flying in the UAE and keeping UK JAR/EASA ATPL current

[NineInchSnail]

hi Folks,

Any of you flying in the sandpit with one of the local airlines and keeping your type ratings on your UK JAR ATPL current by flying the same type but on your GCAA license.

I know some JAR countries (France for example) will keep a type rating valid on your JAR license if you show them evidence that you are current on the type with your current foreign airline and just need to see the hours in the logbooks certified by the company and the last LPC you did with the airline. There will be a restriction on the license such as "restricted to A6 airplanes" but at least there is no need to spend the cash to rent a sim and examiner every year to renew the type.

Does something like that exist with the UK CAA?

Thanks for any good info

Cheers

[helen-damnation]

Believe that may be the case with some JAR members but I understand that with EASA it won't happen. Hope I'm wrong :O

[EK380]

Under JAR countries like Franjce, Begium were indeed doing this. It does indeed look like this will not the case anymore under EASA. Redicilous! :ugh:

[Craggenmore]

but I understand that with EASA it won't happen. Hope I'm wrong

Happily you are wrong:). Under EASA you will be able to keep yourself annually current by faxing your renewed rating to your adopted EASA member state and therefore not fall foul of the expired license/IR/and the 5 groundschool subjects.

Note that member states will still have differences under EASA, despite it trying to achieve a level playing field. The CAA at present have NO plans to recognise Gulf ratings but other EASA participating states do.

You will need to change your JAR-FCL to an EASA license and apply to a member state that will recogonise your Gulf rating. Depending upon the state that you chose there are a couple of requirements to fulfil but this is all possible despite what you think.

You will be limited to A6 aircraft but if your Gulf examiner also happens to keep his EASA TRI/E ticket current then you get the best of both worlds!

[Mr Good Cat]

You will be limited to A6 aircraft but if your Gulf examiner also happens to keep his EASA TRI/E ticket current then you get the best of both worlds!

Dependent on two things:

(1) The particular state may demand proof of training up to standard (even if it's obvious that this is your current type)... This is because the training was not done by an approved EASA FTO. Even if it's an EASA approved examiner under the current interpretation of the rules by some states such as the UK CAA you would need to prove of at least some training towards your IR with an approved EASA FTO... I know this because I asked them directly.:ouch:

(2) The simulator must be one of the EASA approved sims. I would think that all CAE's sims are approved but as for EK's own I'm not so sure - unless they're available for hire by EASA operators... At present EK do not use the CAE joint venture sim for recurrent PPCs as it has too many differences.:ouch:


At the end of the day I'm hoping the EASA states see sense and anull the 7-year rule... It was designed to stop people getting an ATPL then not using it for over 7 years and then expecting to still have the theory knowledge to go straight back into instrument flying... :ugh::mad:

[Craggenmore]

MGC.

Stop talking to the CAA and start talking to EASA member states who will recognise your Gulf rating and flying experience.

The 7 year rule is a thing of the past with these EASA states.

[captainsmiffy]

Can anyone tell me what I would need to do? I hold a UK (JAR) ATPL and the DHC8 and EMB145 ratings have lapsed past 5 years.....my UAE GCAA ATPL has ratings on the 330/340/380. I am current on the 380. All of these ratings are the dreaded P2 (not recognised in the UK). My UK IR is approaching 6 years from last renewal but have been flying in the sandpit for the last five and a half years and thus my IR, whilst current, is an ICAO standard one. My only current ratings are thus the airbus family on my UAE licence with an ICAO IR. am worried that my professional livelihood is now in serious doubt should I return to the UK, despite having been in continuous employment as a pilot for the last 25 years, the last 5 of which have been in wide-body ops into and out of the UK and worldwide?! This whole licensing and rating thing is just insane! How do I protect my UK IR and can I transfer ratings to an EASA licence from my GCAA one with the P2 on it (am trapped on the 380 for the foreseeable future with no upgrade possible without 2500 hours on type)? Any advice gratefully accepted.....

[BANANASBANANAS]

I'm not sure if this is still an option or not but a friend of mine was in a not dissimilar situation. He went to UK, hired a C172 with airways kit and did an I/R on the C172 which was also his 'type rating' as he was operating on an overseas licence and had no current type on his UK JAR licence to transfer to his new EASA licence. As a stop gap measure it proved very effective.

[falconeasydriver]

Happily you are wrong. Under EASA you will be able to keep yourself annually current by faxing your renewed rating to your adopted EASA member state and therefore not fall foul of the expired license/IR/and the 5 groundschool subjects.

Note that member states will still have differences under EASA, despite it trying to achieve a level playing field. The CAA at present have NO plans to recognise Gulf ratings but other EASA participating states do.

You will need to change your JAR-FCL to an EASA license and apply to a member state that will recogonise your Gulf rating. Depending upon the state that you chose there are a couple of requirements to fulfil but this is all possible despite what you think.

You will be limited to A6 aircraft but if your Gulf examiner also happens to keep his EASA TRI/E ticket current then you get the best of both worlds!

I can confirm this to be the case having spoken to several receptive authorities:ok:

[EK380]

FalconEasy; you mean the text you quote in your post is "correct"?
Thanks for clarification.

[Craggenmore]

EK380,

For non-lapsed JAA UK and JAR-FCL license holders with valid Class 1 medicals, it is all correct with the change to EASA - just don't expect the CAA to recogonise you at this moment in time.

Many other member states will get you into their system and will recognise you as per my post above. It just takes time, a few phone calls, a bit of money and some form filling.

Falcon - good man..!!

[flyhigh2fly]

How does it work if you want to convert a 737 TR on a GCAA licence to EASA? Still go and find a EASA country that will accept it, and do the paperwork, pay fee etc etc? Easy done?

Thanks

[Craggenmore]

you will also need to prove your Level 6 English proficiency to convert to EASA if not previously done.

Initial Jar Fcls don't state a figure but are rated at level 4 they informed me!

:ugh:

[de facto]

EK380

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Earth, where else?
Posts: 156
Under JAR countries like Franjce, Begium were indeed doing this. It does indeed look like this will not the case anymore under EASA. Redicilous!


I also find tiping fm ifone difficuilt:E

[gardenshed]

Can any body put up a list of countries other than the UK that will accept the renewals from the Gulf area. So that I can keep up my EASA licence.

Cheers.

[8che]

Need to tone it down a bit there Craggenmore.

Level 6 is for life. There is no requirement to renew it for the EASA issue.

[BANANASBANANAS]

There are quite a few exceptions to your statement 8che.

When I converted my JAA ATPL (initially awarded before English competency formally required) to EASA ATPL I was exempted the level 6 check because of my military background but my colleague going through the exact same process had to find an examiner at v short notice in Aviation House to conduct a (level 6) English test. And my colleague is a BRIT, TRE in a non EASA country and can award level 4/5/6 English to trainees.

There are a lot of poorly thought out/not thought out at all loose ends in the entire transition process imho.

[8che]

There are no exceptions to what I just said.

Craggenmore said you have to RENEW level 6. You dont.

The fact you didnt have one in the first place is something different.

[Craggenmore]

Yes 8che. Level 6 is for life. Initial Jar Fcl are level 4 thus needing to prove level 6 to move EASA.

Good spot!

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain :ugh:

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

[777X]

I think this question has already been asked but no answers are forthcoming..

How do I get a GCAA UAE type rating onto my UK issued EASA license with only FO time on type (say 500h on. 777) and actually use the rating in Europe. Somebody said the P2 restriction on rating can never be lifted, and as such it's useless to operators outside of the UAE.

I've heard of guys with '000s of hours on type but the UK CAA won't put the rating on part 1 of license. Is this another trap ?

[CautionShortRunway]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAA_CAP%20804.pdf

For Type Rating under CAP804

FCL.740 Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
(a) The period of validity of class and type ratings shall be 1 year,

The only ways to continue exercising the type rating beyond 1 year are

FCL.740 (b) Renewal or FCL.740.A Revalidation. No exceptions in the UK.

If you are not planning on flying with EASA carrier you won't need a type rating in your license. EASA license does not expire.

If you still hold an UK/JAA license here are instructions how to convert. Converting UK and JAA Licences and Ratings to Part FCL | Commercial Pilots | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=2725&pagetype=65&appid=54&mode=summary&appprocsum=20)


For the instrument rating under CAP804

FCL.625 IR(A) – Validity, revalidation and renewal
(a) Validity. An IR(A) shall be valid for 1 year.
(b) Revalidation
(c) Renewal.
(d) If the IR(A) has not been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years, the holder will be required to pass again the IR theoretical knowledge examination and skill test.
*The UK CAA has issued an exemption against FCL.625(d) (see paragraph 5.3)

5.3 FCL.625(d): IR Renewal requirement for pilots who hold or have held an IR on
another licence or a UK Military Green Rating
The UK CAA has issued an exemption such that where a pilot holds or has held an
Instrument Rating issued by a third country and that rating is compliant with Annex I to
the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the applicability of FCL.625 IR(c) and (d)
may be based on the validity dates of the Instrument Rating of that other country. The
effect of this exemption is that to renew the IR on a UK issued licence:
(i) a pilot with a current and valid 3rd country IR shall complete the revalidation
requirements of FCL.625(b) and the aircraft category specific requirements for
revalidation of the Part-FCL IR; meaning that he must pass the proficiency check,
but is not required to undergo training or to re-take the theoretical knowledge
examinations; or
(ii) a pilot who held a 3rd country IR that is no longer valid but had been revalidated
or renewed within the preceding 7 years shall comply with the renewal
requirements of FCL.625 IR(c), but is not required to re-take the theoretical
knowledge examinations.

[Fart Master]

ORS 4 No. 974. (CAA website)

The one that I and a few others campaigned for. Basically as long as you've previously been issued an EASA IR (Incl the UK) and presently hold an ICAO one you're exempt.

In fact even if you let your ICAO IR lapse by more than 7 years the only thing you have to do to regain your EASA IR is an assessment and required retraining with an ATO prior to retest.

C.

[727Man]

Held a UK JAA Licence since 2006, renewed it in 2011, and converted it to
EASA CPL 2015, my last IR on licence was 2007, been flying in the Middle East/Africa and have held various licences and always current IR from them.

Could not add type and IR to my UK Licence as no aircraft type on UK register.
Returned to UK and now type on UK register ( I now have the the type and IR on my UK EASA CPL and now wont issue me with a UK EASA ATPL because of the 7 year rule, CAA said my IR had lapsed more than 7 years. I also completed an A320 type rating in 2012 at Airbus, (I have a course completion certificate, LPC check form signed and stamped by Airbus Toulouse TRTO, certain Middle East Airline would not allow Airbus to sign my UK CAA paperwork?):ugh:

I also hold an FAA ATP, CAA has my logbooks, surely they could see Ive been flying in other countries.

Is there any reference to the EASA regulations or surely should be some dispensation to the below ruling in EASA land?

5.3 FCL.625(d): IR Renewal requirement for pilots who hold or have held an IR on
another licence or a UK Military Green Rating
The UK CAA has issued an exemption such that where a pilot holds or has held an
Instrument Rating issued by a third country and that rating is compliant with Annex I to
the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the applicability of FCL.625 IR(c) and (d)
may be based on the validity dates of the Instrument Rating of that other country. The
effect of this exemption is that to renew the IR on a UK issued licence:
(i) a pilot with a current and valid 3rd country IR shall complete the revalidation
requirements of FCL.625(b) and the aircraft category specific requirements for
revalidation of the Part-FCL IR; meaning that he must pass the proficiency check,
but is not required to undergo training or to re-take the theoretical knowledge
examinations; or
(ii) a pilot who held a 3rd country IR that is no longer valid but had been revalidated
or renewed within the preceding 7 years shall comply with the renewal
requirements of FCL.625 IR(c), but is not required to re-take the theoretical
knowledge examinations.

[EK380]

Unfortunately I'm afraid there isn't ...

I therefore strongly advocate to keep an EASA rating valid on your EASA license at all times; as a minimum do it every 3 years (actually just before 3 years).

More than 3 years of an expired rating requires you to do the full type rating again, while before you normally get away with one training sim and then the proficiency check. Looking over a three year period it becomes the cheapest option if you are not using the EASA license during that time.

The above should not cost you more than about 1000GBP/1200EUR per year; cheap insurance for most.

[Neptune262]

Regarding ICAO English Language proficiency assessment, at least for ATCOs - EASA has a difference against ICAO regarding level 6, stating it does require re-assessment.

Under EASA, level 6 is retested every 9 years https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Annex%20I%20to%20ED%20Decision%202015-010-R_0.pdf )

Text as follows:

AMC1 ATCO.B.035(a)(3)(i) Validity of language proficiency endorsement
VALIDITY OF THE LANGUAGE ENDORSEMENT OF PROFICIENCY LEVEL 6 IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE
When replacing the licences according to Article 8(1) of Regulation (EU) 2015/340, the validity period for
the expert level (level six) language proficiency endorsements shall be introduced into the new licence.
The nine-year validity period for an expert level (level six) language proficiency endorsement in English
acquired before 30 June 2015 shall be counted from the date of the issue of the new licence or from the
date of the assessment, whichever occurs first.

And for EU Reg 2015/340:

ATCO.B.035 Validity of language proficiency endorsement
(a) The validity of the language proficiency endorsement, depending on the level determined in accordance with
Appendix 1 of Annex I, shall be:
(1) for operational level (level four), three years from the date of assessment; or
(2) for extended level (level five), six years from the date of assessment;
6.3.2015 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 63/23
(3) for expert level (level six):
(i) nine years from the date of assessment, for the English language;
(ii) unlimited, for any other language(s) referred to in ATCO.B.030(a).

Did pilot regs also change?

[zxccxz]

Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) confirms that they can keep a type rating alive indefinitely.
The conditions:
1) Send every year the LPC from the (ICAO) state you are currently operating in
2) They will restrict your licence to that specific country only (so you cannot operate in europe until you pass an LPC, without any training just a check)

Look here for the EASA reference (which should apply for all the EASA states..)
https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/aircrew-consolidated-versions_1.zip


Article 8
Conditions for the acceptance of licences from third countries

Aeroplane or helicopter type ratings may be issued to holders of Part-FCL licences that comply with the requirements for the issue of those ratings established by a third country. Such ratings will be restricted to aircraft registered in that third country. This restriction may be removed when the pilot complies with the requirements in point C.1 of Annex III.



C. ACCEPTANCE OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS

1. A valid class or type rating contained in a licence issued by a third country may be inserted in a Part-FCL licence provided that the applicant:

(a) complies with the experience requirements and the prerequisites for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;
(b) passes the relevant skill test for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;
(c) is in current flying practice;
(d) has no less than:
(i) for aeroplane class ratings, 100 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that class;
(ii) for aeroplane type ratings, 500 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that type;
(iii) for single-engine helicopters with a maximum certificated take-off mass of up to 3 175 kg, 100 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that type;
(iv) for all other helicopters, 350 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that class.



This are the extracts of 3 emails, directly from the IAA licensing office:

No problem doing an LPC on Chinese aircraft but I will be restricting your type rating to Chinese Registered Aircraft
Only but at least it will keep your rating current until you return to Europe.

Yes no problem renewing your type rating based on an ICAO LPC so please yes forward me a copy of your Chinese
licence and LPC so I can renew the type rating. A lot of pilots are in the same position as yourself and they are very
happy with EASA rules to keep the type rating current. But if you require to use your EASA licence again on the
B737, you will have to complete an LPC in an approved EASA simulator with an EASA examiner to take the restriction
off.

see Annex 3, Section C of EU regulation 1178-2011 (as amended)

[LH777]

I left the UK back in 2003 with a UK ATPL and flying the B737.
Been flying the B737 and then B777 in Australia since then.
I recently contacted UK CAA to see what I had to do to transfer to an EASA ATPL - they replied:
- initial medical at Gatwick
- skills test/IR in B777 sim with TRE
- TRE will check level 6 english during sim check
- pay the fee

[8che]

EK380,

Just to point out if you are flying the aircraft type on your ICAO license and you have that same rating on the EASA you are exempt from any additional training to renew even if it is over 3 years. One EASA ATO tried that trick with me last year until I provided the EASA derogation and letter from the UK CAA confirming this. Soon as they received it they agreed its just a simple LPC when you want to use the EASA rating again. How could it be any different when you consider to transfer the type to the EASA license in the first place requires only one LPC and a visit to the CAA with the appropriate fee.

[727Man]

Anyone had any luck lately with the UK CAA? Im in the process at the moment
Cap 804 had an exemption to the 7 year rule.

7 Year rule
Held a UK JAA Licence since 2006, renewed it in 2011, and converted it to
EASA CPL 2015, my last IR on licence was 2007, been flying in the Middle East/Africa and have held various licences and always current IR from them.

Could not add type and IR to my UK Licence as no aircraft type on UK register.
Returned to UK and now type on UK register ( I now have the the type and IR on my UK EASA CPL and now wont issue me with a UK EASA ATPL because of the 7 year rule, CAA said my IR had lapsed more than 7 years. I also completed an A320 type rating in 2012 at Airbus, (I have a course completion certificate, LPC check form signed and stamped by Airbus Toulouse TRTO, certain Middle East Airline would not allow Airbus to sign my UK CAA paperwork?)

I also hold an FAA ATP, CAA has my logbooks, surely they could see Ive been flying in other countries.

Is there any reference to the EASA regulations or surely should be some dispensation to the below ruling in EASA land?

5.3 FCL.625(d): IR Renewal requirement for pilots who hold or have held an IR on
another licence or a UK Military Green Rating
The UK CAA has issued an exemption such that where a pilot holds or has held an
Instrument Rating issued by a third country and that rating is compliant with Annex I to
the Convention on International Civil Aviation, the applicability of FCL.625 IR(c) and (d)
may be based on the validity dates of the Instrument Rating of that other country. The
effect of this exemption is that to renew the IR on a UK issued licence:
(i) a pilot with a current and valid 3rd country IR shall complete the revalidation
requirements of FCL.625(b) and the aircraft category specific requirements for
revalidation of the Part-FCL IR; meaning that he must pass the proficiency check,
but is not required to undergo training or to re-take the theoretical knowledge
examinations; or
(ii) a pilot who held a 3rd country IR that is no longer valid but had been revalidated
or renewed within the preceding 7 years shall comply with the renewal
requirements of FCL.625 IR(c), but is not required to re-take the theoretical
knowledge examinations.

[737 CL]

Hi , I need help. I have an Uk EASA ATPL with B737 IR and LV But I am Actually flying with an ICAO ATPL B737 with no plan to use the EASA license. I understand As I am Current on the ICAO License nor my IR and my 14 theoretical exams are at risk. In order to obtain my EASA License alive again I would only need an Skill test with an EASA TRE. Is that correct?