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airship
11th Feb 2013, 13:51
According to these BBC reports:

1) On 6th February (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21399709): A four-week-old baby boy was attacked by a fox in his home in south London, the Metropolitan Police have said.

London Mayor Boris Johnson said: "This sort of attack, though terrible, is rare, but we must do more to tackle the growing problem of urban foxes."

But the BBC's John Andrew said: "The mother was at home and heard this awful scream, went next door where the baby was, found it had been dragged from the cot onto the floor and the baby's hand was in the jaws of the fox.

Our correspondent said it was believed one of the baby's fingers was severed but later re-attached by surgeons in a "delicate and difficult" three-hour operation, although it has not been confirmed by the hospital.

Mr Johnson said his thoughts were "with the baby boy and his family".

2) The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21408944) has said: the attack is a "wake up call", and he has called on councils in London to "come together, study the data, try to understand why this is becoming such a problem and act quickly to sort it out".

Boris Johnson wants an overdue cull of urban foxes apparently...

Let's all take a deep breath, go back to the 6th February when "the fox" ostensibly chewed off one of the baby's fingers (which was later re-attached by surgeons) but remains to be confirmed.

Please excuse me if I've got the wrong end of a very, if not exceedingly bushy tail....

The UK, a 6th of February 2013, very low temperatures etc., a fox somehow manages to get into the baby's bedroom or wherever he was, took the time to "chew off" one of it's fingers, whilst "the baby's mother was nearby", but never actually ate or swallowed the finger (so that it could be re-attached by surgeons).

OK, so if it had been summertime, with doors and windows open, I could imagine how a fox might have got into the house to do this if so inclined, but in recent weather in UK of February 2013?!

Always remember that in 90-95% of cases, child abuse (sexual or otherwise) is usually perpetrated by the immediate family or close relations.

In this particular case, there are far too many unanswered questions for my own liking...

Maybe the household in question have at least one dog as household pet. Perhaps they're trying to protect that dog from immediate destruction? If not, then worthwhile considering other avenues...

Sallyann1234
11th Feb 2013, 14:01
Guess which newspaper hyped-up this non-story?
Shock-horror, a fox bit a child's finger!!!

According to the BBC, 6,500 patients are treated in hospital every year for dog bites. A few children die from the same.

I think a large dose of perspective is required.

tony draper
11th Feb 2013, 14:09
Just another good reason why babies should be allowed to carry guns.:rolleyes:

SpringHeeledJack
11th Feb 2013, 14:11
According to the BBC, 6,500 patients are treated in hospital every year for dog bites. A few children die from the same.

I think a large dose of perspective is required.

True enough, but 99% of those won't be feral and opportunistically sneak into a home looking for something to eat. Urban foxes are a pest, but rather like squirrels are furry and cuddly, so have better PR than rats or mice, or for that matter some species of birds. I wouldn't be best pleased to find a fox in my castle and even less impressed if it bit/attacked my child/pet/property.


SHJ

rgbrock1
11th Feb 2013, 14:15
Tony D

I hope your last post doesn't cause this thread to become hijacked!!!

Sallyann1234
11th Feb 2013, 14:23
Jack,
WTF does it matter whether the fox or the dog is tame, feral or escaped from a circus?
The fact remains that a hell of a fuss is being made over a small injury that wouldn't have made it into the local paper if it had been caused by a dog.

What the Fug
11th Feb 2013, 14:29
A think a dog biting the finger off a baby sleeping would make the National Press

Sallyann1234
11th Feb 2013, 14:38
Nonsense.
How many of those 6,500 injuries quoted by the BBC appeared in the press?
From time to time a child is savaged or killed by a rottweiller and it quite rightly makes the national press. But that's about all.

SpringHeeledJack
11th Feb 2013, 14:39
WTF does it matter whether the fox or the dog is tame, feral or escaped from a circus?
The fact remains that a hell of a fuss is being made over a small injury that wouldn't have made it into the local paper if it had been caused by a dog.

Mother had to kick urban fox to stop it dragging her baby out of the house - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/mother-had-to-kick-urban-fox-to-stop-it-dragging-her-baby-out-of-the-house-29060919.html)

There are very few feral (or circus dogs) these days and I'd wager that none of the 6,500 attacks involved entering a home through a window/catflap etc and resulting in the above. It makes the news because it is unusual/rare. I would beg to differ over 'small injury', especially to such a young infant.


SHJ

airship
11th Feb 2013, 14:49
Thanks for the link SHJ.

Doesn't quite explain how the fox got into the house in the 1st place though...on such a cold day when most of us would have had their doors / windows firmly closed against the weather...

Glad to see how all the other family members are gathering round and giving support to the mother though.

Blame it on the French (if not a fox)...

G-CPTN
11th Feb 2013, 15:03
Doesn't quite explain how the fox got into the house in the 1st place though...on such a cold day when most of us would have had their doors / windows firmly closed against the weather...From the interweb:-
a fox entered through their back door that had been left open because it was broken and was awaiting repair

FlyerFoto
11th Feb 2013, 15:12
At least it might make some of the tree-hugging 'lovely foxy-woxy' lot think twice - this situation is something exceedingly rare, but something farmers have to cope with on a daily basis...

G-CPTN
11th Feb 2013, 15:18
Callers to the Beeb (R5) alternate between those in favour of destroying all foxes and those who suggested inviting foxes into the home and feeding them as pets.

skua
11th Feb 2013, 15:21
FF

Agreed. Perhaps more people will realise that they are no more than omniverous vermin.

They certainly cause a lot of damage round my (urban) neck of the woods. When I asked my Councillor 2 years ago what he was planning to do about the growing problem, he said he would "look into it". He's still looking....

Wish Kate Hoey was my MP, then there would be a sporting chance of getting a local pack set up (if the law were a reversed a tad)!

rgbrock1
11th Feb 2013, 15:23
The back door was open due to being broken and in need of repair???

Considering it is winter I'd imagine it must be rather chilly in that house.

Something doesn't add up here.

airship
11th Feb 2013, 15:27
What, a complete back-door "was broken"? Shatterred into "10s or 100s of pieces" etc.?! And in the middle of daily weather with freezing temperatures, whatever was left where once was to be found a "complete back door", a suitably large opening nevertheless allowed the fox to enter and do its' dastardly deeds...?! :}

Perhaps "I'm well and truly way out of line here", but others here including G-CPTN are simply attempting to easily spike my refined thoughts, putting out false trails...

I reckon the real culprit might have been a dingo, perhaps an illegal pet of an Ozzie barman working in a London pub, whose carer "hit it off" with one of the girlies who used to populate the horse-mounted UK fox-hunting scene. Got carried away, came back after the weekend to find his dingo had broken the back-door window and escaped into the wild. I realise that my own suppositions are "a cry in the dark"...

But it's not just 1 fox (or dingo) that has it's life hanging by a thin line here, it's possibly 10s of thousands of otherwise innocent urban animals who're going to suffer Boris Johnson's "cull"... :\

RJM
11th Feb 2013, 15:30
"Urban fox" attacks 4 week old baby boy in own home...

What was a baby doing down a foxhole?

hellsbrink
11th Feb 2013, 15:41
Strange people who live in that area, RJM, broken back doors are the "in thing" in the neighbourhood. Or I think it must be, since it's as much of a jump from reality as

the attack is a "wake up call", and he has called on councils in London to "come together, study the data, try to understand why this is becoming such a problem and act quickly to sort it out".

reads as CULL Basil Brush.


Now, I been on the gin and painkillers but even my mind can't twist things around to make a leap of that magnitude.

sitigeltfel
11th Feb 2013, 15:45
Apparently the mother had to kick the fox to get it to release the baby.

The RSPCA are preparing a cruelty case against her.

stuckgear
11th Feb 2013, 15:48
Blame it on the French (if not a fox)...


ah we have a Kevin Bacon moment..


Fox attacks baby..

Edward Fox played the assassin in the 1973 film The Day of the Jackal.

In The Day of the Jackal, the assassin's target is Charles De Gaulle..

De Gaulle is indeed French..

... there is a French Connection !

Ancient Observer
11th Feb 2013, 15:56
Why the French?? I bet it was a Welsh fox..............

SpringHeeledJack
11th Feb 2013, 15:59
For fox sake, does it matter where the fox came from ? :}


SHJ

rgbrock1
11th Feb 2013, 16:00
Wasn't this originally reported on Fox News? :}:}:}

Ancient Observer
11th Feb 2013, 16:03
Of course it matters where the fox came from!!

How else are they going to finger the guilty party?

airship
11th Feb 2013, 16:06
The animal apparently responsable, presented itself to a local police station saying "I'm the guilty party, arrest me officer". My name is Mr. Badger. Since you're going to seriously cull all us (badgers) anyways, I thought I'd sort of sacrifice myself, just in case it would save a few foxes hereabouts...

After some serious interrogation, Mr. Badger has been released "on his own reconnaisance" for the time-being, having wasted police resources and time. It appears that Mr. Badger's explanation of the events, when he was attracted "by an over-whelming smell of honey and baby's faeces" and therefore "broke-down the back-door in uncontrollable frenzy" did not concur with police evidence at the crime scene.

Whatever, thank you Mr. Badger for all your generosity. I believe that the true phrase is your altruism...:ok:

hellsbrink
11th Feb 2013, 16:07
It matters a hell of a lot, for if we can ascertain that the fox was, in fact, Welsh, then they can bring a charge of racism against it as it attacked an English child.




That'll keep the Mail busy for months as they search out more racist foxes, the Express will finally be able to move on from Diana and Maddie as they focus on the unprovoked attack on a poor baby by such an animal. The Guardian will focus on how "deprived" the fox was, having to rummage through dirty nappies and inedible fast food as it tries to bring up a family without getting the benefits that middle class people get, nobody will care what the Independent says and the Sun will find a novel place to stick a brush whilst going "Phwoaar! Look at the norks on that fox (Beckee, 19, Basildon)".

So it matters a lot, you know.

Ancient Observer
11th Feb 2013, 16:09
How many times do I have to remind folk on here???

There is not, and has never been, a publication called the "Guardian".

It is, and always has been, the "Grauniad"

airship
11th Feb 2013, 16:15
I don't believe I'd really complain very much if I were to have a "fox" (page 3 - non Graduin publication) as regular female companion in my own bed. Nor simply a tame "fox" sleeping on top of the covers (provided it got on OK with the pudicats). Oh alright, and a couple of badgers why not (how on earth did they climb up onto the 1st floor)...?!

rgbrock1
11th Feb 2013, 16:24
airship:

I don't believe your earlier assertion that the fox was indeed a badger.

I believe the fox got badgered into surrendering by a cabal of conspirators.

500N
11th Feb 2013, 17:06
"The RSPCA are preparing a cruelty case against her."


The RSPCA were really insightful in the original article I read
saying "fear" is the only reason they would attack :ugh:

No wonder they are going down hill as an organisation.

Sallyann1234
11th Feb 2013, 17:17
Here you are then guys.

Sam Fox (http://www.samfox.com/)

Krystal n chips
11th Feb 2013, 17:17
" At least it might make some of the tree-hugging 'lovely foxy-woxy' lot think twice"

Thus missing and failing completely to understand the reason some of us ( I qualify for the above ) are against hunting.


"- this situation is something exceedingly rare"

Well you got that bit correct, well done !


" but something farmers have to cope with on a daily basis"

Ah yes, I must have read numerous reports of farmers, their children and families being ravage by foxes....on the other hand, foxes do attack farm animals in order to eat

True, the resulting carnage is far from pleasant ( before you ask, yes, I have seen the aftermath, numerous times) but as the fox is a predator the animal can't simply pop down to the local butcher or supermarket to collect it's loyalty card points now can it, thus it behaves in the manner it's genetics define.

As for this case, well the OP summates matters very well in the opening post.

500N
11th Feb 2013, 17:28
Krystal

And you are against hunting or eradicating foxes because ?



A baby falls within the 18kg range a fox will kill and carry away.

Tableview
11th Feb 2013, 17:32
A think a dog biting the finger off a baby sleeping would make the National Press

Only if it was a bull terrier/Staffie/Rottie/or German Shepherd. We all know that yapping snarly little yapdogs don't do things like that ...... much!

FlyerFoto
11th Feb 2013, 18:10
Mmm...

I don't seem to have had a good last few days in here...

Time I departed pprune, I think - if only I could find how to delete my account!!!

Sprogget
11th Feb 2013, 18:45
If you've managed to let a fox have a go at your newborn, then you really do need a lesson in basic child supervision.
I'm going to take wild guess that you're not a parent, since I don't know any, myself included who have managed to rear a child without one or two moments of real danger appearing at the door.

If however you are, then I feel heart warmingly overjoyed on behalf of your children possessing as they do a parent of such impeccable infallibility and unswerving vigilance that their continued existence beneath your roof is both assured and guaranteed.

rgbrock1
11th Feb 2013, 18:48
Sprogget:

When you wrote your reply were legions of harp-bearing angels descending from the heavens above, surrounded by a multitude of cherabim and nymphs (NO, not those types of nymphs Slasher, you animal) singing hallelejuah and other assorted celetisal song?

I thought so.

N707ZS
11th Feb 2013, 18:53
Man on BBC breakfast said that foxes like the smell of the babies nappy, or its contents. Must be the equivalent of fast food.

rgbrock1
11th Feb 2013, 19:13
Now I know why I never did like fox: they like the smell of baby shit. Probably the green type which they "emit" whilst still newborn.

probes
11th Feb 2013, 19:20
Time I departed PPRuNe, I think - if only I could find how to delete my account!!!
why don't you just throw away your computer? :8

Sprogget
11th Feb 2013, 19:54
Yep. Bashed my newborn's head on the door frame more than once & had her stop breathing too.

You obviously would never experience any form of human weakness as a parent though & I salute your unshakeable excellence. in these matters. Truly inspiring.

FlyerFoto
11th Feb 2013, 19:59
Thanks probes - the way this old computer is playing up, I think it will be on the way out very soon...

And thanks Krystal - only someone very special indeed could manage to mis-interpret my (admittedly not very well worded) third point...

So it's goodbye from me then...

Sir George Cayley
11th Feb 2013, 20:01
On Radio 4 tonight (yes I'm that old) a chap from the Fox Project gave a surprising interview. The Fox Project (http://www.foxproject.org.uk/)

I expected a "Foxes are luvverly they wouldn't hurt a..." when in fact the advice about denying foxes food and letting their own territorial behave cut numbers was remarkably refreshing.

Apparently an urbane fox needs around 400 gardens to support a family. Misguided residents feeding foxes reduces their need for territory and so other foxes move in. Restore the balance and each fox becomes a fox deterrent, well up to 400 gardens per fox that is.

Even more startling was the news that London Boroughs culled foxes from the war years until the 1980s. They gave up then because despite the thousands killed they ended up with more in London than they started with. Country foxes simply walked down rail tracks to replace the dead.

In a parallel the Gull cull in Jamaica Bay New York saw over 1 million gulls shot; you'd never have guessed looking at the place after.

Let nature maintain the balance - people stop feeding foxes.

Now Rats is another thing all together. I'se 'ate rats.:eek:

SGC

Sprogget
11th Feb 2013, 20:18
Not really. In fact not even a little, but you did ask for examples within 28 days of birth. Fortunately for us, we weren't one of the unlucky ones whose child is smothered by mattress pads or becomes wedged between cot and mattress & that does happen, unnoticed by loving parents.

Subsequently, she's wandered out between parked cars as a car has flown by, so that would have been a half a second or so from something terrible that would have changed everything & I freely admit I'd taken my eye off her for a split second which is all it takes.

The point being your highfalutin snap judgment over people you don't know and have never met diminishes you far more than my parenting failings do me. So I ask you again, are you a parent and if so, are you going to tell me that you have never made a mistake, or is it the case that you don't actually know what you are talking about, having never experienced the travails of children?

What's it gonna be?

Loose rivets
11th Feb 2013, 20:18
It's serious stuff. The last one I remember fronted up to the terrified mother when she ran into the bedroom.

Urban foxes present a very real danger to babies. Blood up, they are a killing machine.

Statistically, there's no much to show at the moment, but as they're culled in the wild, they will appear more frequently in towns.

A mate of mine hunts them with a passion. Dedicated vehicle, phenomenal rifles, and better night vision that our army is issued. Each bullet is tailored and fine-tuned to be far more accurate than 'factory'.

"One bullet, one fox."

And I don't doubt his word, but it's quite unnerving to think he can achieve this in pitch black darkness at a range measured in hundreds of feet, if not yards.

He works closely with the police, but I doubt he'll ever get permission to wander around residential areas. Depends on how serious the threat becomes perhaps.

500N
11th Feb 2013, 20:28
Loose rivets

The "One bullet, one fox" is because if you miss,
they are damn quick learners and it can take ages
to get them in the sights again - years even.

The longest it took me to get a Sheep killer fox
was nearly two years.


But agree, as numbers increase, attacks will increase,
especially if food is scarce.

The hunting ban might be starting to show through in
numbers but also lack of fear of humans.

RJM
11th Feb 2013, 20:36
Why not allow unrestricted hunting (horses, baying hounds, pink jackets etc) in the metropolitan area for a few months?

It would provide colour and movement in the city, I'm sure the various presently constrained hunts would 'jump' at the opportunity, and the foxes certainly wouldn't be expecting it.

Davaar
11th Feb 2013, 20:39
Airship, you surprise me. As I read the part of your post after the line beginning "Boris", it is the product of your imagination. If I am wrong in that assessment, you have my full aoplogy. Am I wrong?

Tableview
11th Feb 2013, 21:35
I agree that in urban surrounds they are scavenging vermin, however, humans have invaded their territory and limited their ability to feed themselves. They are natural scavengers.

500N
12th Feb 2013, 01:24
I see the RSPCA suggests feeding them :ugh:

http://content.www.rspca.org.uk/cmsprd/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobnocache=false&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1233009779671&ssbinary=true

Mac the Knife
12th Feb 2013, 04:02
"Apparently an urbane fox needs around 400 gardens to support a family."

You mean one like this, Sir George?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00659/news-graphics-2008-_659250a.jpg

Mac

Krystal n chips
12th Feb 2013, 04:22
" Krystal

And you are against hunting or eradicating foxes because ?"

Well, since you ask....

Hunting for food....applicable to all predators, including humans.

Hunting as a "sport" to demonstrate some sort of "prowess", invariably with the benefit of technology, only serves to demonstrate a weakness if not cowardice within the personality of those who participate.

Hence I am less than sympathetic when technology fails and the odds are restored in favour of the animal being hunted.

Hunting in the UK.... a warped idea of a social meeting allied to a quaint British "class" system. The local hunt parades through the hamlet every Christmas, the local rag exhorts the peasantry to watch...and, this being a rural(ish) location, they duly do.


" A baby falls within the 18kg range a fox will kill and carry away"

Right, now I understand. As risible excuses go, or rather justification of the rationale this takes some beating.

And the last time a fox abducted and consumed a baby ( salad, fries and onion rings being optional I suppose ) in the UK was, when ?....dates and location(s) please.

.

500N
12th Feb 2013, 04:39
Krstal

Good answer.

I understand where you are coming from re hounds
although I disagree.

i suppose you don't like the Glorious 12th either :O

FYI, I only shoot them to eradicate them as they are
a pest here in Aus and I would do the same in the UK.
Small numbers OK, big numbers a problem.


"And the last time a fox abducted and consumed a baby"

They said the same thing about Dingos here in Aus.

You have had 3 well publicised attacks over the last few
years - that I have read about. I doubt a fox would eat a
baby unless it could drag it away but it would only take
one bite to the head / neck and a baby could well die.

Look at the scars on those twins that were attacked ?

IMHO, the numbers are increasing in urban areas,
a fair few of the foxes in London would never have
seen the countryside and have little fear of humans
- and see them as a source of food instead, scraps or
babies (helped of course by the RSPCA !!!).

To them a baby is the same as a baby lamb,
small alive meat that makes a noise.

Krystal n chips
12th Feb 2013, 05:02
500N

The urban fox population in the UK hax been increasing for years.

My parents used to see one that trotted around their garden in deepest Manchester on a nightly, and for that matter daytime, basis, not to mention the den on the allotment my father used to have. I watched one having its dinner one night in my own back garden...a pigeon to be exact.

I accept there have been attacks on babies, but, and it's a big but, foxes do not usually attack humans as a matter of course. "Fight or flight" comes to mind here, same as you or I or any human would do if we felt our life was threatened.

To be fair, I would say dingoes, and the location of the now infamous attack, bears no comparison to the urban fox in the UK. A big difference between the Aussie outback and "Acacia Avenue" would you not agree ?

I do actually enjoy " the Glorious Day in Question"....when the shooting parties manage to shoot each other...:ok::E

500N
12th Feb 2013, 05:12
Krystal

"I do actually enjoy " the Glorious Day in Question"....

care to be my loader :O

I'd have to buy a set of tweeds though !

:ok:

Worrals in the wilds
12th Feb 2013, 05:20
FYI, I only shoot them to eradicate them as they are a pest here in Aus and I would do the same in the UK.That's easy enough in rural areas, but in urban streets?
I doubt that the government OH&S types would approve it, even in Australia (and that's without considering the PR of shooting them, think of the masses of negative press around brumby culls down here, and that's not in suburban streets :eek:). That leaves baits and traps. Baits are risky around domestic animals and kids. Traps are also risky around kids (my guess is that there'd be far more trapped fingers than bitten fingers, and it's easier to sue the trapping contractor than Mr Fox :uhoh:) and in my limited experience with cats and foxes, only catch the dumb animals anyway.

Seriously, say the relevant authority decided to cull foxes and hired you as the principal contractor, what methods would you use? Have I missed one?

500N
12th Feb 2013, 05:26
Worral

You would be surprised who eradicates what in places.
Rimfire or Air rifles with suppressors to get rid of birds
etc. That's what I would use.

Don't know of anyone doing foxes.

Not a great fan of baits unless it is Strychnine
which kills very quickly but as you say, too risky.

Traps, I wouldn't, not in the city / suburbia, too many
domestic cats !!!

Worrals in the wilds
12th Feb 2013, 05:41
Don't know of anyone doing foxes. I know a few people who cull foxes and dogs in urban areas, but AFAIK they don't shoot land animals in built up environments except to cull them once they're trapped. I'll have to check. :8

One of the bushy cousins undertook a fully approved wild dog baiting programme in a urban fringe area and noticed a spike in the local paper's 'lost dog' column the following week :eek:. It definitely wouldn't work in the inner city.

There was one guy in SEQ who used a pig dog, but I think he got OH&Sed out of the market. Again, there'd be big issues in urban streets; he worked in more rural environments.

sitigeltfel
12th Feb 2013, 05:41
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02477/120213-MATT-web_2477779a.jpg

sitigeltfel
12th Feb 2013, 05:55
Hunting in the UK.... a warped idea of a social meeting allied to a quaint British "class" system. The local hunt parades through the hamlet every Christmas, the local rag exhorts the peasantry to watch...and, this being a rural(ish) location, they duly do. Utter bolleaux. I have been out with a fair few hunts and beagle packs, and what you refer to as the "peasantry" make up a sizeable proportion of the members.
Also, it is the middle and wealthy classes who inhabit those quaint English hamlets. But only on weekends and public holidays, the peasants having been priced out of the housing market by them. They are the ones most likely to object to the presence of the hunt.

500N
12th Feb 2013, 08:05
All hunts, whether a beagle pack or a day out on the pheasant
and grouse is made up of a real corss section of society.

And if you didn't have the "high falutin" people paying astronomical
figures to hunt / shoot or whatever, you wouldn't be employing
a fair few people in the country or the suppliers.

Like everything in this world, it takes all sorts :O

Windy Militant
12th Feb 2013, 08:07
Mate of mine had his kiddies bunnies taken by a suburban fox, he called in the council pest control people who gave him a trap.
He gave up after a couple of weeks, he was fed up of extracting the neighbourhood cats from the thing. One was pretty cool with the whole thing just sat there while my mate opened the trap door and let him out. The rest of them were like Tasmanian devils! Even with the welders mitts he ended up looking like he'd been repeatedly dragged through a blackthorn hedge! :eek:

Sprogget
12th Feb 2013, 08:13
Yes, but you furnished me with the information to do so:

If you've managed to let a fox have a go at your newborn, then you really do need a lesson in basic child supervision.

Once again, on the subject of side stepping a question, I ask the question are you an infallible parent who has never made a single error in child care or are you in fact someone who doesn't know what's involved in looking after a child because they've never done it?

What's it gonna be?

500N
12th Feb 2013, 08:16
Traps are the fluffy way or doing it !!! LOL


Worral
Baits as shown are not good, too easy to get the wrong target.

What the Fug
12th Feb 2013, 08:20
500N

Gas and TNT is the way forward :ok:


As has been pointed out this thread, they are wild animals stop feeding them so they lose their fear of humans and let nature take its course

500N
12th Feb 2013, 08:42
TNT, fun, yes but jesus I could see a few back gardens going up into the sky :O

Gas, you have to find the dens first and not that easy to do
plus not always like a rabbit hole.

Ex Cargo Clown
12th Feb 2013, 09:10
We managed to befriend a Vixen, who used to be a regular visitor to the garden, eventually she came inside (bribed by food) but was totally tame, eventually would even sit on the couch watching TV, I was never scared.

I've got an alsatian downstairs that could do far more damage to me if she turned, although she won't :)

What the Fug
12th Feb 2013, 10:39
Yes but would you leave that Alsation in with a four week old baby unsupervised, for the first time



also by taming that vixen you make my life easier, no need for gas or TNT just a ball Pein Hammer

Am in no way bitter about the great chicken house massacre of 1981 what so ever

1DC
12th Feb 2013, 11:15
When the foxhunting debate was going on a chap on the pro side said that within 5 years the increase in urban foxes would be so great that the antis would be complaining about them and the damage that they caused. His theory was that without control in the countryside the excess foxes would all go to the towns for food. I must admit that i have seen more foxes in our town than ever before. I went to our large DIY store last wednesday and the one walking around the car park had no fear of humans..

Radar66
12th Feb 2013, 11:30
Spot on 1DC.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb122/Radar66/foxhounds_zps99591a7e.jpg

MagnusP
12th Feb 2013, 12:00
Told MrsP about it. She said "Lewisham? Wear the fox hat."

ExRAFRadar
12th Feb 2013, 12:23
I live out Twickenham way and the foxes round here are getting rather brave.
Been here 10 years now and there does seem to be more but we only tend to see/hear them on the evening's before rubbish collection.
Which leads me to my bug bear.
The bloody things would not come round if people bagged their rubbish up properly.
I walk 15 minutes to the trains station down a long suburban road.
Wednesdays, rubbish collection day,the road looks like something out of a post apocalyptic drama.
Ripped bin bags, half eaten chicken, stale bread, and yes even nappies are strewn all over.
And what gets me is it happens week after week.
.

SpringHeeledJack
12th Feb 2013, 16:17
The bloody things would not come round if people bagged their rubbish up properly.
I walk 15 minutes to the trains station down a long suburban road.
Wednesdays, rubbish collection day,the road looks like something out of a post apocalyptic drama.
Ripped bin bags, half eaten chicken, stale bread, and yes even nappies are strewn all over.
And what gets me is it happens week after week.

That's the nail hit with the hammer. All over London the same scenario is evident. Assuming that people aren't as stupid as they act, perhaps it's simply the mentality that once in a bin bag and out of the house, it's out of sight, out of mind, rather as when one waves goodbye to a blind mullet on the throne.



SHJ

unclenelli
12th Feb 2013, 18:12
Apparently, the most dangerous red-head to emerge from the woods since Raoul Moat.

airship
10th Oct 2013, 16:36
A six week trial of badger culling in Somerset has now ended. The UK government has announced (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24475034) that it's now looking at altenative measures including "gassing"...

Does the current UK government not have sufficient numbers of experts "on-call". Or will they call upon UKIP for their own in-house expertise? Or perhaps there are sufficient documents relating to "gassing" in the government's archives (hint: look at archives ca. 1941-44 relating to Jews) before asking for further advice etc. :yuk:

If farmers throughout the past few centuries had always had it their own way, there would not be a single bird, fox, or other mammal or even insect remaining alive in the wild today. Just those which are farmed... :}

radeng
10th Oct 2013, 18:58
Don't agree Airship.

My neighbours are farmers. Two brothers, their two sons and one grandson - the other grandson shortly to join when he's old enough. Munkjack deer are a problem here, but senior brother won't allow shooting of them on the farm, even though they raid everybody's fruit trees. Foxes aren't so much of a problem, although they attack the hen houses - but the local hunt was not allowed on the farmer's land when hunting was legal.

Sallyann1234
10th Oct 2013, 18:59
There have always been badgers in the countryside, and there have always been cows.

Sp why has it only recently become necessary to kill the badgers? It wouldn't have anything to do with modern intensive cattle farming would it?

ShyTorque
11th Oct 2013, 10:44
It wouldn't have anything to do with modern intensive cattle farming would it?

It affects cows grazing in fields. It would affect just a single cow grazing in a very large field if it ate grass contaminated by an infected badger.

Many years ago (prior to WW2), well before "intensive" farming began, many cattle in UK had already contracted TB, it was endemic. It can also be passed from cattle to humans, that is why pasteurisation of milk was made compulsory in UK half a century ago. I remember my father, who came from a farming background, played merry hell with me for buying and drinking unpasteurised milk from a local farm. The farmer was later prosecuted for selling unpasteurised milk.

Thirty years ago I almost lost my mother to TB, and my best friend from my schooldays too, some years prior to that. The latter lost most of one lung as a result of the illness.

So I'd say the answer is no, it's not to do with modern intensive cattle farming, at least not in UK! ;)

superq7
11th Oct 2013, 13:53
Wow I didn't know that, good post ShyTorque. :ok:

500N
11th Oct 2013, 14:01
TB is a pain to have in animals.

They literally wiped out over hoofed animal in Northern Australia
in the 70's and 80's, which included Wild Buffalo and Horses so as
to break the chain on TB which then allowed cattle farming to
begin with export in mind.

A mate of mine caught TB from eating infected meat.

ShyTorque
11th Oct 2013, 14:45
Suprq7, thanks. The one highly regrettable thing that I don't fully understand is why more effort hasn't been applied to finding an effective cattle vaccine.

I think it's a huge shame about this badger cull, they are fascinating creatures. Forty years ago we used to go out all night and sit up a tree just in the hope of getting a glimpse of a badger (yes, I know.. ooer missus!).

I've just realised, these badger watching expeditions were, hopefully by coincidence only, with the school pal who later contracted TB and almost died from it!

However, I think it's important to try to control this terrible disease by whatever means is required. The farming community faces other severe challenges too and without them we'd all be in dire straits.

VP959
11th Oct 2013, 15:32
There's also the problem of sick badgers, who've been infected with bovine TB as a result of their natural territory becoming farmland with cattle on it.

I come from a farming family and remember there being a trial years ago where people in the West Country (may well have been elsewhere, too) were asked to report or collect road kill badgers for post mortem analysis in a government lab. If I remember correctly virtually all the road kill badgers had TB, some being so ill with it that it almost certainly increased the risk of them being hit by a vehicle when crossing the road.

I'm not convinced this cull will make a significant difference to the bovine TB problem, but it may provide some evidence to inform how best to tackle it, by seeing if there is a dip in the incidence of bovine TB in cattle in the cull areas (which is, I believe, one reason for doing it).

A vaccine that didn't automatically make every cow react positive for TB when tested would be good, but right now that doesn't exist in any approved form. The vaccine that does exist may well protect cattle from TB, but it turns them into reactors, so you have no way of knowing whether they are effectively immunised against TB or whether they may be infected with TB, as I understand it.

Vaccinating badgers would be a good solution, if an effective way can be found to do it, but my understanding is that it is remarkably difficult to get the right level of coverage for it to be effective.

airship
14th Oct 2013, 15:01
So, (please do correct me if I'm wrong), according to ShyTorque, superq7 (in complete ignorance), 500N and VP959:

In other words, annihilate all the UK badgers if at all possible or envisagable following the UK Dept. of Agriculture (or better known as yer local farmers' union) voice's advice. And no, no human-being ever caught TB from another bi-ped...?! Goodness no?! That would involve exterminating threats posed by human-beings walking upright on 2 legs arriving at most of the UK's air and sea-ports, previously contanimated in foreign lands etc. :ugh:

All the arseholes whoever demanded a "badger" cull, should be suitably culled themselves IMHO, forthwith and rapidly... :sad: :}

500N
14th Oct 2013, 15:04
No airship, it wouldn't work so I wouldn't suggest it.

You not only have to get rid of badgers but any hoofed animal
that has it and any other transmitters / carriers.

It ain't going to happen in the UK.

4mastacker
14th Oct 2013, 15:50
We hear and see the occasional fox around these parts but that's because we are on the edge of town and the countryside/farmland is a 10 minute walk away. We (Mrs 4ma and I) accept their presence because they are part of the scene and the local farmers deal with them as they see fit. The rate that new houses are being built, it's the human element that is moving into the fox's space, not the other way round. The fox has always been there, it's the humans who are the new kids on the block, so perhaps they shouldn't complain too much if Basil Brush and his mates come sniffing around. It's becoming a bit like folks moving to near an airport and then complaining about the aircraft noise.

A cull of foxes? I don't know if that would solve the "problem". As for the badgers, the only thing I know about them is that they can be big buggahs and can do a fair bit of damage to a car if their paths cross.

Miserlou
14th Oct 2013, 17:47
I'm surprised no-one has wanted to hear the other side of the story.

So, "WHAT DID THE FOX SAY?"

Ylvis - The Fox (What Does the Fox Say?) [Official music video HD] - YouTube

ShyTorque
14th Oct 2013, 20:59
So, (please do correct me if I'm wrong), according to ShyTorque, superq7 (in complete ignorance), 500N and VP959:
In other words, annihilate all the UK badgers if at all possible or envisagable following the UK Dept. of Agriculture (or better known as yer local farmers' union) voice's advice. And no, no human-being ever caught TB from another bi-ped...?! Goodness no?! That would involve exterminating threats posed by human-beings walking upright on 2 legs arriving at most of the UK's air and sea-ports, previously contanimated in foreign lands etc.
All the arseholes whoever demanded a "badger" cull, should be suitably culled themselves IMHO, forthwith and rapidly...

You are wrong. I'd rather no badgers were culled. But then again, I'd rather no farmers lost their stock and their livelihoods to this terrible disease. At least humans can be vaccinated, but as we learned, it's not always effective. It's extremely difficult to get badgers to visit the doctor.

If you prefer badgers to human beings and domesticated animals, and don't use any dairy products, so be it. But there's no escaping the sad fact that many badgers will still suffer and die from TB.

As far as bi-peds go, it was determined that my mother probably caught TB from an infected overseas human visitor, at her place of work. She wasn't the only one to contract the disease at that same location and an investigation was held to find the source. The disease was very uncommon at that time and many medical staff didn't even recognise the symptoms, hence my friend remaining undiagnosed for many months, despite having visited his doctor a number of times.

airship
15th Oct 2013, 17:39
ShyTorque wrote: As far as bi-peds go, it was determined that my mother probably caught TB from an infected overseas human visitor, at her place of work.

I'm very sorry to learn that ShyTorque. :sad:

But your response does go some way to support my own notion that the current measures by UK govt. and the "badger-culling" are wholly-inadequate or at best, very ill-thought out. And only there to appease the farming lobbies. :sad:

As I previously wrote: If farmers throughout the past few centuries had always had it their own way, there would not be a single bird, fox, or other mammal or even insect remaining alive in the wild today. Just those which are farmed... :}

Whereas in India (for example) where ostensibly upwards of 2/3rds of farmers' crops never "make it to the market", whether because of "losses in the fields", poor transportation, poor storage facilities etc. All I can say is that Indian wildlife are presumably much "better off" compared to the Western cousins. Indians are currently producing much more than they need for their own consumption - this shows that (when and if required), Indian farmers could still continue to supply the market sufficiently, in spite of any eventual drought etc. (That's what is known as "food security".) :confused:

If UK farmers can't supply UK demand for their products without exterminating badgers, then that's for the UK to decide. If UK farmers can't supply foreign demand for their products without exterminating badgers because British cattle destined for export might be infected with TB, that's another issue.

Get rid of all the UK's TB bovine carriers. All the UK's badgers. By all means, as is currently on-going. If only to satisfy overseas markets for GB produce.

Hitler couldn't get rid of all the Jews. The UK Dept. of Agriculture won't eradicate TB in cattle by exterminating all the badgers.

Presumably, I'm addressing my concerns to both JBers (of varying IQ) and those whom our taxes pay employing all those "highly-qualified" college graduates on whom our politicians base their claims...?!

Perhaps, in view of the difficult circumstances most western-European countries find themselves in late 2013, we should simply stop paying for all "higher education"...?! :ok:

VP959
15th Oct 2013, 18:06
Get rid of all the UK's TB bovine carriers. All the UK's badgers. By all means, as is currently on-going. If only to satisfy overseas markets for GB produce.

Hitler couldn't get rid of all the Jews. The UK Dept. of Agriculture won't eradicate TB in cattle by exterminating all the badgers.


Perhaps a few facts might help.

The badger cull is NOT aimed to get rid of all the UKs badgers at all. It's a trial that's designed to find out if shooting badgers is practicable and if reducing badger numbers in a small number of trial locations has an impact on the prevalence of TB in those areas.

The evidence from places like Ireland (where they have been culling badgers for years) has shown a significant decrease in bovine TB.

In my view, the best solution to the TB problem would be to eradicate it from both cattle and badgers. Prior to the trial cull programme we took the view that slaughtering around 30,000 to 40,000 cattle every year because of TB was acceptable, but shooting a single badger was not.

The trial cull programme in its entirety is only designed to slaughter 2,670 badgers, somewhat fewer than the monthly number of cattle that are slaughtered because of TB.

SpringHeeledJack
15th Oct 2013, 18:50
I don't know about TB transference, but last week I bumped into a chap who I see now and again and he had spent the previous week at home suffering from foot and mouth disease, although his hands were also affected. He's a city dweller and it's a possibility that it was transferred by fox :eek:



SHJ

ShyTorque
15th Oct 2013, 18:57
Not to be confused with hand, foot and mouth disease.
Foot-and-mouth disease

Foot-and-mouth disease or hoof-and-mouth disease (Aphthae epizooticae) is an infectious and sometimes fatal viral disease that affects cloven-hoofed animals, including domestic and wild bovids. The virus causes a high fever for two or three days, followed by blisters inside the mouth and on the feet that may rupture and cause lameness.

Get him to show you his feet. If they are cloven, back away.

SpringHeeledJack
15th Oct 2013, 19:23
Get him to show you his feet. If they are cloven, back away.

There is something about him that is a bit demonic now that you mention it :} Perhaps he had the non cloven hoofed variety ?



SHJ

airship
23rd Oct 2013, 19:05
Why grant an extension to the badger-culling until the 18th December only (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-24642465)? Why not upto and including 25th December? That way, we could regale all our children on X'mas eve - "you know what might be waiting for you in the morning...?!" And a badger (if lucky) would get a bullet in the brain. Or if unlucky, spend X'mas day crawling about in agony whilst you open up all your presents, enjoy lunch and go to sleep later knowing that "all is well in the World"...?! :confused:

ShyTorque
23rd Oct 2013, 19:08
There's always a few badgers loose after Christmas lunch.

I think it's the sprouts...