Harrier cockpit

[Dr Jekyll]

I had a chance to sit in the cockpit of G VTOL at Brooklands the other week. What surprised me was that the HUD was level with my neck and I was looking down on top of the windscreen. I doubt if I could have closed the canopy if I'd tried, let alone if I'd been wearing a helmet.

But I'm only 6FT tall. There is a bit of padding on the seat that might have made a bit of difference but not that much. Can I assume there is some vertical adjustment and the seat was in the highest position?

Or was G VTOL especiallu cramped being a one off?

[Lightning Mate]

The seat was adjustable vertically like all military fighters.

I think the Harrier seat was electrical with the switch on the left console.

I expect John Farley will be along shortly along with other Harrier mates.

[603DX]

I sat in the cockpit about three years ago, and one of the volunteer guide chaps took my picture from the port side. I have just checked the pic, and as a 5' 11" tall individual, the top of my head was about 5" below the top of the two side pieces of the ejector seat headrest immediately behind me. These obviously have to clear the canopy when this is closed, so my noggin would have had ample clearance from the canopy.

It seems possible that since I occupied John Farley's former working seat, someone has either raised the seat higher by its adjustment device, or added a fat cushion. Of course, I suppose it's also a possibility that despite your height and mine being only an inch apart when standing, you may have a much greater seated height than me. We are not all similarly proportioned, some have short legs but taller upper body dimensions.

[John Farley]

Dr Jekyll

The correct height for any individual in any military cockpit fitted with a HUD is that which makes their eye line level with the centre of the HUD display.
Known as the 'eye datum' this eye position is what the whole cockpit layout is designed around. This is actually lower than most people would like to sit from a simple external view point of view, which is of course at its best when your helmet is almost touching the canopy.

With everybody's eye at the eye datum height then canopy to helmet clearance is clearly not affected by individual height or sitting height. Although cone-heads may have a problem.

The seat was obviously fully up when you were in it - what a pity you did not ask your guide how to lower it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/GVTOLChristoCloseup_zps2abba057.jpg

[603DX]

John Farley, what a superb "I wuz 'ere" shot for both on board in Rio!

[fantom]

Ah... Hawker S.

[Dr Jekyll]

John

The guide did remark on my 'tank commander' seating position, but suggested that Harrier pilots were on the small side. So I concluded any adjustment was minimal. I'll remember next time.

[fantom]

but suggested that Harrier pilots were on the small side.

Have you met Vaughn Dow?

[John Farley]

Funny I thought they were the biggest pilots in the business..................

[Lightning Mate]

John:

Met many Lightning pilots?.......:E

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Concorde has an eye datum tool on the flight deck comprising solid 'spectacles' with a hole drilled in each 'eyepiece'. It is stowed in a pocket by the P1 foot well and us used by plugging it into the overhead centre panel and positioning the seat so the pilot's eyes line up with the holes in the datum.

I've asked a few, but I've yet to meet a Concorde pilot who used it!

[bonajet]

On converting to the Harrier, I chose the usual high seat position, in order to see as much of the outside world as possible. When weaponeering or combat started and the HUD became more important, stooping forward was needed to see properly through it, whilst keeping the same old picture for VSTOL. After years of G like this, some of us on the squadron had a palm sized callous over the lumbar region of our spines.
Things you do for fun!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Before I bought my share in the Yak52 many years ago, I had a familiarisation flight in it by the guy setting up the group. I was in the back cockpit and the top of my bone dome only just cleared the perspex.

He flew a sequence of advanced aerobatics - twice! When we got back, there was plenty of space twixt helmet and canopy! It's amazing what a bit of extreme 'G' will do, even though you've tightened the straps as tight as they'll go!

[John Farley]

Lightning Mate

Yes.

Indeed I tended to admire them (as they seemed to expect) until we had a couple of Lightnings to play with (so that the boffins could understand about shock waves in close formation). After that I tended to wonder wot on earth Lightning pilots were on about. Mind you I could guess.

[JW411]

John Farley:

Was that G-VTOL at Rio in September 1973 after being delivered inside the CL-44 Guppy before (or after) the air display at Sao Jose dos Campos?

I was in the Belfast that delivered the single-seat Harrier from Wittering to Sao Paulo. What an unbelievable farce that turned out to be!

[India Four Two]

What an unbelievable farce that turned out to be!

We demand details! ;)

[John Farley]

JW411

Yes, that was indeed taken on the South American tour of ’73 that you refer to.

Don Riches (the other Dunsfold pilot and in the back in the pic) and I were kept pretty busy. The tour ran from Sept 12 to October 19 and consisted of 63 flights of demonstrations, pilot familiarisations and even carrier operations.

The tour sequence was:

Brazil (Galeao - San Jose - Santa Cruz - San Pedro – Galeao)
Paraguay (Asuncion)
Bolivia (Cochabamba)
Peru (Lima)
Ecuador (Guayaquil - Quito - Guayaquil - Quito)
Peru (Lima - Las Palmas and back to Lima where the aircraft was broken down for return to Dunsfold)

I did not realise (or have forgotten) there were dramas with your Belfast based RAF expedition – can you remind us?

[JW411]

BAe decided they wanted to have a single seat "fighting" Harrier at the air display. MOD agreed to lend them one. I was a co-pilot on the Belfast at the time. We proposed an itinerary from Wittering to Rio to our lords and masters at Upavon.

We were told that we couldn't go to Rio for there was no equipment there to unload a Harrier cradle. We asked them how Transmeridian were going to get G-VTOL out of the Guppy at Rio when their freight bay was 12 feet in the air!

The contingency planners were adamant that we had to go to Sao Paulo as they had a transverse loader and a suitable overhead crane to lift the wings back on to the fuselage.

When we got there, the transverse loader (made by Fred Laker's Aviation Traders) hadn't moved in living memory and wouldn't start or do anything it was supposed to do. So, the RAF lads rebuilt it. Next it was discovered that the wonderful crane in the hangar was all rusted up and the lads had to rebuild that.

Finally, the Harrier was ready to go and the pilot (I think he was a Sqn Ldr from Wittering) got in and started to do his checks. As you would imagine, the aircraft was getting a lot of attention from the locals.

Enter a messenger from stage left with an important message. It seemed that there had been a crash at Wittering caused, I think, by some nuts working loose and migrating into the compressor. The aircraft had to be inspected before next flight and if the fitted nuts were pre-Mod xxx then it was not to fly. Needless to say, it was indeed pre-Mod xxx and it did not fly!

BAe were not happy and promised to look after the problem. I think they even offered to buy the aeroplane back but MOD were unbending.

We did an "ET" and phoned home. "What do you want us to do?" "Come home." "What about the Harrier?" "We'll take it to pieces and send another Belfast to collect it."

That's what I call a farce.

[John Farley]

That's what I call a farce

Sounds reasonable. Mind you it had nothing to do with BAe which was not born until 29 April 1977.

[JW411]

All right John; then who was it? BAC, Hawkers, Hawker Siddley or who?

The result was still the same.

By the way, I had a beer with Eddie before Christmas and he's still alive and kicking.

[spekesoftly]

BAC, Hawkers, Hawker Siddley or who?

There's a clue in the company logo on the Harrier nose cone in post #4. ;)

[John Farley]

All right John; then who was it? BAC, Hawkers, Hawker Siddley or who?

Sorry none of those.

Hawker Siddeley.

Attention to detail is important - as I am sure Eddie would agree

[PAXboy]

Great thread, thank you. Perhaps the high seat level of thw exhibition a/c was deliberate to make it easier for photos to be taken from ground level - showing the visitor? If the seat was at working height, they might not be visible?

[603DX]

I think you may have the answer there, PAXboy. On my Brooklands visit I noticed a queue of young children were taking turns to sit in G-VTOL, helped by the volunteer guide. I confess that despite my mature years, I too wanted to try it out, but felt a bit embarrassed about it, so wandered off elsewhere.

Later, when the children had gone, I slipped back and was invited to take a turn by the same guide, who said he had seen me looking envious earlier. I think he had probably had the seat raised to its highest position for the youngsters, then returned it to a lower setting which suited me fine, and offered to record the scene for me on my camera. Possibly when Dr Jekyll took his turn recently, it had simply been left high after some youngsters?

[JW411]

John:

There was a time when I thought that a pedant was someone who looked after in-growing toe nails.

Then I discovered that my dear old mother was going to a gyrocopter to have her feet looked at.

But that was actually a malaprop which I had always thought had something to do with scaffolding.

At least I know that there are two "f"s in paraffin.

I will try to buck up but I suspect that it is too late.

By the way, I can remember reading about the Armstrong Whitworth Argosy in the "Flight" magazine before I joined the RAF. By the time I got on to the manufacturers course at Baginton, it had become the Whitworth Gloster Argosy and by the time I got on to my first squadron, it had become the Hawker Siddeley HS 660 Argosy.

I hope you can forgive me; Eddie won't!

[John Farley]

JW411

Nothing to forgive I assure you.

Spoke to Eddie this afternoon. He still tries to inflict his red pen on me ('cor he was/is good at that). We tried to work out who you might be from JW411 but could find nothing conclusive - although mid east transport ops were clearly the main focus. He is in good if slightly declining shape (as indeed I am too).

[JW411]

John:

Good to hear that you spoke to Eddie. I shall go and see him next month.

Anyway, my curiosity has got the better of me and I have been doing a bit of research into which Harrier accident caused the Sao Paulo Harrier to be grounded.

We left Brize on 09 September 73 and flew up to Wittering in XR364 to collect the "fighting" Harrier. It was loaded on to its cradle during the night and we left Wittering on 10 September and flew directly to Sal. After a night stop, we flew to Sao Paulo via Recife and so arrived on 11 September.

I have found five Harrier accidents in 1973 and the most likely candidate is:

06 September 73 GR3 XV750 20 Sqn Wildenrath "Engine cut, abandoned."

Was this the one where the compressor casing nuts went down the compressor?

I note that 20 Sqn lost three Harriers in two months in Germany. The other two were caused by bird strikes.

[Dr Jekyll]

Did any South American countries show interest in buying Harriers?

[JW411]

As far as I know, no South American country ever bought the Harrier.

Certainly, if you had seen the large audience of expectant voyeurs at Sao Paulo (the biggest city in Brazil) watch the RAF rebuild most of their ground equipment, assemble a Harrier and then take it to bits again without the engine ever having been started would possibly have attracted a bit of a politically negative audience. (the population of Sao Paulo is around 11 million people).

Things might have been quite different if the Harrier had duly got airborne and done a decent display.

[John Farley]

JW411

My mind has a complete blank about RAF probs at Sao Paulo. I did not arrive there in G-VTOL until the evening of 14 Sept having been quite busy at Rio for several days so perhaps I just did not have the spare horsepower to take in the RAF doings and it sounds as if you had left before I arrived.

You are right that no South American country bought the Harrier. The Navies of Brazil and Argentina were keenest. Indeed a year or two earlier I had flown from the Argentine 25th De Mayo in a single seater when the ship was on its delivery voyage from Holland down the English Channel. As always traditional navy operators were staggered at the ease of flying Harrier to and from the deck, especially the way the aircraft was self contained and needed no ‘yellow gear’ (flight deck ground equipment). However our price was so much more than the second hand A-4s from the USN that they inevitably went with the A-4. Given what happened 10 years later perhaps things turned out for the best.

Two points stand out in my memory about the Sao Paolo display (the first of its kind in South America). At the end of the pre-display brief to a very impressive room full of international display folk from all over the place I realised I had not hoisted in the min display height. So during question time I asked what it was and was told by the briefer “Don’t hit the ground”. We Farnborough/Paris European type mates looked at each other and as we left decided we were going to use 50ft.

The other memory I have was later in the week when I was in our chalet and somebody stuck his head and said “Come and see this”. This was a lad in an aerobatic light aircraft (a Decathlon) who was going up and down the display runway doing rolls and getting lower and lower. Somebody said his slot had finished several minutes earlier but he was refusing ATC’s order to land. After watching a couple more passes I said that I thought he intended to commit suicide and I was not going to stay and watch the inevitable. Back in the chalet some minutes later I heard the expected sounds as he went in. Sad.

Sorry – I went off on one.

[Peter-RB]

I was stood about 4 ft from a Full Harrier ex RN with dummy rockets on wing pylons yesterday in Mid Cheshire, the many who owns it is an avid collector of all sorts of flying things, and it take pride of place in his factory Gardens almost a sort of gate Guardian but in Civvy surrounds.

Peter R-B
Lancashire

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Peter, is it a secret where that is? I live in Cheshire and I'd quite like to see it.

[Peter-RB]

Hi SSD

No secret, look for the Winsford MOT centre on Woodford Park, almost withing cricket ball throwing distance of the Cheshire Police HQ, the owner seems also to own most of the rest of the Industrial estate, so me thinks his hobby is spending some made money on trinkets of the heavier than Air type things, if you go there, talk to him he is also a Heli Pilot and has some really interesting engines fitted onto stands that are fully functioning and with auto starts all he has to do is pressurise the fuel systems and press the green buttons, I called in for a quick question but left about 1 hour later.

Peter R-B
Lancashire:ok:

[JW411]

John:

I think we are talking somewhat at cross purposes. We took the Wittering Harrier to Sao Paulo Congonhas civil airport which is on a plateau in the middle of the city.

The Harrier was supposed to fly from Congonhas to Sao Jose dos Campos (where the air display was to be held) after assembly.

[John Farley]

JW411

Sorry! That explains everything.

Good luck with Eddie.

[John Farley]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/SHARpic_zps4b9fd133.jpg

[aviate1138]

Picture by 'bigdutchman'

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/ScreenShot2013-02-16at060116_zps99c5fb1f.png

[Peter-RB]

Thats the one in Cheshire, took me by suprise when I rounded the corner, to see one of the best A/C we Brits ever had, short sighted Politics and those who preach such sh 1 te got rid well before their sell by date.:=

Peter R-B
Lancashire

[603DX]

Maybe it's stretching things a bit, but we might comfort ourselves a little with the thought that the 72 prematurely retired Harrier IIs sold to the USMC by the MoD in 2011 will still be helping 'to defend the free world' as a components source to keep their AV-8B Harrier II fleet operational.

After all, we are generally on the same side of the fence in situations requiring the deployment of these excellent machines. It's just a crying shame that they won't have British servicemen flying them ... :hmm:

[lmgaylard]

Yes they will.....;)

[603DX]

How come, Imgaylard? Please tell us ...

[lmgaylard]

I am working on a magazine article about the current FAA pilots who are on exchange tours.
One of the pilots, who is currently with the French Navy, has told me that towards the end of the Year, he and a couple of others will transfer to the USMC to fly AV/8Bs...........That's if plans don't change....

[CesarMA2016]

Hello my friends, my name is Cesar Mercado Alva, from Lima Peru... and i want to write a message to Mr. John Farley...
can someone tell him about me ?

Thanks a lot.

[CesarMA2016]

My Friends, im here again.
I want to write some mail or message to John Farley.... can someone help me tell him about a Peruvian is try to write him?

Mi email es [email protected]

thanks

[TEEEJ]

My Friends, im here again.
I want to write some mail or message to John Farley.... can someone help me tell him about a Peruvian is try to write him?

Mi email es [email protected]

thanks
See "Social Profiles" at the following link.

http://www.pprune.org/members/9046-john-farley

[CesarMA2016]

Thanks but im no allowed to send private messages.

[TEEEJ]

Thanks but im no allowed to send private messages.

I've sent John a private message with links to your posts.

[John Farley]

Thanks TEEEJ

All sorted

JF

[PDR1]

one of the best A/C we Brits ever had, short sighted Politics and those who preach such sh 1 te got rid well before their sell by date.

I'll preface this by saying that I was a Harrier and SHAR man at Kingston/Dunsfold/Farnborough for 23 years, and the sight of one still swells my chest with pride, but we need to be realistic.

The SHAR in its FA2 guise had grown to a weight that was a serious operational limitation for maritime (vertical landing) operations. The only way this issue could be addressed was to fit the "big" 11-61 engine, and that entailed a leap into the unknown because it had never flown behind a Harrier-I intake. It also only had a single generator fit where blue-water operations demanded a twin-generator fit with consequent risk in unproven gearbox changes. All of this could be done, but the associated engineering and clearances came with a huge price tag.

At the same time it was becoming clear that to "play" in a NATO battlespace you needed SIFF, and as well as being an expensive upgrade in its own right, fitting SIFF to the SHAR needed the core computer upgrade (that was coming with the JTIDS integration, but was still expensive) and it also needed a colour main display in the cockpit. With the displays available at the time a colour display simply wouldn't fit without putting a bulge in the fuselage skin in front of the windscreen, and there were lots of reasons why this was likely to have serious side effects.

So to keep the SHAR in service at that particular time needed a large investment with a disproportionately high technical risk. So it was regrettably deemed unaffordable. It was a real shame, but a rational review would (I'm sure) still come to the same conclusions.

€0.03 supplied,

PDR