EasyJet to create 330 pilot jobs

[1stspotter]

Airline easyJet is to create 330 new jobs for pilots this year across all of its 11 UK bases.

The new posts will be in Gatwick, Southend, Luton, Stansted, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol and Belfast.

Captain Brian Tyrrell, easyJet's head of flight operations, said: "We offer a clear career path for pilots with the potential to move from first officer to captain more quickly than at other airlines."

Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the pilots' union Balpa, said: "EasyJet has been dragged kicking and screaming by Balpa into offering a permanent contract to some of its growing casual pilot workforce.

"Despite the spin in today's easyJet announcement, this "take-it-or-leave-it" contract is being denounced by pilots across easyJet."

Source:
EasyJet to create 330 pilot jobs - National News, Breaking News - Herald.ie (http://www.herald.ie/breaking-news/national-news/easyjet-to-create-330-pilot-jobs-3374034.html)

Luchtvaartnieuws.nl, a dutch website on aviation has some more detailled info here
Article - Luchtvaartnieuws (http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL/Article.cms/Airlines/EasyJet_neemt_330_nieuwe_piloten_aan)

To me it looks like Easyjet is copying the Ryanair model in which pilots are hired from one or two companies.

google translate:
For budget airline EasyJet has this year for 330 new pilots in the United Kingdom. The need for new pilots is the result of a new career structure for the company, as did easyJet Friday. These are permanent positions for new cadet and first officer positions on the eleven British easyJet bases.

The influx of newcomers means that existing first officers can move to the position of captain in the British airline.

EasyJet prefers pilots coming from training partners CTC and Parc and who have experience as a pilot with easyJet. After two years and more than 1250 flight hours they can earn a permanent contract with easyJet. The starting salary for cadets is £ 40,000, while first officers earn at least £ 54,000. The income of captains is between 114,000 and 146,000 pounds.

EasyJet makes for hiring pilots for several years using the services of CTC and Parc, and it was some time ago that the society itself directly hired pilots. The company has about 2,300 pilots, of whom it yourself 1850 under contract and 450 are under contract with CTC and Parc. The airline only flies with Airbus A319s and A320s.

The new fixed first officer positions will be offered on all eleven of easyJet bases in the United Kingdom: the 'London' airports Gatwick, Southend, Luton and Stansted, Glasgow and Edinburgh in Scotland, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool and Bristol in England, and Belfast in Northern Ireland.

[favete linguis]

Official statement is here:

Latest news - easyJet plc (http://corporate.easyjet.com/media/latest-news/news-year-2013/01-02-2013a-en.aspx?sc_lang=en)

Its clever wording - the 330 will be recruited from the current 450 parc/ctc pilots who...

Once they have flown for over 1250 hours with easyJet and completed two years, pilots then join easyJet as permanent employees at First Officer rank.

Unless I'm mistaken this is not really recruitment, merely offering a proper job to those that are on poor contracts. Although it is a positive move.

[Binder]

Maybe Ecam,

But I would take a 'deep dive' and suggest that contracts offered will not be the same that Balpa are presently trying to protect.

How many of the 330 jobs will be offered to experienced Flybe guys/girls facing uncertain futures? Answer: None.

This is H89 hot air and frankly disgusting for a Company knocking on the FTSE 100 door.

[stakeknife]

Spot on binder! My bet is your 'deep dive' is correct!!

[cldrvr]

Unless I'm mistaken this is not really recruitment, merely offering a proper
job to those that are on poor contracts.


Only to be replaced by hundreds of others willing to pay to fly. The good days of T&Cs are long gone and as long as new guys are willing to fly for peanuts, those days will never return.

easyJet only pays what it needs to, same with FR. The new guys don't realise they are ruining it for themselves, and the older guys are just too willing to accept cadets/P2F.

This cancer is slowly creeping into our side of the industry also, however there are plenty of us still left who will just not tolerate it.

[99jolegg]

EASYJET PILOTS DENOUNCE NEW CONTRACT

01/02/2013

Jim McAuslan, BALPA General Secretary, commenting on easyJet’s announcement today about a new contract for some pilots said: ‘easyJet has been dragged kicking and screaming by BALPA into offering a permanent contract to some of its growing casual pilot workforce. But, despite the spin in today’s easyJet announcement, this “take-it-or-leave-it” contract is being denounced by pilots across easyJet.

‘BALPA has been inundated with concerned young pilots, desperate for a job and experience, who will still have to put up with two years on a zero hours contract and uncertain lifestyle. And, because of their £100k loan repayments, these pilots will take home less than a McDonalds employee.

‘And this from a company that is knocking on the door of the FTSE 100 and is hugely successful with a management team rewarded as such.

‘Pilots – and we believe the travelling public – still want to know if a pilot is good enough to fly for easyJet, why is that pilot not good enough to be on a permanent and reasonable contract?’

Jim McAuslan concluded, ‘The most interesting reaction to easyjet’s announcement isn’t the concern of the young pilots, but the anger of the longer serving and experienced pilots who are outraged at the treatment of their new colleagues. Little surprise that the vast majority of them are proud to be a pilot, but few would now recommend it as career under easyJet conditions. BALPA’s campaign for a decent contract for all easyJet pilots – one which does not exploit the enthusiasm and desperation of young cadets – will continue both publically and industrially.’

[Serenity]

So correct me if I'm wrong but..

This isn't recruitment of 300 new pilots, but merely the conversion of contracts to permanent.

Bit of another pr stunt.
Maybe stop a few more running off to Monarch and the likes.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Correct, it is NOT 330 new jobs, but merely offering a substancially worse contract than the already existing contract to the CTC/PARC guys already flying for us. All this in the name of "remaining competitive" while we break the profit record year after year.

[Contact Approach]

This may be controversial, but I believe it's not too bad of a thing: it's created 330 new jobs, flexibility in an ever changing market and the good opportunities to advance within the company - well paid - in the future.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

How is this creating new jobs? it's just a rehash of already existing jobs previously filled by contractors? The whole point is that the terms of employment are significantly worse than the already existing contract that existed before WB swooped in.

[puma230]

Contact Approach you are so wrong! This is the forced implementation of a B scale which will save the company millions. Ezy made £60m more than expected last year and its share price has trebled. This is the boards attempt to turn Ezy into Ryanair make no mistake. Ezy pilots want new entrants on permenant contracts but on the existing scale, which to be frank aren't exactly amazing. This is not a good deal in any way shape or form. Whenever the CEO gets her video camera out to tell you how wonderful it is you know it's crap. This is the race to the bottom and our profession is on its knees!

[socrates]

So, after 4 years working for easyjet they reach a salary on par with other airlines starting salary, ie, circa £60k.

Assuming '330 jobs' then for ease of calculation:

330 x £20k = £6.6M
£6.6M x 4 =£26.4M

Not bad from a corporate position and, assuming that much is saved, guaranteed bonuses for those introducing it and bitter feelings for those standing aside and allowing this to happen.

Big question is, whats next? :ugh:

[Yorkshire-Pud]

Socrates,

Maybe 'Pilot Apprentices' are the next big thing.....

Pilot Apprentice (B737) UK-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/2257.html)

Admittedly, many have made this route work in the past - myself included but I don't remember the 'bonded type rating' been part of the deal

[Wirbelsturm]

Yorkshire Pud,

Interesting link!!!!

I found this bit interesting, apart from your previously pointed out 'bonding':

Successful candidates will hold a UK Frozen ATPL and Medical as well as JOC, MCC and driving licence. You will have excellent verbal and written communication skills and experience of office IT systems. In addition we require you to be flexible as we may require you to be based from any of our UK bases.


So Jet2 want you to be instantly employable as a pilot but put you through 18 months as teaboy/general dogsbody prior to condecending to allowing you near a type rating!!!

I wonder if they will keep your licences ticking over in the intervening 18 months.

This isn't an apprenticeship this is pure exploitation of already qualified professional pilots.

I would not recommend this industry to my children. :mad:

[R T Jones]

The total reward package includes flexible rosters, basic pay, on target bonus and sector pay and other allowances plus employment benefits such as pension. All these ranges are based on pilots working full time. There will also be part time (at 75%) and fixed rosters (paid at 90%) contracts available


Does it mention that all contracts will be 75%? With the opportunity to move to 90% or 100% based on schedule, base and business demand? No I don't think it does but that is the reality.
It also doesn't mention these contracts are being sent out with a specific time frame to return them, with no guarantee they will be offered again if you turn them down.

Tell me, why would easy who have spent 20 months working with Balpa on a solution to this be in such a hurry to sweep this under the carpet? The impending entry to the ftse100, the media and industrial campaign that is starting? Ill leave you to make up your own mind.
Alistair Campbell would be proud.

[Love_joy]

This is definitely a positive step in the right direction, though their marketing spin is maybe a step from reality.

Everything in life is based on supply and demand, and right now, we are over supplying our industry with pilots and the jobs simply do not exist. Whilst this continues to be the case, unscrupulous employers can continue to treat us all like mugs.

[FRying]

What are you EZ boys and girls waiting to ground EZ airplanes once and for all for 3 days, a week, 3 weeks ??? Working in office jobs IN ADDITION TO your current crazy rosters ? Have your homes taken away because of a sudden requirement to achieve some obscure yield ? Having to pay part of your passengers tickets from your own pockets ? Your daughters in the red light quarter to finance your meager salaries ?????

What is the use of BALPA ? What sorts of excuses will this "union" come up with in order not to act ?

How can someone who cannot take control of his fate make the decision to go around when all goes pear shape ? How can you give the control of fast jets, within which strong decision making hence strong personality is key to safety, to people who cannot even decide to act for their own long term good ??

I know there's a great chance that my post will be erased but what the hell... This situation is turning into a farce. Year after year. "What kind of extra excuse can I find not to strike ? Hey, I'm still making more than the employee at Mc Donald's down the street. I still have more of a life than that poor bugger.".

Turkeys. And weak ones.

[FRying]

Everything in life is based on supply and demand, and right now, we are over supplying our industry with pilots and the jobs simply do not exist. Whilst this continues to be the case, unscrupulous employers can continue to treat us all like mugs.

False. Many more factors are to be incorporated. Ground airplanes a week or two and you'll see things will be much different. Refer to post above.

[Wirbelsturm]

This is definitely a positive step in the right direction

Why?

Why is this a 'step in the right direction'?

They are asking for fully qualified pilots to take part in an 'apprentice scheme' and this is 'step in the right direction'?

These are qualified pilots, able to take up position as co-pilots in a commercial operation, not muppets in a scheme which pushes them from pillar to post in a company that then, after 18 months, wants to employ then for what they are employable for. And you believe this is a step in the right direction?

So is it with the decline of our industry.

BALPA, sort this mess out, if you can't then the paying public need to be more aware of just who it is that is flying them through the air at 650mph and throwing them at the ground at 175mph when they complain that taxi's drive too fast!!!! :ugh:

[Alexander de Meerkat]

This is a total illusion. These are not new jobs - just flexicrew being paid less on permanent contracts than they were on temporary ones. It is an utter fabrication.

[australiancalou]

The flight instructors working for CTC or other cadet factories and the checkers giving the final exam are at the origine of the whole aviation downgrade.
The flight instructors accepting to fly everyday as single pilots with a low timer on commercial jets are also responsible of the crap.
The only way to solve this downturn is to work on FIs responsabilities and to ask TRIs and TREs to stop training and checking any P2F pilots untill the situation has been clear up...
Man told me some of them come from majors and shoot the entire system for their own benefits.
Stop crying like babies and act like men killing the illness at the root.

A TRE fed up with all this mascarade.:yuk:

[fepilot]

More than 300 new pilot roles for easyJet | Meridian - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2013-02-01/more-than-300-new-pilot-roles-for-easyjet/)

[veetwo]

Tennisten

Did you read the thread?!

These 330 people are already flying for easyjet as contractors through agencies. They are just being offered permanent contracts, and pretty bad ones too. We are not talking about creating new work here... just shifting it around on paper.

[jeehaa]

nope......

and reading your last reply here, you still don't seem to get the point:

no NEW jobs, just ppl being moved from agency contract to permanent contracts. Aside from the couple of MPL schemes that are running now, no new cadet entries.

[1pudding1]

'330 jobs to be had' - no there isn't.

'8 to 10 cadets at a time' - define time? They've been joining EZY for the last few years, so those 8-10 for months and months has more than ensured those 'jobs to be had', are had already.

So no chance of any scheme being run by EZY, scam perhaps, but no scheme.

[veetwo]

tenniston-

There still seems to be some confusion, which is confusing because this is very simple. Just stop for a second and read what is being written.

This announcement will not directly result in any new work for cadets at easyjet, full stop, the end. It means that 300 ish first officers who are already first officers at easyJet will get a permanent contract. What it does not mean is that any new cadets will either start courses or type ratings from the holding pool. Therefore this is not good news. In fact, it is bad news given what the contracts say.

[Marvo]

Tennisten,

There is already a cadet scheme run by CTC and also Oxford is running an MPL cadet scheme. These "new" jobs are for the contract first officers that have been employed indirectly by easyJet for some time already - A B scale contract if you will. Its shameful and disgraceful that the management see fit to introduce such a poor contract when the company are making massive profits!

The only positive is that these new first officers can now be represented by the union.

[favete linguis]

And most of them will sign the contract because its offering some form of security.

easyJet are taking advantage of the poor economic situation to rape and take advantage of these people, who it could be argued should have known better, but thats a different matter completely, by offering them a permanent position with some benefits which compared to the contracts they're on currently is actually worse.

But ultimately it is a 'job' as opposed to contracting and they will have more employee 'rights'. The industry is not going to improve for the foreseeable future.

[BlackandBrown]

Out of interest what added security is it REALLY adding?

Against redundancy?

https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-redundancy-pay

You'd need to have been employed for a minimum of 2 years to receive anything.

I gave it a run - aged 24, with 3 years service on this contract your statutory payment would be £1075. And you'll only get it if you've been there at least 2 years. Where's the real added security? Guaranteed money per month? Profit is the reward for risk - there is more risk on Flexi and so it pays better than this contract will - you'll earn more on flexi I assure you. Pension? £100000 in a UK pension pot returns an annuity of at best £6K a year - how many £100000s are you going to save on this contract?

The only way to get more security is to leave broken Britain.

Hold out for a better contract.

[sdryh]

Back in the old days airlines would recruit a mixture of experience and new cadets, now it just seems that they only hire new cadets with little hours and the money to pay for a type rating. I agree that all the existing pilots who bought their type ratings should be given a contract, it is only fair, but it would be nice if they opened up recruitment to more experienced crew. I am an example of many, 4000hrs plus with a main airline and now would be a great time to step up to an airbus, but alas, experience means nothing.

Regards

[HundredPercentPlease]

B&B,

Simple. Security of income - when the threat from the management is that if you remain as pay-per-hour your hours may well reduce.

Nothing to do with redundancy, as you have discovered you're knackered either way.

[FRying]

Favete linguis : The industry is not going to improve for the foreseeable future.

Favete, do you think "the industry" will change in the way weather changes, through some external reasons out of our control, such as god's will or the color of leaves in the trees or the height at which swallows are flying today ???

The industry WILL change if pilots act for it to change. Management is not going to turn around some day and say "oh, we've gone too far. Let's be nice and switch back to 2004 T&Cs". No, that will not happen.

Get back to reality. Unless you act, you will get poorer and poorer, increasingly knackered and your management will enjoy fatter and fatter bonuses.

[greywind]

B&B - also security with your base. Whilst it's never likely to be 100% secure you can be sure you won't be shifted round every few months like Easy can do with their flexi staff.

[Foniac]

Or to add to your post Greywind have your contract terminated and then shunted on to the worst contract in the network that you'd already declined....

[ManUtd1999]

Has anyone got any numbers to add to the discussion - basic salary? I know it's probably horrendous pay but from my point of view I'd sooner be on a a lower guaranteed income than the flexicrew lottery. In that respect it's a good move by Easyjet. If they extended it to all FOs from the date they joined and stopped charging for type ratings they might have something close to resembling a decent employer.

[Binder]

ManU

And so it will continue; And future Captains will be earning what f/o's are earning today.

Is this a good move for you?

[HundredPercentPlease]

ManUtd1999

2 years mandatory flexicrew.
2 years on £33k + £5k variable (core FO scale).
For evermore on £41k + £5k variable (core SFO scale).

You still have to pay for everything, at inflated prices. So most have a training debt of £1,200 per month. This will leave you with an income of £1,200 per month on the FO scale and £1,500 per month as a SFO.

A 21 year old McDondalds worker (in the kitchen) on a 40 hour week will take home around £1,150.

If you think this in any way resembles a good deal then you are deluded.

[ManUtd1999]

Calm down guys - I've never claimed it was a good deal, just better then flexicrew. As standalone salaries (ie, assume you have no debt), they are reasonable and competitive with a lot of airlines. As you point out, the problem comes when you have the huge debts that you must acquire to get your fATPL and type rating. It's the training costs and flexicrew that really need to be changed/abolished, not the salaries.

[HundredPercentPlease]

No, ManUtd1999, you are quite wrong.

The new salaries/jobs are £5k to £10k less that what the flexicrew earn. Hence the uproar.

They are not reasonable, and are only competitive with Wizzair. Which is fine, until you compare the cost of living in the UK (esp London) vs Poland.

[ManUtd1999]

It's a matter of opinion, but I believe that 33k rising to 41k + variable pay is a perfectly good wage for any FO. It's roughly the same as a junior doctor or new ATC will get and is a liveable wage, if you don't have £1000+/month loan repayments. That's the key issue, paying upfront for flight/line training and the whole flexicrew system needs to change.

[greywind]

Unless things have changed recently ATC used to be about £50K starting once you'd finished your on the job training bit.

[Thad Jarvis]

You're missing the point Utd. They have to spend AT LEAST 24 months on a zero hours contract first. No fly-no money. In winter than can literally mean no money and in the shadows lurks £100k of debt.

[Robert G Mugabe]

As despicable as this offer is with regard to the zero hours aspect of this contract . I have some sympathy with ManUTD1999's view. After all I have a mortgage. My debts are my problem and should not be considered when it comes to pay negotiation.

If these people took out debt to train that's the risk they took. Cut your cloth fellows. Save up for the lean winter months.

The thing I want to see is easyjet pilots in easyjet planes.

[kick the tires]

They have to spend AT LEAST 24 months on a zero hours contract first. No fly-no money.

All that I fly with are happy enough and gross 35K on average. Its those that take out big car loans and live over their means that create such bad press.

Age 22 and earning 35K aint bad. The reality is 35K, not a 'zero hours contract'.
If people are better at budgeting and save some summer pay for the lean winter months all would be well.

Before I am shot down, I DO NOT AGREE with the way easy are doing this, but I am putting some much needed perspective on it.

[Thad Jarvis]

But they're not all doing that are they. That's the problem. New entrants this year, new commands next year, existing commands beyond that. The slide to the bottom is well underway.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

There are indeed a significant number of our FOs driving cars that I could never dream of. I suspect that is a combination of rich parents, living at home and a willingness to take on debt that I would never countenance. At the end of the day, disposable income has to be just that and what people do with their money is their own problem. Also, the level of indebtedness they were willing to undertake to become a pilot is also their own personal problem. No one with a brain in their head could have gone into this without an idea of the massive risks involved financially. Also, no one is on a zero hours contract, however bad the situation is. Nonetheless, it is a B Scale and that must be fought or there will be a C and D scale to follow.

[Guy of Gisborne]

This can all be resolved by incorporating the same 1500 hr minimum for airline pilots that the US are about to take on. No more CTC etc, airlines recruiting the DE and ex mil pilots out of work due to "trapped by loan" cadets willing to work for brass buttons, T&Cs improved as airlines now fight for the best of those few with enough hours and, type ratings provided by the operator.
No more buying your way into the flight deck, getting there purely through hard work and gaining the airmanship required along the way.
I was always taught that learning from your mistakes is good but learning from someone else's is better. Come on CAA sort this s**t out!

[IAEdude]

Guys and gals

people is missing one massive point. Not all of the flexicrews are 22 years old cadets!!

There are guys circa 30-40 y/o, and as much as 7000-8000 TT. Just imagine how they (we) feel having our face slapped by this "offer".

Disgusting. Just disgusting :{

[Tiennetti]

Nonetheless, it is a B Scale and that must be fought or there will be a C and D scale to follow.

Beside the "child's car" discussion, this is the point of everything
We have already seen how things have gone that direction with the LIS contract... yes, it is "acceptable" to be on lower wages at the beginning of your career and that is now "not hurting you", well estabilished Captain in your own base, but no-one knows what can be the next offer, or to whom it will be directed.

First they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.


-- Pastor Martin Neimoller

[ManUtd1999]

In that respect the loco's are very clever, they keep their captains well paid and in return very little trouble is caused as they destroy new FO T &Cs. No matter how many times you say it, you won't stop cadets risking their own and their parents money in pursuit of 'the dream'. If captains had taken a stand a few years back and refused to fly with any flexicrew pilot, we might not be in this situation now.

That said, I don't know much about the situation at Easyjet and it may be that people higher up the food-chain are indeed doing more than it seems from the outside.

[wiggy]

If captains had taken a stand a few years back and refused to fly with any flexicrew pilot, we might not be in this situation now.

Points out (yet again) that the UK law regarding unofficial industrial action would make that course of action very interesting.

[HundredPercentPlease]

If captains had taken a stand a few years back and refused to fly with any flexicrew pilot...

...then they would have been instantly dismissed.

You don't really get this, do you?

[cldrvr]

...then they would have been instantly dismissed.

You don't really get
this, do you?


Utter rubbish, there are loads of ways of stopping this cancer, it only takes a few line trainers and TRE's. They are the ones who participated in this and now they come here complaining how sh!t their industry is getting.....

[HundredPercentPlease]

cldrvr

Blame, blame, blame. :ugh:

If you are a LTC/TRE and suddenly you mostly fail people where previously you mostly passed people, then you will either be dismissed for IA, or disciplined/demoted for failing to be a trainer who can train.

Remember that lots of our flexicrew have may thousands of hours on type, and are not 200 hour wonderboys. One chap I regularly fly with has 9500 Airbus hours.

The significant change is that now all of our 450 flexicrew are seriously pissed off ("disappointed") and are looking to get out. In the mean time, from 1st April, existing employees and new flexicrew converts will have the legal opportunity for the first time to take industrial action.

[cldrvr]

Blame, blame, blame.


No, actively participating in preventing this cancer from spreading to our side of the industry, with results. Our T&C's are improving while yours are going down year on year.

10-15 years ago you guys were earning more than we did, that has now been reversed not only by yours going down, but ours are steadily improving.

Our longhaul drivers are now on contracts that even BA in its heyday could not reach. Long may it continue.

[cldrvr]

Companies like eJ and FR will only pay what they have to and as long as there are guys either willing to pay for their own training/uniforms/base checks and guys like your 9500 hour driver accepting crap terms and as long as there are LHS drivers willing to fly with them and trainers willing to train them, this is only going to get worse, not better.

Our part time FA's are on better money than your RHS drivers are, what does this say about your part of the industry.

You guys are in a race to the bottom, you haven't reached it yet.

[Craggenmore]

Just stick on another 500kg's for flexi-crew per flight.

It worked when Andy threatened to take away the free tea and coffee a few years ago.

(good to see a few more ex-Easy captains propping up the EK seniority list these days)

[HidekiTojo]

I honestly believe that Easyjet could offer total £25k pa for FO's and £40k pa for captains no pension etc and they wouldn't struggle finding people willing to do it...

[FRying]

I wouldn't go that far KidekiTojo... Plus they would really put the airline on fire, that's absolutely certain !

[veetwo]

Frankly they could pay FO's nothing for the first 2 years. Do you think they would struggle to find people? No. You've got £100,000 worth of debt and in 2 years you'll be on "better money". You just need to "suck it up" for the first little while.

The only way to improve things is to stop people taking on the debt in the first place by really educating people, particularly younger people, about what they're getting involved in. Once you've spent the money you're trapped and its game set and match to the airline!

[Guy of Gisborne]

FRying, HidekiTojo isn't far off the mark!
Give it a couple more years and these relatively low paid FOs will have the hours to sit in the LHS. Loco management will say "hey how do you fancy sitting in the LHS for 25% more?". How many of these youngsters will bite their hand off? And so the downward spiral continues.
Then lets see how many permanent captains and TREs jump to the fore!

[Guy of Gisborne]

V2, if the CAA followed the lead of the FAA, then a 1500hr minimum would stop it all.

[flieng]

veetwo, I reckon you,re spot on. If you extrapolate, and I have thought for a while, these contractors/first officers on twopence halfpenny will be offered a permanent command on at least £10k a year less than present Captains . The profession has become a sad joke, thanks to EZy and the other lot. I don,t this ever changing for the better, for pilots that is!

[FANS]

veetwo's made a good point, as I can only see T&Cs continue to decline.

The issue is who will educate these potential cadets before they sign on, as it needs to be a current group of airline pilots to have sufficient weight.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Why are we talking about pressuring these keen young pilots into giving up on their dreams??? I agree the system is abusing them and their financial backing but you're never gonna convince a driven and ambitious individual not to chase their dream. I went against many neigh sayers to become an airforce pilot.
The problem is with those who make the legislation. The FAA have stated this, as well as increased FDP, are reasons for recent fatal accidents and the demise of safety. Surely we should be lobbying the CAA to follow suit?
An increase requirement of 1500 hours will stop this CTC/Easyjet relationship and make young aspiring pilots work hard to get into an Airbus flight deck and rightly so.

[veetwo]

Regarding 1500 hours, I fail to see why it would improve the terms on offer? Surely people would be even MORE desperate reaching 1500 hours having spent 2 or 3 years trying to dodge impossible debt repayments (whilst probably accumulating more debt in the meantime). You're just kicking the can down the road...

[Guy of Gisborne]

V2, I think you're wrong. The dream is sold by CTC stating that a job is all but guaranteed on completion of the TR (albeit a short term contract). Without this, as you stated: "2 to 3 years trying to dodge impossible debt repayments" would mean these young guys couldn't possibly afford the repayments. They would even struggle to get the loan without the guarantee of work! Thus stopping them in their tracks or stopping them from even beginning the journey. There'll be the odd millionaire's offspring who won't be daunted.
Then, as in the US now, recruitment of pilots with 1500+ hours would begin in earnest before the ruling kicks in and as the supply dries up the T&Cs increase as will the salaries. Eventually, we would be back to a position where sponsorship and TRs are provided by airlines again. Military pilots would have the opportunity to continue their aviation careers and those in the desert could come home.

[fmgc]

BALPA and the then ezy CC are responsible for the introduction of flexicrew into easyJet.

When the CTC cadets asked for representation BALPA refused to help them citing that they were not employed by ezy so could not be represented.

When ezy wanted to offer a cadet payscale (as many airlines do to ameliorate their training costs) BALPA refused but agreed to "power by the hour" as an alternative.

But it's OK because the then BALPA Vice-chair now has her management job!

[Guy of Gisborne]

I don't understand why we are looking for someone to blame? It's the TREs fault, Easyjet captains' fault, BALPA's fault, Easyjet management's fault, CTC's fault, the baby pilot's fault!!!? Who cares? The industry I'd on its a**e and going downhill fast. What we need to look for is an answer to stop and eventually reverse the trend. Just look at recruitment in the US at the moment. There are still contractors and recruitment companies in a scramble to grab the 1500+ hour guys to freelance but, those guys with 1500+ hours are not normally dragging a £100,000+ debt behind them and so have more bartering room. The offers are already increasing as the deadline draws nearer. By the time it arrives those companies without the foresight to recruit early are gonna have to try to prise pilots from other airlines and how will they do that?

[Wageslave]

The industry I'd on its a**e and going downhill fast.

Yeah, right.

EJ has just made yet another annual record profit of several hundred Million pounds, yields are ever on the up, the "other lot" are in much the same shape. EJ's share price has, what? Trebled? Quadrupled in 2 yrs and they're on the brink of the FTSE 100. Directors are getting yet more multi-squillion bonuses. managers mere millions.

Pilots are getting screwed blind with below inflation "rises" because the company "cant afford more".

FOs are being screwed for inflated price training to buy a job that pays peanuts for years, jobs are being "created" by the hundred on paper but arent there when you look for the vacancies a new job necessarily produces...

The industry is on its arse all right because its sh!tting all over the people who do the work. Its going downhill fast in the nastiest race to the bottom the commercial world has seen in decades.

But not in the way the quotes were meant. Its a roaring runaway goldmine success for those with their fingers far enough in (ie up our) pie...

[FANS]

I don't see the issue as people that have applied for CTC etc. over the last few years knew the deal they were in for and still signed up and spent £100k.

It would be the airline's management that would also end up looking like idiots if they didn't adjust their pricing according to this ever increasing supply of satifsfactory FOs.

[Guy of Gisborne]

The issue is, FANS, that salaries, T&Cs and safety standards are all falling. If you think this is acceptable then fine carry on in your bubble until you're forced out of the industry, replaced by some young guy willing to do your job for 25% less. But when you start ranting then, the damage will be done.

[FANS]

GoG - it's got :mad: all to do with whether we think our T&Cs are acceptable or not.

When people are queuing up to enter the RHS despite the T&Cs being horrendous, then it would be crazy if the T&Cs didn't fall. The only issue will be if these people cause danger but short of a smoking hole, nothing will change. In fact, T&Cs will continue to come down and the LHS will come under pressure.

[Guy of Gisborne]

True FANS. But don't you want it to stop? Don't you want to save our industry before we are all freelance without any job security whatsoever?
Obviously the way to get things changed is using the safety card. A smoking hole in the ground is one way to learn the lesson but isn't it better to learn from someone else's mistakes? That's why I'm saying the CAA should follow the FAA and keep our FDP and increase an airline pilot's hour requirement to 1500+ hours.

[FANS]

Would love to stop it and have very bright & capable people entering rather those with the most cash. I'd love to not hear of people being surprised at how much their loan repayments are and that it can actually be hard and stressful work.

I don't think the minimum hours argument is valid, however, as plenty of people have been flying large aircraft in the UK with minimum hours for a long time.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Ok how do you propose we stop the current downward spiral? You must have some thoughts

[veetwo]

GoG / EcamS

Fair enough, you both make a good point. Obviously introducing a 1500 hour limit would make it harder to get into the airlines. In terms of how FTE/OAA/CTC would approach this problem I'm not entirely sure. But you can be sure that they would have a strategy as regardless of legislation they are not about to wave their business goodbye without a fight. Perhaps as you say it would be a start though.

Lets see what happens in the US!

[Wageslave]

The only way I can see that might break this employment logjam is to remove the system that creates it, ie the mandatory start to finish sponsored/totally funded system of zero-to-hero on one cheque and revert to the previous and time-proven hours-builder system where money didn't enable you to buy an airline job, nor the airlines to control the training market.

Then we'd be back to flying instructors struggling to get a job in air taxi or aerial work, then jump to commuter or local carriers before making the break to the heavy stuff. Airlines get experience as they can no longer control the process from end of high school stage, and maybe a bit of airmanship would return to the equation too. Call me a nostalgic old fud if you like, but that system worked far better imho.

Lots of the present generation of FOs and SOs would hate the idea I've no doubt as it involves effort and commitment unknown nowadays. I bet many of the Capts would welcome it. The essential thing is surely to remove the artificial distortion of the job market by airlines through a stranglehold on recruitmant that denies honest commercial pressures to drive the job market throughout the entire industry.
It would be like a powerful dose of laxative to our chronically constipated job market.

Not that there is a snowball's chance of it happening of course.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Brilliant post Wageslave and probably echoes the thoughts of all pilots not having come through the present P2F system.
But, there is a chance it could happen. It's beginning to happen in the US. So, how can we poll pilots on here to see if they want the CAA to follow the FAA's lead? Is there a way we can get all UK pilots to sign a petition requesting that this is what the CAA should do?

[veetwo]

Anyone can create an e-petition on the direct.gov.uk website. However this was done for the EU FTL campaign and despite getting tens of thousands of signatures did not reach the magic 100,000 required for a commons debate.

It won't make a shred of difference either way though. I've long thought it is completely ridiculous that the CAA is entirely funded by those it exists to regulate. How this cannot be a conflict of interest is anyone's guess, but as long as it is the case they are unlikely to take decisions which could be viewed as anti-business (namely anything that is likely to increase labour costs for airlines). The only thing likely to change that is the smoking hole, which if you remember is exactly what it took in the USA.

Nevertheless I admire the sentiment and I'd sure as hell sign it.

[Serenity]

I agree that a US style 1500 hrs limit would slow the que of people ready to pay for a rhs. Force a raising of conditions.

I also agree that the only way this will happen will be via a major accident.
I hope it never happens!
I know it is possible for anyone to make a mistake, but I am also aware of several major cadet led incidents, ie, they just didn't have the experience or knowledge to avoid a relatively simple and obvious error.

I used to work for a company whose training captains said that the company was scared the most at the prospect of a major accident. It would simply be the end of the company.
Unfortunately since then the skill standards have fallen with the introduction of the MPL. Mistakes have already been made by these volunteers. Computer skills and enthusiasm are ok but there is a major lack of aircraft handling skills. That came from the training captains too.

[brakedwell]

I was under the impression that the Insurance Companies had some say in the minimum qualification/experience levels of pilot employees. Surely the growing influx of inexperienced/partially trained cadets is a bit like replacing a Micra with a Ferrari and failing to inform Admiral!

[Guy of Gisborne]

I think the insurance goes off the captains hours. I could be wrong

[brakedwell]

I think the insurance goes off the captains hours. I could be wrong

I think you are right Guy, but when phrases like "one man band" and "accidents waiting to happen" are being bandied around it's about time Insurance Companies took another look at their risks.

[MaxReheat]

'Is there a way we can get all UK pilots to sign a petition requesting that this is what the CAA should do?'

Of course it's possible by the means of a strong, united union that represents ALL commercial pilots - not a mamby-pamby 'association' that represents certain vestige interests, which has never and never will have any intention of growing any teeth to further the T&Cs of the UK's professional pilots.

A union that goes to the employers en masse, promising that if nothng gets done about P2F and T&Cs, the entire UK airline industry stops on Monday morning, is the only way anything will change.

It will, of course, not happen and it is why these pages will continue to be filled by those bemoaning the current, sinking situation in which this profession finds itself, and prepared to do nothing about it.

It is only the bottom line that the accountants and managers of the airline businesses understand at that is where any action has to hit, and hit hard.

[Guy of Gisborne]

But the FAA acted without the pressure of any pilot association. It was decision based on safety. Their industry was in the same shape as ours, maybe a little worse but now the FAA are bragging that their pilots "are the most qualified and best trained in the world"!
So, they had fatal accidents one might argue but, as I said previous its better to learn from someone else's mistakes. Especially if that mistake is 100 fatalities!!!
I hope the CAA read these threads. Come on CAA show some backbone and stop being pressured by airline management.

[Artic Monkey]

The problem is the USA has the General Aviation infrastructure to allow their pilots to gain 1500hrs before sitting in an airliner. I am not sure the UK has that level of backbone in the GA sector to support it. I would be happy to see the magic number of 700hrs return, that's a start at least.

[GEKO]

While I agree with the above and would like to see like most of you a model where experience is more rewarded, I think we might wait a long time before seeing the CAA doing something (they are to busy converting licences to EASA!).
Before trying to change the whole industry, we should aim to maintain/improve our own T&Cs in our own airline.
It should not be possible to decrease salaries and remove benefits such as fixed rosters when the airline is highly profitable.
Are the new UK contracts been made in correlation with BALPA?

[turbine100]

I would like to see something like a 700hr requirement and mix of where the operator can recruit from, with jobs bring advertised.

I went and got some experience in GA which is AOC piston work, write / update our manuals with my boss and know the regs etc. also doing I.T systems and software development.

All of this unpaid, whilst holding a day job down, to build a file to take to airline interview with recommendations and sell my I.T skills.

Trained modular, no debt. 4 years applying, writing letters to airlines etc most weeks.

CTC are a road block for all in similar position to what I described above and actually I realised going off and doing the above, has not helped. But i have got a good grounding that I otherwise wouldn't have had.

The jobs are not advertised as CTC have contracts with the likes of EZY and a large number of other operators to feed in their flexi crew cadets from flight school in.

It would be fair if the low hour experienced job was advertised. All could apply directly, against base requirements with level playing field. This would mean the CTC cadet would also have to apply at the end of training. This will never happen, especially with the MPL being around, that requires partner airlines. I would like BALPA and specifically the regulators to step up and do as much as they can to change things in this area and the T&C's. Then maybe I would have a chance of getting an interview :)

[Superpilot]

turbine100, a reminder (in case you've forgotten) that this is a capitalist Europe. CTC's (and PARC's) monopoly of UK pilot recruitment is a direct result of old and accomplished former Airline Pilots becoming management blood suckers and creating recruitment systems which pocket them every penny in a market absolutely full of young 20 some things who want to fly a jet. It's the same in any industry and within most big corps. Those who become in charge will suck those at the bottom dry and nothing (not even the law or regulation) can stop them. It matters not a shred who gets affected by their decisions.

[WHYEYEMAN]

GEKO:

Although there were negotiations, the current new entrant contract is a unilateral move by Easyjet and is now the subject of a 'failure to agree' process.

[turbine100]

Superpilot

Generally I agree with you.

You dont need to remind me. My proper career of I.T which happens to be a global role in which I travel a lot, I see exactly how businesses work globally.

Exception being that my own proper industry of I.T is not as screwed up as aviation when it comes to recruitment. We dont pay to attend interviews or training courses. And as you mentioned, people in aviation trying to get in are taken advantage of.

[misterman]

Whilst I agree that it is an injustice that modular pilots get such a rough deal. Integrated courses do provide the airline with something that you cannot offer. You mention your 700 hours which is a nice number and obviously you have decent experience now, problem is the airline has no idea how that experience came about. They don't have any information about how many lessons it took for you to go solo, they cant see which areas of training you struggled in (obviously you may indeed have the perfect record - but they are none the wiser).

On the otherhand, the airline can see all of this information about the integrated cadet. As an ex-integrated cadet, we were under immense pressure throughout training to pass each detail first time, if we failed just one lesson, there would be a review procedure which would examine how to proceed. This may be a simple rerun of the lesson, or perhaps a re-training package or at worst, removal from the program. All of this will go into your final report and will have an impact on what airlines think of you and whether they will indeed take you. 2 first time passes just simply isn't enough information.

Throughout the training, nothing concerns the cadets anything more than what may get written down in their final report. We are absolutely expected to do everything in the minimum hours. Imagine if modular cadets were told they must complete the PPL in 45 hours or else they would never get employed with an airline. The pressure would be enormous.

Sorry if that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the reason why the airlines favour the cadets over the modular students, they are a known quantity. Rather than the students abilities (as everyone has the piece of paper that says they can instrument fly a multi-engine aircraft to a professional standard), rather the information they can gain about them - the knowledge they have had training discipline drilled into them from the start through a culture of fear, of failure and 'review' - that allows them to make an easier decision.

[cldrvr]

but it is the reason why the airlines favour the cadets over the modular
students, they are a known quantity


Nope, it is because you guys are willing to fly for peanuts, pay all your training cost and accept a pay deal only a fraction of what was the industry standard only a little while ago.

The airline does not care that you are a cadet or modular, they just found a willing pariticipant to use you as a pawn to erode the T&C's for a generation.

I pity you, just don't come here 5 years from now when you are on 30K flying the left seat working your butt of complaining here how sh!t the industry has become.

Your argument does not hold water, if you guys were that good, why do you get paid 20K less a year compared to non cadets?

The only reason you guys are there is because you are cheaper and you are willing to prostitute yourself for a flying apprenticeship, I won't even call it a job. The only reason you have lasted as long is that some senior crewmembers/trainers are participating in this scam.

You are going to look back when you are looking to buy a house and start a family and you will realise that you can't as you yourself have been responsible for destroying a good career.

Well done, the sad bit is, there are hundreds like you waiting to undercut our terms, fly for free, pay for their own training just to get into that right seat.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Misterman, that's bullsh*t!

Explain to me then why dozens of extremely well trained military pilots with thousands of hours and a detailed training record you could only dream of from the likes of CTC etc, are overlooked for 250hour integrated course ab initios???

It's the incestuous relationship between training school and loco carrier and the fact that ex mil aren't stupid enough to be pushed around by loco airlines for sh*t money and no T&CSs. The locos know that when you have a £100,000 debt to honour you'll take anything they offer you. I'm sorry if I offend any integrated flexicrew but the "pressure" misterman talks about, multiply that by 10 and you'll understand what ex mil pilots have all experienced. Plus they are trained officers and used to being managers.

I know an ex mil pilot, thousands of hours, both Fast Jet and ME, who even offered to pay for his own TR with CTC but was told "we only take ab initios with no experience." Now, why would that be?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The Wannabe Zombie Army are unstoppable, cannot be reasoned with and they are legion every year.

The consequences are predictable and observable.

They blame the system.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

The military aircrew argument is difficult (I am ex-mil myself). A substantial number of easyJet's trainers are ex-military and that would tell its own story in terms of their basic competence. However, for years military pilots walked into the top jobs and a number did themselves no favours by pouring scorn on those pilots who had never flown in the military and 'only' had commercial experience. Sadly, some formed an almost masonic relationship with their fellow ex-military colleagues and all the top jobs went to their mates. There is no doubt they are on the whole very capable people, but times have changed and it is now incredibly difficult for an ex-military pilot to gain employment in the civil world. This is a temporary blip, and I believe that in the next year or two a more equitable situation will arise. Nonetheless, I do not foresee a return to the 'old days' with jobs for the boys. What I do see is that ex-military pilots will have to pay for type ratings like everyone else and pay some serious money to get their feet on the ladder. What is clearly ludicrous is the current situation of taking countless young and inexperienced pilots who can barely land the aircraft instead of a wider recruitment policy embracing the best of all parts of the industry.

[sdryh]

Misterman, I so disagree about integrated pilots being better, this is just the brain washing they tell you. I am from the modular route funded and paid for by myself. I didn't go for the integrated because I wanted to work and pay for my licence. I attended very good schools all within a 2 year period, first time passes on everything. You can prove to any employer about your training, ie hours and pass record. I work for a major airline as a captain and see both modular and integrated FOs join. You cannot hand on heart tell them apart, there are good and bad from both sides.

The only reason easyjet etc take integrated pilots form CTC is because they can be exploited. Who in their right mind would take on a £100,000 loan in order to get a unsecured job on less that £20,000? Baffles me. It's about time the caa and balpa sort this exploitation of pilots out. Experience counts for nothing now and I can see in the next decade pilots being paid less that bus drivers unless people act now.

[veetwo]

Just to provide a bit of balance here, I don't doubt that most ex military pilots are highly capable and very switched on. That said, some of the most difficult, headstrong, awkward people I have ever flown with are ex military. Some of them just seem unable to let go of their military ways and run the day essentially as a single pilot operation with little or no CRM on display. I can think of a few choice examples in the easyjet training department which were notorious amongst the first officer community whilst I was there.

Flown with some absolutely fab ex mil people too of course. Point is, just because you flew a fast jet once upon a time doesn't mean you'll be well suited to a multi crew commercial operation.

Surely it's the same for integrated/modular. You'll get good and bad from both... Unfortunately however the one thing you can't escape is that these days your chances of employment with the major airlines are greater if you choose to go integrated.

[misterman]

I feel people may have missed my point somewhat. Everyone seems to have read that post as if I was saying integrated cadets were better pilots than modular students. I urge you to re-read this and perhaps it will become apparent that this is not what I meant. Just to emphasise the point about the training record and its merits over what is likely to be a fairly sporadic report from other flying schools (although I am assuming this).

I wasn't comparing the training records of ex-mil pilots to those of integrated cadets just simply to the low houred GA pilots. My post was simply addressing that of turbines directly. I agree it is an unfair situation and I have been lucky.

I perhaps worded it badly, I won't edit my original post as I have seen on here how that allows people to change their arguments casually. Perhaps I should have said that this was 'one of the reasons'.

It is indeed a shame some are willing to work for peanuts but others have put plenty of input into this argument so will leave that to others.

If anything, I don't give a good view of the integrated schools - rather them being a place where people fear to maintain their perfect records or risk the waste of the premium paid to join such a course.

I am sure the majority would have enjoyed the training more doing it differently, the reality is that many cadets will have often found it a bit of a chore.

[Guy of Gisborne]

V2and A De M, my response to Misterman wasn't a "Military Aircrew are better" argument. It was a response to his reasoning that airlines prefer integrated pilots because they are a known entity. I was showing that this is not the reason as military pilots can provide 3 years worth of detailed training reports from every single sortie. However, military pilots cannot even get a look in, even if they offer to pay for their TR with the likes of CTC. So obviously, it is some other reason that integrated cadets are selected before others.
The military/civil argument is something which I don't wish to go into during this thread.

[stiglet]

Whether they're civil or military / integrated or modular the end issue is the attitude they bring to the job. The most common first question I'm asked by those thinking of becoming a pilot is 'how much do you earn'; says it all doesn't it.

sdryh #112 - in reply to your post the problem is these cadets don't go into it thinking they are going to 'take on a £100,000 loan in order to get a unsecured job on less that £20,000'. Many say they expect to be in the right hand seat for a couple of years then move to the left seat on £100,000+. Some even start talking about their desire to be in training in a very short while. The schools don't help by giving them the impression they are 'the best of the best' as they are the chosen ones; a statement I've heard on more than one occassion.

Realisation soon sets in and then they complain. Only when their T&C drop will the future recruits see the reality of the situation.

[Larrylaz]

Misterman. You are spot on! It's all about cash - nothing else. It's hard to say this coming from an instructor background myself, but 700 or 700,000 hours GA - you're no closer to an EZY job I'm afraid.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Larrylaz, I think you've misread Misterman's post. He's saying its nothing to do with cash but the training and the indepth training record that the integrated cadets receive!
Although, you are right it's all about the money

[Larrylaz]

I stand corrected. However we all know the point. It's all about the cheapest labour and there ain't no cheaper than a young buck with pockets stuffed with Dad's cash!!

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Guy of Gisborne - I completely agree that military guys are a known quantity, like the integrated course pilots. I also agree with others that the overriding qualification to get into easyJet is money to pay for a course. The hiring of low-houred pilots in the numbers that have been typical in recent years has been absolutely ridiculous. The days are long gone when you can say that easyJet hires the best pilots - they hire the cheapest, simple as that. That means huge numbers of very capable pilots are prevented from even applying and instead we have taken numerous pilots who cannot even land the aircraft safely. I have always backed a broad recruitment policy taking from the ranks of ex-flying instructors, helicopter pilots, non-rated jet pilots, ex-mil, ex-turbine, self improvers and cadets. That has been conspicuously absent for many years now and I think that is a safety issue - but who am I?

[Guy of Gisborne]

A De M, I think that is the problem we face. but who am I?

We are voicing our opinions as individuals. Is there a way of setting up a poll on pprune? It would give everybody on here the opportunity to vote yes or no to flexicrew. Then we may have an idea of numbers against. Or perhaps, BALPA could put a poll on their website so members can show their contempt.
As an individual I have raised my concerns with BALPA, CAA and my MP. I have had a response from BALPA who seem to be approaching this problem from the employment law side of things. This is an excerpt of their response

"we need to continue to tackle the airlines that engage ‘flexicrew’, or whatever derivation emerges, on a disposable basis. We sought to do that in easyJet this summer but as you may know the deal got the thumbs down. We are keen to return to the issue. We are also looking at how we can stop the practice becoming established elsewhere and what we have done in Monarch and are currently balloting on in Thompsons are cases in point.

Fourthly we are working with Labour Research and our lawyers Speechlys to put together guidance and drawing on case studies. I cannot commit to e mail all that we are doing in this project but when we have developed it further we will want to do a ‘sense check’ with our members."

I don't expect to see any results there in the next 5 years. The CAA have not replied even though I sent my email twice in the last 6 months. My MP has replied and is doing some background digging of his own.

[cldrvr]

The CAA? Good luck with that, it is a public corporation with no government funding, it is entirely funded by the ones it is supposed to regulate.

Fox, hen, house.

[cldrvr]

A few years back, the crew at eJ held "action" over on board coffee, which was promptly reinstated after crews started working to rule and adding half a ton of fuel here and there.

If only the crews would react the same way when it came to having their terms cut by 20-30%, I guess coffee is more important.

I have been going on about this cancer for 5 years here and will do anything in my power to keep it out of our corner of the industry, it is a shame that the eJ and FR crews never felt the same way when this ugly thing reared its head.

A company like eJ will only pay what they have to and as long as there are new crews willing to work for peanuts and existing crews willing to go along with it, this will only end up in tears.

[Craggenmore]

The days are long gone when you can say that easyJet hires the best pilots

I was never the best pilot at easyJet but more importantly I was never the worst and I could always land the plane at my ranks ability no matter what. I will always remember what AdM said to me after someone's command check to eastern Europe on a rough night back into LGW :ok:

But what is not often spoken about is the fact that easyJet were unable to retain the services of these pilots.

[smith]

Em don't operate the 330 so can't employ 330 pilots, they only operate the 319 and 320

[dwshimoda]

we have done in Monarch and are currently balloting on in Thompsons are cases in point.

Guy of Guisborne, there's not much hope if BALPA can't even correctly spell the name of one of their major memberships? That's beyond poor... And just one of the many reasons I am questioning my membership. What they allowed in EJ is also beyond a joke.

[Guy of Gisborne]

I realise the CAA are not a government funded entity but any sort of response would have been polite, even a PFO!
You never know, they might be using the last 6 months to word and spellcheck their reply correctly before I paste it here (BALPA).
I'm a fighter but I'm losing the will against this situation. Perhaps it's time to jump ship and leave a 16 year career I have thoroughly enjoyed.

[drfaust]

@misterman (or something)

A known quantity? I went Integrated with Oxford back in '06 and if there is anything I have realized about myself and my fellow 148HR TT colleagues back then it's this; you are anything but a known quantity. I swallowed the "integrated training is much preferred by the airlines"-pill like many others back in "my day" which after all isn't so long ago and I can tell you one thing; I wish I hadn't. I would have been in an infinitely better financial position going the modular way and earning my stripes up without a debt to service.

I've had the good fortune of not having to pay for any type-ratings, but that's all it was; good fortune. I wasn't any better and am not any better the pilot because of my "Integrated Airline Preparation Programme (c)". If anything I would say my best training days were conducted in the four years I spent with my first airline flying the DHC8.

Conclusion: cut the bull-crap. The industry is filling the right hand seat with people that can pay for it and not with people that are suitable for it whether with experience, or the ability (shown on some sort of thorough assessment). I don't blame you for falling for it, I was 20 when I did -- there were no sponsorships back then. In some sense the current state of the industry is the fault of my generation, yet somehow I can't help but feel utterly abandoned by our more senior colleagues in the more established airlines. Where are the strikes in EZY and RYR to prevent this abuse of youngsters? Or the unions in KLM/AF/DLH/SWISS appealing to the general public and the EU like they are now about FDR's? As far as I'm concerned this financial bloodsucking needs to stop; paying for any type rating should be made illegal in Brussels as a requirement to be EU-OPS compliant.

Or on another note: isn't there anything regulators can do about this clearly discriminatory hiring practice happening in the industry? One of the only fair firms around seems to be BA, their requirements usually mean that you speak English and have a bunch of hours on your name with the right license. Try doing that in the Netherlands, France, Germany, etc. One would think that if you have a JAR/EASA license, speak English, have a high school diploma and a logbook full of experience applicable to the job there is almost no way to dismiss a candidate.

Anyway, rambling on' ... a known quantity, talk to you in 3000 hours and you can tell me what you think of that comment yourself.

[misterman]

I graduated a couple of years ago at an unfortunate time and joined a long queue for jobs. I was one of the lucky ones and finished at a time the airlines had began to start clearing out the pools. As we started, we all felt sorry for those graduating and held on to hope things would have improved in 2 years time. I was well aware of classmates that knew the consequences of a perhaps poorly timed start of training. I am sure none of you will believe me but I was under no illusion before starting training that my provider was perfect. I knew I wouldn't have a job the morning after passing my IR and fortunately I had a previous career I could fortunately return to easily should things not quite work out for one reason or another. I was not 20, I knew my provider couldn't possibly be the best flying school in the world, I also knew that they didn't owe me a job how ever much the brochures suggested they would.

Again, I was just replying to a comment left by one user asking why his 700 likely mixed GA hours (assumption) may leave potential employers without perhaps less information than one of the big 3 could provide. I do agree with you that as unfortunate as it is, the airlines will continue to take those that can afford it. EZY is pretty bad and the wonderful new contract is obviously a bit of a joke. Ryanair is worse but as I understand the take home pay isn't terrible (don't quote me). It is of course a horrible situation for everyone to be in, the graduates are forced to take a job or else they lose currency and miss their opportunity. I would have loved to work my way up through African flying and onto turboprops. I feel I have missed out an important step of career development. Me and my family needed a semblance of stability so I felt that I had taken a better option.

I will leave it there as we seem to be going round in circles and it was a sort of off topic reply in the first instance. I appreciate union pressure on the airlines but more must be done.

[ArmApp]

any idea about the requirements and when would be open please??:ok:

[Guy of Gisborne]

ArmApp, have you not read this thread? You're the reason Easyjet are getting away this!!!!

[Serenity]

Not sure this will solve any problems, either in the industry or at Easyjet.

Was chatting to an Easy FO who had been on the contract work for two years. He was glad for the rating, but disliked the conditions, no pension etc etc.

He then mentioned that they were being offered the permanent contract, but on a B scale?, which was much lower than current permanent FO t&c. He stated that on this lower scale it would be near impossible to meet loan repayments, mortgages and be near impossible to survive on!

He said that they were all still looking to leave as soon as they could and gain better employment conditions elsewhere!,
The exodus will continue as soon as they can!

[cldrvr]

The exodus will continue as soon as they can!


eJ doesn't care, hundreds of others willing to pay for the privilege. FO's have become a cheap commodity and a tool to reduce the T&C's of the guys and galls in the LHS.

[FANS]

Was your FO mate surprised that permanent contracts are now lower than they were a few years ago?

This will nbe a continuing trend as cldrvr's alluded to.

[Narrow Runway]

"Ryanair is worse but as I understand the take home pay isn't terrible (don't quote me)."

And there in lies a rub: For far too long, glossy eyed wannabees have looked at SALARY ALONE as a marker.

I am in the fortunate position that:

1) I have never paid for ratings;

2) I graduated in 2000;

3) I am now a Captain and;

4) I am no longer in airlines, but in the best side of corporate flying.

However, consider this. I recently saw a friend of mine who works for Ryanair. He has been there 11 or so years, Ryanair employee, LTC at a main base.

He earned £119,000 last year for 900 hours of constant stress and hassle, plus unpaid duties. There is absolutely no healthcare, loss of licence, death in service or very importantly pension.

I worked 350 hours last year and earned £123,240. Plus 15% employer pension contributions and a full package of benefits. We had to push our employer to give us a really good package, but they did because they realise we are key to keeping people safe and doing a good job when called upon to do so. That package is all worth at least £30,000 on top of the BASIC....

It is such a shame that we seem to be blinded by bare numbers, salary or hourly rates - call it what you will.

The career (if it can be called that) used to be a senior role and respected as such. Now, it seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy that we are going to cannibalise ourselves in the race to the bottom.

It always used to be a long term game, involving perhaps 20 years to Command in good airlines. Now, it is a headlong rush to becoming an FO on an A320 with 200 hours, with a Command at exactly 3000 hours.

Sod the future, as long as I have 4 bars and can drive a Porsche to work. I don't need a pension.......

.......that's the future - and the quality of the decision making we are recruiting into the business. It makes me very, very concerned.

[PENKO]

Narrow Runway, great post! Where can I and my 2500 colleagues apply?

[beauport potato man]

I have 4 bars and am a captain at eJ, wish I drove a Porsche to work.....

[a4000]

So whats the situation now. Are guys signing up for this permanent contratct? What is BALPA's stance?

[Narrow Runway]

BPM: I bet you drive a 10 year old vintage Ford, like I do :-)

Penko: Miraculously, I saw this job on Flight Global quite a while ago. Keep your eyes peeled. Amongst the sh1te is the rare gem.

[Guy of Gisborne]

After 5 months of waiting I received an email response from the CAA:

"The safety of all UK operators is taken very seriously by the CAA, and we have worked with industry to ensure that operators properly manage the use of contract pilots.

The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO).

UK operator's Flight Time Limitations (FTL) schemes, are approved by the CAA and the monitoring of crew fatigue reporting trends also forms part of the CAA's routine oversight. As you may be aware, EASA-wide regulations on FTL are currently being developed. We are very much aware of the FAA’s new rules which, although they differ from EASA’s proposals on certain aspects, both have a similar approach, are based on scientific data, and achieve comparable levels of protection."

Just wondering what the "similar approach" was between FAA and EASA rules???
FAA decreasing FTL and EASA increasing!

The main crux of my email to them was why are we happy to continue with flexicrew/p2f when the FAA are increasing their ATP requirements to 1500 hours, with a little FTL thrown in.

[Superpilot]

That is the very same response they gave to CHIRP.

[Deep and fast]

You're all wasting your breath. There is only one thing companies take notice of, and that is people making a stance by using their feet. Either stamping them hard or walking away.

When people start leaving or striking and they can't meet the schedule they will change. In the mean time business as usual.

The other thing is people aren't prepared to wait. I want to be an airline pilot and I want it now. They throw cash in huge sums at a problem and think it will open doors, but market forces or greater than any one individual.
Me, I went a modular route and bided my time. Still made a few wrong decisions, but now home, happy and left seat.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Obviously the company line. They must have had a lot of inquiries about flexicrew and P2F.
When I didn't get a response for 5 months I emailed CHIRP with a copy of the email I sent to the CAA. They took it much more seriously and are including it in other emails which are to be included in a report at the Air Transport Advisory Board. It seems representatives at CHIRP have much higher regard for the safety of our industry.

[Deano777]

The CAA couldn't really give a toss. There is no similar approach, the FAA have stamped it out, the CAA have not. That's chalk & cheese in my book.

Also, based on that emailed response, nothing will change because ASR levels have not increased. The only difference now is that instead of having a nice day out, the skippers workloads have increased which is keeping the said ASR levels where they are. Does this make the flightdeck a safe environment? What do I know.

[Superpilot]

As has been said before our regulator regulates the very companies that maintain it's existence through licensing and other fees. Aviation isn't the only British industry to suffer from this fate but there you go, capitalism at it's finest. The same thing happens in the third world but we have a different name for the practice :rolleyes:

[BirdmanBerry]

Guys,

I'm glad I found this thread and have read it through.

My current situation is I am 33 and have wanted to be a pilot for years but without the cash to pay for it. I now have a successful business and there is an option to sell up to follow my dream.

I recently found the CTC programmes and have been in touch with them regarding their Cadet route. Now, reading this thread seems to shed light on a totally different side of these courses to what they make you think.

I was originally told, a few years ago (I think by someone at Oxford) that airlines prefer integrated pilots over modular and to be honest, I believed this.

I'm very lucky to live within 5 minutes of Staverton (Gloucestershire) Airport which is one of the top, GA airports in England and has some good schools.


So my question would be aimed more to experienced pilots, how many of you came through the modular route? Can anyone 'speak' for their airline on what they prefer in the way of training routes? It would certainly be much cheaper to go modular.

I really don't like what I'm reading about the EJ cadet route and with one young child, and another on the way, the loan repayments now look like they would be an issue. The EJ website makes it all look very nice and well rewarded but now I'm really not sure.

This whole thread has been an eye opener...

[kick the tires]

Traditionally people used to do their PPL, Flying Instructors Rating, or was it AFI first, spent years as an instructor and then CPL, fly turbo props and finally get in a Jet.

It used to take years, with long hours and low pay. But now there is the option of walking off the street and, eventually, into the flight deck of an Airbus.

Do people expect not to pay for that? So many moan and groan about the cost and the loan repayments. Do you really expect it for free? Can anyone of the old school estimate the cost of the traditional route before this 100K route came along?

Nobody holds a gun to anyones head on this. ALL airlines do it, not just EJ.

I'm not saying its right or that the costs are reasonable and representative but at the end of 5-7 years whatever it is, you have a lot of experience in a jet cockpit. I suspect it is the same time period and cost of the traditional route!!

[u0062]

Birdman look under the other threads like the wannabes I presently work for the Orange Airline Most days I listen to the fo telling how desperate they are no money sleeping on friends floors some have gone bankrupt. If you would like to pm I will give you as much advise as I can. Unbiased just facts

[BirdmanBerry]

Thanks.

I've looked through a lot of threads but this one really made me think is it really worth the risk? I deliberately Googled for PPrune EasyJet as I knew I'd find good honest info here.

The schools make it sound like they are the only way you'll get a job in Aviation and I was being sucked that way slightly.

Even if I sold my business, there would be living costs both for myself and my partner and kids so we'd still be borrowing money to do this. My business sale, if achieved, wouldn't cover the cost of the training.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind who I worked for to an extent, I just want to fly, it's what's love doing.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Now I have a response from my local MP! He sent me the letter he received from the minister for transport and guess what, it was an exact copy of the "party line" I got from the CAA!

"The safety performance of crew must be assured by the operators, and is closely monitored by the CAA as part of their oversight programmes. This applies whether a pilot is employed on a contract, as a direct entry type rated pilot or as a graduate of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO)."

He'd obviously just passed my concerns straight to the CAA for their response. Complete cop out

[A and C]

As one of the old sods who got my ATPL the old way I will take a guess at a total cost of around £30k at 1985 prices.

The great advantage of the old system was that you could hold down a job while doing the training and you had 700 hours of flying behind you when you got to the airliner cockpit.

With my usual sense of timing my CPL/IR was issued on the day Air Europe went bust ! But having a full time job just resulted in me continuing to instruct part time at a flying club until an airline job showed up two years later.

Also I have five airliner type ratings that I never paid a penny for but the airline did require a two year training bond for these type ratings. At the time a lot of plots considered training bonds to be the work of the devil and an illegal restraint of trade, I bet the guys working for flexicrew would bite my hand off for such a deal !

As I was finishing off the CPL the writing was already on the wall for the free type rating with the training bond as a few of the rich kids passing through the system where already offering to buy a type rating in exchange for a job, as you all now know to your considerable cost it did not take very long for the bean counters to get wise to the money that could be made from the rich kids parents.

[kriskross]

Birdman, after 45 years in the aviation business I hope I can pass on some thoughts. Both my sons expressed some interest in commercial aviation, but nowadays, I am so pleased that they decided not to go down that route. It is vital with your responsibilities that you explore all the avenues open to you but really understand what you are getting into. Do you want to fly or do you want to fly commercially - there is a difference. If the former, with a successful business, and living close to Staverton, a beautiful area, possibly a PPL and club flying may be a safer option for you

[Deep and fast]

I have never seen commercial aviation as a hobby or fun job, it is an office like any other where you are paid to perform a task for the financial benefit of the employer. If everybody had the same idea the career would be all the better for it.

Now if you want to talk about the best office window, then there is no better worldwide :ok:

As kriskross said there is more fun to be had elsewhere.

[A and C]

Oh dear ! More lambs to the slaughter.

[Thad Jarvis]

Quite a few have smelled the coffee and elected to pursue their careers outside the orange machine lately. Perhaps that's why another course has been arranged. These wonderful new entrant contracts will lead to B scale commands and a final assault on existing captains. It isn't difficult to work out and it is straight out of the Ryanair guide to shoddy practice. Can't think where they got the idea from :E

[BirdmanBerry]

I would certainly like to fly commercially, not just for pleasure.

What I'd give though, for the old days when you could pop into the cockpit to see what actually goes on and learn more about the job.

I spoke with Aeros years back and from reading up on them again, maybe their modular route would be the way to go, that way I can still run the business but also see how I feel each stage of the journey. I am sure I'll not wish to stop the training though.

At the moment I take every opportunity I can to fly, from gift vouchers to corporate gliding days and I used to Paraglide.

I think I'll pop and see Aeros but I'm most certainly staying away from CTC and programmes like that now so thank you everyone on this thread for saving me!

[A and C]

You make an interesting point if EZY are having trouble filling training courses then they are the third European airline with this problem starting to emerge.

I am going to take a guess that tis is the reason that RYR hase eased up on the T&C'S for DEC's joining the company.

It is starting to look as if the bean counters enthusiasm for turning the right seat into a revenue stream has resulted in those who have passed the line check not getting much flying ( to enable the sat to be used for P2F ) and so the company's have a glut of low time FO's who can't qualify for upgrade to captain due to the few hours they have been flying.

I shall know when the boot is firmly on the other foot when I hear airline bosses telling the aviation press about those nasty disloyal pilots ! The last time I saw this situation I got a 25% pay rise in one year without any negotiation as the airline attempted to stem the rush for the door.

[kriskross]

Good luck, Birdman.

[Man Flex]

Birdman

With respect, the modular route has slowly died a death over the years. Thanks to P2F, there are many PPL/GA instructors you are stuck and unable to progress their careers.

It will take you at least 2 years to get your CPL/IR and then you would have to apply for an instructor rating. How old are you now?

I'm afraid some rich 22 year old CTC graduate is going to be well favoured over a mid-30s modular route grafter. That's simply the way it is now.

Why would you give up your current business and lifestyle to pursue a dream that may well end up as a nightmare?

There are no guarentees, no matter which route you take.

[WhyByFlier]

Right, let's really dispel some myths here because what you're saying is just silly, emotional and sensationalist. I can personally guarantee you that the majority of people doing CTC etc. are not rich - not by a long, long, long way. They may well be reckless, irresponsible and selfish but they aren't rich. Many are from from family homes that have at most a £250-350K house. I hope I'm not being a snob or out of touch with reality but those figures don't make them remotely well off to my mind. I was extremely lucky i.e. through no skill, foresight or design of my own to be have the unsecured loan through CTC and be able to train without one penny of backing from my parents or anyone else. About one year after I started with CTC all unsecured loans were pulled. Whilst doing my MCC/JOC and TR, and also now flying the line I have met tens and even hundreds of people who trained after me and had to take secured loans / 'borrow' from their family.

Personally I would not and morally could not have done what they did. I've met 19 year old state school kids whose parents live in some of the less affluent Northern cities and came across as very 'Down to Earth' when I met them. I met them at Dibden whilst they were having meet and greets and i was doing the advanced training. These people asked me for my opinion on what they were doing - putting their homes - sometimes worth £200K - up as collateral for the training. I obviously declined to comment and advised the ball was in their court. These people make up the majority of the trainees. Because the loan isn't attached to them and as is the nature of youth and pilots they go and get their own finance on cars - which anyone can get - especially people who appear to hold no debt - remember the debt is on their parents homes. i've seen these guys - when they want a holiday or an ipad then mum and dad say, don't worry - have a month off. I don't have that luxury with my loan - It's pay or go into arrears.

There are a few rich people training (nothing like the majority though) - strangely enough some of these are the :mad: that have gone bankrupt and possibly ruined the chance of unsecured borrowing for a course like this in the future. they make me laugh - they have lovely cars, always the latest apple products, the luxury of staying on Flexi until they get what the base, contract they want an sometimes even mortgages. I don't get emotional about them though because that's their life and their families right. I'm learning a great deal from my position - restraint, responsibility and control. i know i'll have paod for and earned everything I have. If i was lucky enough to have my parents pay for it all, would I have done - you're damned skippy I would have. And so would you. So don't be jealous, bitter or a blamer. The stresses, strains and missed youth I have incurred from my debt are a massive hurdle.

We were offered some tasty parting advice by one of the directors after some cock ups - in this industry don't blame and don't complain - you'll spend your life miserable and disliked.


The people who have been instructors for 2-3 years, trained 5 years ago etc do make me laugh - you too could have tried CTC and had an unsecured loan. Why didn't you? Bad research, bad decision making or didn't get in? CTC isn't some superlative training establishment and it's product isn't necessarily the best so please don't think that is my claim. But it did the job for me. I didn't like some of the 'bosses' one bit but......whatever.

My advice?

- Integrated is the emphatic way to go if you decide to train. I don't care what someone who trained 12 years ago says - this is now. I can see why having previously done a PPL. Comparing integrated and modular is like comparing an airline and a small biz jet operator. The airline has strict, monitored SOPs, standardisation, continuity (750+ hours a year) and a wealth of experience. The biz jet operator is a bit suck it and see, make the picture fit and lacking in continuity (300 hours a year max). All of my ex biz jet friends agree having now flown for easyJet.

- I repeat I would not and could not (morally) gamble against my parents home.

- Don't listen to the crap on here. Get off here and never look back on here until you are in an airline or paid flying position.


Disclaimer: I'm not looking down my nose at anyone who has trained modularly, flown biz jets or taken loans against their parents homes. There are pros to taking these routes - you're eventual decision will be a best case average. If you're offered a biz jet position once qualified you'd be mad not to take it.

[A and C]

An interesting post that on the face of it seems to advise the course of action that will result in training company's that take upwards of £110k from a person for a training course with the prospect of a job at the end of the course. then when the trainee has successfully compleated the course draws then into a contract that they know full well will not provide enough money to service the debt. However a second read of the post gives a more balanced view but is supportive of the integrated system despite its dangers.

It is hardly a moral and sustainable way of doing business and fortunately the banks have pulled the unsecured loans as a result of unfortunates who have been forced into personal bankruptcy.

It is the airlines that have seen the right hand seat as a revenue stream that are pushing this integrated training thing because it makes them money, it has nothing to do with the quality of the pilot ( generally those who have done the modular route are slightly better pilots in my experience ). It is all about how to extract the most money from those wishing to join the industry.

The policy to choose to employ those who have been on a company approved integrated course has to be seen in the light of the deal they are offering at the end of the course, a company that is offering real full time employment that gives the new FO a secure future ( as it is in the airline business!) with a realistic chance of servicing the training debt is acting in a reasonable way given the state of the industry, those however who offer a contract that binds you to the airline on a pay only when you fly are only interested in making money from you and are likely to drive you into debt as they sit the next young hopefull in the seat you have just vacated.

To advise people to get off these forums and not come back until they have a flying job is foolish, these forums present an unvarnished view of the industry as apposed to the glossy publicity pushed out by the training industry and are a much needed reality check for those who are about to invest large amounts of cash in their future.

The integrated way might well have been sucsesfull for Whybeflier but before embarking on the integrated course and the debts that go with it you have to be realistic about the way you are going to repay those debts, take a very good look at any contract and be sure that you have a real job at the end of the course, NOT some contract that ties you to an agency that may or may not offer you enough work ensure that you can meet your debts.

[WhyByFlier]

If you can point out where I condoned the price tag, the airlines behaviour ( which is deplorable) or being bound to a contract agency I will happily remove those parts or apologise for the statements.

I said if you are going to train - go integrated.

I find this place has as many opinions as there are posters. It makes deciding difficult. The tone is extremely negative (though realistic) however that won't be helpful during training should one decide to go ahead.

My main point was that CTC trainees are not rich kids.

I'll add that if I said what I thought of CTC and some of the 'directors' there I'd probably be banned. It'd be full of 4 letter words. Not nice ones.

From no where we were bent firmly over a barrel.

Perhaps re-read my post then re-read yours.

[A and C]

I have taken a second look at your post and have amended my reply as a more careful re-read indicates that the content and tone are not quite the same.

You are quite correct in pointing out that the CTC cadets are not rich kids......well not at the end of the course!

I am not sure which way to read the bit about being bent over a barrel, but I think you intended to say that you consider the management had a firm grip of your testicles from day one ! Please correct me if I have misinterpreted you.


As you have no doubt I am not a supporter of the way some company's are using the integrated system to in effect bond people by getting them into large amounts of debt and then limiting their income. No one should start a career with the uncertainty of how they are going to service that much debt.

I have no issues with the actual flying training but the quality issues that the integrated training providers use to justify their practices are pure rubbish, the real reason that these people don't like the modular system is that it fails to fit their profit model.

Unfortunately the advantages that those who have had another career and decide to go along the modular route are very difficult to quantify and are unlikely to show until the person is no longer under line training, only when it comes to the command upgrade will the wider aviation education become a real advantage.

[WhyByFlier]

over a barrel - Idioms - by the Free Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/over+a+barrel)

That is what I meant by being bent over a barrel.

To quash another myth - plenty of CTC integrated cadets had previous careers and most are older than 19 - off the top of my head there was a doctor, a lawyer, engineers, estate agents, military officers, police officers, Architects, bankers, sales people, rampys, red caps, IT consultants, Air Traffic Controllers and so on.

I'd say 80% had degrees.

On my course the age range was 22-32.

As I understand it the people who have subsequently joined up, knowing that flexicrew would be the way forward and without unsecured borrowing are generally younger and have a less varied background.

The purpose of my posting really is to cut the emotion from some people's post. Certain 'adjectives' are surplus to requirements.

Anyway, join this at your own risk. You know how it is now. If you do decide to join up remember what CTC took such great pleasure in telling us - don't blame and don't complain.

And as a captain taught me on my very first day released to line - if in doubt, there's no doubt.