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Uncle Fred
14th Feb 2013, 23:39
Did I miss this on another thread? If not, I am rather surprised that no one has yet commented. What happened here? I certainly hope we do not have another OJ situation brewing.

Oscar Pistorius to face murder charge over girlfriend's shooting | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/14/oscar-pistorius-murder-girlfriends-shooting)

Cacophonix
14th Feb 2013, 23:43
I raised it in Afrikaans on the gun thread.

SA has more guns per square mother [email protected] than the USA.

Give an angry woman or a man easy access to a gun and a homicide is imminent.

Caco

Milo Minderbinder
14th Feb 2013, 23:44
Well, so far it appears that his defence doesn't have a leg to stand on

Cacophonix
14th Feb 2013, 23:45
Forget the gun, you think he would have used a blade!

Caco

Andratx
15th Feb 2013, 00:02
Roses are red,
Violets are glorious,
Don't try to surprise
Oscar Pistorius

Cacophonix
15th Feb 2013, 00:10
In truth there are many sad accidental shootings in my homeland. Let justice prevail and let's us reserve judgement on Mr Pistorius.

Caco

Prazum
15th Feb 2013, 00:23
I heard he was leg less at the time

Cacophonix
15th Feb 2013, 00:46
Martin

Over the years I have rows with ex wives and partners and believe me if anyone had a gun I would have been shot.

He shot her man! Sad but true.

Caco

hei yu
15th Feb 2013, 01:29
I had heard that he was very highly sprung

Cacophonix
15th Feb 2013, 01:37
Tis sad, but the comments here make me laugh! ;)

Good in the spirit of JB.

Caco

haughtney1
15th Feb 2013, 05:03
I think that poor old Oscar form has slipped...and he now wants to go to the Olympics as a pistol shooter.....:E
hat coat....taxi!

Erwin Schroedinger
15th Feb 2013, 05:37
Not to worry. He'll bounce back.

Mr Optimistic
15th Feb 2013, 06:25
A slightly different take on the above.

Roses are red, violets are glorious. Never sneak up on Oscar Pistorius!

Lon More
15th Feb 2013, 06:52
Probably not since this:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/Badyin/funnies/unfortunate1_zpse84b0c86.jpg

has there been an advert which has turned out to be so ill advised……

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/Badyin/funnies/unfortunate2_zps6629e793.jpg

Alloa Akbar
15th Feb 2013, 07:23
The original suggested defence was that he was acting in self defence at a surprise intruder.. Call me cynical, but the only guy I can think of who would wake from his slumber, grab a gun in the dark and slot the alleged intruder 4 times and not miss is James Bond.. the rest of us would probably miss with at least 1 or 2 rounds.

probes
15th Feb 2013, 07:31
yeah, Lon, things like this make one wonder if there isn't more than meets the eye in this universe.


P.S I hadn't seen this pic, really impressive - just as a pic, I guess. (The expression on their faces is terrific - didn't want to paste a larger version here, though.)

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcST1aG_uvbecB77JvP0WmhnZjDTlboFmIFYiMk9Xtf PfDFGu1N7xw

probes
15th Feb 2013, 09:07
Judge Nair uses phrase "a person charged with premeditated murder"
Oscar Pistorius in court charged with murder of Reeva Steenkamp - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/15/oscar-pistorius-reeva-steenkamp-court)

B Fraser
15th Feb 2013, 09:57
The court will proably find that he's unstable.


A beer mat under his left foot will sort that out.


:oh:

stuckgear
15th Feb 2013, 10:03
Oscar certainly brings new meaning to taking the girlfriend out on valentines day.

Lon More
15th Feb 2013, 11:04
A beer mat under his left foot will sort that out.

or a .45 lead weight inserted behind the left ear

Mr Optimistic
15th Feb 2013, 14:40
'Oscar certainly brings new meaning to taking the girlfriend out on valentines day.'

:D:D:D

hellsbrink
15th Feb 2013, 14:44
I saw a report that said he will still be at the Paralympics in Rio 2016.

He's been pre-selected for the 100m, 200m and 10m Running Target events

Uncle Fred
15th Feb 2013, 18:43
Well, I guess it was just an accident. He and his family said it was not a murder so that pretty well sews it up does it not?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/sports/oscar-pistorius-reeva-steenkamp-court-bail.html?_r=0#commentsContainer

Obviously something went seriously, and sadly, awry...

Mallan
15th Feb 2013, 18:53
I have heard that it was because she bought him a pair of socks for Valentines!!

unstable load
16th Feb 2013, 05:15
SA has more guns per square mother [email protected] than the USA.
Caco, jealousy makes you nasty....

Over the years I have rows with ex wives and partners and believe me if anyone had a gun I would have been shot.
I have had similar rows.
I have one and had up to six guns and NO-ONE has been shot.
The argument that having guns makes you predisposed to shooting people
is so tired, it's almost comatose.

Cacophonix
16th Feb 2013, 05:24
I have one and had up to six guns and NO-ONE has been shot..

Good to know you are a stable soul Unstable ;)!

If one is inclined to violence, then access to a gun can make it possible to wreak immediate havoc as may have occurred in the Pistorius case.

Let justice prevail. He may be innocent but somehow it doesn't look good for the blade guy.

Caco

Tankertrashnav
16th Feb 2013, 09:07
I have guns and occasionally Mrs TTN and I have a row.

By the time I went and got the two keys to the gun cabinet (kept in separate hiding places) and opened the cabinet, then remembered that the cartridges are kept in a separate locked box, I'd have forgotten what the argument was about !

Having a loaded pistol to hand probably wasn't the best plan for someone like Oscar who was known for having a very short fuse.

unstable load
16th Feb 2013, 16:29
Good to know you are a stable soul Unstable http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif!
Funny, that..... It was meant to be "Mentally Unstable Load" but was too
much of a handful to type, so I shortened it....:hmm:

anotherthing
16th Feb 2013, 17:54
It's not the first time a bloke has gone to bed legless and shot in his girlfriend's face

cavortingcheetah
17th Feb 2013, 07:54
The Pretorius family have done an excellent job of protesting vigorously at the outrage committed against Oscar by his being accused of murder for what was just a terrible accident. The Steenkamp family and any grief potential there has been neatly sidestepped by a publicity machine which has quite possibly already achieved its presumed goal of requiring an acquittal for the accused.

Tableview
17th Feb 2013, 08:21
I think one might expect, under the terrible circumstances, that the family would show solidarity with the accused. It would be abnormal if they didn't.

I don't think he's innocent, and I don't think he'll get any preferential treatment because of who he is, in fact the opposite is more likely to be the case given the racist nature of South Africa's new 'democracy' and the fact that he is from a wealthy Afrikaans family.

Solid Rust Twotter
17th Feb 2013, 08:33
Couple of folks with similar disabilities. Both of them are humble, polite and easy going, in stark contrast to the spoiled brat behaviour of slebs who haven't achieved anything near what these two guys have done.

DaveBarr.com (http://www.davebarr.com)

Home - Rory Mackenzie (http://www.rorymackenzie.co.uk)

Brian Abraham
17th Feb 2013, 12:42
Interesting stories coming to light. Shot in the hip in the bedroom and ran to the toilet where she was shot three more times. Blood covered cricket bat, and supposition of rage caused by steroid use.Bloodied cricket bat found at Pistorius home: report MYREPUBLICA.com - News in Nepal: Fast, Full & Factual, POLITICAL AFFAIRS, BUSINESS & ECONOMY, SOCIAL AFFAIRS, LIFESTYLE, SPORTS, OPINION, INTERVIEW, INTERNATIONAL, THE WEEK news in English in Nepal (http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=50125)

probes
19th Feb 2013, 09:18
Looks (provided the reported shot in the hip is really so) as if he wanted to make her legless as well. :sad:

Craggenmore
19th Feb 2013, 13:22
1. Pretty small town model looking for exposure and a quick ascent up the fame ladder.
2. Dates Olympic star pre London 2012.
3. Not really interested in the double amputee (what happens after retirement?)
4. Double times with non-amputee sportsman, unknown to OP.
5. OP reads iPhone messages on Valenties Day and discovers the truth.
6. Loses the plot after a boozy steriod filled evening.
7. Kills g/f

Remove the fame 'wow' factor. This happens every week all round the world.

Capetonian
19th Feb 2013, 13:27
We can all speculate, but at least let's do so based on correct facts.

G-CPTN
19th Feb 2013, 18:38
How did OP get from his bed out onto the balcony (to retrieve the 'fan') then get into and out of the bathroom (not the toilet) then retrieve his pistol from under his bed, then shoot through the toilet door before putting on the lights and putting on his prosthetic limbs?

lexxity
19th Feb 2013, 20:50
He has partial mobility on his stumps. The guardian coverage from today has been excellent.

anotherthing
19th Feb 2013, 22:37
He is claiming his bedroom was pitch black and that he thought his girlfriend was still in bed (the bed he himself got out of).

How big is his bed and would you not rouse your partner if you believed you had heard intruders?

Sounds like complete bolleaux to me...

owen meaney
19th Feb 2013, 22:39
His statement to court says:
From the balconey to the bedroom to get the gun from under their bed.
From the bedroom and then shoot throught the toilet door.
On his stumps.
There in seems to be the problem in his story, he didn't check Reeva when he got the pistol.

G-CPTN
19th Feb 2013, 22:52
"During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.
I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps. I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.
I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.
I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window.

As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.

I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.

When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open.

I think I must then have turned on the lights.

I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive."
From (and more at):- Oscar Pistorius defence statement | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/19/oscar-pistorius-defence-statement)

reynoldsno1
20th Feb 2013, 00:16
During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.
I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps. I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.

... and no bars across the sliding door (plus blinds, plus curtains) that were wide open before you woke up ...
I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.
So you expected both the intruder and Reeva to be able to hear you... she was awake in the toilet, but didn't respond to your screams?
I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked
which you locked on the way out, right?
Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light
How do you know? You just said the door was locked and you couldn't get back in? ....
When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed.
See above
:suspect:

anotherthing
20th Feb 2013, 00:24
Pitch black room, yet he manages to navigate across it to get a gun from under his bed... whilst doing this he was unable to ascertain if Reeva was in the bed.

Utter rubbish

Uncle Fred
20th Feb 2013, 02:25
Another troubling matter...

It seems that young Oscar and this young lady were not joined in the bonds of Holy Matrimony. Yet is seems that they were is a state of dress that, in the olden days, would have been called "undress." Certainly not in attire that a gentleman would have worn as he, for example, presented himself at his club--nor the lady in attire that would have been suitable for her social gatherings. No where in the narrative did I read mention of there being a chaperon present...ah when Cupid fires his arrows what conflagrations can sweep the senses toward errant and rash acts.

Richo77
20th Feb 2013, 03:29
Reeva was shot in the hip according to several reports i have seen. According to Oscar's story she was in the bathroom with the door locked. Odds are then she was sitting down, and as she hadnt heard Oscar "scream for her" then she was still sitting down. Depending on where the throne is, that makes it a hell of a hard target doesnt it? The hip i mean.

Mac the Knife
20th Feb 2013, 06:00
Oscar's story smells like a truckload of herring.

Still, you never know - jocks are notoriously dim.

I expect, like Hansie, the Devil made him do it....

Mac

:(

Goes to show that no matter how pretty she is, someone, somewhere, is tired of putting up with her shit.

probes
20th Feb 2013, 06:07
yeah. Like some crime fiction - when you read it, it's ok, but when you think a bit, several things don't make sense. Like - why would she go to the bathroom in pitch dark. Not to wake her boyfriend from sweet Valentine dreams? Or why would a person so aware of crime fall asleep with the sliding doors open... it's also scary to think one would shoot first when hearing a noise behind a closed door.

lonkmu
20th Feb 2013, 07:50
And the Oscar goes to............


Jail

stuckgear
20th Feb 2013, 08:11
it's ironic isnt it the fawning media adoration of a person and then the shock-horror when they person turn out to be a grade A a-hole..

OK, OP talented sports person, that doesn't prevent him from a trigger happy rage merchant, that ceased the life of a young person just starting out on the journey of life.

lexxity
20th Feb 2013, 08:39
Out of interest, I was up with my boys at oodark a clock last night, not once did I turn a light on, but I got medicine out and measured and put away, both boys comforted and put to bed, used the loo and went back to bed and turned my audiobook back on. All in the dark. I think we have a physical memory for where things are.

Not excusing OP at all, just saying how he could have moved around with the light off.

Seldomfitforpurpose
20th Feb 2013, 08:44
that doesn't prevent him from a trigger happy rage merchant, that ceased the life of a young person just starting out on the journey of life.

The inevitable consequence of mixing guns and unstable people under one roof is that some poor innocent ends up dead.

uffington sb
20th Feb 2013, 08:45
Shirley there must have been some light, house security lights and neighbours lights. It's never that dark unless your out in the bush on an overcast and moonless night.

Tableview
20th Feb 2013, 09:07
I don't think any of us know how we would react under the stress and terror of a perceived intrusion by an armed assailant - and in SA you can take it for granted that they would be armed and ready use fire power.

It is perfectly feasible to get out of bed in the dark and not know whether your partner is there or not, and it is perfectly possible to manoeuvre round a familar room in total darkness.

There are aspects of his story which sound like BS, but there are also a lot of contradictions in the 'facts' as presented.

Whether he shot Reeva Steenkamp deliberately or not remains to be seen, but I think one has to try to feel the horror this young man must be going through. He's not exactly a hardened criminal (however, illegal fire arms possession and use of performance enhancing drugs have been mentioned).

camel
20th Feb 2013, 09:21
so the plot thickens like some agatha christie novel ...must admit this one has me errrrrrrrm stumped for an answer.:suspect:

stuckgear
20th Feb 2013, 09:23
There are aspects of his story which sound like BS, but there are also a lot of contradictions in the 'facts' as presented.



well there is that TV and the SA police of recent haven't exactly earned themselves a stellar reputation in terms of handling evidence, facts and crime.

aviate1138
20th Feb 2013, 10:17
If, as an eyewitness has asserted, the couple were rowing for an hour beforehand and then shots were fired and there have been previous visits by the local constabulary to quell screaming and shouting I find it hard to find for the defendant........


Performance enhancing drugs do make most imbibers very aggressive IMHO

With his overseas accounts I wouldn't grant him bail if I were the judge........

Solid Rust Twotter
20th Feb 2013, 10:24
I get the idea police ineptitude is going to turn this into another OJ farce.:hmm:

toffeez
20th Feb 2013, 10:26
Maybe she was shagged out and escaped to rest in the bathroom.

I mean, a guy with two stumps ...

Shack37
20th Feb 2013, 10:37
I get the idea police ineptitude is going to turn this into another OJ
farce.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif


Oscar Pistorius murder charge: latest - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/9881941/Oscar-Pistorius-murder-charge-live.html)

Certainly does and some details leaked earlier, bloody cricket bat and fractured skull, not true.

TWT
20th Feb 2013, 10:52
08.31 Oscar Pistorius, who has begun to cry again, had a licence for the gun he killed Ms Steenkamp with. But there was an unlicensed 38mm pistol in the safe in his bedroom.

38mm pistol ?:p

dead_pan
20th Feb 2013, 12:39
I do find it bizarre this case is already being heard in court (can't be ar5ed reading the entire thread to see if anyone else has noted this). I mean, the poor girl's only been dead just over a week. It hardly give either team much time to prepare their cases.

Like the humour BTW. Was wondering whether his 'third' stump would come into play given his state of, erm, excitement? May explain why he was able to move so fluently...

Tableview
20th Feb 2013, 12:44
This is not the trial - that is not expected to take place for a good couple of months - this is a bail hearing.

dead_pan
20th Feb 2013, 12:49
38mm pistol

Bl00dy hell, those South Africans aren't to be messed with!

dead_pan
20th Feb 2013, 12:59
this is a bail hearing

OK. Is it normal for so much evidence to be discussed in open court at such hearings? This could jeopardise his chances of a fair trial if so much is placed in the public domain.

Bail hearings in the UK tend to be low key and minimal in duration - little if any of the key evidence is presented by either legal team.

B Fraser
20th Feb 2013, 13:11
The police are beginning to look like a bunch of monkeys. The "steroid" became "testosterone" which was in fact, something called "testo compositum coenzyme" which is a legal herbal remedy.

:ugh:

Captivep
20th Feb 2013, 13:25
A key point is that, even assuming an intruder has locked himself into your toilet (a separate room in the bathroom) to blaze away with four shots without seeing him would also be murder - you cannot possibly argue that you're in immediate fear of your life when (a) you don't really know whether someone is there, (b) you have no idea whether they're armed, (c) you have a gun pointing at the intruder's only means of escape and (d) you have a girlfriend who can phone the police...

camel
20th Feb 2013, 13:36
Q:if you are in bed with your loved one ....you then go to the bathroom ...would you really lock yourself in the toilet ...unless you are afraid of something bad happening ?

A: i dont think sooooooo

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Feb 2013, 13:41
Worrying that the Police do seem to be unbelievably incompetent.

Truth is what the victim's family deserve, but the almost complete collapse of Police credibility at such an early stage is ridiculous.

As for OP's statement of events, all of it may be true. None of the flaws suggested herein stand up to cold logic, or can be proven. However, the evidence in the house revealed thus far also matches, to absolute perfection, a scenario of argument, rage, escaping that rage to the only room with a lock (the toilet), battering the door down and shooting (or shooting, followed by battering the door down; bullet holes in the door, or none, should verify the order).

As so rightly pointed out, the OJ Simpson case all over again.

Solid Rust Twotter
20th Feb 2013, 13:48
If nothing else, hopefully inept policing will be highlighted and perhaps shame the govt into getting their act together to sort out the seriously high levels of crime the average SA citizen has to deal with.


Won't be holding my breath though.

dead_pan
20th Feb 2013, 13:48
you cannot possibly argue that you're in immediate fear of your life when .... (b) you have no idea whether they're armed

I think you possibly could. Even here in the UK I would be partially in fear of my life if I heard someone 'unknown' moving around my house.

if you are in bed with your loved one ....you then go to the bathroom ...would you really lock yourself in the toilet ...unless you are afraid of something bad happening

On come on we've all had nights like that, when that dodgy kebab or whatever has wreaked havoc on our digestive system. You wouldn't want your loved one walking in on you when in that foul condition.

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Feb 2013, 13:51
Locking the door can be an automatic part of simply going to the loo.

I certainly do it, without thinking, even when everyone else is out of the house.

Captivep
20th Feb 2013, 13:54
You misunderstand my point, I think. If you know that the "intruder" (who you don't know is armed or not) is shut in a room and you have a gun pointing at the only way out of that room it's hard to argue that the acceptable thing to do is shoot into the room.

Tableview
20th Feb 2013, 13:56
Amongst the other conflicting points, it is not clear to me if the toilet itself is in a separate room. If so, it would be a slighlty unusual, although not improbable, arrangement.

As far as the level of detail normally involved in a bail hearing, I'm happy to say that my contacts with the SA legal system have been so limited I really don't know. The volume of interest that this has attracted is unprecedented.

I am also curious as to the definition of 'pre-meditated'. If I have a dispute with 'X' in the morning, go out and buy a gun, and walk round to his home and shoot him later in the day, then clearly it's pre-meditated. If, in the heat of a dispute, I grab a gun which is on the table next to me and shoot him, it probably isn't. Somewhere between those two extremes is the boundary. What is it?

The police are beginning to look like a bunch of monkeys.
'fraid that's how it is!

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Feb 2013, 13:58
...it is not clear to me if the toilet itself is in a separate room


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02486/oscar-pistorius-ba_2486955c.jpg

Octopussy2
20th Feb 2013, 14:02
dead pan - you're correct, you could legitimately argue that. It would then be for the jury to decide whether you acted reasonably in all the circumstances.

Possibly in the UK, where you would have little/not particularly great reason to suspect an intruder was armed, the conclusion of the jury may be different to in S. Africa, where I understand the chances of the intruder being armed are very much higher.

Until I heard today's evidence, I thought it was very likely to be murder; however, it seems the prosecution have over-egged their evidence and the defence's rebuttal of it has been robust and effective.

That said, several things don't really add up for me (the locked door, the fact he says he did what he did in pitch darkness - there's a lot you can do without turning the lights on, as Lexxity pointed out, but generally only when there's some residual light around. As I understand it, he said the room was totally dark, hence he didn't notice that she wasn't in bed).

Also, if you wake up in the night and you know someone's in the house with you when you hear a noise, isn't it human nature first to assume it's that other person, not some random intruder? It can't be the first time she'd got up to go to the loo...

Tableview
20th Feb 2013, 14:08
Thanks Erwin, that is what I was looking for, I saw it briefly on TV but couldn't make it out.

The 'bathroom' in question then is presumably the one on the left of the diagram (the one bottom right belonging to another bedroom). I'm not familiar with architect's plans, but there seems to be a door (the two dotted quarter circles each being a door?) between the main area of the bathroom, and the toilet and shower?

Can someone confirm?

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Feb 2013, 14:11
You misunderstand my point, I think. If you know that the "intruder" (who you don't know is armed or not) is shut in a room and you have a gun pointing at the only way out of that room it's hard to argue that the acceptable thing to do is shoot into the room.

Not sure who you're aiming that at, but I agree with your point!

However, looking at it another way, OP reckons he'd already given the game away to 'the intruder' by shouting, so he could have feared that his imagined, potentially violent 'intruder' would therefore come out shooting. OP also claimed he was in a panicked state of mind. I guess that might at least reduce a murder charge to something less, or enable complete acquittal.

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Feb 2013, 14:14
Tableview

In most floor plans, doors are represented by a straight line (representing the door itself, viewed from above) and an arc, centred a the hinge line, to show the sweep of the door.

uffington sb
20th Feb 2013, 14:28
TV . Here's a clearer diagram for you.

BBC News - Pistorius witness 'heard shots, screams, more shots' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21514428)

Octopussy2
20th Feb 2013, 14:28
...It depends on the order of the gunshot and the shout, doesn't it? Because if he says he called out first, then surely we might expect Reeva to have shouted back along the lines of "It's me in the bathroom, you pillock".

probes
20th Feb 2013, 14:32
dunno. Must be devastating for everyone emotionally, but... why did he come up with his story only after several days? Also it's one of the first rules of first aid that one should not carry nor drag anyone anywhere when seriously injured (not to do any more harm). People panic, of course, but still.

stuckgear
20th Feb 2013, 14:50
If nothing else, hopefully inept policing will be highlighted and perhaps shame the govt into getting their act together


HAHHAHA !

SRT.. i only have to point you at your own posts in the SA politics thread regarding the gov, the police and ineptitude..


:}

stuckgear
20th Feb 2013, 14:55
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02486/oscar-pistorius-ba_2486955c.jpg

so our intrepid athlete leaves the door of the balcony open and then get concerned because he fears someone is trying gain access via the window of the crapper, despite the balcony being wide open.

*cough*

and besides the property itself is in a gated and secure complex.

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Feb 2013, 14:56
Because if he says he called out first, then surely we might expect Reeva to have shouted back along the lines of "It's me in the bathroom, you pillock".

Then again, if you're an unarmed woman locked in a loo in the middle of the night and you hear your partner shouting at an intruder, would you stay put, or unlock the door and come out?

I'd stay put.

...and keep quiet, too, in case my partner came off worst.

Although, speaking for myself now, I'd stay put, keep quiet and be grateful I was on the loo. :\

...apart from which, no intruder would survive against er indoors. She'd sort him out, big time.

Octopussy2
20th Feb 2013, 15:03
:D Like your style, Mr. ES. And I agree your scenario is plausible.

stuckgear I would completely agree with you if the balcony door/window was open when he went out to get the fan. However, that's not clear - as I read it, he said he went out onto the balcony, got the fan, came back in and closed the door/window. He doesn't mention whether the door was open or shut. If he said open, yes, I'd completely agree.

And it's odd to claim to be security conscious and leave your balcony door open when you know there are ladders about. I certainly wouldn't have done that in London.

teeteringhead
20th Feb 2013, 15:20
But If you "know there are ladders about", don't you just get 'em moved???

Tableview
20th Feb 2013, 15:32
Just watching some of the coverage from the court proceedings. It makes me sick to see those awful camera-toting vultures in a feeding frenzy intruding on peoples' grief and misfortune.

dead_pan
20th Feb 2013, 15:57
Anyone know what the broken lines in the bathroom on the floorplan represent?

If he suspected someone was trying to gain entry through the toilet window, I wonder if he could have seen anything from that large window in the bathroom itself. Assuming the toilet window opens outwards, he may well have been able to see the open window frame from the bathroom.

Prosection have well and truly bungled this already.

G-CPTN
20th Feb 2013, 16:08
Anyone know what the broken lines in the bathroom on the floorplan represent?
Waste-water drainage pipe-runs (from hand-basins, shower and bath).

bluecode
20th Feb 2013, 16:08
It's already clear he's going to get off and spent the rest of his life expressing his regret for his 'mistake'. Unless the prosecution case can be firmed up. However this is very early days and is not the trial but merely a bail hearing. So there's hope.

His story is clearly made up. It is stretching credulity to breaking point to believe the sequence of events as he describes. If he was drunk it might be plausible but nowhere is that suggested.

But the forensic evidence should be a clincher.

We can expect similar tactics to the OJ Simpson case. He could easily walk, no pun intended.

cavortingcheetah
20th Feb 2013, 18:12
Onto the balcony, bring in fan, hear noise, go across bedroom, down corridor past built in cupboards, enter bathroom, put four through the door.
Isn't it material who was killed? Whoever might have been in the lavatory was the victim of a premeditated attack by a man with a gun who fired four times. That's getting a tad close to what some might call murder rather than an accident? He'd have been deaf for a while afterwards as well, after four shots in the confined and echoed space of a tiled bathroom.

dead_pan
20th Feb 2013, 18:12
But the forensic evidence should be a clincher.

How so? He has admitted shooting her.

Witness statements will be key along with any CCTV footage. If there is evidence of an argument for a while before the time of shooting then his story will really look weak.

Tableview
20th Feb 2013, 18:13
His story is clearly made up.

Lovely unbiased viewpoint.

cavortingcheetah
20th Feb 2013, 18:15
But it is clear that his story is made up.

Tableview
20th Feb 2013, 18:23
I disagree. I think he was extremely confused and in a state of shock, as one would be, and not thinking rationally. He remembers bits and pieces and is having trouble putting them together to form a coherent sequence of events.

I'm not saying he's innocent. What we don't know is the sequence of events and what we will probably never know is the reason why he shot her. And looking at the SAP's past dismal performances at detection, and the sad state of the judiciary, there may never be a final verdict.

Erwin Schroedinger
20th Feb 2013, 18:33
Ms Steenkamp was shot in the right side of her head, her right hip and her right elbow, Det Botha said.
...
The officer later testified that he thought the bullets were fired "down", suggesting Mr Pistorius had his prosthetic legs on.

Based upon the floorplan, the above suggest that she was sat on the loo. That would require Pistorius to fire at least three of his shots exclusively towards the loo seat area, two of which would have been aimed at the hip and elbow heights of a seated person. However, if I wanted to take out an intruder in the toilet room, I'd spread the shots evenly, at waist height, across the entire length of the room.

I'm suggesting that he knew where the person inside the toilet was located, perhaps because that person was speaking, shouting or whatever. If the victim was speaking (or even screaming) he would have known it was his girlfriend.

They reportedly found one of the cartridges in the toilet bowl...

The bullet holes in the door should answer all of the above - height and direction of entry, all recorded in the door. Any bullets not stopped by the victim must have penetrated the toilet room, providing yet more information.

dead_pan
20th Feb 2013, 18:37
Tableview - Fair point. I was in a car accident earlier this year and had some trouble re-collecting events to a police officer 5 minutes after the event. This had little to do with shock - I was just keen to portray my actions and decisons in the best possible light.

G-CPTN
20th Feb 2013, 18:40
So, was the victim wearing her 'pants'?

Was the toilet water 'clean' or was it urine?

Solid Rust Twotter
20th Feb 2013, 19:19
SRT.. i only have to point you at your own posts in the SA politics thread regarding the gov, the police and ineptitude..


The triumph of hope over experience, Mr SG.:(


As for OP, he was armed and had a possible intruder locked in a small room with no possibility of escape. To me that would be the time to de-escalate and call for compound security to deal with whoever it was.

toffeez
20th Feb 2013, 19:23
Who's girlfriend wears panties in bed?

probes
20th Feb 2013, 19:51
Officers found the victim downstairs covered in towels and wearing white shorts and a black top. (BBC)

If it actually had been an intruder, what then? What's the law for shooting intruders (armed mostly, as I understand)?

stuckgear
20th Feb 2013, 20:05
If it actually had been an intruder, what then? What's the law for shooting intruders (armed mostly, as I understand)?

in SA, i understand it's permissable, you just cant go shooting someone in the back.

as the saying goes, if you shoot an intruder on your property drag the body inside.

ehwatezedoing
20th Feb 2013, 20:10
This whole story make me sick :yuk:

Kind of remind me of Lance Armstrong for some reasons.
Lies after lies until cornered for good!

Oooops....
Maybe I should wait for someone to post the TAF and Metar of this shooting night before making any assumption :hmm:

stuckgear
20th Feb 2013, 20:13
Looking at the floor plan, I simply don't understand how you can lose track of your girlfriend in the space of nine metres between a balcony and a bathroom entrance, when you have to cross the bedroom to get from one to the other.

Even in darkness. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif

i dont think i would want to fire off any rounds in any size room unless i could confirm that anyone i didnt want to hit was behind me, particularly in darkness !

lexxity
20th Feb 2013, 20:26
The prosecution have made a right arse of it so far. Totally discredited themselves. I think OP will make bail tomorrow and the case will collapse.

The case in the loo was found by the defence team and missed by the investigating detective, the investigating detective also didn't cover his feet before entering the property, thus contaminating the scene! :eek:

OP moved Reeva because he was told he didn't have time to wait for an ambulance and to head to the hospital now. If he was guilty would he have stuck around or would he even have called the compound security and medical assistance? It appears to me that he'll walk. Pun not intended.

ricardian
21st Feb 2013, 04:51
You could not make it up! "Pistorius detective on attempted murder charges (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21528631)"

Mike X
21st Feb 2013, 05:35
What a farce !

OP will get bail under schedule 5.

The case for prosecution now rests squarely with forensics, which will be argued.

The prosecutor, Nel, did he not liaise with Botha AND then brief him accordingly re what to expect and what to answer ?

These people earn a salary, you know...

Solid Rust Twotter
21st Feb 2013, 06:10
Words fail me. This is the heavily politicised police force (sorry - "service") who are increasingly becoming a reflection of their political masters.


You couldn't make it up.....

stuckgear
21st Feb 2013, 07:28
Words fail me. This is the heavily politicised police force (sorry - "service") who are increasingly becoming a reflection of their political masters.


You couldn't make it up.....

i feel your pain SRT, it could be considered life imitating comedy, but it's not even funny.

from our favorite:

http://www.zapiro.com/Cartoons/m_130217st.jpg

http://www.zapiro.com/Cartoons/m_130214mg.jpg

Mike X
21st Feb 2013, 09:11
'tis become a real embarrassment for us.

My g_d, an officer of the law (27 yrs) trying to avoid a court date. THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER !

I gave up a while ago after trying for 15 years.

It's every man for himself as far as I am concerned. IOW, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

Sad, but true.

Still, a beautiful country and wouldn't live anywhere else.

Born and bred !

Tableview
21st Feb 2013, 09:15
Talk about a police farce!

This morning's diagrams of the toilet show a standalone toilet in a separate cubicle with its own door. Yesterday there were photos of a toilet with a washbasin next to it - they can't even get that right.

Meanwhile, maybe Hilton Botha represents a greater flight risk than OP!

CargoMatatu
21st Feb 2013, 11:21
So, Hilton has attempted murder charges made against him a couple of years ago.

Charges dropped.

Charges miraculously reinstated yesterday afternoon!

Conspiracy, anyone?

bluecode
21st Feb 2013, 13:28
Yes Tableview, the story is clearly made up. As for the forensics. I'm no expert but even the SAP, I'm sure have one or two and evidence like blood stains, blood splatter etc will tell a tale.

The whole notion that he accidently shot her four times thinking she was an intruder in the bathroom, through a closed door simply isn't plausible. If she'd been returning to the bedroom in the dark and he woke up suddenly thinking she was an intruder, might be more plausible.

It has all the hallmarks of domestic violence, with shades of OJ Simpson and probably the same verdict.

probes
21st Feb 2013, 15:57
and someone from a country where guns are not an everyday accessory just totally fails to understand how it's possibly possible to shoot without even knowing/seeing what at.
Of course, almost every other year a hunter shoots another one thinking it's a moose, but...

vulcanised
21st Feb 2013, 16:49
Just a week ago I didn't know who OP was.

Now, thanks to incessant media reports, I do, although I still don't see why I should be interested, other than thinking that dead girl looked nice.

The only real entertainment value has come today in the form of a footwear manufacturer anouncing they are severing arrangements with a man with no feet,

Erwin Schroedinger
21st Feb 2013, 16:50
You can justify four shots through the closed and locked toilet door if you accept OP's intent to take out the intruder before the intruder could take him out. If it was me holding his gun with that intent, I'd rapidly spray multiple shots across the entire length of the toilet. I would not concentrate my shots in one spot.

However, if the above makes sense, how does anyone explain why OP managed to hit a body-sized target, occupying maybe a third of the room space, with three of his four shots? That's a heck of an unlikely success rate for someone firing blind through a closed door.

My conclusion: OP must have known exactly where the occupant was located in the toilet and fired at least the vast majority (if not all) of his shots in that one area.

There is the potential flaw in his account - how did he know where the toilet occupant was located in the entire space of the toilet room?

Three possible answers:

(1) - Because the occupant voiced their presence and gave away their location. In that case he would surely have recognised the voice as his girlfriend's. If he fired four shots in such a scenario, his intent was to shoot his girlfriend.

(2) - Because he'd already broken through sufficient of the door with his cricket bat to be able to see the occupant or gain access to the key, in which case his intent was to shoot his girlfriend.

(3) - Because his girlfriend had gone to the loo (whether an argument was in progress or not) and he knew that she was sat on the toilet seat. In that case, his intent was to shoot her.

QED?

G-CPTN
21st Feb 2013, 16:59
Don't forget it was dark (or did the girlfriend switch on the light in the toilet?).

"Is that you in there, Sweetie?"

Erwin Schroedinger
21st Feb 2013, 17:08
"Is that you in there, Sweetie?"

That possibility was dismissed in an earlier post, G-CPTN.

probes
21st Feb 2013, 17:36
as to where he was
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c4#/video/world/2013/02/20/lkl-shubert-pistorius-floor-plan.cnn)

although I still don't see why I should be interested
he wasn't my hero either, although it certainly is impressive if one overcomes a disability - probably that's what makes it something to think about. One has everything - seemingly - and then it's all gone. No force majeure or deus ex machina. Just one wrong final decision.

Tableview
21st Feb 2013, 18:38
Yes Tableview, the story is clearly made up. As for the forensics. I'm no expert but even the SAP, I'm sure have one or two and evidence like blood stains, blood splatter etc will tell a tale. Can I suggest, bluecode, that since you clearly have the crime solved, motive defined, modus operandi clarified, you might apply for a job with the NPA. You might be able to a better job than the present incumbent who by the way barely speaks English.

They do have number of vacancies, including CEO :
NPA (http://www.npa.gov.za/ReadContent399.aspx)
http://www.npa.gov.za/UploadedFiles/NPA%20Advert%20-%20CEO.pdf
(http://www.npa.gov.za/ReadContent399.aspx)

al_renko
21st Feb 2013, 21:55
his defence is all about the burgular,so why would this burgular head for the loo and not the loot! Doesn't make sense,he(the burgular) has already taken a chance going into the place in the first place,so we are to believe in the limited time he has,he decides to take a leak,he knows the house has a gun nut at home,24Hr armed response within notice,panic buttons all over the premises,it is a bullshit story but is probably a winner!

G-CPTN
21st Feb 2013, 22:02
why would this burglar head for the loo and not the loot?I believe the toilet window was the only one without security bars.

owen meaney
21st Feb 2013, 23:19
After reading the defence questioning of the police, and the answers, I am slowly shifting my position to believing Oscar's story.
He had previously stalked his washing machine.
Shoot first and ask questions later isn't a good motto when one's family/lover is in residence.

Tableview
22nd Feb 2013, 05:42
What is a burgular? A burglar who goes for the jugular? A regular burger?

al_renko
22nd Feb 2013, 05:52
So Pistorius waits for the burgular to conveniently arrive through the toilet with no security bars,shock+horror conveniently arrives aswell!
how many times had steencamp stayed over and used the loo? once,twice or multiple times,like i say it is a bullshit story.
The Schabir Shaik guide to healthy living!!!!

vulcanised
22nd Feb 2013, 12:47
If he gets bail, will he 'have it away on his toes'?

camel
22nd Feb 2013, 13:19
Bailed!:mad: the magistrate must be getting paid by the minute ....the prosecution case too weak ....plus the idiot bungling policeman on the scene..not enuf proof to oppose bail....only circumstantial evidence so far..etc etc ..not a flight risk ..etc etc........phew....... this even better than Oj !

bluecode
22nd Feb 2013, 14:07
Can I suggest, bluecode, that since you clearly have the crime solved, motive defined, modus operandi clarified, you might apply for a job with the NPA. You might be able to a better job than the present incumbent who by the way barely speaks English. Tableview, you don't have to be Sherlock bloody Holmes to ride a coach and horses through his cock and bull story.

There are plenty of examples of people accidently shooting a family member thinking they were a burglar but mistaking your girlfriend who just got out of your bed and went to the ensuite bathroom for a burglar when he was wide awake is really pushing credulity to the limit.

I also read somewhere that when the police arrived they found him with his brother and lawyer. Funny that.

El Grifo
22nd Feb 2013, 14:18
So he has been granted bail !!

Surprised me a little, but hey, maybe it works there like it works in the UK.

High profile and well heeled, no probs.

Council house and skint, bang em up :ugh:

G-CPTN
22nd Feb 2013, 14:24
Saves the state from having to fund OP's accommodation (and having to ponder how to deal with his 'inabilities').

El Grifo
22nd Feb 2013, 14:58
Fair point Cptn !! :}

toffeez
22nd Feb 2013, 15:08
"your girlfriend who just got out of your bed and went to the ensuite bathroom for a burglar".

I suppose she was just horny.

G-CPTN
22nd Feb 2013, 15:19
Now, where could OP escape to?

Evanelpus
22nd Feb 2013, 15:21
He was ordered to surrender his arms, jeez, you couldn't write this crap!!

Tableview
22nd Feb 2013, 15:33
He is bailed, not on presumption of innocence, but on the basis that keeping him in prison (particularly in view of the way the prisons in SA are) prior to the trial commencing serves no useful purpose and that he is not considered a danger to society. The bail conditions are very stringent, unusually so by South African standards.

His punishment, far worse than any punishment that any court could mete out, is that he will carry to the grave the guilt and responsibility for what happened that morning.

Evanelpus
22nd Feb 2013, 15:38
He is bailed, not on presumption of innocence, but on the basis that keeping him in prison (particularly in view of the way the prisons in SA are) prior to the trial commencing serves no useful purpose and that he is not considered a danger to society. The bail conditions are very stringent, unusually so by South African standards.

Can I play Devils Advocate here.

If he was a down and out black tramp, would he been offered a similar deal or would he have gone straight to jail, not collecting his £200 en route?

G-CPTN
22nd Feb 2013, 15:44
If he was a down and out black tramp, would he been offered a similar deal or would he have gone straight to jail,
There must be many places where a down and out black tramp could disappear where a white middle class man with no feet would 'stand out' . . .

Mr Chips
22nd Feb 2013, 16:01
I don't like to jump to conclusions...but its looking bad for Oscar!

BUT

national hero, icon to millions shoots his g/f...but the police investigation is conveniently bungled. Quite a good way to avoid banging up the hero...

or too cynical?

El Grifo
22nd Feb 2013, 23:24
Same shit, different continent :ugh:

Solid Rust Twotter
23rd Feb 2013, 03:38
...conveniently bungled...

Ops normal in SA unless the state can milk it for political gain. Even then, they sometimes slip through a gap left by the investigators.

probes
24th Feb 2013, 07:23
it's DWail, but...

Representing a celebrity poses distinct challenges to a lawyer. Celebrities often care more about today than tomorrow. They are concerned about the immediate impact of the case on their image.
Pistorius’s image is worth millions of dollars and every day that passes reduces that value.

I am certain that he instructed his lawyers to get him out on bail now, even if that meant compromising his longer-term chances of freedom. The best proof of that is the unusual affidavit he signed, laying out his defence in some detail.

He was not required to do that, but I’m certain his lawyer told him that he would increase his chances of getting bail if he put forward a plausible defence. However, there are great risks in submitting an affidavit before all the forensic evidence is in.

Scientific evaluation of the crime scene may show inconsistencies with the defence proffered in the affidavit. That would hurt Pistorius further down the line.


Celebrities’ lawyers are often too anxious to please their clients and sometimes sacrifice professionalism in the interests of not being fired. I’m not suggesting that filing the affidavit in Pistorius’s case was an example of this, but I am saying that the defence lawyer should have been darn sure that his client was telling him the truth before he allowed him to lock in his story so early.

Most lawyers would not have submitted such an affidavit. But the defence attorney knows more than I what is in the public record and may have made the right decision.

A. Dershowitz, headline about Pistorius having used the cricket bat otherwise than smashing the door.
Horrified family told Pistorius 'DID beat Reeva with cricket bat' as they are shown her extensive head injuries | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2283507/Horrified-family-told-Pistorius-DID-beat-Reeva-cricket-bat-shown-extensive-head-injuries.html)

cavortingcheetah
24th Feb 2013, 08:05
Sportsmanship and the Oscar?

Oscar Pistorius is wrong on stride length (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/sep/03/oscar-pistorius-stride-length-oliveira)

toffeez
24th Feb 2013, 08:08
If the Mail is correct (yes, ho, ho ..) and missy had severe skull injuries, it's difficult to see a defence now.

Slipped and banged her head, M'lud ... ?

beaufort1
24th Feb 2013, 08:13
You couldn't make it up.

BBC News - Oscar Pistorius brother Carl also facing homicide trial (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21563911)

Tableview
24th Feb 2013, 08:13
I find it odd that the 'head injuries' story hasn't made it into any other newspapers except the DM - at least not that I can see. Nor has it been mentioned on SA radio or TV.

stuckgear
24th Feb 2013, 09:04
is it just me that finds it odd that someone who was beaten about the head with a cricket bat, let alone having their skull crushed, would have the capacity to lock themselves in a toilet to be then shot and killed.

hellsbrink
24th Feb 2013, 09:05
Could have shot her and then slapped her with the cricket bat, for she was alive when he dragged her out of the dunny (allegedly).

thing
24th Feb 2013, 09:21
Just watching some of the coverage from the court proceedings. It makes me sick to see those awful camera-toting vultures in a feeding frenzy intruding on peoples' grief and misfortune.

Weren't you intruding on people's grief and misfortune then?

Tableview
24th Feb 2013, 10:14
Thing : I'm not sure whether that is a rhetorical question or a feeble attempt at a derogatory or sarcastic remark. All it does is make you look foolish.

I have been following the case, as have many others globally, and have a particular interest in it since I know some of the deceased's family.

That does not put me in the same league as the lowlife who are infesting the courtroom and surrounding area sticking telephotos lenses up peoples' noses. Or perhaps in your view, it does. You're welcome to your view of things.

Jazz Hands : I'll rephrase my comment. The 'crushed skull' story has only been in the gutterpress. No serious medium has picked it up as far as I can see.

toffeez
24th Feb 2013, 12:12
The "crushed skull" is a matter of fact, or not. The medics know and they're unlikely to be contradicted. Unless SA is that rotten ...

PANDAMATENGA
24th Feb 2013, 12:29
Whilst I may have missd it I do not recall seeing much mention on here or in the media of the fact that the first persons on the scene of the crime were his lawyer and brother!!
Is this a case of "getting the story straight" before calling the cops.To my mind mind an innocent victim of a burglary which results in a shooting calls the cops first.
Just sayin'
Panda

Sallyann1234
24th Feb 2013, 12:50
The questions I would like to have answered are:

1. Why the cricket bat injuries?

2. Were there lights on in the bathroom/toilet? The lady would have switched them on, a burglar wouldn't.

3. Why did she lock the door? Most ladies of my acquaintance shut the door for privacy but don't need to bolt it if there is no-one around except their partner.

4, Why shoot four rounds? One through the middle of the door would be enough to disable or disorientate a burglar.

Shack37
24th Feb 2013, 16:29
Re: The cricket bat injuries. Towards the end of the article.

Oscar Pistorius 'was told to back off from Reeva Steenkamp' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/9891015/Oscar-Pistorius-was-told-to-back-off-from-Reeva-Steenkamp.html)

Tableview
24th Feb 2013, 17:33
The article in the Telegraph (which was I think syndicated from a SA newspaper) said :

He did not describe Miss Steenkamp's injuries further. Police on Sunday denied reports that Pistorius used a cricket bat found at his house to assault his girlfriend before shooting her.
Mr Myers, who identified Miss Steenkamp's body, told the Daily Telegraph that he was "surprised" by reports that she had been assaulted with a cricket bat.
"When I identified Reeva, I saw no indication of that", he said. "The first I knew about it was when I read it in the papers. I do not know where that came from".
No such evidence was entered by the prosecution during pre-trial proceedings to decide if Pistorius would be granted bail, even though it would likely have affected the magistrate's ruling.


So, either there is a cover-up of gargantuan proportions going on (possible but unlikely) or someone is talking bollocks (possible and highly likely).

probes
24th Feb 2013, 19:15
Actually it was the opinion by A. Dershowitz why I brought in the DWail link - I guess he would have objected if he were misquoted.
Otherwise everything can and has been twisted and turned, not just facts.

cavortingcheetah
24th Feb 2013, 19:31
Meanwhile, down here at the forefront of cutting edge technology, young Pistorius has engaged Vuma Reputation Management, a Johannesburg-based firm that specialises in brand-building and crisis communications for clients such as mining firm Anglo American Platinum, Colgate and First National Bank. It has begun the long process of trying to rehabilitate Pistorius's public image by overhauling his website.
Oscar Pistorius | Official Website of The Blade Runner (http://oscarpistorius.com)

probes
24th Feb 2013, 19:34
support and condolences for Oscar and for the family of Reeva Steenkamp
AND for the family...
Jeezzz....:sad:

edited: the quote was from the rehabilitating website.

stuckgear
24th Feb 2013, 21:07
So, either there is a cover-up of gargantuan proportions going on (possible but unlikely)

i would say highly unlikely as well, that would require some degree of competence...



South African man arrests drunk police officer (http://www.africanoutlookonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5895:south-african-man-arrests-drunk-police-officer&catid=99:outlookscroller)


A man in South Africa has performed a citizen's arrest on a police officer. The KwaZulu-Natal man arrested an allegedly drunk police officer and locked him up in the back of his police van after watching him drive recklessly through the streets of Pietermaritzburg.

Khanyi Mnikathi, a witness who lives on Howard Road, also said the policeman was drunk when he was pulled out of the vehicle.
She said: “He was quite sloshed. He was weak enough for him to be pulled out and into the back of the van.
“When he was put into the back [of the van], he started crying.”
She said the police officers who arrived there “were quite embarrassed”.
“It was ironic because it was a citizen who put him in the back of his own van,” she said.
Mnikathi said that when her mother approached the officer to ask him what happened, he said he had been celebrating his birthday and that all his friends had bought him a bottle of alcohol. “He did not deny that he was drunk,” she said.
Another witness, who gave his name as Sbu, agreed that the officer was very drunk.
The policeman was taken to Loop Street police station.
It was alleged that police had recently been called to a nightclub in the city where the officer had held up his girlfriend at gunpoint.
George said that while he was giving his statement, “two men came into the station to report that a police van had crashed into [their vehicle] and fled”.


unfortunately, not a sketch from Monty Python..

Tableview
24th Feb 2013, 21:27
It was reported today that two South African Police Services officers are currently being investigated for rape in two separate cases.
In the first case, a woman went to lodge a domestic violence case and was allegedly dragged to the trauma room of the Herbertsdale satellite police station, where she was raped by the officer who was supposed to be assisting her. The second case is of a woman in the Northern Cape who had asked a SAPS member for a lift home. Instead of ensuring that she got home safely, he allegedly raped her.


Very sad. We used to have a reasonably efficient and well functioning mostly white police force who kept law and order even though they were far from perfect, being mostly semi-literate poor whites in sheltered employment under the apartheid government.

We now have a dysfunctional, corrupt and incompetent mostly black police farce who are more a part of the problem than a part of the solution.

Solid Rust Twotter
25th Feb 2013, 04:07
You couldn't make up this stuff. Getting crime under control with dysfunctional police just isn't going to happen and it can only get worse.


Top cop: Officers hire guns out for crime | News24 (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Officers-hire-guns-out-for-crimes-top-cop-20121003)

SABC News.com - Police reservist condemned for (http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/1d066c004dd5fd30abb2bff251b4e4e2/Police-reservist-condemned-for-%E2%80%98renting%E2%80%99-firearm-20121612)

Tableview
25th Feb 2013, 07:42
Why South Africa's top murder expert will not be involved in Oscar Pistorius case: she is his aunt - Africa - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/why-south-africas-top-murder-expert-will-not-be-involved-in-oscar-pistorius-case-she-is-his-aunt-8508750.html)

Blade Runner Killing And The Media Blackout ? RT Op-Edge (http://rt.com/op-edge/blade-runner-media-pistorius-377/)

BBC News - Oscar Pistorius case: Is South Africa's legal system reliable? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21535387)

Cops caught with prostitutes - Sowetan LIVE <meta name="publisher" content="Times Media Group"> <meta name="publication" content="Sowetanlive"> <meta name="author" content="The Star, Sapa"> <meta name= "title" content="Cops caught with prostitutes"> (http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2012/04/12/cops-caught-with-prostitutes)

Cop caught having sex with prisoner - Sowetan LIVE <meta name="publisher" content="Times Media Group"> <meta name="publication" content="Sowetanlive"> <meta name="author" content="Sapa"> <meta name= "title" content="Cop caught having sex with prisone (http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2012/05/23/cop-caught-having-sex-with-prisoner)

stuckgear
25th Feb 2013, 07:57
BBC News - Oscar Pistorius case: Is South Africa's legal system reliable? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21535387)

hahahhahahahahahah ! typical 'hand wringing' from the BBC! perhaps they had taken their head out of their asses and actually stepped off the PC soap box, they'd have a friggin' clue !

Mike X
25th Feb 2013, 20:33
He can run, but he cannot hide. ;)

Solid Rust Twotter
26th Feb 2013, 03:53
The way the Keystone Kops operate in these parts, OP could easily do an OJ Lite and just sit back waiting for them to shoot themselves in the collective foot. He's got the money for a sharp lawyer so the chances of ever knowing what really happened are about zero, what with the bumbling cops and the oleaginous squirming of counsel.

cavortingcheetah
26th Feb 2013, 04:31
Oscar and Carl, his brother, both face murder charges. Sometime over the long Easter weekend, when so many are on holiday, a GIV or similar may lift off from FALA or FAWB and disappear into the northward skies. Here's a list of possible destinations.
DoJ&CD: ILR/Extradition and Mutual Legal Assistance (http://www.justice.gov.za/ilr/mla.html)
Italy seems to be absent from the list and no doubt a passport could be easily purchased in exchange for sufficient moolah to fund a Bunga Bunga party commencing with cricket lessons in the marble halls of the presidential palace.

thing
26th Feb 2013, 15:31
I'm not sure whether that is a rhetorical question or a feeble attempt at a derogatory or sarcastic remark. All it does is make you look foolish.

It just struck me as odd that you appear to think that TV cameras intruding are OK but still photographers are not. Incidentally I happen to share your view of the media.

Do what I do, don't buy newspapers and listen to the news on the radio. If everyone did that then the need to shove cameras in people's faces would disappear.

Tableview
26th Feb 2013, 16:28
Bit of a misunderstanding. I am not sure why you think that I appear to think that TV cameras intruding are OK but still photographers are not. I haven't said anything to indicate that I differentiate between the two types of photographer, but if anything the TV cameras are worse. Both are bottom feeding lowlife.

You make an interesting and valid comment about radio, and in fact whilst out of SA I mostly listen on my beloved internet radio! Far better coverage and as you've said, less intrusive than TV. I do like to read newspapers though, online or hard copy (when I'm not in the UK or SA I'm too mean to buy the paper copies!)

cavortingcheetah
26th Feb 2013, 17:17
Something in the absolute worst of taste or is this common practice in the Afrikaans culture?

Pistorius will hold private memorial service for dead girlfriend Reeva at his uncle's house | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2284859/Pistorius-hold-private-memorial-service-dead-girlfriend-Reeva-uncles-house.html)

Solid Rust Twotter
26th Feb 2013, 18:23
Shouldn't think so. Never heard of it. They tend to be a little dour for that, although the younger ones may have gone soft in the mean time. To be honest, I'd guess it's more to do with a clamouring media trying to satisfy the usual horde of dullard soap opera craving ghouls who get their vicarious jollies wanking over which minor sleb has had it off with a goat this week.

Tableview
26th Feb 2013, 18:28
Certainly not something I've heard of, but then apart from one ex g/f and a couple of miscellaneous bits of los, I've not had much to do with the Afrikaaners on a social level.

I'd say it's bizarre rather than in bad taste. One has to try to imagine the state of mind that the guy must be in and understand that he is not acting logically.

cavortingcheetah
26th Feb 2013, 19:23
Thank you for the prompt. Bizarre bad taste will do nicely as a description.
Logical acting would adequately describe the attempted extrication from a murder conviction of the once and former Blade Runner now rechristened Fourindoor after his baptism of fire.
Vuma Reputation Management is now a certified AAA Level 2 B-BBEE Contributor (http://www.vumareputation.com)
Is Janine Hills, the founder and CEO of Vuma, a cricket fan?

Solid Rust Twotter
26th Feb 2013, 19:36
Ah, such nice corporate acronyms to describe rolling over to have your tummy tickled by the pilferati.:rolleyes:

Spin doctors? I :mad: 'em!

Mac the Knife
26th Feb 2013, 19:51
That's Africaners to you Engelsman!

Typical slapgat rooinek....

Mac

:yuk:

Tableview
26th Feb 2013, 19:59
Mac, I stand corrected, the language has two 'a's and the nation has one. But you're also wrong, it's Afrikaners with a 'k'!

Mac the Knife
26th Feb 2013, 20:07
Ja, it's unfortunate that we have the "k"s......

:cool:

eko4me
26th Feb 2013, 20:39
OOhh Argg ... ! Ex-RSA of 18 years. Trying to keep an open mind. Struggling.

Mike X
26th Feb 2013, 20:53
OOhh Argg ... ! Ex-RSA of 18 years. Trying to keep an open mind. Struggling.

Boet, you ran. You're not eligible to be called a South African. Grow some living here.

Doos.

thing
26th Feb 2013, 22:01
Bit of a misunderstanding. I am not sure why you think that I appear to think that TV cameras intruding are OK

Because in your OP you said you had been watching court proceedings. I took it to mean that you were watching it on TV, therefore you must think that TV coverage of media frenzies like this are OK otherwise you would vote with your eyes as it were and not watch. If you meant that you were actually present in court watching then apologies.

Solid Rust Twotter
27th Feb 2013, 03:43
Either way, he's pretty stuffed. The media circus and the ghoulish antics of the great unwashed can't be helping either.

Tableview
27th Feb 2013, 09:07
Ja, it's unfortunate that we have the "k"s.....Indeed!

Filling space .......

toffeez
28th Feb 2013, 11:48
BBC News - South Africa shock as 'police dragging' video man dies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21615593)

cavortingcheetah
28th Feb 2013, 15:58
Macia the Mozambican or perhaps Mozambician was an illegal immigrant operating a mini bus taxi. Irrespective of how many lives he endangered on an hourly basis in plying his trade, you will find that neither illegal immigrants nor the drivers of those taxis get a great deal of sympathy from anyone down here. Macia's death was an accident with probably less premeditation of negligence involved than his passengers faced on a daily basis as they rode around town in his blood wagon.

Tableview
28th Feb 2013, 16:04
This is the type of barbarity that the Apartheid regime was accused of. Under the barbarians who have power now, these things are worse and more frequent as we move towards lawlessness.

One more dangerous unlicensed k-taxi off the road. Good.

stuckgear
28th Feb 2013, 16:36
http://www.zapiro.com/Cartoons/m_130221mg.jpg

Detective Warrant Officer Hilton Botha, the officer in charge of the Oscar Pistorius murder investigation was destroyed during the cross-examination by Barry Roux’s (Defence lawyer of Oscar Pistorius) as he pointed out multiple examples of negligent police work at the scene and afterwards. Blunder examples by Botha were misjudgement of distances, acknowledgement that the forensics team left one of the bullet slugs fired at Reeva Steenkamp in the toilet bowl , losing track of illegal ammunition found inside the house and that Botha himself walked through the crime scene without wearing protective shoe covers, potentially contaminating the area.

Tableview
28th Feb 2013, 16:45
Yep, he's what we would call a total doos.

Solid Rust Twotter
28th Feb 2013, 17:17
It's unfortunate that most commuters have no other recourse than to use the minibus taxis. If govt had in place a working transport system they would have an alternative to the arrogant scofflaws who drive the matatus. These lunatics make up the rules as they go along, disregard all road and safety regs, and will even drive up on the sidewalks. The death toll over the holiday season is eye watering with many perishing in overloaded taxis.

Sadly, the Moz driver was probably just another victim of the xenophobia shown towards foreigners in SA. This once more reflects on a dysfunctional govt where law enforcement has become a joke. It reinforces my belief that the whole OP saga handled by the Keystone Kops will become another OJ Simpson episode.

stuckgear
28th Feb 2013, 19:26
This once more reflects on a dysfunctional govt where law enforcement has become a joke

The silence from the Peter Haines of the world is deafening.

It reinforces my belief that the whole OP saga handled by the Keystone Kops will become another OJ Simpson episode.

unfortunately, the first thing i thought of when the whole OP story broke was 'the police investigation is going to be interesting'.

G-CPTN
7th Mar 2013, 15:33
BBC News - Oscar Pistorius case: Hilton Botha, ex-lead detective, quits (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21705374)

Mac the Knife
7th Mar 2013, 17:37
CC said: "Macia the Mozambican or perhaps Mozambician was an illegal immigrant operating a mini bus taxi. Irrespective of how many lives he endangered on an hourly basis in plying his trade, you will find that neither illegal immigrants nor the drivers of those taxis get a great deal of sympathy from anyone down here. Macia's death was an accident with probably less premeditation of negligence involved than his passengers faced on a daily basis as they rode around town in his blood wagon."

Now hold on there sport.

Mido Macia was operating a minibus taxi. Whether he was an illegal immigrant or not (and I have no idea whether he had a residence permit) that is no reason to drag him along the street and cause his death.

Neither you nor I have any knowledge of whether he was a dangerous driver - even if he was, that is no reason to drag him along the street and cause his death.

Whether you or anyone else sympathised with him, that is no reason to drag him along the street and cause his death.

Accident? Have you watched the video? You call that an accident?

******* hell!

Mac

:yuk:

cavortingcheetah
7th Mar 2013, 18:24
Another case of police brutality in the land of rape and carnage? No doubt at the trial or hearing it will be determined that the killing was not premeditated. No one could be expected to know that dragging a chap along a road could cause his death so one might expect a verdict of accidental manslaughter in the execution of duty? Similarly, one expects that Oscar will bounce out of his present predicament in spite of comedian Frankie Boyle's comment on the Comic Relief: "Pistorius to me sounds like a spell Harry Potter would say to make your legs drop off."

Capetonian
11th Mar 2013, 16:51
There is a programme tonight on BBC3, for anyone interested and with access to UK TV, at 2100Z. "Oscar Pistorius…What really Happened?"

toffeez
11th Mar 2013, 17:26
"Lawyers for Oscar Pistorius have appealed against bail restrictions imposed after he was charged with murdering his girlfriend.
His representatives argue that the double-amputee athlete is not a flight risk and should have the option of travelling outside
South Africa as long as he has official permission."

Sky News

G-CPTN
11th Mar 2013, 18:49
OP is rumoured to be suicidal.

"Oh no he's not" say his family.

Solid Rust Twotter
11th Mar 2013, 19:34
What an embarrassing little soap opera.

TWT
28th Mar 2013, 12:40
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnewso /oscar-pistorius/9959067/Oscar-Pistorius-cleared-to-travel-abroad-to-compete.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/9959067/Oscar-Pistorius-cleared-to-travel-abroad-to-compete.html)

Very strange,allowing the shooter in a murder case to travel overseas before his trial.

MagnusP
28th Mar 2013, 12:59
Presumably they think he's unlikely to leg it.

Limeygal
28th Mar 2013, 13:28
Well, the whole thing has got me stumped!

Hat, coat, prosthetic....

Uncle Fred
28th Mar 2013, 23:08
Is this not all part of the PR campaign that is being managed for him? How else, when he eventually writes a book and starts doing telly interviews, can he say that this step was necessary "to put the past behind him" and to focus on "representing his country the best that he can" etc. One merely need cut and paste a veritable storehouse of pithy sayings to go along with this.

I would imagine that young Oscar does not draw a breath without a serious amount of parsing and guidance from well-heeled PR types.

From what I have read on this thread, the detective made mistakes and sprung Oscar from ever having to really answer for what happened. Thus it can remain shrouded in mystery and he is in the clear with this sordid matter left to the members of the bar and media.

Sad really. A young woman was killed but she seems to be only an ancillary/oblique part of the story.

Uncle Fred
17th May 2013, 23:43
Yes it is Vanity Fair, but this is an interesting article nonetheless.

Inside the Oscar Pistorius Murder Case: What Paths Took the Couple to That Final Night? | Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder)

Could one of the South African PPruners tell us where the case stands now? The impression that I gain is that he seems to have been absolved of any wrongdoing by his supporters and that their view will prevail.

Will there even be a trial? If so will it be something that he just phones in? A bit of hustle and bustle outside the courthouse with the press corps but with a verdict that has long since been decided?

What I find remarkably interesting is the absolute relentlessness of those set against him. Not only did they apparently plant syringes in his digs, but they also marshalled a long list of those who know him to portray him as having a short fuse. None of this of course has any bearing on a trial but there he was, innocent as the new snow, and out come the long knives!

onetrack
18th May 2013, 03:20
IMHO, Pistorious is a lying, narcissistic arsehole who should be found guilty of murder.

If, as he claimed, he yelled to Reeva to "call the cops", there should be some record of her calling them? Who shoots through a closed, locked bathroom door at a supposed intruder, without checking where your partner actually is?

How can you get up at 3:00AM to close balcony doors and not know if your partner is in your double bed or not? Why, if Reeva was reputedly using the toilet, was she shot through her shorts? Surely, she would have had them pulled down?

Why would a woman lock the toilet door against her partner, that she has just probably shared her naked body with? The only reason she would lock the toilet door, was if she was fighting with him.

The man is basically a control-freak thug, with a record of abusing women and showing extreme jealousy. A gun-freak, who typical of his breed, is all-too-prepared to use firearms to settle domestic disputes.
I would hope they find him guilty and he rots in prison for decades, as he deserves to.

However, typically, the power of money will rule, and the Pistorius familys wealth and prestige will ensure the result is what they want - acquittal.

Capetonian
18th May 2013, 06:01
The Vanity Fair article doesn't add much to the information already in the public domain about the case, and I'm deliberately avoiding using the word 'facts'. It's mostly journalistic hype, as one might expect in a women's glossy magazine.

The police investigation was a mockery from the start, with evidence missed, falsified, ignored, or lost. Hilton Botha's murder charges by the way are probably irrelevant, he shot at a fleeing taxi after a suspected crime, in the course of his duty. That said, he came across in court as a semi-literate inarticulate moron. That, sadly, typifies the SAPS.

Pistorius is probably a lying, narcissistic, controlling, paranoid arsehole, but I don't believe that he intended to murder Reeva Steenkamp. Just my opinion.

Much of what appears in the article is hearsay and from people with, one way or the other, some kind of an agenda. A lot of people with barely peripheral involvement are muscling in on this case in their own interests

Last I heard was that Pistorius is due to go to court on 4th. June. I don't know if that information is still correct. My guess is that due to the extreme incompetence of the police and judiciary in SA, and inconclusive evidence, he will not be charged with murder but rather with culpable homicide (I'm not sure of the legal definitions under SA law but I mean that he will be charged with her killing but not as a deliberate act intended to kill.) That may be a fair conclusion. Only two people know, and one isn't going be telling, and the other won't tell the truth.

chuks
18th May 2013, 10:44
"Vanity Fair" is more than just a women's glossy magazine, something on the order of "Cosmopolitan." They often feature in-depth articles on serious matters.

I am afraid that part of Oscar's luck may be his image, yes. Think of the notorious O.J. Simpson case, when members of his fan base were even cheering him on during that low-speed police chase. Both these men had very appealing images that obscured who they really were and what they may have done. Sports fans do not do "introspection," preferring to keep their heroes as heroes rather than doing the thought necessary to see them as mere, fallible mortals, and, of course, the hero does not murder a woman. "No, our hero must have had some good reason to do what he did not do."

It's not just sports; look at how popular Che Guevara still is with large numbers of people, despite his well-known liking for staging show trials, followed by mass executions. It's a case now of "Never mind that; feel the quality of my new tee-shirt!"

Hero-worshippers like their heroes, and they will overlook a lot to keep them. Their victims... nobody's heroes, just victims, but sports, like politics, is about winning.

I thought that Oscar's story involved the use of a cricket bat, not just a gun, on the deceased. Was that not so at all? There was a joke making the rounds about the gun being there in case the cricket bat jammed, before it all went quiet.

Uncle Fred
18th May 2013, 17:55
You make some very good points Chuks. As odious as some of the South American regimes were, did it justify what Guevara did in executing captives after show trials? Try as I might to at least listen to a well-reasoned argument from a different point of view, I still can never understand the fascination with this rather cruel man.

You also bring out a rather poignant slice of American history. Before anyone (except perhaps the constabulary) had any idea why the police were in pursuit of OJ, his supporters were roadside cheering him on. Yes, presumed innocence but that is simply not thinking...


Capetonian your remarks are also well taken. The VF article did not bring out too much that is new. It is indeed very narrowly sourced but at least it was a longer piece that attempts to give the reader some background of who she was. For those of us not in SA that helps.

You mentioned what always is just one of many sordid sides to a story such as this--the people on the periphery who muscle in for their moment of fame. These kinds of people pour out of the woodwork during a case like this--much to the detriment of the narrative.

Onetrack--I wish anyone could answer the questions you raised. Why the locked door? Why no call? I fear justice will not be served in this case.

A primer on some of the terms of manslaughter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

Not sure of the exact terms that SA law uses but I would imagine that the concepts remain the same.

Capetonian
18th May 2013, 18:31
Thanks for that feedback, both of you.

Whilst you might expect that SA law would be closely aligned to UK law, it isn't, as it's Roman Dutch law.

I looked up culpable homicide as I know that is a term often used in SA where killing was not premeditated but should or could have been foreseen and it says:

"Culpable homicide" has been defined simply as "the unlawful negligent killing of a human being".

So I suspect that is what it will be. I have no idea what penalty it carries but I suspect that he will get off very lightly, and I'm not suggesting that this would be appropriate, it's just my take on the outcome.

cockney steve
19th May 2013, 19:36
Wonder who stmped-up for the bail, to spring him.
hope he doesn't take the opportunity to do a runner.

Punishment- chop off his hands, that'll stop him shooting without thinking! bastard needs to be saddled with punitive damages payable to the girl's family,- sufficient to wipe out his present and future profits from his fame and possibly make a good dent in his family's wealth, shoud they choose to subsidise him.

Uncle Fred
28th May 2013, 06:22
Hmmm. Looks as if young Oscar has to crack open the wallet....

Oscar Pistorius fined for unpaid taxes | Sport | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/26/oscar-pistorius-fined-unpaid-taxes)

Capetonian
2nd Jun 2013, 09:02
Oscar will have his next court appearance on Tuesday, against a background of missed, destroyed, tampered, falsified, and leaked evidence.

Pistorius could go free: Pictures of blood-spattered bathroom 'could wreck case' (says bungling detective who trod all over crime scene and faces attempted murder charges himself)

Botha has now quit the South African Police Service to start his own security company.

That's a scary thought, that a moron like that can be in charge of the safety of others, although he might not do any worse than the government.

probes
27th Jun 2013, 09:28
Oscar Pistorius, the Olympian and Paralympian sprint star who stands accused of the murder of his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, has allegedly told police that he cannot remember the 4-digit passcode for the iPhone 5 he was using the night of Steenkamp's death. As a result, Apple execs have been asked for their help accessing the iPhone's data.
Pistorius' memory lapse may possibly be explained by the fact that he owned so many phones: it's been reported that the iPhone 5 that police are trying to access was one of four devices found in the athlete's bathroom shortly after the shooting.
Local police spokesman Vineshkumar Moonoo told the press: "Pistorius is saying he can't remember the code and we have been unable to access messages sent or received that night. These could be crucial, and Apple executives in America have made their technicians available to help us.
"I cannot say Pistorius's memory failure is suspicious but the mobile phones were clearly in use up to the time of the killing."

Apple technicians 'unlock crucial data on Oscar Pistorius's iPhone' - iPad/iPhone - Macworld UK (http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipad-iphone/news/?newsid=3454340&pagtype=allchandate)

angels
27th Jun 2013, 09:39
The headline is wrong.

Where in the article does it say the phone has been unlocked? It hasn't been -- although surely Apple will get in somehow.

Uncle Fred
29th Jun 2013, 01:50
Mrs. UF made the comment that depending on how the South African press can be "squared" that this has a faint hint of Sebastian Flyte getting hauled into Chokey over his contretemps with the auto and London traffic. "Marquis' son not used to drink" I think was pretty close to one of the headlines shown.

Here we have "Scion of wealthy family not used to steroids, weapons, anger, and cellular telephony."

Tankertrashnav
7th Apr 2014, 17:13
What a bizarre trial this is turning out to be. Can you imagine the accused in a British court coming to the witness box and before answering a single question being allowed to make a whining, self-pitying speech addressed to the public gallery, while the judge and counsel looked on and listened in silence? Mind you, if he thought he was doing himself any good he was very much mistaken. The only good thing that came out of this was the dignified silence and lack of expression with which Reeva Steenkamp's parents met this pathetic performance.

Lon More
7th Apr 2014, 17:25
The Beeb sent the whole speech out on the lunchtime news.

I'd bring back the death penalty for whining. Wonder how long it took his lawyers to coach him?

airship
7th Apr 2014, 20:34
Oscar's most recent performance in the courtroom would do justice to any Shakespearen play performed in any world famous theatre anywhere in the World by any of the usual stars...?!

Obviously he has received some form of coaching from his lawyers. But if I might say so, his lawyers missed their calling. They should be producing Shakespeare or similar plays instead of just practicising law.

Let's face it. Oscar lost his temper one night. And shot his girlfriend. The rest is all just about reducing his sentence.

PS. Did anyone else notice that apart from this and the previous 2 posts, all the other posts in this thread date back to 2013 somehow...?! :confused: :uhoh:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
7th Apr 2014, 21:17
He could teach Tony Blair a thing or two about false emotion. What a whining, sniveling performance!

Hope the promised cross examining 'pit bull' tears him to shreds.

superq7
7th Apr 2014, 21:39
Lets face it. Oscar lost his temper one night. And shot his girlfriend

Airship, you've summed it up in a nutshell, I couldn't agree more.

Tankertrashnav
7th Apr 2014, 21:55
Airship - when I wanted to post about this "speech" I couldnt find the thread and had to find it with the search tool. I was amazed it hadnt been resurrected before now, but Im glad I did - if only to have my views about this pathetic specimen of spoilt brat humanity confirmed by subsequent posts.

El Grifo
8th Apr 2014, 12:37
I always thought they spoke English in South Africa.
Precious little evidence coming out of this more than pathetic trial.

Mind you that gutteral, snivelling, man-sobbing version escaping from Pistorious' throat is probably not the best example.

What a pathetic display :ugh:

El G.

cavortingcheetah
8th Apr 2014, 12:49
In the South African rules (by whatever name) for examination and cross examination of witnesses who are under oath, is a witness allowed to use the box as a platform for extraneous personal opinions and speeches or is he required to confine himself to answering the questions he's asked. If that last is the case then isn't OP in contempt of court and isn't the judge remiss in her duty in not, at the very least, reprimanding him?
Genuinely at a loss for words!
cc.

Lon More
8th Apr 2014, 12:59
He could teach Tony Blair a thing or two about false emotion

But Blair had Thatcher's performances to follow

El Grifo
8th Apr 2014, 13:07
Knew I had heard that snivelling voice before !

Uh7l8dx-h8M

El G.

Capetonian
8th Apr 2014, 13:12
A parallel to this is going to be the trial of Shrien Dewani, who was flown to CPT last night from BRS in a private jet chartered by the South African authorities, no doubt at the expense of the taxpayer.

MFC_Fly
8th Apr 2014, 13:20
He is guilty of murder - period! Whether or not he 'planned' to kill Reeva, whether or not he shot her in a rage or whether or not he honestly thought it was an intruder behind the closed door matters not a jot.

If he thought he was under threat from an intruder then he should have given a challenge from the safety of beyond the bathroom door. If the person behind the toilet door was indeed an armed intruder then you either call the police (or call Reeva to do it - after all he thought she was in bed just a few feet away) whilst covering the door with your weapon. You shoot ONLY after the intruder directly threatens your safety, e.g. pointing a gun directly at you, opening fire first or rushing towards you with a weapon.

By opening fire on an unknown person that you can not see, without offering a challenge (which, if his story is true, she would have answered him immediately) and without knowing if they were armed or not then you ARE committing murder. If it had indeed been an intruder in the toilet then it would still have been murder.

Lonewolf_50
8th Apr 2014, 14:49
He is guilty of murder - period! Whether or not he 'planned' to kill Reeva, whether or not he shot her in a rage or whether or not he honestly thought it was an intruder behind the closed door matters not a jot.
I suppose you were excused from the jury selection pool? :}

There is a class of crime called "homicide" and a subset called "murder."

Typically, homicide is any death caused with a person as the agent, which includes accidental and intentional, whereas murder usually carries with it the character of not being accidental. I accept your point about his being quick on the draw to enhance the argument that this be treated as murder rather than accidental homicide. (i.e shooting with intent to kill, regardless of known or unknown on the other side of the door. If that intent can be demonstrated, murder would be a rational finding).

If SA law does not make this distinction, I'll be interested to learn.

acbus1
8th Apr 2014, 14:56
The Pistorius account of events, as reported from the court proceedings, reveals a contradiction.

(1) - He suspects an intruder.

(2) - He declares when he shouted for the first time (before any shooting occured).

(3) - After that first shout, he declares hearing the toilet door slam. Note carefully: slam.

(4) - Reeva must have heard his first shout.

Possibility A - If she thought 'Better keep quiet, to not reveal my location to the burgular', why would she later slam the toilet door?

Possibility B - If she did not think 'Better keep quiet, to not reveal my location to the burgular', she must have shouted back. In that case, Pistorius would have known it was Reeva in the bathroom/toilet area.

No possibility C



Other flaws:

Reeva was shot dressed in day clothes. Pistorius says she was in bed.

Reeva ate shortly before being shot. Pistorius claims considerably earlier.

The first bullet hit Reeva's hip in a standing position. Subsequent shots hit and killed her in a sitting position. There must have been a delay between the first and second shots. Expert witness insists she must have screamed after the first shot. Why did Pistorious not stop shooting after the first? Reeva screamed and Pistorius had sufficient time to think, given the delay.

After the shooting Pistorius told security 'Everything is fine' on the telephone.

dazdaz1
8th Apr 2014, 15:21
I consider this persons first name to be most appropriate.

Lon More
8th Apr 2014, 17:05
crocodile tears flowing freely now. Or did he just peel some onions

Shaggy Sheep Driver
8th Apr 2014, 19:56
But Blair had Thatcher's performances to follow

Love or loathe Thatch, unlike Blair what you saw was what you got! No Blairite smoke and mirrors and chamelionism with her - just a handbag over the head if she thought you deserved it! :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose
8th Apr 2014, 20:09
Love or loathe Thatch,


Trust me, Lon loathes her with every fibre in his body :ok:

TBirdFrank
8th Apr 2014, 23:08
And me!

Like any right thinking person who saw what she did to the people and economy of anywhere beyond Finchley!

And the robbing Tories still think they can sneer and lie their way through their theiving and deception today!

Uncle Fred
8th Apr 2014, 23:51
Acbus -

Regarding her wearing day clothes and not being en deshabille, you mention that she was standing when she suffered the first shot. I do not mean to be prurient, but I have not seen in reporting if she was...errr...using the toilet for its intended purpose.

What I am trying to understand is if she had fled into the toilet to take refuge from either Oscar or an intruder or if perhaps she was there taking care of needs whilst Oscar pursued her and she slammed the door in haste as protection from what either she perceived to be a burglar or an errant Oscar. It makes a big difference if she was pursued there.

I guess where I and many others are getting confused is with the sequence of events leading up to the door slamming and gun play commencing.

I know I can search for it again, but where in that sequence did Oscar voice his displeasure/fear by using the cricket bat for other than its intended purpose?

Also, has anyone determined if Oscar was using performance enhancing steroids? If so, in what amount? I know that only 2 or 3 professional athletes have ever taken them on purpose (or so they say) but should have someone slipped this into his nutritional regimen via toothpaste, at a restaurant, etc. then he might have been having a particularly acute case of chemical imbalance.

cavortingcheetah
9th Apr 2014, 06:07
Many South African girls sleep in Lycra gym shorts and sleeveless T shirts.

Capetonian
9th Apr 2014, 07:24
Many South African girls sleep in Lycra gym shorts and sleeveless T shirts. ........ not in my experience, I'm happy to say.

I don't think Pistorius' performance in court is an act. I think he's desperately sorry for what he did. Doesn't make him any less guilty, doesn't change the fact that he's an arsehole and a paranoid control freak and was almost doubtless on drugs/steroids, but give the guy a break.

onetrack
9th Apr 2014, 07:28
Uncle FredAlso, has anyone determined if Oscar was using performance enhancing steroids? If so, in what amount? I know that only 2 or 3 professional athletes have ever taken them on purpose (or so they say) but should have someone slipped this into his nutritional regimen via toothpaste, at a restaurant, etc. then he might have been having a particularly acute case of chemical imbalance.The old problem of "'roid rage"? Quite possible.
I'd say, judging by Reevas text messages, he was regularly a particularly jealous, controlling type of individual, anyway - who could get exceptionally angry if it looked like a woman he wanted total possession of, wasn't prepared to play his game.

He's carefully explained away the door slam, as Reeva fled into the toilet to get away from his frightening anger - and the locked toilet door hasn't been asked about in evidence so far, which greatly surprises me.
Of course, a burglar would probably lock the door behind him - but so would a frightened girlfriend.
Then you have to ask why a burglar would go into a toilet to escape. Most burglars go for the biggest opening to the outdoors they can find, when they're disturbed.

The greatest prosecution evidence Oscar has yet to overcome is the facts that others have given witness evidence of the loud arguments just prior to the shooting - and that there was never a recorded intrusion into the gated compound in the history of the compound. So much for his constant overwhelming fear of burglars.

His evidence is pathetic, and I note one of his previous girlfriends slammed his story on [email protected] as just more lies - as she was apparently on the receiving end of plenty of them, when she was with him.

acbus1
9th Apr 2014, 07:44
Many South African girls sleep in Lycra gym shorts and sleeveless T shirts.
The same mind that constructed my previous post is wondering how you know that...:suspect: ;)

Uncle Fred
9th Apr 2014, 16:25
Capetonian,

I will indeed give the guy a break as I will defer to the judge's decision and expertise in deciding this case. The American magazine The New Yorker has had a couple of very good articles on how devastated Oscar might indeed be and how he perhaps felt very deeply for the young lass even though it looks as if he did kill her with intent if not necessarily aforethought. It is a good, albeit informal, look at the psychology that might lie behind this.
What Did Oscar Pistorius Fear When He Shot Reeva Steenkamp? : The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2014/04/what-did-oscar-pistorius-fear.html)

That however, does not prevent me from wishing to know how the events unfolded and some of the emotions and behavior leading up to what happened.

Frankly however, I am actually more interested in the court proceedings. I am not familiar with the SA system of jurisprudence and as I read of the prosecutor's tact before the bar I am shocked that the defense cannot object to Mr. Nel's demand that Oscar "take responsibility." http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial.html?hp

I am left bewildered as just how aggressive a prosecutor can be in questioning the defendant and what the defense counsel can do to parry that...

Lonewolf_50
9th Apr 2014, 16:32
Uh, the simple answer of "what did he fear" would be Reeva dumping him. Makes sense if their relationship was in a down cycle.

Not sure how that leads to gunplay ...

G-CPTN
9th Apr 2014, 16:35
Not sure how that leads to gunplay ...
A person with severe anger-management weakness is capable of anything if they are thwarted when wanting to get their way.

Uncle Fred
9th Apr 2014, 16:41
Uh, the simple answer of "what did he fear" would be Reeva dumping him. Makes sense if their relationship was in a down cycle.
Not sure how that leads to gunplay ...

I believe there is a bit of either sardonic intent with the author's use of that phrase or, as you mentioned, the loss of the relationship was a greater fear than an intruder. At least I took it that way.

In either case gunplay is obviously an extreme outcome that many of us cannot imagine.

rgbrock1
9th Apr 2014, 17:13
Capetonian:

I'm going to ask YOU this question seeing as you life there and leave the rest of the hyperbole to others.

According to what one sees or hears in the courtroom as spoken by Mr. Pestorius, he makes it seem like crime in South Africa is rampant and many fear for their lives on an almost daily basis. Is this accurate? Is it really as bad as he makes it out to be?

Dak Man
9th Apr 2014, 17:48
YES............

•More people murdered in Nyanga (Western Cape) than anywhere else in the country.

•Over One hundred and Sixty OneThousand people murdered in South Africa since 2004

•47% of all drug related crime in the country occur in the Western Cape.

•5900 crimes are reported by the SAPS everyday day!

•Over 43 people murdered on average everyday in South Africa.

•The world average for murder is 7.6 per 100 000 people. Murder in South Africa is 36.5 per 100 000.

•It`s been estimated that SA has lost R650-billion to corruption over the last 18 years.

•More than 2 million crimes were reported by the SAPS for the twelve months between 2010/2012.

•Nearly 16000 people were murdered in SA in the twelve months between 2011/2012.

•KZN is the highest murder province in South Africa. Then the Eastern Cape followed by Gauteng .

•Over 400 drug related crimes reported daily.

•Mitchells Plain in the Western Cape reports the more crime than any other precinct in the country.

•There are 29 different crime categories used by the SAPS for reporting crime stats.

•There are about 1118 precincts (police stations) in South Africa.

Capetonian
9th Apr 2014, 17:57
Much as it pains me to admit it, the answer, for many people, is 'yes'. It depends on where you live to an extent, but everyone is affected by crime and lives in fear. It must be said that there is a degree of paranoia, and fear replicating itself.

Pistorius is trying to defend his actions and his perspective and statements have to be seen in that light. He has to justify having and using guns. I don't like guns, have never used one in anger or self-defence, and have only rarely carried one, and that was with some reluctance, as they can be a greater danger to the bearer and to innocent parties than to a criminal.

rgbrock1
9th Apr 2014, 18:05
Capetonian:

Thanks for your perspective. And perhaps Mr. Pistorius is one of those who like weapons, shoots them for "practice" but when the shit hits the fan - or the perception that shit has hit the fan in his case - really should never have set hands on one in the first place.

The Mrs. and I have been having quite the heated discussion about this whole sordid affair. She is of the opinion - a strong one at that - that Pistorius did this premeditated. I do not. I believe that he was so frightened - frightened out of his wits - that he reacted in a very bad way. Perhaps he became unhinged at his perception of home invasion and reacted only the way those not trained properly would react.

I do, however, question why he didn't check to make sure his girlfriend was indeed still not in the bed beside him. That seems rather odd.

G-CPTN
9th Apr 2014, 18:09
I believe that Pistorius lived within a managed compound with security guards on-site?

It's not as if his apartment was in a public space (where marauding gangs might roam).

Dak Man
9th Apr 2014, 18:10
I might add that the period of my life that I spent in SA was awesome, the best time I've ever had - it was like the wild west.

Uncle Fred
9th Apr 2014, 18:27
Dak,

Just out of further curiosity, of the 16,000 murders (premeditated, manslaughter, etc.) how many of those actually see a perpetrator brought to book?

Are there regions where the police forces have simply abdicated control to those of ill intent?

Of those, how many of these murders are instances where the victim knows the perp? The answer to that question can give us great insight into whether the land is truly "lawless" or if scores are being settled between two individuals or gangs.

Capetonian
9th Apr 2014, 18:29
Unfortunately the qualifications and training to be a security guard (and police officer) in SA are so low, along with the corruption, that they can be, and often are, part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Many of the so-called security guards are illegal aliens without forged documentation, and thus unaccountable. Would you employ a Nigerian illegal in a position of trust?

Edit : That should have been : with forged documentation, or without documentation.

Dak Man
9th Apr 2014, 18:44
UF, sorry, no idea - I left in '97

fabs
9th Apr 2014, 19:45
Slight thread drift. I can't argue with stats I suppose but I visit SA (Western Cape, Franschhoek) very regularly. I feel safe there and in Cape Town with my family and the place is so child friendly, as everywhere (including uk) there are areas to avoid.

airship
9th Apr 2014, 20:02
What's quite scary is being confronted with perhaps decades of imprisonment (for perhaps something which requires less).

What's really scary is having to live the rest of your natural life, spending decades in prison, then to be eventually confronted by "your maker"... :(

Capetonian
10th Apr 2014, 09:43
He's getting a very hard time from Nel this morning. He admits that a firearm he was holding went off in a restaurant but his finger wasn't on the trigger. "So it went off on its own?"

He's sounding quite confident under a very tough cross-examination about this incident, I'm a little unclear why it is deemed so important in the context of the killing of Reeva Steenkamp.