus the need to put Long Haul on an Irish AOC. Ireland really is the receptacle of all shady and the scummy operations in Europe.Can we kick them out?

[Me Myself]

Folks

One things really surprises me. Everyone, or almost everyone, seems to think this contract, wtih a BKK basing isn't worth looking at.
Yet, just yesterday, I received another flyer trying to sell me how nice living in BKK was !!! Yeah !! Like I've never been there !!
To keep advertising a BKK basing, they must still find the adequate number of " right " people.
Are there that many experienced pilots in desperation of finding a job ?
Reading between the lines, Norwegian short haul seems the place to be.

Having an irish AOC will also allow NLH to save a fair amount on taxes, that's a thing the Irish managed to salvage from the IMF and the European union.
Personally I'd love to take this norwegian job..........with a scandi basing. Otherwise just forget it. Good God.....as if I didn't already have my share of honking bumper to bumper traffic jam where I live !

[oceancrosser]

So Norway that is not in the EU does not accept cabin crew from outside EU/EEA, but Ireland, an EU member does.
Ireland seems hellbent on being the saviour of those intent on screwing staff to make a buck.
I could think of a few words for that, but none of them is nice.

[Boeing operator]

So Norway that is not in the EU does not accept cabin crew from outside EU/EEA, but Ireland, an EU member does.Oceancrosser, did you expect anything else from EU? The fact that these regulations are not harmonized yet, but that EU is wasting time on so many unimportant issues says a lot.

Any news from the selection; do they find enough pilots?

[captplaystation]

They (EU) are too busy harmonising whether a UK national driving a Spanish registered car speeding in France should be fined/castrated/electrocuted . . . . . . . that they have no time left to deal with whether you should have to give a credit card when arriving in hospital in Spain ( even if you pay tax in UK & have a European Health Card ) so, don't expect any decision anytime soon on anything that doesn't include filching your money.

B@STARDS !

[Boeing operator]

Passed the screening. Looking forward to it.

Would anyone inside be able to say how the roster is like now when the 787 has gone long haul?

[Iver]

Good job Boeing Operator! :ok:

[CancelIFR]

Good Job Boeing Operator,

You just part took in selling out this "profession" to the lowest bidder. Enjoy Bangkok.... :}

[cucuotto]

cancel IFR well you might have wanted to say "took part" For sure a tuc tuc.. is the only transport he will be able to afford in BKK

[ENSA]

Ah; give it a rest.

If a pilot with the proper licenses and ratings is willing to perform the job for whatever $hitty salary and conditions that are currently on offer, then guess what? Thats the going rate, boys!

A pilot's worth is defined by the moron who accepts it. That's the botton line

So until we manage to eliminate the idiots at the licensing stage, we're not going to get anywhere. And let's be honest; why on God's earth should a high-school dropout bordering alcoholic be paid anything else but minimum wage after an 18 month course in how to keep the blue sky up?

Any kid stupid enough to want to be a pilot doesn't have the critical mindset required to be one.

[LNIDA]

Its always nice to "get" a job offered and you must be pleased, i can't and wont comment on the T&C'S because i don't know whats on offer, but it must meet your expectations, there are huge advantages in getting early with any organisation particularly on a new type that will be a major player in the long haul market over the next decade or so.

It will be interesting to hear how you get on and feel free to PM me if your fed up of the bashing going on justified other wise.

Well done

[ENSA]

A lot of us have passed on this; but there's always someone willing to underbid.

As for taxes, you need to ask about the 60 day rule. Anybody planning on paying overseas tax need to consider that every time those 10 wheels touch the pavement at home, it's considered a day for tax-purposes. 4 trips a month through Europe; two calender days each time. That's 8 days a month just in layovers. Multiplied by 12 months that's 96 days a year in layovers. Never mind vacations and visits.

Which leaves you paying full income tax in Europe if you're European, regardless of where you actually live. And trust me; they have their eyes on this one.

[Boeing operator]

I'm glad that many of you seem to have better jobs than NLH. Perfect, stay where you are! I would as well.

But if you don't have such a good job (or perhaps no job at all for the moment), what should one do? Say no thanks because others on PPRUNE says it should be a better deal?

I expect to pay full Scandinavian taxes, which will be about 60% in total. That's normal up here. Too old to screw the tax man.

I have now seen the roster for some guys flying for NLH. Looks good to me. Days off in Scandinavia. That's where they live, pay taxes and spend off days. Others live in BKK, they get rostered out of BKK.

Again, I am hopeful that NLH will offer European bases wthin a few years. But not until then we will know for sure.

[ENSA]

But if you don't have such a good job (or perhaps no job at all for the moment), what should one do? Say no thanks because others on PPRUNE says it should be a better deal?

Listen, YOU have to decide what your services are worth. Nobody elsr does that for you in the contracting game. If you believe, taking into consideration your education costs, education length, job requirements in terms of your health, free time and legal responsibilities as a commercial pilot is worth X amount of euros then fine. That's your decision; that's your price to accept the legal responsibility of safely moving 300 of the companys customers from A to B.

And I'm not saying you're selling yourself short, maybe 3000€ is all a pilot is worth these days. Maybe you're right and they're overpaying the rest of us because risworth or parc are certainly not going to hire me at my expected salary level when you'll do it for much less. And experience? As a contract pilot it is your responsibility to perform the job correctly and efficiently time and time again, whether you're faced with a thunderstorm in the ITCZ, a bunch of asylum seekers 'losing' their passport in flight, a 6 hour delay at gate due to VIP movements in bangkok, a inflight diversion into china with a plane full of taiwanese, or being unavle to establish two-way radio contact with karatchi due to congestion before crossing the border. By taking the contract, you're being paid to deal with such issues and must feel comfortable in your ability to do so.

Just keep in mind that when the music stops, nobody is holding off a chair for you. The company, the contractor, the authorities, police and investigation team are all loking at you. There is an awesome amount of responsibility that comes with taking a sest on that jet; just make sure you're adequately compensated for it. Because long haul, to a even wider extent than short, involves so much more then just flying the damn thing. Christ, even monkeys can do that.

And one last thing... do not be delusional. Any european basing will trigger social benefit contributions from the company to the state of basing. Do you really believe they'll do that when there's a line of new kids ready to accept bangkok, singapore, beijing or hong kong where no such costs incur? Establishing a european base would bring Nothing but extra costs to the company with no added benefit. Google netjets, easyjet and ryanair together with social contributions.

There's an old saying that states you get what you pay for. I don't know to what extent that applies here, but I'd be surprised if there's not some truth to it.

[Boeing operator]

ENSA, you seem upset. You should be happy for two things; the job you have and that others are happy about the offer from NLH.

I've done years of long haul. Rest assured, I know what it's all about. I'm not a pilot from a narrow body low cost operator that just want to fly a big aircraft. I am in the middle of my career and this is an active choice.

Get out there and enjoy your job and enjoy your life, and don't spend it here on PPRUNE and be sad. ;)

[ENSA]

You should be happy for two things; the job you have and that others are happy about the offer from NLH.

The problem, friend, is that the job I have is under direct threat from jobs like yours. When you operate cheaply, my company can no longer compete... thereby forcing us down to your level or have no job at all. Which, as you infer, is probably making me a little upset and a little less happy than I should be. But, as I've previously stated, that is marked forces at play and proves the point that I'm overpaid compared to those willing to do it for less.

But have no doubts that in the future you yourself will be underbid. It's all math really; getting down to the lowest common denominator. The cheapest pilots set the floor for the rest of us.

Now, I don't want to spend my life commuting to Bangkok or some other pirate's cove so I figure my days might soon be numbered. And just to be clear; the only disagreement between you and I pertains to how we value ourselves. I wish you the best of luck and I have no doubt about the success of NLH. But constant jet lagged fatigue lived under the heavy weight of a 3 year renewable contract for pennies and stamps just isn't worth it for me.

As for me spending my Saturday evenings on PPrune; with your extensive experience I'm sure you're familiar with 18hour layovers in airport hotels where WiFI and the lobby bar make for the only entertainment.

[Boeing operator]

ENSA; I wish you all the best.

Regarding "the cheapest pilots set the floor for the rest of us" it can again be noted that the NLH net salary is better than the general salary in Scandinavia, better than the salary given by airlines such as SAS.

Regarding the set up by the company, it is up to EU, every member state and their regulators to act. But they can't unless they change the laws. And they have had plenty of time to do so if they so had wished. Thus, this set up is fully legal in all aspects.

[ENSA]

Regarding "the cheapest pilots set the floor for the rest of us" it can again be noted that the NLH net salary is better than the general salary in Scandinavia, better than the salary given by airlines such as SAS.

I'll take a pepsi-challenge any day of the week with you on that one.

Net salary is only a part of the costs of employing a pilot in Scandinavia, something NLH knows very well or we wouldn't be having this discussion. As you no doubt are aware, on top of net salary you must add
a) employment and social taxes
b) pension contributions
c) insurance contributions
d) social entitlement benefits such as maternity and welfare leave
e) additional crewing for sickness and not fit scenarios.
f) administration costs for Human Resources, workplace well being, employee advancement education and employee union administration costs.

In Scandinavia, it costs a company 2 million to employ a 1 million net salary employee who receives all the benefits above. By using Risworth or Parc, NLH in essence pays 1.2 million to employ a 1 million net salary employee who gets none of the benefits listed above. That's almost half the payroll expense for the company, so please spare us the net salary argument.

I completely agree; what NLH is doing is perfectly legal and you can't blame them for setting it up. My problem is that colleges are making this possible by selling themselves ridiculously cheap, foregoing all the benefits that we as a group worked 50+ years to achieve, and completely underbidding the rest of us.

But I'll give you this. There's too many pilots in the world, and an overabundance of supply drives down the prices. It's that simple, and we're all idiots for choosing this profession in the first place. At least if you have the brains to do something else.

[Boeing operator]

ENSA, I mostly agree with you and your calculations. I am very familiar with the tax system in Scandinavia. Yet I maintain that "the NLH net salary is better than the general salary in Scandinavia, better than the salary given by airlines such as SAS".

I know you will disagree, but that's the end of this discussion for me.

For your info, at least one pilot at SAS has resigned to start with NLH. Doesn't mean much, but it's very interesting. :D

Looking forward to start my new job.

[maybepilot]

So far I personally know 3 guys that got into NLH, one of them is already flying while the other two are in training.
There is a common denominator in all 3 of them even if they come from different backgrounds and countries: selfishness.
Each of them has always had a personal agenda and was always focused on their own careers and personal gains, often willing to step over others to get what they wanted.
All of them have very little or no real private life and basing, T&Cs and pilot body unity were never on top of their agenda.
Just hope the majority of the recruits isn't like them.

[Guttn]

A lot of sound agruments here, but the fact of the matter is that there is not enough positions available and too many unemployed pilots, in addition to liberalization of the profession, and last, but not least, flight schools advertising to wannabes that the industry is screaming for more pilots (yeah, right :rolleyes:) and that a job is almost assured once you get your fATPL and SSTR :mad::rolleyes::ugh: So which battle should be chosen? We who are unionized will keep fighting and trying to uphold some sort of standard whilst others try to tear them down (though I do understand the need for a job, but please try to work with us when you get that job, not against). ECA is trying to put pressure on EASA regarding, well, pretty much everything that is important nowadays, so how about supporting them in that battle? And how about getting the word out to the wannabes that the real world of aviation isn't necessarily the wonderful world of aviation that certain flight schools want you to believe. Maybe the combination of all of these things can help to put things right, but the golden days are dead and gone for sure :zzz::{. I, for one, have not and cannot encourage any wannabe who saks me for my honest opinion, to begin training towards a carreer in commercial aviation. Period.

[Iver]

Sounds like maybepilot has never seen Top Gun... :}:ok:

Most pilots have egos and many have career aspirations that exceed his. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the business. Not suggesting people should stab each other in the back, but one person's dream career is another person's nightmare. :eek:

[joe two]

Nothing but extra costs to the company with no added benefit. Google netjets, easyjet and ryanair together with social contributions.

Ensa , get your facts straight before making accusations.
easyjet are paying all social contributions and all (local) taxes in all countries on all (very good) contracts outside the U.K. as well , in e.g. France , Italy and Germany.

[ENSA]

Hey Joe2

Wind your head in and take a deep breath. What on earth are you on about?

The very fact that mentioned companies pay social taxes to the states of basing came about through rulings which, if you'd bothered to google the words instead of jumping to premature conclusions, provide presedence which others such as NLH will have to follow if they, as we were discussing before you so elequantly jumped in, were to eventually establish a european base.

Now breathe. Your 'fact' was my very point amigo.

[joe two]

Nevertheless , you're referring to easyJet and Ryanair in one line where it is obvious that Ryanair does NOT pay for local taxes and social contributions , which makes to whole difference between the two,

apart from that I think we both indeed mean the same thing :ok:

[captplaystation]

joe two,

I have never heard "(very good)" being used to describe the Easy Portugese contract, but I guess with the way of the economy there it is better than some others.

[Iver]

Looks like some new destinations for the 787s planned from all 3 Scandinavian hub cities:

Newsdesk - Norwegian (http://media.norwegian.com/en/#/pressrelease/view/norwegian-launches-new-routes-between-scandinavia-and-los-angeles-san-francisco-and-orlando-900794)

Will be a nice break from colder Scandinavian weather in addition to flights to Ft. Lauderdale and Bangkok. Oakland, California is a decent alternative from SFO - I am sure it is cheaper to operate from there which is important to their LCC model.

[cucuotto]

Fantastic news for those based in BKK to overnight in OSL with no allowance..hopefully there is 7/11 near by..

[SMT Member]

... where you might be lucky and find a 10USD hot-dog ...

[Iver]

How many 787s have NLH on order and option to date? With this sort of expansion with more new routes likely, I imagine NLH will also access lessors. 15-20 airframes at least - right? Obviously early success would mean more airframes in the future...

[cucuotto]

Well ..but not the management pilots comfortably sitting in Scandinavia on a permanent Norwegian contract with all social security and benefits...how sick is this?

[JPJP]

Iver - Oakland, California is a decent alternative from SFO

It's certainly an alternative. It's also a crime ridden cesspit. If NLH doesn't put you in a hotel outside of Oakland, you may want to consider not venturing outside. Oakland has has been consistently listed as one of the most dangerous large cities in the U.S.

Crime in Oakland, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Oakland,_California)

No U.S carrier has been able to sustain an effort to fly into Oakland solely as an alternative to San Francisco (SFO). Southwest relented and now serves both airports.

[Iver]

JP,

I believe Arkefly serves OAK from AMS using 767-300s. Yes, we all know OAK is inferior to SFO on many levels - but it is likely cheaper to operate there and it gets the passengers to the Bay Area.

If you are applying to NLH I guess you can assume you won't be staying at the Ritz on ANY layovers. Perhaps not even the Marriott. :eek:

[Boeing operator]

Does anyone know if they actually have made an order for more 787s, or not?

Ahead of the last press conference there were rumours about an order of additional 8 airframes, but that was never confirmed by the company.

[SMT Member]

Norwegian TV did a survey on ticket prices OSL-JFK, comparing SK, UA and NAX. SAS came out cheapest 7 out of 10 times, Norwegian only 1. This is after you've added food and baggage allowance to the ticket with Norwegian.

It might take the public a bit to cotton on to the fact there is only 1 ticket on each of the Norwegian flights available at the price they advertise, and that it quickly becomes more expensive than flying a legacy carrier. One can only hope, though, that it won't be too long.

[Boeing operator]

SMT Member, did the survey tell how full the specific departure was for each of the airlines? As I understand NLH flights are very full, and that the last remaining seats sell more expensive.

On the other hand, it can also be noted that the survey you refer to is very good news for NLH. If NLH have a loadfactor close to 100 per cent and are more expensive than the competitors on 9 out of 10 tickets, they must do something right. Good business for them! :D

[captplaystation]

The 2nd delivered "plastic fantastic" EI-LNB has been sent back Stateside to be completed to the standard NAS expects after going Tech every other day since delivery.. It is being replaced for 2 weeks by a Hifly Airbus. . . . Boeing have really dropped the ball with this one. I guess they are picking up the tab for the leases etc, but difficult to put a price on public perception of the reliability of your operation + there are quite a few planeloads of severely delayed/p1ssed off pax who will think twice about booking a flight on a NAS "Dream:ooh:Liner" again in a hurry.

[Iver]

Very disappointing performance by Boeing. Let's hope Boeing can finally get its act together on the Dreamliner. The pervasive Internet news and social media can really bite you in the a$$.... Quality control needs to become a higher priority these days.

[Boeing operator]

NLH keep adding new routes, yesterday made routes out of LGW public. Do they find enough pilots? Do you all think the conditions will change over time?

Did all new pilots move to BKK? Must be a difficult operation next year when they have about 15 or so routes from Europe to the US, and only two to BKK. Half the plane will be with positioning crew?

Nevertheless, I am looking forward to start. :ok:

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

How will they be crewing the LGW based aircraft? Will base on contract be BKK but rostered operational base be London? These long haul routes are going to need a lot of crew even just for one airframe.

[SR71]

Day 1: BKK-LGW
Day 2: LGW-JFK
Day 3: JFK-LGW
Day 4: LGW-LAX
Day 5: LAX-LGW
Day 6: LGW-BKK

2 days Off and repeat.

:ok:

[GA_flps1]

How is this even possible?

The big queue of people waiting to join

[de facto]

Cucotto,

If you need money go to china,you save more than 125000 eur NET /year but yet again there aint the same fresh air as Norway..:E

[de facto]

See post #165.

[Wizofoz]

Because he wasn't writing to you.

When somene writes, " hey, Cuccuto" they are writing to Cuccuto. Just because yours was the last post doesn't mean they are writing to you.

[Fitnesspilot737]

Is anyone on this thread actually working for Norwegian on the 787? If so, could you PM me please. Thank you.

[de facto]

Pupocisiliani,

I refered to post #165 cause it was a post by the person i was responding to.
Now the post i was actually responding to was # 162 if you want to be clear:E
....and implying I was cucotto in disguise...which I'm not.

What are you smoking??:hmm:

[Boeing operator]

Hi all

The online magazine check-in.dk has come across a copy of the employment contract for NLH pilots, and has written a couple of articles about the content the past couple of days (in Danish).

Who knows, maybe there will be changes if the mainstream media begins to report about it as well..

The problem remains that you (as pilot) have no social benefits anywhere - in Singapore, Bangkok or Europe (if you live there). Income tax you pay where you live, but that doesn't give you social benefits.

I hope and think it will resolve itself within a few years.


Sådan er Norwegian?s langrute-piloter ansat (http://www.check-in.dk/newselement.cfm?nNewsArticleID=82920)

Kun barsel til Norwegian-piloter med Singapore-børn (http://www.check-in.dk/newselement.cfm?nNewsArticleID=82963)

[LRpilot]

Ho guys,
anyone with any news on what going on here?
Are they hiring, interviewing?
I got the feeling the company doesn't have really clear how to manage the future expansion.....
Can someone (via pm if you wish) tell me what about actual rosters, chance of commuting and command?
Cheers!

[de facto]

The key is to know someone from within otherwise join the looong queue:E

[Iver]

Some people set career goals and want to fly the latest and greatest. Others couldn't care less and would prefer to stay in the motherland...

If you really, really, really desire to fly a 787 some day, and NLH is too competitive, here is another option (from their website) so long as you bring a lot of suntan lotion :cool::

QR3950 - First Officer B777/B787

Organisation:Qatar Airways
Job Function:Flight Deck Crew

Division:Flight Operations
Employment Type:Full Time - Permanent

City:Middle East | Qatar | Doha
Last date of application:16-Mar-2015


http://careers.qatarairways.com/qatarairways/Images/organizations/817.jpg
Qatar Airways
Welcome to a world where ambitions fly high
From experienced pilots to dynamic professionals embarking on new careers, Qatar Airways is searching for talented individuals to join our award-winning team.

We take pride in our people—a dynamic and culturally diverse workforce is essential to why we are one of the finest and fastest growing airlines in the world.

We offer competitive compensation and benefit packages and Doha based employees receive a range of allowances and enjoy a tax-free income.


About Your Job:

Qatar Airways is currently in need of type rated and current Boeing First Officers that would be able to join us in 2014. You would be joining the worlds best airline as our fleet and route network grows and expands on an unprecedented scale over the coming years.

You will be based in our Doha hub where you and your family can experience an enviable expatriate lifestyle where the sun always shines and the beaches beckon! Only a 6 hour flight from Europe, the sub continent and North Africa, Doha is a great centrally located hub to explore and experience many new places and cultures.



About You: To apply for this opportunity in our Flight Deck team you must meet the following minimum requirements:
1. A Minimum of 1,000 hours in one of the following categories:

Multi crew, multi engine jet aircraft
Command Turbo-Prop above 20.000 kg MTOW
High performance military jet
2. Be type-rated and current on the B787/B777/B767/B757/B737NG or B747-300-400-800 with a minimum of 500hrs on type.


Note: you will be required to attach the following:
1. Resume / CV
2. Passport copy
3. Licence, Valid Instrument Rating, ICAO English Level
4. Valid Medical
5. Last 2 full pages of log book

[Boeing operator]

Seems like a lot of things happening in the company at the same time.

Concerning crews, it is mainly the rumour about European bases as from next year (yes, they figured out that not everyone can be based in BKK when most flights will be from Scandinavia/LGW to the west).

Also read in media that they are in talk with Boeing about a few more 789, but -9 this time. If they can find the slots they should be coming in from 2015.

Company hiring a lot of pilots at the moment to fill the four aircraft coming first five months 2014.

[ASH 25]

Hi,
are there any Germans who have singed this contract?

[captplaystation]

Saw a guy on beach hold a cigar up to it. . . .didn't hang around to see if it caught fire , or was merely singed ;) guess he wasn't impressed by it then :=

[Iver]

1. How many pilots now on the 787 fleet and how many expected over the next year?


2. Are the Virgin Atlantic pilots still providing "long haul guidance" with instructor pilots:


Newsdesk - Norwegian (http://media.norwegian.com/en/#/pressreleases/norwegian-and-virgin-atlantic-with-dreamliner-cooperation-864881)


3. Also, is the main pilot domicile now Bangkok or Singapore? What's the status on pilot domiciles?

[BaconRash]

There was a course in Jan, Feb,Mar and April for the next four aircraft....next courses later in the year. I was looking at this seriously but struggling for quality information as there are very few people posting here who work for the company.

Eventually got access to several guys (in all three seats) and it seems to depend on what you are looking for. The upside is you get to fly a shiny new 787....and get lots of time off when it goes tech. The downsides are that the Bangkok base plan has a number of issues.

The main two being
- This is not going to be a tax free gig.
- They cannot support the block of eight days off....this is a major concern for several of those I spoke to who saw this as one of the major benefits of the contract. That said some of the younger guys are not fussed about the second issue and seem quite happy to be spending their time off wherever they are rostered (apart from Oslo...damn cold & expensive).

Didn't want to look at China but Tax free $180,000 a year has to be the way ahead. That said go into that with your eyes open as the Chinese have their own way of doing things.

[Mister Geezer]

Iver

People work for Qatar Airways because they have to and not because they want to. We are all aware of what they are offering and for many, it is at the back of ones mind as the last resort if all else fails.

[NGDRIVER]

I have been offered a job at NLH to start later this year, can anybody out there who currently works for them, explain how I would meet the tax compliance requirements of the contract.

Can I set up a company and pay taxes in my tax jurisdiction? or do I have to pay tax on a personal income tax basis in my tax jurisdiction?

Any useful information would be greatly appreciated.

[Boeing operator]

NGDRIVER, read what is stated earlier in this thread about taxes.

You pay your own taxes. Set up a company not accepted, but personal income basis.

You pay taxes where you reside. No taxes in Singapore or Thailand (unless you live there of course).

If you live in Scandinavia you pay a lot of taxes :{

[lgw_warrior]

Hello, I've looked through this thread and I'm wondering if anyone in the UK took the job,if so what's the situation with the tax? How is the roster? And what kind of money are we talking about after tax paid (here?thai?), I've been looking at this opportunity for a while and have applied,but would like to know a bit more before I get too excited!

I'm currently a uk based captain,6500 hrs and looking at the relief captain role as I don't have 500hrs wide body experience.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[BrianM]

Any thoughts on Norwegians' attempt to circumvent tax laws? US airlines and unions are united against NLH efforts to obtain flight permits. I would think it would be the same for European pilot unions?