EK 241 (A380) Diversion to Washington IAD, Crew Duty?

[Skywards747]

EK 241 just declared a diversion to IAD after holding for just over 1 hour in Toronto.
CYYZ 082109Z 36019G26KT 1/4SM R05/5500FT/U R06L/3500FT/N +SN +BLSN VV004 M09/ RMK SN8

Declared braking action Medium to Poor on the only operating runway which is 05.

EK website is showing 2 hours on ground in IAD and back to Toronto at 2100 LT. By that time, pilots would have been on duty for 20 hours at least. I don't think EK has any 380 pilots in IAD and the most of pax will not have any type of visa to US.

I am glad that I am not on that flight, either as a crew or passenger.

[Skywards747]

Unfortunately positioning a crew from Toronto to Washington is not an option as all the flights between YYZ-IAD / DCA have been cancelled.

One option could be to position a 380 crew from NY by train.

I never mentioned a visa issue for crew but for the passengers.

[Poire]

A ULR flight duty time is 22 hours.
Unfortunately, they would be "legal" to return from IAD to YYZ.

[givemewings]

Okay, maybe not in this case then. But yes, they would still be legal up to a certain point. Not a lot you can do about snow, at least it's an easy one for the pax to grasp so hopefully they wouldn't give the crew too much grief over the delay... imho wx delays are the best because one look out the window explains everything! technical delays, not so much....

I suppose they (airline and airport) will just deal with it like they always have. There would be some kind of contingency plan in place for this type of thing.

Am aware you didn't mention crew but was just saying this is why most smart airlines require a US visa for Canada-bound ULR flights...

[fatbus]

All crew operating to Canada have a US visa?

[Watchdog]

All the North America operating crew would be on the EK 'Master crew list' (meaning they'd have the crew visa)

[givemewings]

Fatbus, correct, they will not roster YYZ to crew without a US crew visa (as of about 6 months ago)

Would assume same for cockpit crew but you guys of course would know more about that. Can't see why they wouldn't do the same, makes sense..

[GoreTex]

Emirates doesn't have flight time limitations, only extensions

[fatbus]

No extensions to ULR's.

[springbok449]

I thought those extensions were called annexes...?! ;)

[Swansafa]

No extensions to ULR's.

In "extraordinary circumstances" the limitations may be waived. The choice to waive these limitations, once approved, is the Captain's.

I think we all know what that means.

Around here, "extraordinary" means a delay taking the FDP over 22hrs. I agree, a 22hr day would be extraordinary.

[BDD]

So, in the end, what happened???

[Plank Cap]

Just for the record, it is possible to refuse to go beyond the 22 hour FDP on a ULR flight and not be in trouble.

Be very willing to work up to the full legal 22 hours, but when dealing with the company pressure that will come to continue into the 23rd, 24th etc hour, keep it factual and honest but be firm and stand your ground. Draw a line in the sand, and just politely say no...

The company will want you to continue with the flight. But remember, you can only carry on with the FDP beyond 22 hours ultimately with the operating Captain's acceptance. If you are not happy, do not accept.

I speak from experience.

[Skywards747]

This is what happened. (All times local)
EK241/08 Feb
DXB ATD 1056 (Scheduled 0955)
IAD ATA 1737

IAD ATD 1902
YYZ ATA 2226 (DXB Time : 0726)

I will leave it to EK guys to workout the actual duty time but look like at least 22+ hours total duty.

[Plank Cap]

So, if Skywards747's times above are accurate, an FDP on the day of 22:31. No discretion possible on the ULR FDP beyond 22 hr, but that all encompassing statement in the regs that the limitations of FDP (22 hr max) may be waived with Fleet Chief Pilot approval. Crucially, it is the Commander's choice whether to accept this waiver or not.

Remember too, that as Ima Birdbrain states above, there is no minimum rest period stated down route for any ULR. The concept of 'rest period equaling the length of the preceeding duty' is not accepted by the company, as in their opinion that limitation applies only to the standard FDP regs, not the ULR regs. Extending the duty day outbound doesn't leave much hotel time (particularly on a ULR with 24-30 hr layover) before being expected to operate the return sector.

I do not judge any crew to play it as they see fit, but refusing to extend beyond the 22 hr limit is not an automatic interview or disciplinary matter. Once again, it is ultimately the Commander's choice.

[Skywards747]

The actual times that I quoted came from the flight Status on EK Website.

The one factor to consider is when the flight from IAD departed back to YYZ, the scheduled time of arrival was 2100 LT. So they were envisioning a duty time of around 21 hours at that stage.

But due to a 30+ minute arrival holding and another one hour wait between landing and block in (it was really messy that night), ATA was 2227.

[glofish]

But due to a 30+ minute arrival holding and another one hour wait between landing and block in (it was really messy that night)

I guess nobody involved anticipated any further delay after the diversion, although it was "really messy" that night ....... That's called planning ahead, situational awareness, local and meteorological knowledge and common sense ...... :ugh:

Read Contacted's contribution and then think again:
" .... rests solely with the Commander".

On days like that the risk of putting a wheel slightly outside a taxiway, or worse is much higher. And then they will hold the above sentence under your nose and rub it in deep and deeper.

I have done 21h in normal circumstances (technical delay) and I was dead tired. Our all performance was below par and we would have had a difficult time handling any additional incident.

Be extremely careful with such limits!