PAS Offer and FRI's?

[Spiro]

Soooooooo....having been offered PA this year can any of you helpful people out there tell me if PAS still comes with the FRI? Tried numerous searches of the AFPRB reports and find no mention of it recently. Last time it was mentioned was 2010 report.

Also, anybody have a link to the ToC's for PA handy, PM me please as life changing decisions for me and her indoors need to be made!

Thanks.

[Jambo Jet]

I dont think PA comes with an FRI.

I do think that if you have served up to your 16/38 point right now and choose to remain in service (up until 1 Apr 13 this year) you can apply for an FRI and the associated ROS. Beyond that I do not know.

PA does come with a 5 yr ROS and a forfeit of the right to PVR

[theboywide]

I'm not so sure. Thought that if you accept PAS
and an FRI came in before your 16/38 point that you were eligible but I'd love to get mannings take on it?

By all respects it sounds like the PAS offers were given out to lots of people today.

[Arty Fufkin]

No FRI anymore.

If you accept the PA offer, your exit date is instantly moved to your 55th birthday. Therefore, to leave before 55 you must PVR and in doing so sacrifice about 10% of any pension rights you would have otherwise been entitled to.
Additionaly, your acceptance of PA ties you in to a non-negotiable 5year ROS from your original 16/38 point, not date of acceptance, despite not actually knowing under what terms of service (regarding pensions at least) you will be under post 2015. That same commitment used to be worth 80k under FRI 3.

The draw would be the knowledge that you won't be kicked out at the end of your existing engagement.That aside, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Neither it would seem would most of the recipients of PA offers.

Good luck.

[iRaven]

Yup, as Arty says, watch out for 2015 - new pension (FAFPS) and new terms of service (NEM) may make PAS a far worse deal than it was in its heyday.

The PAS deal with AFPS05 was scandelous and completely screwed up the rank/remuneration structure. You had Flt Lts retiring on Gp Capt equivalent pensions and then others that had advanced to Sqn Ldr and then Wg Cdr retiring on less. The last bits of big FRI was reserved to entice aircrew who got promoted and to make them stay in past 16/38. If PAS is not such a good deal under the new pension scheme (FAFPS) then the problem will be sorted.

"Buyer beware" is all I can say. :eek:

[sargs]

The PAS deal with AFPS05 was scandelous...

By this I presume you weren't PAS, and/or AFPS05? I'm both, and it's not scandalous, it's a fair reward for 35 years dedicated service as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time....

[just another jocky]

By this I presume you weren't PAS, and/or AFPS05? I'm both, and it's not scandalous, it's a fair reward for 35 years dedicated service as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time....

Wot e sed! :E

[bob9]

Spiro,
FRI3 for SO2 and 3 aircrew is in place till 31 Mar 13. Your career manager can tell you if you are eligible or not. After that it is a simple form that needs to be filled out and then returned to Manning. £100K for SO2 and £80K for SO3(Pre tax). Hope that helps:)

[Arty Fufkin]

Bob,

You are quite correct, however:

The FRI must be paid by March. If your current exit date is after March you will not get a FRI. I should have been clearer, but I was assuming that anyone who is receiving a PA offer for the first time is well over a year away from going onto the scheme. Hence no FRI.

As I said before, I believe the uptake of PA offers is extremely low because there seems to be very little tangible benefit to committing open endedly to another 5 years. Make that 7 if you accept the offer 2years before your IPP. No cash up front and potentialy no extra pension benefits until way into the future. If indeed there are any PA pension benefits.

Having said that, I think I'd accept the offer if:

I had some very serious doubts about my employability outside.

I really really loved the RAF and wouldn't consider working for anyone else.


I haven't met many who fall into the latter cattegory. As for the former, I guess the only people accepting PA offers are WSOs. If they're not, are you really retaing the highest calibre of individual? If the training pipeline is closed and no one stays on to fly past their IPP, I can foresee a big pilot shortfall in the next 5 years. Maybe there will be a FRI 4 in about 2015?

Never mind, I'm sure it'll be fine.

[Uncle Ginsters]

So, it seems after the extremely low uptake due to the poor terms of last year's offer, Manning have decide to <drum-roll please> offer exactly the same again, but to more people :ugh::oh:

[Lima Juliet]

By this I presume you weren't PAS, and/or AFPS05? I'm both, and it's not scandalous, it's a fair reward for 35 years dedicated service as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time...

Let's just dissect this for iRaven's benefit.

"It's a fair reward for 35 years of dedicated service" - there are plenty of Service people that do 35 years of dedicated service and get only half the amount at 55; I suspect they would not think it is "fair"!

"as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time..." - so you've stayed doing what you love doing, you're probably 'above average' (just like the aircrew that get promoted to Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr but have had to do a staff job inbetween), you're probably 'welded' to your MOB for many years for stability and you haven't had to do any of the other 'nause' because you've declared your hand that you don't want the extra stress and responsibility of promotion by staying PAS?

I envy you my friend, as you have landed 'the deal of the century'! However, I also believe that the original scheme was poorly thought through and could be described as "scandelous" by many not in the scheme. I suspect that the golden age of PAS will draw to a close by 2015 as it is unaffordable and also it has fed the need for £100k SO2 FRIs that are also unaffordable.

Enjoy what you've secured for yourself - you were in the right place at the right time. :ok:

LJ

[Biggus]

Scandalous is a very emotive word to use - over generous might be a better choice. It was an official system introduced by the MOD, not some sort of con. Anyone who took up the offer should be deemed to have been fortunate - not in any way appear to be criminalized as a result.



Various ground ranks/trades, who are also seeing considerable experience leaving, often on compulsory redundancy, might consider the whole issue of paying FRIs to aircrew (in addition to receiving flying pay, or generous PA spine pay) to "continue doing what they love doing" scandalous....?

I guess like most things in life, it's all a matter of perspective.

[isaneng]

Just a heads up, couple of our chaps took the PAS & FRI last year. I believe they got an unexpected tax bill, as it took their annual income above the next level, affecting their basic income tax threshold. I'm sure some of our resident experts can explain properly!

[sargs]

Let me just explain, for Leon Jabachjabicz benefit.

It's a fair reward for what I have done in my career. The other people? Well, that I would regard as unfair; if they've worked as hard and as loyally as me, they deserve it too.

Yes, I've stayed doing what I love - but that's the point. I joined to do what I do, and I'm very good at it - as you suspect, I'm "above average" in my present role and all the roles I've had before - all 35 years of them. That's a good thing for the Service and a good thing for the taxpayer, and that's why I deserve the remuneration I get.

Yes, I have landed the "deal of the century", but that doesn't mean I should warrant your (or iRavens) opprobrium - perhaps you should examine everybody else's pay scale and critique that. You could instead regard it as a rare flash of recognition in an otherwise uninspired series of pay reviews.

Yes, I am going to enjoy what I've "secured" myself - whilst I was "in the right place at the right time" it's nothing less than I deserve - the fact that others, who may deserve it just as much as I, don't get it is not down to me. I'm sorry for them, but instead of coming into this thread and having a go at me and others like me, perhaps you may wish to redirect your energies to other threads where a lack of a suitable reward to Servicemen generally is a hot topic.

[Lima Juliet]

Sargs

I agree that there are deserving cases, but then there are other PAS individuals who are pretty uninspirational and are going to get paid a mahoosive pension. The Spec Aircrew scheme worked well, was popular, and I don't know why the RAF decided to instigate PAS and AFPS05 and create such a large chasm between PAS and 'the general list' (whatever it is called these days). That has lead to the £100k FRI for SO2s being offered, which has further drained resources.

I'm not having a go at you Sargs, me old, it's just the system that created the monster that is called PAS and AFPS05. It has created an expectation for a Flt Lt Pilot to earn up to £72.5k per year, with all the other entitlements like CEA (~£15k/year), HTD (up to ~£3k per year), free health care, cheap quarters, etc.., etc... Then it is topped off by a pension at age 55 of ~£35k+. I just don't see why anyone would press for promotion under that system and why they had to effectively 'bribe' individuals to take Sqn Ldr promotion with the offer of £100k at their immediate pension point as an FRI.

Biggus, I agree, "scandelous" is a strong word, but when we pay our Army privates <£20k per year to get their arses shot at in Afghanistan, how can we justify not being slightly emotive about it?

Again, this is not a personal attack on Sargs, it is my personal opinion on a system that to me has been devisive against all the other branches. I had FRI 1 and FRI 2 and I was very grateful, but I do feel embarrassed if the subject is raised in front of fellow officers (such as engineers, RAFP, RAF Regt, etc...) who have not been so fortunate, but have, in my opinion, been just as deserving.

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

EGDG

Leon was one of my studes several years ago, and though his attitude far outdid his ability he got through with the next course that I had nothing to do with

Mate, never failed a course in my whole career - do explain how I "got through with the next course" :ok:

[Just This Once...]

EGDG, I've known Leon for over 20 years so your next post needs to be phenomenally good.

[Uncle Ginsters]

The trouble with the timing and direction of previous FRIs is that, in most cases, they were paid to those who were already staying in, hence the 'embarrassment' of some of those in Leon's position.

I think if a similar FRI were to be offered now to Flt Lts then it could tip the balance for many of those genuinely considering leaving...

Manning appear concerned...all of the Oxonian Sqn's were asked this week to provide stats on percentages of ATPL-equipped or planned pilots. The numbers are pretty high on my Sqn and doubtless so elsewhere.

[Lima Juliet]

Uncle G

The FRI2 kept me in at 16/38, but the FRI1 was a complete gift! Either way, no one begged me to stay when I PVR'd 5 years later! :ok:

[high spirits]

Is it true they have delayed the Sqn Ldr PAS board till march? Is this to see how many take up on Flt Lt board, or am I reading too much into it?

[iRaven]

Back to my comments, I stand by them (even if I had sunk a few IPAs before typing). I remember when "Offo" came and briefed everyone on PAS and some of us stared in disbelief. We new it was going to be devisive, even amongst the aircrew cadre (both Spec Aircrew and the career minded). It would create a system where aircrew of similar age, capability, performance and experience could earn vastly different wages and pensions - fair, it was not! (in my best Yoda voice).

Ever since it came in, it has created "have's and have nots" and for every person it seemed "fair" to there was another who thought it unfair.

I think it will be hard to justify PAS on its current terms in future now that jobs in the airlines are no longer guaranteed thanks to the loss of bridging within CAP804. That's not my sour-grapes speaking, but just how it appears to be shaping up.

iRaven

[Lockstock]

It would create a system where aircrew of similar age, capability, performance and experience could earn vastly different wages and pensions - fair, it was not! (in my best Yoda voice)

Yes but different skills and that's what made it fair and non-devisive.

[Easy Street]

jobs in the airlines are no longer guaranteed thanks to the loss of bridging within CAP804

I've got to agree, although it's not just the loss of bridging, it's the expectation by the airlines that their first officers will be spotty oiks straight out of school. Speaking from a FJ pilot perspective, an second career with the airlines appears to be very much harder to achieve now than, say, 10-15 years ago. Those of my acquaintances who have done it have all had wives with significant income to keep the family afloat during the 'lean' early years, and have had the benefit of influential contacts within airlines. I think there are far more FJ people looking away from flying for their second career than was the case before. Things should be different for the multi-engine crowd, assuming any value is placed on their experience....

As for PA / AFPS 05, one thing about it that grips my sh*t is when 'average' front-line people qualify on the basis of 'above-average' performances on instructional tours, and then spend the majority of their time as PA back on the front-line and unable to contribute in the capacity intended by the scheme. When we do get lucky and get a PA QWI or EWI, they really are worth the money.

[Spiro]

Many thanks for the info guys, off to mull things over. Civvie street beckons though I reckon.

[von Klinkerz]

Does this round of PA offer service to 55 or 60? What with the new pension not paying out until 60…

von K

[Lima Juliet]

Von K

You make a good point. There is supposed to be a mechanism to 'de-rate' the pension sums for those that retire early before 60 under some old terms of service - but the detail of that is yet to come (the term is "actuarially reduce " I believe?). I suspect we won't know until the New Employment Model (NEM) is published and, for some, it will probably be too late to do anything about...

For those needing to make a decision now they are simply in the "wrong place at the wrong time". Just like those Spec Aircrew types that chose not to go to PAS and AFPS05 when the schemes started up ~10 years ago...:sad:

LJ

PS - Here is link to the following quote: Future Armed Forces Pension Scheme (http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/news/index.cfm?storyid=3A8CA6D5-5056-A318-A84F57FD8EC2FB81&rss=true)

Under current regulations an actuarially reduced pension is payable within 5 years of the current NPA, this will continue in the new scheme and an actuarially reduced pension could be paid from age 55

[MechGov]

Leon you said.....

" it's just the system that created the monster that is called PAS and AFPS05. It has created an expectation for a Flt Lt Pilot to earn up to £72.5k per year"

Your numbers are a bit shy its more like 80k with PA level 35.

Cheers

[VinRouge]

Flt lt can't get to level 35 now without getting promoted to Sqn Ldr.

No bucks, no buck rogers.

The current aviation industry jobs shortage will resolve itself. It's quite simple, want to keep hold of the most experienced, best trained aircrew? It costs. If the government wants to continue its forrays abroad and retain the experience in order to do so, they better put their hands in their pockets.

[BEagle]

...now that jobs in the airlines are no longer guaranteed thanks to the loss of bridging within CAP804...

As the 'credit' available under part O is so pathetic, my feeling is that whereas the previous scheme might have retained a few experienced pilots until they reached the 2000TT/1500PIC point, the new scheme will simply encourage people to think "What the hell is the point of staying in?" and to pull the B&Y.

If that's proving to be the case, well, I told you so!

[von Klinkerz]

Looking through some Best Buy annuities online, it seems if you buy an annuity at 60 instead of 65 (with the same size pension pot), you get about 12-15% less per annum (index-linked, Mrs gets some if you croak etc). Very rough and ready, but does anyone know if that's what 'actuarially fair' might actually mean?

I'm interested in all this because I'm PA in to 55, hoping to be able to go on to 60, but Manning wouldn't offer it last year because I'm too young (45). Was hoping that 60 was the new 'lifer' age…

von K

[Uncle Ginsters]

Critical_Al, a familiar set of questions for many in the coming weeks.

Without clarity on pensions, FRI, PAS terms etc how can I possibly commit myself and my family to a contract that may be completely changed before I even start it?

Pensions: there's chat of the calculator being online in March
FRI: Nothing heard - doubtful if there's anything allied to this PA offer.
PAS Terms: I'm told they'll be sent out this week but don't expect to be spoon-fed any small-print.

[Backwards PLT]

Most of the replies so far seem to be looking at the 38/16 point (or 40 for some?), but my question is this:

If you are past 38/16 and have decided that you won't take your 44 option why wouldn't you accept PAS? As far as I can see:

1. Pay is better (top rate PAS > top rate SO2 + top rate FP).
2. Pension is better. I realise that the change in 2015 might not necessarily make this true (by any significant amount), but when a new scheme comes in I would rather be on 75k basic than 55k basic + 20k FP. You won't be worse off!
3. PAS no longer has any impact on career progression (manning promised, so it must be true).

Seems too good to be true so what am I missing?

[Biggus]

..that at age 94 you're too old?! :=

[Sandy Parts]

and don't forget, just because they offer PAS and you accept, doesn't stop the redundancy axe falling on you if needed in the future... (SDSR2015?) - make hay while the sun shines i.e. get a SIPP going and add enough to recoup the extra tax you'll be paying at 40% - I'm glad I did!!!

[chinook240]

Remind me how many PA Sqn Ldrs are looking at ground tours in the foreseeable future?

[Backwards PLT]

MM4, I think your view of PAS is out of date, certainly in the FJ world. The PAS guys are no longer the couple of battle scarred veterans sitting in the corner of the crewroom smelling of wee [although I am sure some of those characters are still out there]. PAS is now being used as a far broader manning lever to retain experience, primarily in ground tours.

New PAS officers have also not narrowed their career horizons - they get considered at every board on their merits, with their PAS status having absolutely no bearing on promotion. Of course if your OJAR says "well above average and happy to fly the Grob in a Sqn Ldr or Flt Lt role until he keels over" then you won't get promoted, but the PAS is irrelevant, it is what you do (and aspire to do) that matters.

This is a relatively recent change and not the way the FAA still do it so some on here may be out of date (out of touch? :}). Bottom line is the RAF needs to fill a lot of SO2 ground jobs and relatively few flying jobs. It also has plenty of Flt Lts to fill Flt Lt flying posts, so PAS these days is more likely to mean a desk for life. :(

[Lima Juliet]

Using PAS Sqn Ldrs in desk jobs is also "scandelous" IMHO - for every 9 top-rate PAS Sqn Ldrs in the same jobs, we could have 10 career/exec stream top-rate Sqn Ldrs on full flying pay. Basically it is about £7k difference between the two. Therefore, if we are sending lots of PAS guys to desk jobs we could be wasting 10% of our pay bill in some areas if they are 100% manned by PAS. :eek:

Once again, I don't begrudge the individual on a current PAS deal, but I don't think that it should continue for new entries when we have a chance to change it. It's too expensive, it's devisive and in my experience it does not encourage ambition in some (and I stress "some").

They would do well to go back to the old Specialist Aircrew path - it worked, there were plenty wanting to do it and I have no idea why they f^cked with it...

LJ

[Backwards PLT]

I think the problem is that noone wants to do the desk jobs. So many leave now at Flt Lt or after their flt cdr job as a Sqn Ldr that the desk jobs just can't be filled, so manning need some way to retain more people and PAS (and occasionally FRI) is the way it is done. I'm not sure how else you could do it.

[Qfeye]

LJ

Agreed. Pretty sure PAS Sqn Ldrs don't want to be doing desk jobs but the powers that be keep saying that PAS dosent allow you to remain flying, wish it did!

[Lima Juliet]

TLP

You may well be right, retention is the main issue. But when you're skint and have no money, then PAS and FRI is not the answer either! Also, for some, it wouldn't matter what you paid, they're off and that's that.

I know that if a Sqn Ldr doesn't pick up to Wg Cdr after a strong ground tour and Flt Cdr tour, then they are hard to retain. Also, the fact that your mate who is PAS and is earning up to £7k more doesn't help!

LJ

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Ground tours; albeit flying related ones; are part and parcel of PAS, that's hardly a shock.

If they're being pushed into completely non-flying related jobs then that's a bit of a waste. Which are you referring to?

Edit; to Chinook

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Regarding PAS pay, I looked at it recently, and it seems to me that the PAS Flt Lt who accepts assimilation at the same time as his chum gets promoted will be behind in terms of pay all through his career.

Sqn Ldr + ER FP is about £1k more than top rate Flt Lt PAS. If the pair are both senior Flt Lts on ER FP, then on promotion the Sqn Ldr will be £4k ahead and retain that advantage until he hits level 9 and the PAS guy catches up, but never pulls ahead.

At the upper end, a PAS Sqn Ldr can out-earn a level 9 Sqn Ldr on ER FP by about £4k, but under what circumstances do we have a similar-vintage PAS Flt Lt out-earning his career stream chum by £7k?

[Onceapilot]

What a Goat! IMO, the problem with flying pay and pension rights should be resolved so that all regular pay is pensionable. I see no problem with long term retention on a graduated pay scale beyond 40 years old, the worst thing would be to penalise anyone that the Air Force chose to employ in a ground post. Surely, the annual appraisal is a forum for quality control of all personel?

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

5f6b

I quoted for top-rate rather than enhanced-rate (it is quite clear in the post); it is about £7k difference. I agree, with enhanced rate it narrows further, but never closes the gap between both types of Sqn Ldrs. Also, the PAS Sqn Ldr ends up with about a 30% bigger pension on retirement.

You asked about Flt Lts, but you can't really compare, as Flt Lts don't assimilate past 16/38 or 18/40 so they wouldn't go to 55.

But I'm sure I'm explaining things that you already know...

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

MM4

I believe the next CAS did not "look down his nose" for a Sqn Ldr job in a Station based HQ and JHC! Have a look at his bio.

I agree that selection of jobs at SO1 level make a lot of difference, but at SO2 level, where it is a little less competitive, it isn't as critical. I'ts just that those with burning ambitions tend to gravitate to MB, PJHQ and PSO jobs - if they do a good job then they normally go at least 1-2 ranks up, if not, they stagnate with the rest of us at Wg Cdr max.

Anyway, back to Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr stuff...

LJ

[5 Forward 6 Back]

LJ,

Nope, not necessarily telling me stuff I know; I'm ploughing through the numbers as someone likely to have to make the choice at some point soon!

As far as I understand it, a level 9 Flt Lt on top rate FP will earn a shade under £59k, and a shade over £61k when he hits enhanced rate (which most who are expecting PAS offers this year or next will do before 38). At age 38, when he slides over to PAS, that means he'll enter the PAS pay scale at level 20; so his salary at age 38 is £61.3kpa.

A level 1 Sqn Ldr with top rate flying pay earns about £61.5k, and with enhanced rate about £64k. Even if he's promoted at 38, that means our career man's on £64k vs £61.3k for the PAS guy.

Level 9 Sqn Ldr plus enhanced rate FP is £73.3k. The Flt Lt PAS cap is level 30, which is £72.3k. I can't find any circumstances where the Flt Lt PAS chap manages to earn more than his mate who's promoted on the day he moves to PAS. He needs to get promoted too, but even then the very top PAS rate is only £4k per year more than level 9 Sqn Ldr plus ER FP.

Freely admit I may have missed something or may misunderstand the finer points about what happens when you transfer, but I can't see a situation until pension time where a career as a Flt Lt on PAS is more lucrative than promotion to Sqn Ldr?

Not trying to unnecessarily muddy the waters (I started looking at PAS salaries in earnest when I was 18 months from being boarded, especially when a senior PAS guy on my squadron claimed to be out-earning our Wg Cdr boss, which didn't make much sense to me...!), just hoping for some clarity before I join the droves making bad decisions....

[Lima Juliet]

5f6b

Your figures look about right. But your examples are only for those progressing to Sqn Ldr and PAS at the same time.

Let's look at the £7k example that I imagined (yes, I could have explained it better!). A level 35 PAS Sqn Ldr gets £77.6k pa and gets posted to a desk job (as in my example) and after a Flt Cdr tour and a ground tour a Level 6 "career" Sqn Ldr with top rate flying pay could have done the same job at £53.7k plus £13.7k (£67.4k total which is roughly £10k difference). He has done a great Flt Cdr job and a great 1st ground tour but has not been picked up. He gets enhanced rate that same year and raises his salary by a further £3k, but he is still getting £7k less than the PAS Sqn Ldr sitting at the desk opposite him and he will only ever close the gap to £4k if they both do the same job until 55. And when they are both in retirement, the PAS mate will be on Champagne and the "career" man will be on John Smiths, because the PAS man has a 30% bigger pension to p!ss up the wall.

I suspect you misheard your senior PAS guy, who, if a Sqn Ldr Pilot, will be getting a bigger pension than the Wg Cdr boss! :ok:

Sorry for the earlier confusing post, but using PAS Sqn Ldrs in ground tours is not value for money - that was the message I was trying to clumsily get accross.

LJ

PS - also for the "career" Sqn Ldr is the spectre of reserve banding flying pay after 3 years in a non-flying related job :eek: This does not apply to PAS as they do not get Flying Pay.

[VinRouge]

Worse than that now. Imagine losing all your flying pay if you get pushed into a double non flying pic desk tour. Unlikely I grant, but not impossible.
Chod away at pjhq making tea for the big boys? Sod off, you would have to be mad. Plenty of better paid work in defence contracting anyhow outside, so why bother trying to climb an increasingly greasy pole when you can work 9-5 for a decent company, company car and no bullsh8t?

[vascodegama]

Don't forget in these comparisons that those pilots who were PA before the level 30 bar was introduced have grandfather rights to reach level 35 so the senior mate may have had a point. Just watch out though because JPA needs manual adjustment to ensure that you pass level 30 when the time comes. It took a mate at BZN 3 months to get it sorted .

[Uncle Ginsters]

Before we all get lost in the financial minutiae, lets remember what those retained on PAS are really there for. Their experience and Above Average nature (this year may be different but all previous boards have required the same criteria as for promotion) make them an essential part of the supervisory chain of any current Sqn with limited experience elsewhere.

I recently witnessed a combination of Flt Cdr and SEngO willing to sign of a inexperienced crew to fly an ac with a fairly major fault. It was only the PAS guy who overheard this that stepped in and explained how and why what they were proposing may lead to the major damage to the ac or potentially worse and stopped the whole debacle.

In any other sensible world of employment, they don't get hung up on rank, purely on value to the company and cost to keep, a bit like our medical brethren. The cost to train from new is several million so, in perspective, it's a pittance to pay for an experienced and proven operator adding to our DH's assurances ( which is what life seems to have become all about). As has been said already, the days of the crusty old wee-smelling PA sat in the corner adding nothing are gone.

[BobbyT]

If there's no replacement FRI in Apr one of the big factors for me is that by taking PAS I'm effectively signing away the lump sum and pension until at least 43. By my rough figures, that's just over £600 per month pension after tax, also if I were to throw the lump sum at the mortgage i'd save approx £250 (maybe more) on the monthly payment. So if I stay past 38, I'm effectively working the first £850 of my monthly wage for free. Granted I need to get a job paying a similar wage in civvy street but IF the airlines start up again that's a possibility. Am I missing something here?

[von Klinkerz]

You haven't missed anything. The RAF needs pilots, so trapping someone for 5 years (for free) makes sense for Manning. Maybe a bit of a gamble for the individual though, but so is the airline market these days.

On the promotion v PA pay argument - can a Sqn Ldr really expect to maintain ER FP all the way to 55 (or 60) to remain ahead of the PA Flt Lt? And then the Sqn Ldr pension may well be less on the career average scheme if FP isn't pensionable. A 'guarantee' that you could swap to PAS if you didn't crack Wg Cdr might help. But then the Wg Cdrs would chunter on...

von K

[wokkamate]

Have I missed the point here, I though the PAS board was (delayed) sitting in March 2013? Hmmmm....

[VinRouge]

I reckon there is about to be a big sh£t sandwich announced. It's the only explanation why so many PA offers have been dished out early.

AlR, any suggestions as to what it could be?

[Ivan Rogov]

Well as it is a rumour network, let's have a go

#1 - RAF Tutor retired due to prop failure, no basic pilot training for 2-3 years until new contract/aircraft, therefore PAS needed to mind the gap?

don't tell me they are back flying? If so

#2 - UK to dispose of old atomic waste discretely over some pacific atoll, RAF pilots needed to fly through the fireball. VC-10 can do the role and take 100 pilots at a time, expected to save millions in pensions and scrapping the fleet?

#3 - RAF screws up manning levels by chopping too many newbie pilots? Now that is highly unlikely!

[BrakingStop]

I'm "above average" in my present role and all the roles I've had before - all 35 years of them.

Only 'Above Average' after 35 years of experience? Not really value for money then!

[MaroonMan4]

For those that cared, sorry for deleting some of my posts over the weekend. Too much wine and too little thought I am afraid.

But as someone with less than 10 years, so TACOS safe and no personal interest in this debate I just want to put my shaking head in my hands.

No wonder MoD is in such a paralous state, from a Business Model perspective if it were in the Private Sector it would be broke. As the Financial Times reported the drop in unemployment with a million jobs being added since 2010 has absolutely nothing to do with the state of economy, but reflects 'labour hoarding' where firms keep or recruit staff so as "to exploit opportunities when the recovery comes".

And here we are making people redundant and changing TACOS.

I regularly see many on Prune (normally ex Air Force in airline employment) talk about a maybe/maybe not recovery in the airline sector. Irrespective of the recently announced profits in Ryanair or EasyJet, the shop floor that I am working on is seeing many scope early employment outside of the airline sector as there appears no incentive to them to remain and are looking at all options. I also see significantly less experience (both in total hours and wider aviation experience beyond Iraq and Afghan).

I personally know of very few (if any?) Wg Cdrs that will be on less of a total remuneration package than someone on PAS.

If PAS goes or is reduced in such a degree not to attract our most gifted and experienced aircrew, then I look forward to seeing what the hierarchy will try and present as a viable alternative. Filling cockpit seats with enthusiastic and maliable new recruits is the easy bit. Making sure that the RAF flying environment is supervised, authorised; with correct training and standards will be the challenge if there is no incentive to keep our experienced aviation cadre.

Add the removal or significant reduction in PAS remuneration to all of the other changes and reductions in TACOS and it really will be a very simple choice to leave at an early age to truly get a second career and not attempt to scrabble around for suitable employment in your 50s waiting for your Service pension at 60 and a state pension at 67 plus.

Now either I really am missing something, or the current rumours of removing PAS will create an expensive RAF of the future (financially,but hopefully not in life).

[Aggro]

FRI is payable but only if your IPP was between 1 Apr 10 and 31 Mar 13. No indication of whether it will be kept beyond April. If you get the FRI, keep £3500 aside for the expected tax bill the following year! Should receive £46400 but with a £3500 additional tax liability the following year.

Hope that helps.

Lastly, let's post info and help, not abuse. It's just ugly and unnecessary.;)

[3 bladed beast]

Bobby T. Nope. You're missing nothing and I think your figures are spot on.

It's a con and it's causing a lot of anger. People with 2 to 2.5 years left are being offered flying tours BUT only if they sign on for PAS as they won't be able to do a full 3 years ROS.

Without an FRI, you effectively lose your pension for that period and the pay off lump sum!

For some, it's nothing short of blackmail.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Al,
Don't be swayed by the timing of the current 'pressure' - the same thing was said to some last year...Manning's bluff was called to no consequence:8

[bob9]

Aggro,

Can you explain a little more about the £3500? Do you get a one off bill or is it shared out over your pay over the year. Thanks

[3 bladed beast]

Has any seen the actual details of this 'offer'?

Are you able to PVR within the five years seeing as there is no financial retainer?

So, as a friend of mine is 2 years from leaving, yet is being told 'sign up for PA or you won't get A330'. Oh and by the way, there is a 6 month OOA with your name on it.

Manning have stopped short term extensions so this is tantamount to blackmail.

[Just This Once...]

5 year ROS from IPP. So for some offers of PAS this year it equates to over 7 years with no ability to PVR.

One hell of a commitment given the 2015+ changes.

:uhoh:

[3 bladed beast]

Ok, so next question!

If you sign up for PAS to get a posting that you would like, can you still leave at your original exit date? Or are you committed to 7 years once you sign up for PA....

[Just This Once...]

No, you loose the IPP - you are committed.

[Backwards PLT]

It's not blackmail , it's just an option. You don't have to take it, you can just do 2 years and leave, or you can commit, get more money in the long run and get a good tour.

Supply and demand. The real world, whatever you want to call it, it isn't unreasonable.

[3 bladed beast]

Backwards.

Whilst 'blackmail' might be a touch strong, when you are promised a tour by the deskie, do all that is asked of you, told that you will get a 6-12 month extension to cover a ROS but then it's flipped on you in an instance and you're told 'sign on for 5 years or your tour is cancelled and welcome to Afghan', that's pretty close.

I know leaving is the option, but there is somewhat of a sour taste right now.

[isaneng]

Bob9, our chap that got the unexpected £3500 bill was presented with a one off bill.

[The English Passenger]

The one off bill comes in approx 18 months after payment of the FRI. It is caused by the fact that once you earn over £100000 in a tax year you start to lose your tax free allowance, and it tapers down to a zero tax free allowance for those earning over £120000. Therefore, with an £80000 or £100000 FRI You will be over the £120000 limit and will receive a tax bill the following tax year for 40% of £8000 (your tax free allowance), with a retrospective tax code to reflect that. It caught me by surprise, but thankfully I had not spent the whole amount by then.

[Biggus]

...and the RAF never does anything "silly" does it...!!!

[m0nkfish]

Its not unreasonable....

You must be from manning.

Accepting a seven year contract without knowing what the terms and conditions of your service will be seems pretty unreasonable to me, unless you work for Ryanair. Please don't tell me we have got that bad?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Egdg,

Retaining some experienced navs on PAS seems very sensible to me. There's still a requirement for them until the GR4 OSD, and beyond that their specific skill set doesn't just disappear. Look at the many ex-Tornado navs performing very well on Reaper.

Plus, some of the dreaded desk jobs will require any aircrew, not specifically pilots, so there are plenty of routes to employ them and use their experience for many years.

[Willard Whyte]

Probably a few WSO(N)s required at Waddo for a few years yet too, not that there are many weapon or navigation skills required up there.

[BobbyT]

I'm no Mystic Meg but I'd say '5 Forward Six Back' is/was a......NAV! ;-)

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Mystic Meg's not got much to worry about from you Bobby, only ever 2 wings here! But we're all in it together, right? :ok:

[Uncle Ginsters]

3-Bladed Beast, Just This Once:
5 year ROS from IPP. So for some offers of PAS this year it equates to over 7 years with no ability to PVR.
One hell of a commitment given the 2015+ changes.


No it doesn't. JSP 754 allows for PVR within the 5-yr period:

"05.0623. RAF PAS OF2s who exit the Service prior to giving the requisite 5 years of service on the PAS will receive the standard SA representative pension based on rank without any supplements. RN and Army PAS/PES(A) OF2s who exit the Service prior to giving the requisite 5 years of service on the PAS/PES(A) will receive the standard CS representative rank based pension. PAS/PES(A) OF3s who exit the Service prior to giving the requisite 5 years of Service on the PAS/PES(A) will receive the standard CS representative rank based pension."

So, as I read it, you leave within 5 years and you revert to your original TOS, pension etc but, importantly, you can leave if everything goes to a crock of sh:(te post-2015.

When you sign for PAS, you sign in acceptance of the terms laid down in JSP754 so they'd do well to argue against it, though I'm no lawyer!

[Jambo Jet]

So, as I read it, you leave within 5 years and you revert to your original TOS, pension etc but, importantly, you can leave if everything goes to a crock of shte post-2015.


UG

I think you will find you have quoted the rules for how to treat someone who leaves PA, but without doing 5 years on PATOS; like I did in the past.

New PATOS are being offered (to every pilot beyond 3 years to IPP, so it would seem), but with a ROS requirement of 5 years from the start of your new TOS, which is a different arguement.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Agreed, Jambo. But I'm quoting the current JSP which is what we're agreeing (or not) to...my point is, the JSP gives the means to PVR so can manning overrule that?

The question was asked last year and, IIRC, the answer was I per the book that you can PVR, although we should probably get that in writing again!

[Just This Once...]

Uncle,

I am very certain of my facts, as are Manning. The JSP remains extant and if you manage to leave before the 5 year point (say via admin discharge) then the rules prescribed still apply.

However, to be accepted on to PAS (RAF) you have to sign a ROS that effectively surrenders your 'PVR rights' as has been described in this thread. This is the relatively new bit that sits between the JSP and your acceptance (or otherwise) of PATOS.

Back in the day once an offer was given it could not be withdrawn and if you had the offer at 'first look' you had a period of years to make your final choice. You now have to accept or decline within a couple of months (although Manning have applied a little flexibility with this last bit for some special cases).

[Just This Once...]

New PATOS are being offered (to every pilot beyond 3 years to IPP, so it would seem), but with a ROS requirement of 5 years from the start of your new TOS, which is a different arguement.

Hi Jambo, long time no hear.

The additional kicker is that on acceptance of the offer you loose the IPP (eg 38/16) instantly. One of my guys is now swapping emails with Manning to discuss what would happen if he PVR'd post his acceptance but before his 38/16 point and formally starting on PATOS (which in his case is 2.5 years away).

[Uncle Ginsters]

JTO,
I'll take your word for it as the offer wasn't out when I left work on Friday, I haven't seen the text this year, only going by last year's offer which still quoted the 5yr RoS but, I believe, when pressed they said the PVR could be upheld...as I said, we need that clarifying in writing.

[MaroonMan4]

So when is the detail of the NEM and FAFPS going to be announced, then the hypothetical plans and concerns can be converted into real ones?

SDSR 10 unsettled Service Personnel and their families, followed by a steady drip of redundancies, followed by impending NEM and FAFPS for last year and this one, with SDSR 15 to look forward to around the same time as a General Election.

All while being on enduring operations, and pulling rabbits out of hats with Olympics, strikes and contingencies like Libya and Mali.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Regarding the NEM, someone (apologies, I forget who) posted here recently pointing out that the NEM isn't a single event that will irrevocably change everything. We won't go from the status quo to NEM on the stroke of midnight on one day. Rather, the NEM is a range of measures, incorporating Projects ZEUS, APOLLO and SIRIUS (I think), and then looking towards changes in things like accommodation policy etc etc.

So it's already here with the apparent introduction of main and executive stream roles for senior officers, and other changes to career "management."

As for FAPS, I thought the detail out there was pretty accessible. There are some questions to do with exactly how it integrates with your AFPS75/05 preserved rights for those of us with potentially 20+ years to serve, but in terms of working out how much of a pension I'll actually get I think it's all there in the DINs. Guys receiving PAS offers now are likely to be one of the few groups who could benefit from AFPS15 if I've done my maths right.

[Uncle Ginsters]

5F6B,
The major thing for me is how and when that pension is awarded - if, as suspected, at 55 you only get your AFPS75/05 portion then wait til 60 for the additional AFPS15 portion, then we have an issue.

There will be a scheme to cover the gap, but as yet the detail for that is unseen (please speak up if ive missed it somewhere). That's the detail I'm waiting for to see if I need to get a paper-round aged 55...

[VinRouge]

Tescos should be recruiting. Can't imagine doing the deed bag drag past 55 to be honest.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Do FTRS retire at 55? Maybe they'll look at some sort of active reserves thing to plug the gap. I worked with an AvO once who flew until his 60s.

[Hueymeister]

I've stared at the rather confusing FAFPS DIN until my eyes bled, yet I'm still not 100% certain on what my pension will look like post 2015. I'll have 7 yrs PAS on AFPS75 and then a further 10, possibly more on AFPS15. Where can I work it out?

[High_Expect]

You can't - that's the point. Does anyone know anybody who is going to take them up on this? 4/4 declined on this Sqn.

[BobbyT]

Anyone got an e-mail yet? Any news?

[VinRouge]

High Expect,

Out of interest, is that ME, FJ or RW (or 22 Gp?)

[iRaven]

Do FTRS retire at 55?

They can retire whenever they like, but to get an immediate pension under the Reserve Forces Pension Scheme they need to serve to age 60 or above...up to 65 for some posts if they like. :eek:

[3 bladed beast]

I believe Manning has dropped the ball here. They are currently telling guys with 2 to 3 years left that they are useless to them if they do not extend with the PA offer.

Guys with lots of experience are going to be lost on this one - and even if manning come back with something more positive, this 'bluff' of theirs will leave alot of bitterness.

Once again, the RAF fail to think of it's people, despite demanding so much from them for the last 10 years +.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

3BB, what's happening to these guys; are they being threatened with some highly unpleasant last tour if they don't sign up to PAS?

Only spoken in detail to one guy at work who's been offered it, and while it comes with a 5 year ROS, I'm not sure what he's been told will likely happen if he doesn't accept.

[Uncle Ginsters]

5F6B,

I suppose it's an extension of the "if they all take it we can't afford it" argument; in expanding the bracket this year, there are some in the group offered without Qs or imminent promotion prospects.

What would happen if a majority accepted? Could the wider Manning plot then cope with a mass of PAS on the sqns? Admitedly, this is highly unlikely to be a factor with the current offer but I suspect that Manning are being very careful in making promises.

Either way, it's not exactly a savoury offer to those in that predicament.

Also, isn't there a QR about getting preference of last tour (ops-permitting)?

[von Klinkerz]

If you guys aren't offered PAS to age 60, then you aren't even being offered the chance to work to the bitter end and get a full pension (on AFPS 15). Can you imagine if that happened to teachers, nurses etc - the press would have a field day?

[3 bladed beast]

5f6b...

It's not quite life or death, but the guys I know feel very let down. 2 guys will have 2 years remaining when coming off their current tour and AC type; they had been promised 1 year extensions to cover a ROS, but now told that doesn't apply even though they had done all that was asked.

They have been told to expect a ground tour for their remaining years;even though they are highly experienced and (were) keen guys.

They of course have the option not to take it- just a sad way to end a career....

[Tiger_mate]

Also, isn't there a QR about getting preference of last tour (ops-permitting)?

.....will an overused Manning get-out clause. I am told that FTD (Final tour of duty) days are well and truly over as it is already unsustainable due to diminished numbers of staff eroding Manning flexibility. I suspect that any documentation in support of FTD entitlement will be descretely deleted in the coming years.

[high spirits]

Ginsters,
Surely if 'they all take it we can't afford it' notion is outweighed by the savings in having to recruit and train new aircrew. By increasing ratio of PAS you actually save as the increase in salary and pension of a PAS transferee doesn't equate to the x million it costs to train a newbie. It makes sense to me. A slightly ageing population of aircrew with a greater depth of experience.

[MechGov]

I wonder if the pilot of the future, post 2015, might be recruited for a shorter, non pensionable engagement. The money to train might be considerably less than the often quoted multi millions and easier to justify than paying pension for many years.
As for the PAS offer, I know of only one person who is ready to sign up.

[FFP]

We must know the same person as I too only know of 1 person who'll take it now.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Are we all on the same squadron?? :}

[Just This Once...]

Not until Future Force 2020!

[3 bladed beast]

Anyone who signs on is mental ( technical term)

I'm convinced this is a bluff and come April/May there will be an FRI as manning know they are going to be short of pilots very soon!

Of course, only my opinion......

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Well, it's in the thread title, so shall we start some FRI rumours? What are we short of, or what's in manning balance....?

Overworked drone pilots....? I hear the Typhoon force is attracting a high number of PVRs.... and are we short of QFIs yet?

[Uncle Ginsters]

3BB,

Manning may well know that they forecast a shortage but it seems that convincing the Treasury is another thing entirely without evidence of a shortage (and apparently there isn't one at the moment).
From my chats with Manning, I think anyone holding out for an FRI may well find themselves running out of time...

High Spirits,

I don't think it does weigh true - it is widely acknowledged that you need to continue recruitment to maintain continuity in the workforce. This is about maintaining the experienced end of that line. I think we all wish it was a direct equation of "leave at 38/16...MoD pays £Xmillion to replace you" as that would work quite nicely for all of us right now. If only...

[Min Decent Ht]

Hi all,
my offer of PAS includes the clause:
5 year Return of Service obligation during which you will not be allowed to apply for Early Termination.
So does that mean 5 years before I can apply for PVR, submit application, then 12 months to leave the service= 6 years minimum, in flying related staff (shxt) jobs!? And from the Pension Calculator (pre 2015) I only get 3k more pension, even if I stay in until 55.

Hmmmm, waive leaving rights, do shxtty jobs that no one else wants, miss the chance to go to the airlines, and all for a small increase in dosh. No wonder there are hardly any takers. I am hoping to be corrected tho. Anyone?

[high spirits]

MDH,
Much of what you say is true but consider:
No, or very few airline jobs
Terms and conditions eroded on these airline jobs
Expense of licence versus risk of not getting said job
Pay rise of PAS has to come with some return to Manning, otherwise what's the point?
Do you go for the short term FRI or the longer term pension, and like it or not, it's still up with the best pensions.

Bl@@dy hell, I'm off to have a word with myself for speaking up for the Firm.

Just playing devils advocate....

[Just This Once...]

That PAS offer wording does seem suspect and I would challenge the 'apply for' bit. Previous to your post I have seen nothing that suggests you cannot apply for ET, just that you will not get it until the RoS is complete. As you say, the new wording could add a year or more to the PAS handcuffs but my guess is that is an error that needs to be removed.

[Tiger_mate]

If you have accepted PAS and then initiate the 7 keys to freedom, you will see written in red the date to which you are obliged to serve along with a warning that to depart early is likely to have financial implications.

You can PVR and complete the requested departure date as the day after your obligated RoS concludes.

The danger lies in the the ability of Manning to accept your PVR with immediate effect. Ie, before your RoS exit date. This would be underhand of them but I have heard of one such example with a ground tradesman approaching pension point. Bottom line, negotiate with your DO and retain any emails. Telephone calls fail to exist the moment the handset is replaced. Back up any telephone chats with a covering email. It should not be an issue to leave on time, but a change of deskie or a hacked off deskie, has the ammunition to make it an issue.

[von Klinkerz]

I see Easyjet are advertising for military non-type rated FO's in preparation for summer 2014. 1000hrs and frozen ATPL. Might not be a great deal, but it's an opening on the outside. More to follow?

[VinRouge]

Any link to verify this? Will they be able to give fixed hub?

[von Klinkerz]

Found it after googling 'easyjet careers pilot'. Don't know why, but I did.

A bit "sketchy" on detail.

[Prop-Ed]

Here you go.

Pilot Careers - Careers in the Air - easyJet Careers (http://careers.easyjet.com/careers-in-the-air/pilot-careers/)

[Ken Scott]

Prepared to self-sponsor type rating

Seems you would have to 'front-up' some of your gratuity for the TR.

[VinRouge]

Seems to me they have an open advert tomorrow in the telegraph...


EasyJet to create more jobs for military pilots - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9955661/EasyJet-to-create-more-jobs-for-military-pilots.html)

About 200 jobs will be added in 2014 following recent news of 330 permanent positions for pilots this year.
The new posts will be offered across all 11 of easyJet's UK bases - Gatwick, Southend, Luton, Stansted, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol and Belfast - and across easyJet's European sites.
EasyJet's head of flight operations, Captain Brian Tyrrell, said: "I'm really pleased to be launching this recruitment drive for 200 new pilots. We are actively seeking pilots from the military services and we know from the ex-forces pilots who already fly with us that their skills and experience will be an asset to the airline.
"No other British airline is recruiting on this scale. It is a great time to join easyJet - our pilots fly one of the youngest fleets in world aviation, receive high quality training and fast career progression at an airline which has gone from strength to strength in recent years."
There are currently more than 2,300 pilots flying for easyJet.

One off or are the wheels starting to turn again?

[Hueymeister]

Ken- or would it be a drip feed bond paid back over 3 yrs?

[StopStart]

More than likely the latter.

Belay that. Upfront apparently. As was the case last time round. Put that gratuity to good use :bored:

[Could be the last?]

Has there been any offers of PAS this year?

[Just This Once...]

Yes, quite a few in my place - all turned down.

Interesting that they sent offers to those that turned it down last year; again, swiftly rejected.

[FFP]

"Last year the pension calculator wasn't fully functional and there was some uncertainty over the NEM, so we expect this year there will be a much larger uptake"

Oh dear.......:rolleyes:

[Rotate]

This is a rumour site after all...

"We targeted a larger number last year and, although fewer took the offer than anticipated due to the revised pension and the NEM, we got the numbers we wanted"

I guess if you only wanted a handful and include those who had already signed on for other reasons then well done! :D

Might even make double figures this year if the net is cast wider! :E I bet those offered feel valued knowing they are among the elite/bracket!* delete as applicable.

[Bob Viking]

JTO.
To be fair to manning, when you are offered PAS you will continue to be eligible at every board until you leave the RAF.
I am currently sat on another offer. I turned it down last year but need a long chat with my deskie again this year to help the decision making process.
BV