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stuckgear
29th Jan 2013, 20:28
Economy: presseurop (http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/news-brief/3333381-france-bankrupt)

France 'totally bankrupt', says labour minister Michel Sapin - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9832845/France-totally-bankrupt-says-labour-minister-Michel-Sapin.html)

France is 'totally bankrupt', jobs minister admits as concerns grow over Hollande's tax-and-spend policies | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2269938/France-totally-bankrupt-jobs-minister-admits-concerns-grow-Hollandes-tax-spend-policies.html)


Michel Sapin made the gaffe in a radio interview, which left French President Francois Hollande battling to undo the potential reputational damage.

“There is a state but it is a totally bankrupt state,” Mr Sapin said. “That is why we had to put a deficit reduction plan in place, and nothing should make us turn away from that objective.”

The comments came as President Hollande attempts to improve the image of the French economy after pledging to reduce the country’s deficit by cutting spending by €60bn (£51.5bn) over the next five years and increasing taxes by €20bn.

Data from Banque de France showed earlier this month that a flight of capital has already left the country amid concerns that France’s Socialist leader intends to soak the rich and businesses.




An online poll in today’s Le Figaro newspaper showed, by lunchtime, that 80.5 per cent of readers agreed that France was indeed bankrupt.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/29/article-2269938-173B7B43000005DC-20_634x370.jpg

What's that comment about socialists running out of money ?

Sunnyjohn
29th Jan 2013, 20:41
France 'totally bankrupt', says labour minister Michel Sapin - Telegraph

France is 'totally bankrupt', jobs minister admits as concerns grow over Hollande's tax-and-spend policies | Mail Online

Now that's what I call a balanced view - a comment from a paper on the right and a comment from a paper on the, er, um . . .

Lonewolf_50
29th Jan 2013, 21:21
Stuck in reverse, Detroit edges closer to bankruptcy - Business on NBCNews.com (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/stuck-reverse-detroit-edges-closer-bankruptcy-1C8149698)

Don't feel bad, France, Detroit is about Bankrupt as well.

Not sure if anyone will collect it in a repo action when they file, however ... :E

Tableview
29th Jan 2013, 21:27
Shock, horror. A government minister speaks the truth.
Michel Sapin made the gaffe in a radio interview,
Gaffe ....... no ..... la verité .... must be a strange concept to the French.
Give him a medal ......... no ... guillotine ...........
Then blame it on someone else.

Airborne Aircrew
29th Jan 2013, 21:29
Does anyone really care about France? They always seem to be on the wrong end of things... One questions their decision making ability...

However, I will always tip my hat to one thing the French came up with...

The Foreign Legion... :D:D:D:D

Metro man
29th Jan 2013, 23:05
What's that comment about socialists running out of money ?

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

Margaret Thatcher

And she was right wasn't she ?

chuks
29th Jan 2013, 23:16
Rome came up with that idea, lots of foreign legions! And it worked very well, too! They even had foreign Emperors, four of them. If you look into it a bit, I think they even came up with what we now call "France," and except for a bit of unpleasantness in the Year 9, it would have included Germany, thus saving us a lot of trouble in our modern history.

Nah, the French have come up with cheese and chairs you cannot safely sit upon. That's about it, I think. Even the Peugeot 504 had to be styled by Italians.

sitigeltfel
30th Jan 2013, 05:49
Now that's what I call a balanced view - a comment from a paper on the right and a comment from a paper on the, er, um . . .

Why should balance be required when reporting the speakers words verbatim :confused:

Don't feel bad, France, Detroit is about Bankrupt as well. Serves then right for choosing a French phrase as their city name. ;)

SpringHeeledJack
30th Jan 2013, 05:51
I should imagine that most of the main countries in Europe, and a few elsewhere, are bankrupt if one were to look behind the curtains of fiscal trickery. Only in the last few weeks the German government has started a programme of re-patriating their foreign based stocks of physical gold back to the vaterland. Apparently the most troublesome issue is the US Fed who have been less than helpful in this matter, even though 'only' half is required at present. The German's stock at the Banque de France will be completely removed, maybe as a sign of mistrust over fiscal matters, or maybe just typical German pragmatism ?

Whichever country gets into problems, it won't bode well for any of the other 'healthy' economies that's for sure. Let us not gloat.



SHJ

Sunnyjohn
30th Jan 2013, 17:53
Why should balance be required when reporting the speakers words verbatim?
Quite. So why the need for three references?

radeng
30th Jan 2013, 17:56
Zimbabwe had $217....

BBC News - Zimbabwe says public account stood at $217 last week (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21257765)

Although believing anything the Zimbabwe government says is unwise, to put it mildly.

RJM
30th Jan 2013, 18:32
Well who's got all the money?

radeng
30th Jan 2013, 19:11
In Zim? Probably Mugabe and his cohorts, but it's all in Swiss bank accounts....

Blacksheep
30th Jan 2013, 19:34
During the cold spell I even saw a socialist with his hands in his own pockets! ;)

rgbrock1
30th Jan 2013, 19:34
chuks:

I see your little history lesson about the Romans and Germans in 9 AD went uncommented upon.

I believe you are referring to the Battle of Teutoburg Forest (Schlacht im Teutoburger Wald) when a band of German savages annihilated 3 Roman Legions along with the accompanying "auxiliaries"? (I believe the Roman legions were led by Varus?)

Yes, taught those pesky Romans not to mess with the German hordes didn't it?

tony draper
30th Jan 2013, 19:41
Whereas we oop North just scragged the 9th and kept quiet about it.:rolleyes:
We just disappeared them:E

rgbrock1
30th Jan 2013, 19:46
Ah, Tony D? Me thinks your history is a bit rusty my friend.

if you were referring to the German 9th Army in WWII they were done in by the Soviets, not by Britain. The remnants of the Wehrmacht's 9th Armee surrendered to the US Army after the Battle of Halbe in 1945 as they were retreating from Zhukov's 1st Belorussian Army just west of Frankfurt.

Or did you mean some other 9th?!!!

tony draper
30th Jan 2013, 19:50
Yes the Roman lost Ninth Legion,they came North and never went South again,Archeologists re still seeking their bones and their Eagle, but we int telling.:E

arcniz
31st Jan 2013, 00:50
.. the Roman lost Ninth Legion,they came North and never went South again...

More'n likely the Romanii were undone by a combination of the renowned climate and mouldy alien biome in Sunny-periods North Hadria and thereabouts, neither especially compatible with thermarium-craving Latins.

Doing endless laps amid the bogs and conjoining akin, anon, and anent the Midlands maids in their Northern and Southern territories likely set'em medfok aback as well.

Invasions and conquests of yore tended to work better East-West than South-North and vv. It is a constitutional thing, one might say. Global plagues often follow Sun-driven hiccubumps in wind patterns that swap air and critters wide across latitudes, carrying germs and parasites novel to the new localities as they do.

Goes around... comes around.

OFSO
31st Jan 2013, 09:06
"France Bankrupt" means they have no money in the public coffers, n'cest pas ? What about the private coffers ? What about all the French citoyens who are moving south across the border down here into Spain ? Other than hiding their French francs, sorry, French euros by buying land and paying local builders to build large villas for them on our mountainside, where will they keep the rest of their money ? Surely not France.....M. Hollande has a lot to answer for (if you are French, that is).

(By "a lot" I mean "everything" of course).

vulcanised
31st Jan 2013, 11:45
So, how can they afford Beckham?

AlpineSkier
31st Jan 2013, 13:31
PSG= Qatar royal family.

wings folded
31st Jan 2013, 14:20
A serious question, for which I do not have the answer but others might:


If all sovereign debts had to be repaid at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, in full, without offsets, which countries could and which countries couldn't?

SpringHeeledJack
31st Jan 2013, 14:47
If all sovereign debts had to be repaid at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, in full, without offsets, which countries could and which countries couldn't?

None. Unless of course future mineral rights could be collateralised or actual territory sold. There has been such an orgy of borrowing from a magic money chest that 'we' are in hock for at least the next 2 generations. I'd say that every 'player' on the world stage is all 'fur coat, no knickers' as an auntie of mine used to opine sniffily when observing certain women.


SHJ

wings folded
31st Jan 2013, 16:36
I'll amend my question slightly. Same question, but instead of "without offsets", substitute "without offsets and accruals".

G&T ice n slice
31st Jan 2013, 17:24
well, any country that has only issued debt in its own currency could pay off the entire debt instantly.... well... as instantly as it takes to crank up the printing presses.

Tableview
31st Jan 2013, 17:42
..... which is rather like Winston Churchill's quote about a country trying to tax its way out of debt being like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

Socialism is fine until A) you have to live under it, and b) other peoples' money runs out, or c) you're part of the pondlife that lives off it, rather than the productive people who pay for it.

wings folded
31st Jan 2013, 17:51
Not much of an answer to a serious question.

More a personal political view, already well known.

Anything useful to add?

G&T ice n slice
31st Jan 2013, 18:08
Sorry, didn't mean to upset you...

But if issued debt is in national currency then a government can instantly 'repay' the debt in exactly the way I mentioned.

It has been done rather frequently.

Perhaps you meant, who can repay debt without 'monetising' the outstanding amount and without destroying the entire economy?

Answer is - no-one other than perhaps Norway (with its oil fund) and Chile (with its copper fund) and possibly 1 or 2 other countries with large revenue flows, based on natural resources, that are stashed away in funds to be used in the future when said resource is exhausted. These example countries may (or indeed probably may not) have government issued debt to even out fluctuations in their revenues, however generally is not a structural basis

SpringHeeledJack
31st Jan 2013, 18:11
It's hard to answer such a question, as no-one knows the true state of affairs behind the curtain of governmental spin. I'd say every EU country is beyond saving, just dying a slow death because of all being lumped together, the weak ones pulling the strong ones down into the quicksand. So far Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, France, Italy have had to ask/demand/be helped by charities such as the IMF either openly or secretly and it's a good bet that if they are in trouble, then so are a few more. That even the UK still functions probably owes more to the old days and reputation on the world stage than the ever worsening dried out husk of reality.

Countries such as Norway and Sweden are likely more healthy than any other European lands as on the whole they didn't extend themselves with money they didn't possess as did all the others.



SHJ

Dushan
31st Jan 2013, 18:17
Well, it looks like they came up with a solution...

'Bankrupt' France makes non-residential buildings turn off lights | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/bankrupt-france-makes-non-residential-buildings-turn-off-lights/story-fndir2ev-1226565977048)

THE "bankrupt" French government yesterday set out a law forcing all non-residential buildings to turn off their lights at night in a bid to save over $900 million a year.

tony draper
31st Jan 2013, 18:26
I would imagine if push came to shove governments would just commandeer all the private saving of its citizens,just us poor folks mind,the rich would be ok,twas ever thus.
:rolleyes:

hval
31st Jan 2013, 18:28
RJM,

Well who's got all the money?

I checked my pockets and down the back of the sofas. I haven't got any of the money. Sorry for that.

Tableview
31st Jan 2013, 18:32
THE "bankrupt" French government yesterday set out a law forcing all non-residential buildings to turn off their lights at night in a bid to save over $900 million a year. That's going to make a fat difference. EdF is a state owned corporation, and about 20% of the electricity bill is tax anyway so the state gains both ways.

The problem with France is that not only is it financially bankrupt, it's also morally and intellectually bankrupt.

Dushan
31st Jan 2013, 18:36
Seems to me if you owned the means of production and sold the commodity, at profit, you would want more of the commodity consumed, not less. But what do I know, I left socialism when I was young.

wings folded
31st Jan 2013, 19:07
Sorry, didn't mean to upset you...



Actually, I was replying to tableview.

And still no pertinent answer.

Most countries are indebted, my question is which if any could survive repayment tomorrow morning requirements?

Davaar
31st Jan 2013, 19:21
Zut! A propos the propagandists on the SNP Porkies thread, je me demande whether or not the Scots will let the Froggies stay in the EU.

tony draper
31st Jan 2013, 19:37
Well the French could do what they usually do,take off their kecks take to the streets and scrag anybody with a pocket watch.
Sans culottes means without trousers dont it? never understood that bit.
:uhoh:

vulcanised
31st Jan 2013, 19:43
It's not just confined to Europe.

It increasingly appears that the USA could be in the merde to the tune of total EU debt.

tony draper
31st Jan 2013, 19:49
I have a idea,if all countries are in the same boat why dont all the governments just get together and cancel all dept, start again from scratch.
Didn't something like that happen in the plot of a Tom Clancy novel when the stock market went tango uniform?
:rolleyes:

SpringHeeledJack
31st Jan 2013, 19:52
It increasingly appears that the USA could be in the merde to the tune of total EU debt.

I read some article earlier today that stated if (when) interest rates start going back to historical norms, the US government will have to use 96% of it's income from the good citizens just to service the national debt interest without even touching the principle amount :ouch: Things are getting silly.....



SHJ

BenThere
31st Jan 2013, 20:06
That's truth, and why the Fed can't allow interest rates to rise.

They're caught in a trap of their own making.

The only solution is to reduce, and eventually eliminate deficit spending and begin to pay down the debt. That's why conservatives should be elected.

AlpineSkier
31st Jan 2013, 22:38
@FSL

Sans culottes means without trousers dont it?

No, it means without drawers/knickers, so the really poor people.

arcniz
1st Feb 2013, 12:28
I would imagine if push came to shove governments would just commandeer all the private saving of its citizens,just us poor folks mind,the rich would be ok,twas ever thus.

Surely some here remember the "new Francs" and Marks and Lire that became quite the rage as the dust began to settle on WW2? New being worth 1/100th or 1/1000th of the old, typically.

Just changing the names on the currency, colours of the notes, and recapturing old coinage for melting down is the standard drill. Not painless, but relatively normal and folk really have little choice but to go along.

The open admission of devaluation is too much for the "National Pride" of certain places, so fer them Inflation at a regular pace is just the thing.

Well-managed inflation is a cornerstone of the stability and general prosperity of the US economy for centuries now, and surely more going forward. But for all that, the buck has held its own against the backdrop of a world filled with troubled, rapacious and often financially incompetent governments. Whether the US belongs in the latter categories is up for discusssion, but likely it will soldier on due to sheer momentum and the lack of better choices.

Gold and silver, etc bugs will prove right, except for the inconvenience of having their throats slit in the dark of night (literally or metaphorically) sometime unexpected.

Economics has a way of sorting things out. Most folk prefer the aura of Growth and Progress as a substitute rationale for structural inflation, so they can keep on doing and saving and spending. Inflation is a form of public theft that keeps the other economic baggage somewhat synchronized and working much better than orgies of tax-raising and confiscation of property do, especially when those are accompanied by revolting people and business shrinkage as folks hunker down to await better times -- that really never will come.

Deja vu all over again.

RJM
1st Feb 2013, 14:10
No, it means without drawers/knickers, so the really poor people.

Or 'fur coat, no knickers' - not necessarily poor. :uhoh:

I read somewhere that the French economy relied on internal trade - one inefficient, state-subsidised producer trading with another. (and French builders ripping off Poms)

Tableview
1st Feb 2013, 14:24
the French economy relied on internal trade - one inefficient, state-subsidised producer trading with another. (and French builders ripping off Poms)

A very accurate assessment. It's also worth mentioning the massive amounts of money that French companies that have successfully gone global contribute, for example EdF, Carrefour, Renault/Peugeot/Citroen, Decathlon, nuclear energy, arms and munitions companies. Very easy when you have few scruples about whom you trade with.

stuckgear
2nd Feb 2013, 15:46
The problem with France is that not only is it financially bankrupt, it's also morally and intellectually bankrupt.

so it would seem..

Francois Hollande to remove word 'race' from French constitution - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/francois-hollande/9843241/Francois-Hollande-to-remove-word-race-from-French-constitution.html)


Francois Hollande is to have the word "race" removed from the French Constitution's guarantee that all citizens will be treated equally.


Fiddling while Paris burns !

1DC
2nd Feb 2013, 16:00
Where is Kag when you need him, he would be able to tell us how France will get to the top of the heap..

stuckgear
2nd Feb 2013, 17:35
Where is Kag when you need him, he would be able to tell us how France is at the top of the heap..

fixed that for you 1DC

1DC
2nd Feb 2013, 19:34
Thanks stuckgear, quite correct:p:p

RJM
2nd Feb 2013, 20:13
Very easy when you have few scruples about whom you trade with.

Mais au contraire! Ce n'est pas 'few scruples', c'est 'le difference'!

Brian Abraham
3rd Feb 2013, 00:06
For a financial illiterate, who in the hell is holding all this debt? Bangladesh?

baggersup
3rd Feb 2013, 00:14
For the U.S....China. (Well most of it anyway.)

Don't know for the UK.....anybody?

AlpineSkier
3rd Feb 2013, 03:42
Banks , insurance companies, pension funds and investment companies all over the place.

All of these are governed by rules in just what kind of investments they can invest: a common one will be bonds issued by a AAA rated country and probably with at least 5 years to run. There are many fewer AAA-rated than there used to be ( at least one agency has derated USA ) and different countries have - for whatever reason - tendencies to issue bonds for different periods. The UK has always (?) tended towards long-term (i.e. 10- 20 year ) bonds.

The market for government bonds increased considerably amongst British ( and European ? ) insurers following various financial crises 2000-2010 when they were required by financial regulators to decrease the amount of equities held to reduce risk ( and unfortunately returns ) for their investors.

arcniz
3rd Feb 2013, 05:27
THIS is an official report of US Treasury debt for periods in 2012 >> http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt)

Given that the current US debt level -on the books- is around $15 tril$, one calculates that US persons and institutions are holding $9.5 tril$ in one form or another. China and Japan are at the top of foreign holders at >$1.1 tril$ each

Is difficult to properly allocate domestic holdings of US Debt because quite a bit of the total is to be found in dragon-eating tail circular schemes, with the true holdership somewhat unclear. Reason for that is a premise which holds that some $4T of the debt is "temporary" and subject to reverse-tricks of accounting that will make it go away when the Economy returns to non-depression statistics and status. Skeptics would say that is "total bull". Optimists would say it might be "half-bull".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Ouroboros-simple.svg/330px-Ouroboros-simple.svg.png









'.

ORAC
3rd Feb 2013, 06:46
to be found in dragon-eating tail circular schemes Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros)

Andu
3rd Feb 2013, 07:13
I read some article earlier today that stated if (when) interest rates start going back to historical norms, the US government will have to use 96% of it's income from the good citizens just to service the national debt interest without even touching the principle amount.

If that concerns you, the short clip below is worth looking at.

United States Budget Dilemma.wmv - YouTube (http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/EW5IdwltaAc?rel=0)

vulcanised
3rd Feb 2013, 12:06
You never know. It might turn out that that $296 (?) Zim was reported as having in their account beats all the others.

Davaar
3rd Feb 2013, 13:30
France totally bankrupt

If France is bankrupt, we should all worry. French bankruptcy brings trouble to all. It, or She, was bankrupt in 1789. Poor Louis lost his head over that. Of course France brings trouble to all even when not bankrupt.

Capetonian
24th Aug 2013, 07:38
France cannot take any more taxes, government admits - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10262561/France-cannot-take-any-more-taxes-government-admits.html)

It looks as if Les Froggies have cooked ze goose zat lays ze golden oeuf!

France cannot take any more taxes, government admits

France's Socialist government has admitted that the country cannot cope with any further tax rises and promised no more hikes just days ahead of the country's largest ever tax bill.

The total tax pressure (taxes and social security contributions) will account for 46.3 per cent of GDP this year – a historic high – compared to 45 per cent in 2012.

The rich will see the highest rises, following Mr Hollande's decision to raise the rate to 45 per cent for those earning more than 150,000 euros – effectively 49 per cent due to an additional levy. A rise in wealth tax coupled with another one-off levy means more than 8,000 French people will pay a top marginal rate of 100 per cent on income this year.

“The government thought that by continually raising taxes, they could raise returns but they are now realising, rather belatedly, the error of their ways,” said Marc Touati, economist at ACDEFI consultancy. “Today in France, we are approaching 47 per cent of total tax pressure compared to GDP.
That’s the highest in the world,” he told The Daily Telegraph.

wiggy
24th Aug 2013, 08:54
Yep, the dreaded "avis d'impot" hit the doormat with an almighty thud a couple of days back......

It's going to be an interesting and no doubt lively autumn/winter.

PLovett
24th Aug 2013, 13:54
wiggy, are some folks dusting off the tumbrils and looking for the Bastille now?