EU Reject Ryanair takeover of Aer Lingus

[EI-A330-300]

The Sunday Business Post (http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/Ryanair+says+EU+has+rejected+its+bid+for+Aer+Lingus/id/19410615-5218-511a-363c-3a7513934076)

Excellent News to say the least.

[Aerlingus231]

Excellent news. Made my day.

[bigjim99]

If only we had a 'like' button....

[floss689]

Great news! Now how long will MOL drag it out in court for?

[No RYR for me]

Any other airline would have gotten an ok based on the plan.... Now MOL finds out why it is important to have friends in business and politics too... :ok:

You get what you pay for..... :D

[Vapor]

I don't think this is the last we will hear about this.

Ryanair are going to take the EU Commission to court for political bias.

[MCDU2]

FR are going to take the EUROPEAN Union to the EUROPEAN Courts. Hhhmmm. Now lets see how that one will work out. Great for the law firms.

[EI-A330-300]

I think FR paying Flybe or giving them a gift which ever you want to call it dosn't sit well with the EU and if they fail to make a profit FR give them another gift. If BE were not getting cash and the EU rejected then FR may have a case but because they are being very generous to BE they have failed.

FR can't say that other takeovers have being cleared like BA/BMI etc because FR are the only ones paying carriers to take the routes to get control.

[MCDU2]

And whilst he appeals Flybe will be haemorrhaging more cash and laying off more staff thus undermining the whole charade even further.

So much for him saying he was happy to sell his shares. That was the mantra only up until 6 months ago. Its all getting a bit personal now isn't it. Wonder if the FR board will step in and order the shares to be sold off and get him focusing on the core business. Mind you the UK Competition authority still has to report and may well bring more bad news.

[missterrible]

@MCDU2

Be careful what you ask for. If FR sell or are forced to sell Aer Lingus would be in play big time.

[DollarBill]

Indeed. A sharp drop in the EI shareprice could be an opportuntiy for an asset stripping hedge fund to enter the fray.


EI are doing well but do need to have a long term plan in place. Perhaps a partnership with EY could be the answer. But EY are still tight lipped about their plans. They are still a small airline in a big industry that is undergoing mergers and bankruptcies atm.

The Sunday Business Post (http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/COMMENT%3A+Where+now+for+Aer+Lingus%3F/id/19410615-5218-511a-48b5-e96cf1346495)

The recent results are very good but don't in themselves give EI longevity:
Aer Lingus: underlying profits rise for ‘Ireland’s civilised airline’, but beware any fall in RASK | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/aer-lingus-underlying-profits-rise-for-irelands-civilised-airline-but-beware-any-fall-in-rask-97103)

Apart from the expected legal challenge to any EU decision there is the response of FR to consider. Will they flood the Irish market to try to kill EI that way? Will the long anticipated RyanAtlantic become reality? Will they make a big order with Boeing?

[Zacbranigan]

@ misterrible,

Nothing in life/business is certain but in this case it is almost certainly better the devil you don't know , then the fork tailed :mad: you do know...

:E

[sunday8pm]

If FR fail in the courts I would expect this to happen. Flight for flight price undercutting in Europe certainly. RyanAtlantic maybe will have to wait a bit longer.

[Blind Squirrel]

If FR fail in the courts I would expect this to happen. Flight for flight price undercutting in Europe certainly. RyanAtlantic maybe will have to wait a bit longer.

Personally I don't see either happening. FR's business model does not consist of winning head-to-head competitions with other airlines, but of exploiting local monopolies. And nothing they do confers any advantage over others already operating a transatlantic route. A twenty-five-minute turnaround at EWR, even if it were achievable, does not make any difference when an FR aircraft, like all others, gets to cross the Atlantic and generate revenue just twice in each twenty-four-hour period.

[EI-A330-300]

Aer Lingus: Ryanair should never have launched takeover bid | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/aer-lingus-ryanair-should-never-have-launched-takeover-bid-584502.html)

Aer Lingus have released a strong statement which says Ryanair should never have launched a takeover bid for the airline.

The carrier was commenting after the EU blocked Ryanair's bid earlier.

The budget airline has described the decision as a "political one", which isn't based on competition law.

Ryanair bosses have now instructed company lawyers to appeal the block.

Aer Lingus meanwhile says it is looking forward to continuing to assist the UK Competition Commission in its ongoing investigation into the anti-competitive effects of Ryanair’s minority shareholding.

Ryanair says EC intends to block Aer Lingus deal - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0212/367324-chambers-ireland-worried-about-heathrow-slots/)
In a statement, Flybe said it is disappointed by today's news and will await the outcome of the appeal process Ryanair referred to in its statement

Not suprised when they will not be getting lots of cash.

[Noxegon]

Air Asia X proved that you don't have to have the same schedule every day.

There's no reason why a fully utilised A330 couldn't do three transatlantic crossings every 24 hours. Using DUB-JFK as an example, you could have:

0700 DUB arrives 0900 JFK
1100 JFK arrives 2200 DUB
2400 DUB arrives 0200 JFK
0400 JFK arrives 1500 DUB
1700 DUB arrives 1900 JFK
2100 JFK arrives 1000 DUB

...etc. Okay, there's no time for maintenance in that, but with a large enough fleet you can rotate a spare in and out.

[Tableview]

There are several flaws in your argument.

That type of irregular scheduling discourages high revenue passengers.

Arriving in JFK at 0200 is not going attract much high yield, and nor is departing at 0400. You also have to think of crew rostering, night flying curfews (I don't know what the curfew is at JFK if any).

And that's just looking at the basics.

[Aerlingus231]

Also I'm pretty sure you're only allowed fly west/east across the Atlantic at certain times of the day, westbound in the day, eastbound at night.

[Skipness One Echo]

You can fly any way at any time, however against the flow you will be at a sub optimal flight level.

[Cyrano]

Also I'm pretty sure you're only allowed fly west/east across the Atlantic at certain times of the day, westbound in the day, eastbound at night.

:confused: Who's stopping you? As long as the airport is open, who's dictating when you can fly where?

There are several daytime eastbound flights which leave NYC/BOS in the morning and arrive in Europe (mostly LHR) in the evening. The reason there aren't more is that most passengers expect an overnight flight (spend your night travelling rather than a business day or a holiday day), plus an evening departure and morning arrival gives more short-haul connection opportunities on each end.

That type of irregular scheduling discourages high revenue passengers.
Absolutely true - so the question is whether getting a couple of extra round trips worth of revenue out of the aircraft every week outweighs that loss.

[racedo]

I don't think this is the last we will hear about this.

Ryanair are going to take the EU Commission to court for political bias. Figured it was always going to head down that route anyway. Going to be costly for EU.

Something that has occured to me is that Ryanair have jumped the EU announcement of this by a couple of weeks. EU will now have to start scrambling on it well before they expected.

[Laasjet]

I don't credit the EU with much up top but I would think that they would have thought through that senario.

Am I alone in thinking that MOL is becoming a bit of a liability. His outpourings of hate and innuendo are remembered and there comes a time, with people like that, to call in the insults.

Perhaps they would have done better if the CEO had acted in a more professionally manner in times gone by?

Is it time for him to take his wealth and play with the horses at Giggistown?

[bucko]

Something similar happened with the aborted UPS-TNT merger, UPS abandoned it on the 14th January after been told by the EC it was going to be blocked, after they had also provided a lengthy list of proposed remedies. The official announcement came from the EC over 2 weeks later on the 30th January.

[Leg]

Very bad news, the EU is akin to a headless chicken, Ducksie will win this on eventually, he has other irons in the fire....

[Leg]

A part government owned airline is better than an independent airline, get a grip for goodness sake, Lingus will be long gone as BE goes from a blip, to an upward trajectory. :ok:

And to put you straight, NO Ryanair money would come to the UK business, so your last comment is baseless.

[BEagle]

Excellent news that the attempted takeover of Aer Lingus has been blocked!

I'm surprised that flybe thought that it had any chance of succeeding.

[Leg]

Lets just wait and see, the fat lady is nowhere to seen yet. ;)

[Rivet Joint]

Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry couldn't resist! ;)

[sunday8pm]

You just have to wonder whether the timing of the FR statement wasn't a little calculated. The EU still say that any final decision has yet to be made. They're effectively issuing warning in public that if it is a no they're going to be angry fight it all the way. Bully boy tactics really.

Regarding the bid itself its hard to disagree with those of the opinion that Flybe would just become a Ryanair pup and once their time is up would be suitably squashed. It seems the EU might see it this way too and the only way to stop FR collecting all the chess pieces in the long-term is by getting someone else to buy EI. Unless of course you believe they'll survive an FR competition onslaught in the wake of the EU saying no again.

[PAXboy]

MoL really doesn't care which method he uses to squash EI - as long as he can be the winner. If the EU does reject this, it will just take him a bit longer and he'll have to spend a bit more money. :hmm:

[riptack]

I don't understand MOL's obsession with EI, but perhaps there is something driving it that I'm unaware of. I would have thought he'd be better employed doing what he and FR have been incredibly successful at - low cost flying.


However I do think if FR could have squashed EI on competition/price terms they would have done it long ago. The fact remains that EI have survived despite sharing a homebase with FR and flying to a substantial number of similar destinations. There remains an adequate number of Irish originating passengers who will choose EI over FR, for a myriad of reasons such as just pure snob value, a perceived difference in quality of service, connection hubs etc.

[Aisle2c]

I don't understand MOL's obsession with EI, but perhaps there is something driving it that I'm unaware of. I would have thought he'd be better employed doing what he and FR have been incredibly successful at - low cost flying.

Logically you would think it's the North American potential. Apart from that, the only other possibility is single-minded hatred on his part, and using Ryanair's money to prove a point.

I'm delighted the EU have stopped this yet again. We've seen previously how Ryanair operate in stamping out opponents who set up new routes. I can't just hop in a car and drive to Berlin - being an island nation we are in a fairly unique situation. As things stand, no other airline would consider coming into Ireland because of what Ryanair would do on the route.

[lexoncd]

The Ryanair business model is well known and though I think with a more customer centric focus could achieve significantly more than they currently do the figures speak for themselves.

If you move to long haul the operation has to change. hand luggage only? No inflight catering? No seat recline? No pre assigned seating? Acquiring EI gives him a starting point on which to expand. Change the EI model as required so.... Luggage charges, pre booked meal charge, IFE charge, etc etc but you don't confuse the public with the Ryanair model. Establish Charloi as a European hub and it makes sense at the right price.

[bluecode]

Whether you are for or against Ryanair on this one. I think in the end they will win. Someone said it already. If it was any other airline, it would have been approved. It is political bias against Ryanair and the courts most likely will agree.

You have to be incredibly naive to think the MoL didn't anticipate this outcome.

He'll be ready with his big guns.

It's my view that he's been going easy on Aer Lingus because he has an interest in keeping it going right now. If the courts go against Ryanair, which I doubt and he sells his shareholding. The gloves will come off. He drive Aer Lingus into the ground.

He wins either way. It's just good business. Aer Lingus is I'm a afraid, a bit of a sacred cow but it won't escape the attentions of the wolf.

[PAXboy]

That is indeed the story, bluecode, as I see it. For MoL, it's no longer about business pure and simple. The man has been rejected by many over his life and he is going to prove that he is 'King of the Castle' and is 'The Daddy' or whatever phrase you choose.

When someone has had as much success as he has done - the brain does get changed. He knows how brilliant he is and is going to prove it to all those nasty people who did him down and criticised him before.

One of his earlier targets was to carry more pax p.a. than BA, which he achieved. He said (along the lines of, if I recall correctly) that he was going to show the Brits what a Paddy could do. For MoL, it is all personal. Whether it was at the outset, I have no means of knowing.

[sunday8pm]

MoL is no great fan of Brussels or Aer Lingus and this is an opportunity to slap one in the face and kill the other. FR will have a case in court if they have met all the initial EU concerns as they state to have done.

[bluecode]

I agree paxboy, not sure about the rejection thing but it is about beating the others business wise and probably personally. I actually know someone like that currently on a dizzy rise to the top in a slightly different aviation sector. You can guess who his business hero is. You will be hearing about him in due course. Oddly enough he is a pilot but shares MoL's attitude to pilots.

My close association with him has led to some insight into O'Leary. I suspect their personalities are comparable. Both are business pscyhopaths, both prone to litigation, both use people for their own ends and dispense with them without thought when no longer useful. Both are charismatic in person and deadly as enemies.

Neither will let go of their ambitions and will happily destroy their rivals.

Which leads me to believe that MoL will win this in the end. As for the other guy. He'll win too and I'm staying on for the ride.

They are not like the rest of us.

[Tableview]

MoL will win eventually, he'll end up acquiring EI for a song when it becomes worthless, or it will simply disappear and he'll fill the vacuum. Very sad, but I can't see the Irish government having the will or the resources to keep the carrier going for ever.

[j636]

all the initial EU concerns as they state to have done.

With all due respect how have they meet the terms, giving up 43 EI routes, EI serve the majority of routes twice daily + so giving BE only 9 Airbus aircraft for 43 routes is a joke. EI operate 37 Airbus and around 12 ATR (or will for S13). 43 routes if the majority of EI network and BE are expected to provide the same level of service. Most EI flights are 2h30m so at most BE would get per aircraft is 4 rotations per day. There is no way if BE used there own aircraft they could provide the level of service with aircraft that EI are doing on these 43 routes. There CEO gave pathetic interview on radio earlier this week and it was very clear he has done very little research into EI and the way they operate. All he see's is €€€.

[Aerlingus231]

Very sad, but I can't see the Irish government having the will or the resources to keep the carrier going for ever.

But the airline is doing a fine job of keeping itself going, three years now it's declared a profit and passenger numbers are at an all time high. I don't think the government need to do anything to keep EI going for a long time more. The only protection the government was providing here was for the consumer, not the company. The case may have been different if EI was failing, but at the moment it has the 3rd highest profit margin of an airline in Europe, so the only interests the government has protected are those of the people who elected them.

[Jack1985]

MoL will win eventually, he'll end up acquiring EI for a song when it becomes worthless, or it will simply disappear and he'll fill the vacuum. Very sad, but I can't see the Irish government having the will or the resources to keep the carrier going for ever.

Frankly a laughable statement.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Ryanair are going to take the EU Commission to court for political bias.
I am no lover of MOL..This is what Irks people against the EU..It's not their business...

[Tooloose]

If you are correct that it is none of their business then a lot of people have been wasting a lot of time and resources. can you please explain the basis for your statement?

[Ernest Lanc's]

The EU are very good at wasting money..I that they cannot be surpassed.

I will tell you who it should be up to..Ryanair who own 29.4% or Aer Lingus, and 25.4% ..In the hands of the Irish government..

It's up to MOL and the Ireish bureaucrats and all shareholders, to sort who owns Aer Lingus, not the EU.


then a lot of people have been wasting a lot of time and resources

Yes: That's my point..What EU interference does not wast time and money?..I am not keen on MOL, but Aer Lingus could probably do worse, than take up the Harp.

[Tooloose]

If it were left up to the Irish Govt FR would not take over EI. At least the EU gives FR a hearing. Most people familiar with the issues know that the remedies proposed by Ryanair were a transparent charade to allow FR to liquidate EI and most likely BE too having stripped all the assets by, for example, pocketing over €900m in cash selling LHR slots to BA etc.

[jdcg]

Of course it's the EU's business. It's thanks to the EU that we have pan European open skies etc so the onus is on them to ensure that companies don't abuse that opportunity to create unfair monopolies. Whether this constitutes an example of that is for them and the courts to decide.

[Epsomdog]

For those of you struggling to find a reason why Ryanair want to takeover EI.

The DUB - LHR route is the highest density route between IRE & the UK with in excess of 400,000 pax in the last year. Mol has no interest in operation into LHR but wants to force all those pax onto his own point to point services within Europe.

Woe betide anyone that wants to fly long haul eastbound! They'll have to put up with a 2/3 hr transfer to LHR or pay BA mega bucks. No wonder Ryanair managed to get BA onside!

[Tableview]

Much as I despise his business ethics, or lack of, O'Leary could outsmart the whole of the EU in his sleep. And he will. Wait.

[The SSK]

And I disagree with you Tableview. I believe that if he gets heavy with DG COMP, he will get his backside kicked from here to kingdom come. They are sitting on two dozen state-aid cases involving Ryanair airports, so far they haven't shown much inclination to move against him. He will discover that the people he calls bad names carry very big sticks.

[PAXboy]

bluecodeBoth are business pscyhopaths, both prone to litigation, both use people for their own ends and dispense with them without thought when no longer useful. Both are charismatic in person and deadly as enemies. Exactly my assessment.

Having observed MoL from his first emergence and been in (many) lines of business since I started work in 1978 (including internationally and the City of London) I have seen others like him. In this, he will either win or be dead (from natural causes I hasten to add).

I do not wish him ill but I do not wish to travel on his airline. I have done so on a couple of occasions, when I had no other easy choice..

[CPL593H]

God, your all a bunch of complete Luddites. High fare airlines have no future, and you are only denying the inevitable. I'm sure some of you would be content that flying reverted to be a luxury that only the rich could afford. This is 2013, not 1953. The lack of consideration being made on this thread about the customer is appalling.

:ugh:

[Aerlingus231]

I'm sure some of you would be content that flying reverted to be a luxury that only the rich could afford. This is 2013, not 1953. The lack of consideration being made on this thread about the customer is appalling.
I think in fact you'll find that most people on here were actually against this takeover bid and against the resulting high prices that Ryanair would have offered had it a monopoly on 80% of the traffic out of Ireland.

Very few on here wanted the high prices associated with this bid going through.

Also, there is indeed a market for high service carriers and the resulting higher fees. It's certainly not as big as that for low cost, but it's there all right, and clearly Aer Lingus is making it work.

[CPL593H]

The amount of MOL bashing on this thread, along with most threads, is unbelievable.

You all seem to be forgetting that this is a man who has created the most flight crew jobs in Europe. He has enabled many with low hours to get a foot in the door in aviation, and many more in the future as Ryanair grows. Hopefully I will be one of them.

On top of that, Ryanair has the lowest fares which has enabled many people on lower incomes the chance to holiday abroad in destinations once only for the rich, rather than spend summer in somewhere miserable like Blackpool. Lowest fleet age. Most efficient service.

And yet, you berate this man on the fact that he is a successful businessman and treat the fact that he wants to compete and knock **** out of other airlines as if it were some sort of abnormality in the business world. Some of the regular flyers on here have just got an axe to grind because either they felt ripped off paying £3 for a tea or because their bum hurt from sitting on Ryanair's standard seats.

[Aerlingus231]

And yet, you berate this man on the fact that he is a successful businessman and treat the fact that he wants to compete and knock **** out of other airlines as if it were some sort of abnormality in the business world. Some of the regular flyers on here have just got an axe to grind because either they felt ripped off paying £3 for a tea or because their bum hurt from sitting on Ryanair's standard seats.

Read back again and I think you'll see that most people on here all acknowledge how great a business man MOL is. He has indeed made travel far far cheaper for all of us. He's an amazing business man, so good that you'd be mad not to think that if he had a monopoly on traffic too and from an ISLAND that he wouldn't milk every last opportunity out of it. Fare's would skyrocket, if they didn't then MOL is an eejit and an awful business man. FR isn't here to bring down fares, it's here to make a profit. I don't see how anyone can't see that without competition Ryanair's prices would be high.

[CPL593H]

@AerLingus231

Oh yes, because Aer Lingus are currently providing stiff competition to Ryanair in terms of fare prices :hmm: Idiots with too much money and idiots who have been hurt from some 'dreadful' Ryanair experience where the tea was too cold, opt for Aer Lingus on the similar routes just because it isn't Ryanair. People want cheap fares, and if you can't provide that, sorry you have no place in the future of aviation.

To quote MOL in reference to British Airways:

'Eventually there'll be one last British Airways flight with a bunch of old toffee-nosed snobs on it but all the kids of the toffee nosed snobs will be flying on Ryanair'

(Michael O'Leary, Plane Speaking, Edited by Paul Kilduff, 2010)

[CPL593H]

@AerLingus231

If Aer Lingus were put in it's grave, and Ryanair had dominance of the routes in and out of Ireland, I highly doubt that prices would 'skyrocket'. They wouldn't be any more than what Aer Lingus are currently charging. Considering most passengers travel for pleasure, putting up the price significantly would mean that many won't bother to travel at all. You would simply drive away custom. Where's the sense in that? Of course them who must travel, say between London and Dublin for work would obviously be forced into paying the higher fares. But it would be killing off a massive customer type base.

[Aerlingus231]

Oh yes, because Aer Lingus are currently providing stiff competition to Ryanair in terms of fare prices Idiots with too much money and idiots who have been hurt from some 'dreadful' Ryanair experience where the tea was too cold, opt for Aer Lingus on the similar routes just because it isn't Ryanair. People want cheap fares, and if you can't provide that, sorry you have no place in the future of aviation.
If Aer Lingus weren't providing proper competition then no one wold fly on them and everyone would fly on Ryanair, but seeing as Aer Lingus has over taken them to become Ireland's largest carrier again, clearly they're putting up a good fight and getting the customers back that they lost in recent years. I also don't think you realise that some people want more than just a cheap flight, but also connections, easy ways to change their ittinery, a loyalty system, flying to central airports etc. There is obviously a market for both the cheap and cheerful type flights, and the more expensive flights to central airports with associated higher levels of service that go with it.

If Aer Lingus were put in it's grave, and Ryanair had dominance of the routes in and out of Ireland, I highly doubt that prices would 'skyrocket'. They wouldn't be any more than what Aer Lingus are currently charging. Considering most passengers travel for pleasure, putting up the price significantly would mean that many won't bother to travel at all. You would simply drive away custom. Where's the sense in that? Of course them who must travel, say between London and Dublin for work would obviously be forced into paying the higher fares. But it would be killing off a massive customer type base.
Aer Lingus are not an expensive airline, you don't seem to realize this. On some flights they are able to charge more because people are willing to pay the premium for the higher level of service, but on a lot of flights Aer Lingus are the same, or in some cases cheaper than Ryanair when compared to each other.

If MOL held a monopoly and didn't raise prices considerably then he's an awful business man. And the money in this world is in the business travel to the likes of London, Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam. That's where the big bucks are, and if he's the only one flying those routes then you can bet that he'll charge high prices as business people will have to travel on those routes.

[CPL593H]

@Aerlingus231

Are you seriously suggesting that there is a future in business class travel on flights of two hours or less? Not buying that argument buddy.

I have already agreed, yes those that need and must travel between Ireland and these cities are going to pay any price that is applied to the ticket. BUT in the process of raising fares, MOL will lose his core flyers, those flying for pleasure. They don't have to fly. They can stay at home and play chess over summer or dig the garden, rather than fork out ridiculous sums of money to visit landmarks in Berlin or Paris. You don't encourage sales by putting up the price. Yes MOL can exploit the business class who have no choice, but he couldn't survive on them alone.

You will find that most people would do pretty much anything, and put up with pretty much anything, to get a cheap flight. Who want's to pay three, four or even five times the price of what Ryanair is offering simply to land at a more central airport or get a free glass of wine on-board?

[mart901]

MOL has created the most cabin crew jobs? Really? Or has he created a nice nest egg from training cabin crew, charging them for training, uniform, even visiting the swimming baths for assessment. The average cabin crew lasts 18 months, many are pushed out long before then with never ending targets, upselling, long hours only paid for inflight, no right of union membership....and thats for the ones who make it, many are charged for training etc then told there is no work for them. Its fairly easy to recruit from low wage eastern european economies, try dealing with the rest of the world and treating them well. EZY, EI, BE, MON etc can, why not FR? Just remember folks, that cheap seat cost someone dear, training and uniform, scam I think springs to mind. If LCC is the only way forwards why are EI doing so well and managing to out do FR on many Irish routes? Mind you, I would imagine living in Prestwick there is a fairly FR only viewpoint.

[Jamie2k9]

CPL593H Aged 22 I think another BA-LHR with little intelligence

Oh yes, because Aer Lingus are currently providing stiff competition to Ryanair in terms of fare prices http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

More often than not Aer Lingus are cheaper than Ryanair so when you do some research and know how Aer Lingus fare structure works then come back and make the same statement. There is a long list of routes that FR/EI serve that FR have pulled or reduced when EI have increased.

People want cheap fares, and if you can't provide that, sorry you have no place in the future of aviation.

So you are suggesting Ryanair will be one of a few carriers left in Europe in the next few years?

I highly doubt that prices would 'skyrocket'

Clearly you haven't studied economics and when you have a masters in Business and Economics come back here and I will have an intelligence debate on that matter.

I'm sure you believe that Ryanair have done a fantastic job at you local airport Prestwick.....

[mart901]

Well said Jamie....add to that look at FR's customer rating, despatches, watchdog, which magazine etc then rate it against EI. Take the cheap out of FR and theres little left.

[Jamie2k9]

add to that look at FR's customer rating, despatches, watchdog, which magazine etc then rate it against EI. Take the cheap out of FR and theres little left.

You get what you pay for with Ryanair, dosn't suit everybody but at the end of the day its passenger stupidity that gets in the way and people pay for there mistakes. All airlines are the same but FR enforce it better that others. Your in Business to make money not lose it.

[CPL593H]

@mart901

MOL has created the most cabin crew jobs? Really? Or has he created a nice nest egg from training cabin crew, charging them for training, uniform, even visiting the swimming baths for assessment. The average cabin crew lasts 18 months, many are pushed out long before then with never ending targets, upselling, long hours only paid for inflight, no right of union membership....and thats for the ones who make it, many are charged for training etc then told there is no work for them.

Great. More work for those willing to accept those conditions. Whiners out, those committed and wanting work in. Also, I think a lot of people in this forum talk about the wages of F/O's at Ryanair as if they were something akin to a paperboys wages. I'd happily fly for between 20k-35k.

@Jamie2k9

So you are suggesting Ryanair will be one of a few carriers left in Europe in the next few years?

No. Low-fare airlines will compete and dominate European routes. Big carriers will either adapt that model, or other low-fare airlines will give rise.

Clearly you haven't studied economics

I have a degree in politics nearly complete, and have held a pretty prominent position in a political party all for laissez-faire capitalism. I know a thing or two about economics.

I'm sure you believe that Ryanair have done a fantastic job at you local airport Prestwick.....

Yes, yes they have done a fantastic job. They are what is keeping Prestwick alive. They have created a maintenance base in recent years and have increased their routes this summer by 10%, while other airlines like Wizz have pulled out (as of the end of the month).


:D Bravo to both of you for attacking me on my place of residence. Have to get to bed now, as tommorrow is Sunday and I need to be up for the crack of dawn to worship our bronze statue of O'Leary in the centre of town :D

[CPL593H]

Well said Jamie....add to that look at FR's customer rating, despatches, watchdog, which magazine etc then rate it against EI. Take the cheap out of FR and theres little left.

Snobbery. Nothing but snobbery.

[Jamie2k9]

No. Low-fare airlines will compete and dominate European routes. Big carriers will either adapt that model, or other low-fare airlines will give rise.


Then you would know that Aer Lingus is not a typical carrier like LH, KLM, AF. They have already adapted there business model some time ago which is working very wll for them.

. I know a thing or two about economics.

Clearly you don't with some of you statments, any chance you studied what the terms dominant, monopoly, profits to name a few mean..

Yes, yes they have done a fantastic job. They are what is keeping Prestwick alive. They have created a maintenance base in recent years and have increased their routes this summer by 10%, while other airlines like Wizz have pulled out (as of the end of the month).

I'm sure that PIK financial results may state other wise and the fact that the owners can't wait to sell it. Wizz moving, indeed couldn't begins to guess some of the reasons for that...

[CPL593H]

@Jamie2k9

I'm sure that PIK financial results may state other wise and the fact that the owners can't wait to sell it. Wizz moving, indeed couldn't begins to guess some of the reasons for that...

The poor financial situation of Prestwick Airport is solely the problem of the management of Prestwick Airport, not Ryanair. Ryanair has remained committed to the airport, and if the pulled out of Prestwick they wouldn't be any better off would they? Before Ryanair came to Prestwick, there were animals on the runway. The place was dead. Ryanair has been the best thing to come to Prestwick...since Elvis! ;)

Then you would know that Aer Lingus is not a typical carrier like LH, KLM, AF. They have already adapted there business model some time ago which is working very wll for them.

Nope. Still the same as B.A to me.

[Jamie2k9]

The poor financial situation of Prestwick Airport is solely the problem of the management of Prestwick Airport, not Ryanair. Ryanair has remained committed to the airport, and if the pulled out of Prestwick they wouldn't be any better off would they? Before Ryanair came to Prestwick, there were animals on the runway. The place was dead. Ryanair has been the best thing to come to Prestwick...since Elvis! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif


In theory you correct but Ryanair have not remained committed to the airport. They cut a substantial amount of routes and moved them to EDI and resulted in a major drop in numbers at PIK. A 10% increase next summer is great but in reality its replacing lost capacity than went to EDI but when FR fell out with BAA and EDI they moved some back to PIK, now everything is happy with EDI again. Its hard for PIK management as its now a one airline airport and if the airport attempt to cover operating costs by increase charges Ryanair will throw there toys out of the pram.

Nope. Still the same as B.A to me.

Time for some research to be done before posting nonsense. Aer Lingus and BA are very different on how they operate.

[PAXboy]

Dear CPL593H,

I, for one, have never denied Mol's brilliance or the jobs he has created. He has got more people travelling. Fine. I just don't wish to travel on his airline again. That is not snobbery but other reasons.

Incidentally, across the Pond the merger of American and US Airways, it is widely acknowledged that airfares will rise. Now, I do of course understand that they are a very different proposition to your MoL, but it is the nature of capitalism that you understand so well - that prices will rise to what the market will stand. If one company (ANY company) own 80% of the market, they get to make the price more than the market does. In the USA, one larger company is going to be able to charge more than two competing ones.

I don't care if it's FR or EI that own 80% of the Irish market - that would not be good.

[Zag23]

I think you all should take notice of tory boys' comments on the airline business. Even at the tender age of 22 ,he obviously knows more about it than everyone else on here. Reminds me of a young William Haig.:E

[chaps2011]

CPL593H
There most certainly is a market for business flights at convient times allowing
for time at meetings, allowing for change of plans/route/days/times/cancelling
without losing their money or having to pay for everything at the gate or on the plane and conduct business in a comfortable seat

Chaps

[farci]

I have already agreed, yes those that need and must travel between Ireland and these cities are going to pay any price that is applied to the ticket. BUT in the process of raising fares, MOL will lose his core flyers, those flying for pleasure. They don't have to fly. They can stay at home and play chess over summer or dig the garden, rather than fork out ridiculous sums of money to visit landmarks in Berlin or Paris. You don't encourage sales by putting up the price. Yes MOL can exploit the business class who have no choice, but he couldn't survive on them alone. You have a touching faith in Ryanair's motives. As a self-confessed economic libertarian you will no doubt applaud the airline's Q4 forecast (http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/28-jan-3rd-quarter-results-2013) which is based on a winter programme of grounding aircraft and dispensing with employees in the name of 'increased yield' ie. higher fares income.

I can't fault Ryanair's logic. Equally you cannot have your cake and eat it too - I see little evidence that Ryanair will protect the 'core flyers' you mention

[DollarBill]

Are you seriously suggesting that there is a future in business class travel on flights of two hours or less?.......

......MOL will lose his core flyers, those flying for pleasure. They don't have to fly. .....

.....Yes MOL can exploit the business class who have no choice, but he couldn't survive on them alone.....

...... Who want's to pay three, four or even five times the price of what Ryanair is offering simply to land at a more central airport ..........

-There is a difference between 'Business Class' and 'business travellers'. If you want to work in aviation you would need to know the difference.

-MoL and FR don't care for their 'core flyers'. They want a credit card and a heartbeat. MoL previously estimated that the expected customer lifespan of an FR passenger was 18-24 months. (Quoted in 1 of the Paul Kilduff books) This of course refers to how long they will travel with FR...

-J Class travel and time sensitive pax are the highest yielding air pax. Y Class/Sale fares are there to cover the fixed costs. Therefore FR could very well survive on just business/time sensitive travellers. MoL himself stated that their best customers are people travelling for funerals.

-4x or 5x an FR fare. Yes who would? Extremely Time Sensitive Business travellers perhaps?
However you will find that most competitor aren't charging this much. (Unless of course you are comparing BA Club Europe to FR prices?) Average FR fare over the last 3 years has been E50-60, average EI fare over the last 3 years E80-100. And for some pax they are happy to pay the extra 30-40, for others they don't want to.

Hence the reason why most posters here are happy to have a choice. Different airlines with different products for different markets andor different customers.

[floss689]

Dear CPL593H

You are very entitled to your opinions on Ryanair and the takeover of Aer Lingus. However you cannot argue with the figures, EI are providing very stiff competition for Ryanair out of Ireland. You must accept that there is a market for more than just low cost, not everyone wants to fly with FR or to where FR fly. You cannot compare EI with BA, if you think they are the same, then you really don't know what you are talking about. EI have positioned themselves as a centre market airline between the lo costs and the legacy's and this is proving to work well for them.

You talk of hope for a flight crew job with Ryanair and don't seem to care about how much you get paid to do it. Mol would love you, you are exactly the kind of person he prays on. You'd happily work for 20k; try living on that with a flight training loan of 100k and a mortgage/rent. (I'm not talking about you personally but most people have these cost) Trust me, after 5 years of working for FR you won't be singing their praises so much. When you realise how the staff are treated and realise how treating the staff like this is part of the reason fares are lower. But you are young and naive and I know what ever I say you won't listen to because you already know it all. Maybe an attitude you should think about changing if you want to have a successful career as a pilot.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: “I am no lover of MOL..This is what Irks people against the EU..It's not their business…”

That’s the problem, sovereign governments have made it the EU's business.

They have abdicated their responsibilities to a supra-national bureaucracy because it’s easier than having to take responsibility for difficult decisions.

Sovereign governments have created a monster they can't now control ("ever closer union").


Quote: “The EU are very good at wasting money..I that they cannot be surpassed.”

Indeed, like any big unwieldy organisation, whether public or private.

Unfortunately, the EU is on such a large scale (continental), so the waste and the feathering their own nests is on a whole new eye-watering level.


Quote: “CPL593H Aged 22 I think another BA-LHR with little intelligence”

Interesting comment, perhaps a tad more beligerent than BA-LHR?

BTW what’s happened to BA-LHR, Windsorian, and dear old Silverstrata?


Quote: “I have a degree in politics nearly complete, and have held a pretty prominent position in a political party all for laissez-faire capitalism. I know a thing or two about economics.”

It’s “déjà vu” (all over again)! Another time, another thread, another poster…..

What party? What position? Do tell, no need to be bashful, we’re all friends here (even if the rhetoric sometimes suggests otherwise!).

[Zag23]

"What party? What position? Do tell, no need to be bashful, we’re all friends here (even if the rhetoric sometimes suggests otherwise!)."
Scottish Socialist Party ?:ok:

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Scottish Socialist Party "

Tommy Sheridan's lot isn't it?

[Epsomdog]

Why did Ryanair think it could buy Aer Lingus? (http://insidetraveller.co.uk/why-the-surprise-at-the-blocking-of-ryanairs-bid-for-aer-lingus/)

[Tooloose]

Succinct and spot on!

[PAXboy]

Why did RyanAir think it could buy AerLingus?

Simple:
When you have been more successful than anyone ever thought you would be?
When you have made millions and millions of €?
When you have changed the way EVERY SINGLE competitor in Europe does business?

You think that you can do anything.

I repeat that he will win - one way or the other. He has tried the 'polite' way and now he will do it the MoL way. For the record, I have no opinion other than that, for any one company to control more than 50% of any product or service, is not good for the consumer.

[racedo]

For the record, I have no opinion other than that, for any one company to control more than 50% of any product or service, is not good for the consumer.

Unless its BA with slots at Heathrow

and

The day after BAA was bought by Ferrovial, in which case a monopoly situation couldn't be allowed to exist at UK Airports. The fact that nothing would have happened if Spanish hadn't bought BAA is just idle speculation. UK Govt always had plans to look at it eventually in 30 years.

[PAXboy]

I don't follow your meaning there, racedo? You quote me and then by saying,Unless its BA with slots at Heathrowwould seem to indicate that exception of BA/LHR is something I support? Perhaps you could clarify?

[racedo]

Pax

Was being sardonic and wasn't directed as you.

[PAXboy]

Ah, thanks. I had presumed so but no smiley! :)

[Sober Lark]

An attempt to take over Aer Lingus and the fact they are a shareholder demonstrates they already have the potential to interfere with fair competition in the marketplace.

[racedo]

An attempt to take over Aer Lingus and the fact they are a shareholder demonstrates they already have the potential to interfere with fair competition in the marketplace.

So are you saying that the Irish Govt has the potential to interfere with fair competition in the marketplace as they are a shareholder as well ...............

[i am a bee too]

As far as I am aware the government dont have any planes competing on some 40+ routes with Aer Lingus

[Meccano]

Racedo can't grasp the difference between an Investor and a Competitor.:rolleyes:

[CPL593H]

@floss689

You cannot compare EI with BA, if you think they are the same, then you really don't know what you are talking about. EI have positioned themselves as a centre market airline between the lo costs and the legacy's and this is proving to work well for them.

Re-positioning themselves to sell their tickets ever so slightly less, but still an extortionate rip off price, doesn't exactly make them a 'centre market airline'.

You'd happily work for 20k; try living on that with a flight training loan of 100k and a mortgage/rent. (I'm not talking about you personally but most people have these cost) Trust me, after 5 years of working for FR you won't be singing their praises so much. When you realise how the staff are treated and realise how treating the staff like this is part of the reason fares are lower. But you are young and naive and I know what ever I say you won't listen to because you already know it all

You're wrong buddy. I won't have any loans of £100,000. I intend to work up to ATPL via the modular route using my own money, while at the same time holding down full time employment. No bank loans. No family loans/gifts. It will take a good number of years to do this, I am aware of that. Rent, not much of an issue when you have a girlfriend in decent employment paying 50% of the rent in a sensibly priced accommodation.

Generations of my family have worked down coal pits for decades. They weren't working on anything near 20k, and I am pretty sure they were treated a lot worse than pilots and cabin crew at Ryanair. Nevertheless they didn't walk out after 18 months in tears over their working conditions. I know what to expect of Ryanair. I have done enough reading on here and came to my conclusions.

Maybe an attitude you should think about changing if you want to have a successful career as a pilot.

I highly doubt that my keyboard mannerisms in debating/discussing with you lot, is going to impact too heavily upon my future career. :ok: Do you like drone aviators?

[CPL593H]

@Fairdealfrank

What party? What position? Do tell, no need to be bashful, we’re all friends here (even if the rhetoric sometimes suggests otherwise

Tommy Sheridan's lot isn't it?

@Zag23

Scottish Socialist Party ?

Nope. No socialist/feminist/gay rights activist me. := := :=

Do keep up with the times @Fairdealfrank, the king of the swingers left the Scottish Socialist Party in 2006 to form an even bigger joke of a party: Solidarity: Scotland's Socialist Movement. :O

[floss689]

extortionate rip off price

If this was true, then why would anyone fly with EI out of Dublin? At the moment there is plenty of competition which keeps prices checked. This would not be the case with a FR monopoly.

I won't have any loans of £100,000

I said I wasn't talking about your personal situation. These cost can be reasonably expected for someone who trains to be a pilot. Trying to make ends meet on 20k while paying back loans would not be easy.

I highly doubt that my keyboard mannerisms in debating/discussing with you lot, is going to impact too heavily upon my future career.

I genuinely wish you luck with your ambition. I just wish new guys coming into the industry could see that they are being taken advantage of.

[CPL593H]

@floss689

If this was true, then why would anyone fly with EI out of Dublin? At the moment there is plenty of competition which keeps prices checked. This would not be the case with a FR monopoly.

The ticket price differences between Ryanair and Aer Lingus is vast in and out of Ireland. Unless you are talking about buying a ticket about 1-2 days in advance, that might be the only time their prices meet. I have already said, some people are just pathetic and will pay x3 the price for a more padded seat for their backside, or just to spite Ryanair for not providing them with a cup of coffee.

I said I wasn't talking about your personal situation. These cost can be reasonably expected for someone who trains to be a pilot. Trying to make ends meet on 20k while paying back loans would not be easy.

Well people shouldn't be so stupid in the first place by getting themselves into debt on that level, knowing that their first flight role won't be allowing them to pay off all their debt within a year or two. I have no sympathy what so ever for these people. Get a job and open a savings account.

Also, it can be done for a lot less than 100k.

I genuinely wish you luck with your ambition. I just wish new guys coming into the industry could see that they are being taken advantage of.

God, the tea leaf pickers in India who get paid 50p a day must shed a tear now and then for pilots.

[Cian]

The ticket price differences between Ryanair and Aer Lingus is vast in and out of Ireland. Unless you are talking about buying a ticket about 1-2 days in advance, that might be the only time their prices meet. I have already said,


You really don't know a thing about what you're talking about, do you?

[Aerlingus231]

The ticket price differences between Ryanair and Aer Lingus is vast in and out of Ireland. Unless you are talking about buying a ticket about 1-2 days in advance, that might be the only time their prices meet. I have already said, some people are just pathetic and will pay x3 the price for a more padded seat for their backside, or just to spite Ryanair for not providing them with a cup of coffee.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :D:O:O:D

Did you even look anything up? Prices are similar for most competing flights, in some cases Aer Lingus being cheaper than FR. And just so you know EI don't provide you with a cup of coffee.

You claim to be big into capitalism, yet don't think that an Airline like Aer Lingus should exist, despite it making a profit for its shareholders for the past 3 years in a row?

You think they are too expensive, yet still people fly on them and they make a profit. Don't you think that if FR was able to charge a higher price and get away with it they would? That's how business works, FR is selling tickets for as much as they can charge without turning away passengers, so are EI, if EI can charge higher prices (not saying they do, but if they did) and still make a profit on it, then what's wrong, clearly there's a market for it. No airline is going to sell tickets cheaper than they have to just to be nice.

[floss689]

CPL

You obviously already know it all. I won't waste my time arguing with you. Enjoy FR if that's where you end up or if not there's always P2F. After a few years of getting treated like c*"p , you might eventually see what I'm on about. Good luck.

[pwalhx]

For the benefit of our young colleague, I have just looked at comparison prices to fly Manchester/Dublin/Manchester, at random I selected flying out 14th March and returning one week later.
He is absolutely right Ryanair at £85.69 are cheaper than EI at £95.99, however I would hardly say the difference in price is outrageous.

[mart901]

yea I would agree only about £10 in price differential and some 1 million miles apart in customer service...

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Do keep up with the times @Fairdealfrank, the king of the swingers left the Scottish Socialist Party in 2006 to form an even bigger joke of a party: Solidarity: Scotland's Socialist Movement."

Oh, very good! Sounds like you had never heard of Tommy Sheridan and had to "google" him to find out, hence the bang up-to-date information.

Is this correct?

Thought so.

[Epsomdog]

"So are you saying that the Irish Govt has the potential to interfere with fair competition in the marketplace as they are a shareholder as well ..............."

Unfortunately the Irish (or any other government, for that matter) always have the potential to interfere.

Remember when they took the STN/DUB route off Aer Lingus and gave it to FR;)

[ayroplain]

Remember when they took the STN/DUB route off Aer Lingus and gave it to FR
..and we have to thank them for that. It was instrumental in putting an end to EI (and BA's) £300 fares (equivalent to about £2,000 in today's money) for London-DUB-London :). A lot of people on here, especially the EI fanboys, conveniently forget about that.

[riptack]

The previous duopoly of BA/EI did lead to high prices..... so why would we think that a Ryanair/flybe duopoly would deliver low fares? :ugh:

[Hangar6]

Yes I recall EI to STN £29 one way into an empty terminal brand spanking new at the time FR started Lon from Dub their far was £108 return to undercut EI apex far ( do ye recall all that advance booking Saturday stay nonsense) of £109 and true executive class fare was I believe £280 , madness

So a good political interference to bail out Fr in order to have true completion and prevent predatory moves from EI and Ba the lady in charge of dept transport who made that happen irony of ironies is with Fr now on the merger task force....


I worked for both airlines and want both to prosper and think politics can and does help at times

[EI-A330-300]

EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - Mergers: Commission prohibits Ryanair's proposed takeover of Aer Lingus (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-167_en.htm)
Part that stands out:
However, the Commission's investigation demonstrated that these remedies were insufficient to ensure that customers would not be harmed, taking into account the scope and magnitude of the competition concerns raised by the proposed transaction on the 46 routes. In particular, the Commission found that Flybe was not a suitable purchaser capable of competing sufficiently with the Ryanair/Aer Lingus merged entity. The investigation also showed that IAG/British Airways would not constrain the merged entity to a sufficient degree and would have little incentive to stay on the routes beyond a 3 year period. In addition, the Commission could not conclude with the requisite degree of certainty that the proposed commitments could actually be put in place in a timely manner. Nor was it certain that they would work in practice and for a sustained period of time.

Further details:
EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - Mergers: Commission prohibits Ryanair's proposed takeover of Aer Lingus (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-144_en.htm)

[Hangar6]

Reading this I feel EU found the remedies lacked credibility, mmmm no surprise there then. Court in Ireland has found the same issue on occasion and its a hard one for FR to get over, but its a pretty firm rejection