Non type rated 737NG Low hour first officers

[UnemployedFO]

Has anyone got any more information on this opportunity?

It seems too good to be true, do jobs like this actually exist anymore?

The agency don't have a history of pilot recruitment and won't disclose any informations on it and which airline?

I think it's a scam and they just want details of pilots or maybe will be asking for money later down the line! Oh please pay us for a sim check, which then gets cancelled!

[captplaystation]

Whats the old saying ? " if it sounds too good to be true. . .it probably is" :hmm:

Well, no harm in applying & pursuing the "opportunity" until the 60,000$ question arrives. . . . let us know.

[Avenger]

By " low Hours" I assume they mean relatively, as they ask for an ATPL and glass cockpit, s either 1500hrs under the old system or at least 500 multi pilot multi crew.. or am I missing something?

[EGPF_guy]

Could it possibly be Thomson? They're a charter airline that operates 737s and I'm pretty sure they have a link to Canada...

But it does sound as if it could be too good to be true.

[Serenity]

What's a third officer??
Not like there's a cruise pilot on 737's.

[captplaystation]

A title invented to pay less than normal First Officer pay I would imagine. Other companies use Second Officer , or Junior First Officer.

Bottom line is that if you are checked out & operating in the RHS you are "First Officer" & if I pop my clogs, promoted to Captain. . . end of.

[Anunaki]

I don't know what airline it is but one thing is certain,by advertising it even more you have more and more chances to remain...Unemployed,unemployedFO :E apply to it,it wont hurt,then ask questions,now you've got yourself more competition,dogs eats dog....

[Yorkshire-Pud]

Last week these guys were touting the same job (by the sounds of it) for a salary of up to £45k (First Officers) so I guess the difference between 1st & 3rd Officers is about £10k

[Mr Good Cat]

UnemployedFO,

I'm going to assume you are an unemployed FO who is desperately looking for their first big break.

If so, then you are a complete fool.

If my assumption is not correct then I do apologise.

A bit uncalled for. We've all been new pilots looking for their first break. Sometimes you get your hopes up when you see what looks like the promised land. A few years in the industry gives you the experience to know that if it looks that good it is definitely a scam.

Good luck Unemployed FO I fully sympathise with your position and hope that some fortune comes your way eventually.

[woolyalan]

The £45k position is, allegedly, for a Type Rated FO. After speaking with the recruitment firm concerned they told me summer is spent in 1 of a few UK bases, and winter is spent in Canada. Sadly though, they were unable to tell me the name of their client.

[Skyhigh86]

Definetely sounds to me like Thomson.


real kick in the balls to the guys in the hold pool.......

[Centaurus]

Not like there's a cruise pilot on 737's

Some operators use a 737 three man crew on long duty sectors in the Pacific region. One real captain and two first officers of which one gets called Cruise captain to keep him happy. Wears 4 bars on his sector while the captain snoozes down the back and three bars when PNF. The union makes sure he gets paid an extra 15 grand a year. Not a bad rort if you can get away with it...

[321abc]

the airline is thomson,

i spoke to someone i know today that works for c&m recruitment and they told me that thomson came to them for 12 pilots, for which interviews have already been arranged.

the agency is continuing to advertise the vacancy to increase their CV database of pilots to effectively make it seem like they are a big agency and to get details of wannabe/low hour pilots :rolleyes:

[Boing7117]

Skyhigh86

It's not Thomson.

I've also spoken with the recruitment company. Sounds like an interesting opportunity.

[Mikehotel152]

Which other charter airline operates in the UK and Canada?

[McBruce]

You could make it even simpler MH!

How many leading UK charter airlines operate the NG?

[Skyhigh86]

So one person confirming it is thomson and another confirming its not thomson.....


I personally think it has to be.

Big kick in the nads for us hold poolers who initially all applied and interviewed for a full time position at Thomson last year.
Only to be told we had passed but could only be offered a temp position. A few months down the line and it would appear the job we applied for is being advertised once again albeit with some time spent in canada. Something that i would personally love to do.

Oh well, maybe Thomson isnt the shinier than shiny airline we all thought it was.

[eyealess]

UnemployedFO. Your not very savvy are you.....jeez

[Leg]

Well that's a helpful post... not, jeez to you too, you idiot :ugh:

UnemployedFO, ignore the bellends on here and good luck son. :ok:

[Pin Head]

It's not Thomson.

Just for what it's worth tcx operate on Canada as well but it's not them.

[JulietEchoTango]

I agree with LEG. Well said mate, how much savvy does it take to know the diff between your, you're and you are? :rolleyes:

[Mikehotel152]

Not Thomson, not Thomas Cook. Hmm, sounds like we're running out of possible airlines.

I don't believe it. As Skyhigh86 says, Thomson ballsed up their recruitment plans and then found many candidates turned down the derisory part time job offers leaving them a little short. 12 pilots sounds 'a little short'...

If you know who it is, Pin Head, just say. We are all friends here. ;)

[BlackandBrown]

I could be wrong but I think it's:

Last Minute Travel Deals | All inclusive Vacations | Vacation Packages | Discount Travel | Vacation Deals (http://www.sunwing.ca)

AVCANADA • View topic - Sunwing Adds a New Twist on Foreign Pilots (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79286)

[Boing7117]

Read the advert again MH / Skyhigh86

It doesn't say anything about it being a UK operator.

It's a company operating in Europe and Canada that is planning to, or already has bases in the UK.

I've done my bit of google searching and come up with my short list of who it might be, but since all will be revealed in the next few weeks if you're successful in your application, why ruin the surprise!?

And as for those who think this opportunity is far too good to be true, it shows just how far this industry has fallen when an opportunity offering a pilot a reasonable salary (albeit reduced) on the basis of a type rating included is viewed by many as too good to be true.

We've been brainwashed by the orange 'n the Irish brigade into believing the only way in to this industry, or climbing that greasy pole is to pay your own this, that, and the other and then accept a flexi contract or self employed pay-as-you-go "agreement" (best word I can think of because neither could be classed as a "deal")

Lets not forget the UK market is predominately cashing in on the training for LHS and RHS positions. And there are others in the world doing the same. But not EVERY airline is at it.

There's certainly no harm in applying and perhaps this might just be one of them rare opportunities that comes along once every blue moon, less cynicism required here until one is in possession of ALL the facts, and a bit more of an eyes wide open approach perhaps?

[Mikehotel152]

Boing717

Fair point. However, the recruitment agency is based in England, they state the job location is England, the remuneration is in £s and not €s and they're operating the 737NG. Yes, they advert mentions Europe and Canada. An advert for Ryanair might mention Europe and Africa but that doesn't mean it's Royal Air Maroc.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm posting. I have no real desire to apply. It's the fairly likely Thomson link that caught my eye. If it's not them, great. The Sunwings rumour looks even more 'interesting'.

[Turbavykas]

Someone put this to scare other airlines that there is a lack of pilots :)

[Skyhigh86]

If it doesnt turn out to be Thomson i will eat my (imaginary) pilots hat!

[CandM Aviation]

Hi Guys,

Im Carl. I am the Aviation & Technical specialist at C&M aviation and before even more :mad: is posted on here I thought id clear a few things up.

First of all Serenity where the bloody hell have you got the info this is a third officer postion ? We have 16 Vacancies at present. Eight are for experienced 737 F/Os and the other Eight are for Low hour pilots. We are also new to Flight crew recruitment (This is why I came onboard) but we did already have a huge database of candidates as we previously recruited in the Aviation sector.

The deal is awesome with the carrier but Boeing actually provide the type rating for the carrier as an agreement when the aircraft were purchased. Basically it costs the carrier nothing for the type rating as it was agreed when A/C were purchased that T/R would be provided.

Yorkshire- Pud - There are two different ads - One for experienced paying 42 - 45k and low hour 32-37k basic.

I am unfortunately not allowed to confirm the client but being in the Thomson holdpool myself I can confirm there will be no kicks in the balls for anyone there as it is not Thomson !

321 ABC is posting complete untrue idiotic information. The only two people in the Aviation division are myself and my Partner Lesley who have not disclosed this information to anybody. We also already have a database of 20,000 so increasing the database and wasting time is not our number one priority.

Basically I would just like to ask. If you want to apply ! apply, its real, there are postions there and quite a few more with this carrier in the pipeline. If your not interested then stop posting a load of :mad:

Boeing 7117 - Thankyou for your post. A pilot with an inch of maturity and positive outlook. There are still good guys out there !

One final note if you are invited to interview (Will find out on the 22nd) We will inform of the carrier straight away. I have been in the same postion guys applying for carriers in the a** end of europe at 3 am and we completely understand most peoples current situation but we are not allowed to disclose who it as at the moment as they want to avoid being bombarded with 1000's of CV's

[Stick35]

Thank you to clear things up.:ok:

Good luck for ones who are invited.

cheerz

[ehwatezedoing]

It seems too good to be true, do jobs like this actually exist anymore

It may sounds good to you but it is really not at all for us, part of the Canadian aviation community.

As BlackandBrown I am assuming it is for Sunwing.
Right or wrong! Mr Carl is always open to "clear things up" :suspect:
All in all, I would highly recommend reading this "hot" topic on Avcanada and a few others running about this subject. This will put things back into perspective.

AVCANADA • View topic - Sunwing to hire foreigners using the LMO method (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84549)

[Mikehotel152]

So there it is, must be Thomson then. :p

[McBruce]

Why post its with a leading UK charter airline? I link the UK location since the job advertisement has you based in the UK for a period through out the year. Thomson is the only leading UK charter airline that operate the NG. I'm sorry but you have generated this mess yourself with facts that point this towards a leading carrier and now you are saying its not.

A deal with Sunwings would see the pilots operate Thomson flights in the summer, so in my opinion those two are related, and you would know this, hence the deal between the two locations (and perhaps trying to sell the job on the back of TOMs reputation), my moneys on this one! I guess we will find out if yous guys are credible on the 22nd.

On the hold pool with TOM, I agree with you, if its Sunwings it won't affect the current poolers, if its just to accommodate the reciprocal agreement, outside of that then its whole new can of worms.

[Anunaki]

"will find out on the 22nd" so that's the date people will get their golden call or PFO emails?? Like I said to UnemployedFO it won't hurt to apply so I guess I'll pop an application up,good luck :ok:

[uchy]

Hello, somebody can tell me how to apply for this position?
Because last week I sent my cv to Lesley........but I have not gotten any reply...
thank s

[magicmick]

I spoke to Carl earlier this week regarding the opportunity, like many I was suspicious that it was too good to be true, I must have read the job notification a dozen times then got my wife to re-read to find the catch. As mentioned in an earlier post this is more an indication as to how bad the situation has got recently that we regard such an opportunity with suspicion. When I spoke to Carl he told me pretty much everything that he has written in his earlier post, while I don't know him personally he seemed to be an articulate, personable and genuine bloke who I enjoyed talking to.

As far as who the operator is, the opportunity to be rated on a modern swept wing jet free of charge to the cadet with the chance to work in the UK and Canada is too good to be missed. Obviously at some stage during the selection process it will become clear who the operator is and if you are lucky enough to get that far and don't want to work for them then just withdraw your application and let someone else in.

If after all this you're still suspicious and don't think that it's for you then don't apply.

Uchy, I emailed my CV direct to Carl and have not received a reply either, I suspect if they acknowledged every application that they received they would still be sending out acknowledgement when the cadets start their rating courses.

[CandM Aviation]

Hi all again !

I can completely understand everyones frustrations as we are mostly in the same boat in a still shockingly bad market for guys without type ratings and newbies but jumping to every conclusion as a rather good package is on offer is not the way things should be.

From the negative posts it is quite frustrating to read and I hope you do speak to a few ladies and gents who have dealt with us as we do try to have a chat and build up a relationship with our candidates as well as clients. I have personally been in the same situation as most low hour and non tr pilots so we 100% understand and I never ever forget where I started. If there's a few tips we can give on the CV. We will give it ! Not charge £25 for a re-writing service like others. If we don't think your suitable for a position. We will tell you and discuss how we still may be able to help. If there's a position going somewhere we do not deal with. We will tell you !

Basically. For the negative posters and everyone. Give us a call. Have a chat, drop by the manchester office for a brew ! We don't bite : - ) we will try to help !

Were not saying we will guarantee every pilot on the planet a position. But
we know how disheartening the job market can be so we will try to point you in the right direction.

Looking forward to seeing the posts on the 22nd !

One does apologize if there are any grammar/spelling mistakes ! Sending this from a blackberry with my sausage fingers is extrordinarily hard.

[Breakthesilence]

With thousands CVs received every day, it's normal to expect nothing back.

Honestly, I applied for the Experienced F/O position (I hold 4300 hours on 737) hoping for a reply but as I read here on pprune that a lot of CVs were sent, I became aware of this advertisement (the "low hour" one) and realized that the amount of CVs might have been huge :}

[Serenity]

Carl,

Only asked what the role was as it states "third officer" at the top header of your own advert. :confused:

Recruiter C & M Recruitment Ltd Posted16 January 2013,

Ref BBBH32780,

Contact Carl Rafferty Location England Sector Aircraft,

Flight Crew Job Role Pilot, Co-Pilot, First Officer, Second Officer, Third Officer

[Boing7117]

If you look at the C&M website and how the search criteria is performed you'd notice that there are a myriad of options for flight crew, eg co-pilot, pilot, first officer, second officer etc.

It seems to me when C&M get a new role to advertise, they'll put it under the flight crew categories it best applies to. Since Flight crew encompasses all of the above options, it's possible to find this role under "third officer". A closer inspection of the actual role reveals that it's a First Officer role.

Nothing complicated here as far as I'm concerned.

[Yorkshire-Pud]

SkyHigh86

I have a selection of Real Pilot Hats, you're quite welcome to have your pick of them. I'll remove any braiding, bit too crunchy. All I ask is the video is made widely available to view !!
:D

[The Cleaner]

Is there a closing date to send your cv in by ??

[Skyhigh86]

Afraid any dining of hats will undertaken in private:p

[jyp0109AP321]

Honestly, I applied at first sight.

FO position
Working in England and Canada(maybe?)
32k-37k
Free type rating.

Can you think of a better deal than this one? I think not.
So, stop whining and start applying.

And good luck to all who's invited on the 22nd.

[wingsaseagles]

Hi,

I agree, in the current climate it is a great opportunity! :D

I heard that the position was 4.5 months in Canada, and the rest in the UK. Anyone heard which months exactly??

[Firestorm]

I expect that it's northern hemisphere winter months. Anything to get away from the rain!

[Breakthesilence]

We are next to the deadline guys, tomorrow should be the great day eheh :E

[gabino86]

Has anybody heard anything yet?

[The Cleaner]

Any interview invites of PFO's yet???

[F09K]

Nope , still waiting! :)

[purmus]

Just spoke to a nice lady in the Manchester branch. Apparently Carl is not in the office right now so I guess he's done for the weekend. Don't know if that means the offers have already been made or not

[bluk]

Maybe he will write something in this topic :D
My e-mail inbox also clear....

[Skyhigh86]

So are you allowed to say the airlines name yet? Or has there been a gagging order placed?

[The Cleaner]

Well no one knows if anyone's heard yet, good or bad, I certainly haven't. Would hope to be told either way, so the mystery continues.....

[BurnDownTheRumormill]

I missed the boat for applying myself but I spoke briefly with one guy who got the lucky call today, no idea if there's more to come or they contact all the successful applicants already. Unfortunately I didn't get the name of the operator from him, only that the next stage is a written test and then some kind of interview... I'm rubbish with the details, sorry guys. Best of luck to all who applied.

[Boing7117]

Not sure I believe you.

[BurnDownTheRumormill]

That's wise given most of the stuff I read here! Just wanted to fill people in as I know how heart wrenching it can be staring at your phone all day. Just to clarify, the guy is already type-rated, so maybe this has an impact on when you hear.

[BurnDownTheRumormill]

Considering the whole ad was clearly a scam

Care to elaborate?

[CandM Aviation]

Once again unrealistic comments and complete crap from supposebly “professional pilots“

And you wonder why some of you are not flying ?

First of all. 44 succesful candidates were contacted today and another 8 which due to being flooded with calls we were unable to contact will be contacted on Monday.

Airlines do not use agencies ? Hmm, Jet2 are using zenon just to name one !

The carrier has been disclosed to successful candidates however will not be to unsuccesful. Why ? Because the carrier would be flooded by applications from unsuccesful applicants. Seeing as most “professionals“ on here apart from a select few have no care and disgusting attitudes anyway I really can't see why it matters so much to you.

Although you may think your username protects you and makes you anonymous, people do tell us who you are !

On a much better note. Well done to all succesfull candidates who were of such a high caliber, on a positive note for quite a few of the unsuccesful candidates. Some of you were fantastic and will be most definately considered when recruitment reopens in around 8 weeks.

Finally. For the comment about a “scam“. Please justify your comment. We do not take money from candidates, we would not waste our time answering 150+ calls a day for the fun of it and we certainly would not waste in excess of £5000 for advertising to mess people around.

Once again well done to the successful guys ! Such a shame the positives are over shadowed by a complete bunch of idiots.

[StanSmith]

thats a very defensive comment... I dont know one professional recruitment agency who would go as far to post on a forum, but wish everybody the best who has applied. sounds a very good job offer and for those who applied, good luck.

[seymoreskye]

I think this is completely genuine and a real relief to see light shining through a long dark tunnel.

I am not quite there yet with my training but will definitely keep my eye on C and M once I have finished. Credit to them for coming on here and clearing up some ridiculous accusations.

Well done to all who have made it.

CANDM, I know you can not say much but what should guys like myself who finish after summer do, Maybe register or just keep an eye on the website?

[McBruce]

So was it for TUI Belgium/sunwings?

[CandM Aviation]

Hi Mike,

We mainly deal with corporate but as you can see we do get airline roles as well.

Good luck with the rest of your training.

[CandM Aviation]

McBruce.

Read the last post by myself.

[McBruce]

Yes, perhaps you won't divulge it but maybe others will! Pilots are a curious bunch!

Anyway my money is on Tui Belgium / Sunwing. Tui Belgium have a few 737s arrive this summer, factfile on their website, your recruitment numbers tie with their net fleet increase. I can only see it as a UK domicile with arrangements in place to commute for taxation/social security savings, given the rumour that the new owner appears to be a MOL fanboy.

[CandM Aviation]

If they choose to divugle it then so be it !

However my boss is also my partner so I would get more than a slap on the wrist if I let it slip !

I really wish people would be more positive on here though. Its the first positive news for a while on the low hour scene and especially with them paying for the TR.

It is also highly frustrating, a few have been so negative on here rather than actually thinking there are still some good guys around yet if Susi air are taking on in the a** end of indonesia or Ryanair want you to pay £25k+ everyone thinks nothing of It.

This industry has become so so wrong! Everyone expects :mad: so when something brilliant comes along it is automically a scam !

[Anunaki]

Yeah,I applied too,wasn't one of the 44 lucky ones...at least I tried.It was a good opportunity,let's hope there are more like that on their way as it is a good sign.Good job CandM :ok:

[Honiley]

A supposed agency comes on PPRuNe, with an aggressive few postings, using bad language and bad grammar - not even close to professional conduct, ever seen any of the major pilot agencies comment on here and in such in manner?

Although you may think your username protects you and makes you anonymous, people do tell us who you are !

That childish comment alone should bring on the warning bells! Which simply cannot be true...

And yet 44 people still haven't come forward onto PPRuNe and said they were successful, I don't think that's ever happened before! Considering the advert alone generated 4 pages!

Be careful guys - this is not professional or realistic, the Mods on this site are awesome at noticing these things and I hope someone is following this up to uncover this scam...

[Pin Head]

Guys.

I agree with what has been said. Give the agency a break. It is good news that may draw some movement. It's sound all real from the start. Trust me on that one.

Ps will unsuccessful candidates be notified?

[Nas]

I agree with C & M.

It's quite evident that there are “pilots” on here that make unfounded comments that are untrue, quite unfair and unnecessarily offensive. If one is to target an individual or group based on bogus information for a sustained period it’s rational you could get “feedback”.

No comments were childish. Not all, but the majority here use pseudonyms. This does protect your identity. Otherwise the comments made would not be ill-informed, quite so abrasive or indeed rude, as you would be directly connected and identified.

You do not have the facts to say it is a scam. To base judgment on writing style or grammar is laughable. That’s childish.

If people listen to “other people” and avoid opportunities because you think they’re “scams”, those individuals will never gain employment.

I say go for everything. Don’t listen to the naysayers. Send out your emails. Wait for replies. Then make up your own mind. Lots of guys are looking for their first job. C&M have responded.
It’s authentic.

[fade to grey]

I'm with HON. A few " unprofessional" aggressive remarks from a supposed recruitment agency. CAE Parc this isn't .

I think people should remain sceptical until it is proven one way or another.

[RexBanner]

C & M, it is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make that this is less than legit given the unusual circumstances shrouded in utter secrecy. If it is legit, then what would bother you in the slightest about people commenting on a public forum to the contrary when, presumably, the candidates concerned who have been "successful" now have all the information from you to make up their minds accordingly?

Coming on here with a rant about unprofessionalism coupled with veiled threats and bad language does nothing to indicate any professionalism on your part. As you have seen above, this only adds to the skepticism. I can just imagine the interview now "can you give an example of a time in your life when you have had to deal with conflict?" then "can you identify who RexBanner is on pprune?"

[Avenger]

Did I miss something? an earlier post by C+M suggested 16 Vacancies, but we seem to have 52 successful applicants? why? Perhaps the 52 will be asked to pay a "sim evaluation fee" if so, don't go!
On another matter, of course airlines use agencies.. most of the new THY guys are from agencies, perhaps not in Botswana!

[RexBanner]

If the comments are actionable and there is legitimacy behind this then the natural thing for a reputable company with its practices called into question to do would be to draw the attention of the mods (who already probably have an eye on it) to remove the "libellous" content. Since this has not been done in close to a month now, this kind of tells its own story.

[yeoman]

IF the planned recipient of these candidates is Sunwing then I would be interested to know how either Sunwing or the agency, depending on who is actually going to employ them plan to get foreign pilots the necessary permits to work in Canada? Sunpac, the Canadian union is running a very effective campaign to veto the use of foreign pilots.

Assuming that bit works out, I would also be intrigued to know how these guys will fit into a UK operation? Given that SWG is part of TUI and the only UK part of TUI is TOM, here are a few potentials for you:

SWG pilots are heavily in dispute with their management right now over a whole raft of issues. I suspect this is management trying to bypass the union. TOM has a reciprocal agreement with SWG whereby a number of TOM pilots operate in Canada over their busy winter and a number of SWG pilots operate in the UK over the UK busy summer. The number is matched.

TOM management would dearly love to have contract pilots do this work in summer. That is not going to happen again. If SWG think they are going to recruit contract pilots and then offload them to the UK in numbers in excess of what TOM send to Canada in the winter they are VERY badly mistaken. If TOM management think they will be able to do that they are equally VERY badly mistaken. To be absolutely honest, I don't think TOM have any hand in this at all and if they even know about it, I'd be somewhat interested because the position has been made very clear regarding external pilots doing TOM flying, as have the implications of trying to do it.

If these guys are not contract but permanent employees then the matched numbers argument still stands. SWG could well find themselves over borne in the quiet summer because TOM will not be accepting any more SWG lines of flying than the reciprocal agreement. There may be some flex in that on the back of the 787 debacle but that is a) another story and b) exceptional circumstances.

Finally, I'm really quite confused as to why a chap who professes to be in the TOM hold pool would be involved in a process that, given recently past management form, has the potential to directly affect adversely how long he spends in that pool?

[CandM Aviation]

Guys and Girls,

Most of this is completely uncalled for. I really can't see why people come out with such malicious and shocking comments.

I am not going to put other agencies down but we do a hell of a lot more for our candidates than most and having been in completely same situation as most of you during the recession I personally along with my colleagues really try to help the low hour bunch as well as experienced.

Nobody will be charged any simulator fees or anything at all. 52 have been successful at this stage to go to interview etc. But obviously there will be further cuts from evaluation tests and sim checks.

If we can help with your CV, We will. If we hear any info of positions outside of our clients, We will let you know. We do not ask for any moneys at all from our candidates at any stage as we collect our fee from the operator. We are even currently looking at purchasing a 737 FBPT for our candidates to use before going to interview, Which will be free of charge. So how some of you can post rediculous comments on here is shocking.

We have not reported anything to the moderators as your all free to say whatever you like. We live in a democracy so freedom of speech is paramount.

Anyway, This will be our last post on here as investing time in our candidates is much more important that spending time on here replying to malicious and damaging rumours.

[Turbavykas]

Can you post what qualifications you were looking for? How to improve CV what to learn so to qualify for future positions?

[Breakthesilence]

Hi Carl,

I just want to kindly ask if those 52 succesful guys are all for the Low Hours advertisement or include those for the Experienced one as well (I applied for the experienced).

Thank you for your help.

[Pin Head]

So what sort of experience did the thanks but no thanks guys had? Or the lucky few.

[Yorkshire-Pud]

Wow - I'm amazed at how un-professional this outfit (C&M) are.

Let the 'lucky' (?) 52 hope that their selection is done with more professionalism.

If this 'spokesman' for C&M worked for me I'd have shown him the door right about the same time he posted his rants for the first time. Clearly clueless to the consequences for C&M if (when ?) the airline get wind of his outbursts

How arrogant to think that, just because you are able to offer jobs on behalf of an Airline that you don't even work for you are qualified to talk to professional pilots, whatever their experience, the way you have.

[Another]

@ Carl,

thanks for the updates here, appreciate it!

[BurnDownTheRumormill]

Still no word on the operator(s)?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Interesting post number 78 on the previous page.

The high ground gets a bit shaky when you fire off a complaint reporting the thread less than 30 minutes later. No problem for everyone at the Towers - we'd bought loads of popcorn several days ago.

Rob

[fade to grey]

Ha,
And yet still the lemmings come...

[WMB]

So who got an interview?????

[Honiley]

And still no-one comes on here, excited to claim they were successful!

I'm amazed at the quite frankly naive comments supporting C&M! I guess the desperate will cling to anything!

Thankfully, and lets hope, we've seen his last posting!

[yeoman]

I am aware of at least one going for interview. They have been told a variety if things about working in the UK. See my earlier post.

Popcorn is fattening BTW.

[Skyhigh86]

Things seem to be getting very interesting indeed!

Guess the big question is whether it is TOM or not?

It comes down to whether TOM management are willing to bypass those in the hold pool or on a summer contract?
Also the fact that this whole thing is veiled in complete secrecy says to me that whichever airline is doing this knows the moral ramifications of what they are undertaking. Seems strange going for an interview with no idea who it is they are potentially working for!
"Free type rating"- now Thomson deduct money over three years for non type rated guys so perhaps that doesn't add up.
Also combined with the fact that "Carl" is supposedly in the Thomson hold pool seems strange to me if he was indeed recruiting for people to bypass himself. That is unless some sort of offer is on the table once recruitment is done:8(conjecture at best though)

I think mcbruces guess is also pretty good. However if it was TUI Belgium why on earth are they using an agency when applications are open on their website! Also seems like they require Dutch and French!


Who knows, only time will tell. My money's still on TOM though :rolleyes:

[yeoman]

Very poorly placed money IMHO. See my earlier post.

[fade to grey]

I'm not being funny, but would TOM , part of Tui, a giant international travel empire really use a tiny recruitment agency staffed by this aggressive wannabe pilot and his missus , really ?

Yeah, HON is right - they'd be 250hr guys fighting each other to get on here and tell us how they would be flying an airliner soon...

[Artie Fufkin]

What a fascinating thread!

A "major UK charter airline" that flies the NG and offers time in Canada, that isn't Thomson :confused::confused::confused:

A person who claims to work for the agency involved coming on to a tawdry on-line chat room to insult and threaten anyone who expresses any reasonable level of scepticism.

50+ alleged successful candidates all keeping completely quiet about what is, in this day and age, an unbelievably good job offer.

And the whole process veiled in total secrecy.

I'm also enjoying the popcorn, but itching for the curtain to this intriguing drama to find out the final twist in the plot!

[McBruce]

it can only be for Sunwings with the UK part of he contract doing the recipracol agreement for TOM?

Yeo obviously knows something we all don't :E

Assuming this is a real offer which I'm beginning to doubt now! There's a reason the core information was kept a secret.....

[fade to grey]

Sadly, for all the guys trying to get the first job, the old phrase -

" if it looks to be too good to be true, it is " may apply.
I hope they prove me wrong.

I wonder how many CVs I could harvest if I advertised a deal like this

[Skyhigh86]

I hope I'm wrong I really do!

Secrecy could well be to quell down those joining on a 70% and fixed term contract, or am I just paranoid?


It's just everything points to Thomson and TUI!

[Libertine Winno]

Whether or not you agree if this is indeed too good to be true, forgive my ignorance but I struggle to see how or why the recruitment agency would advertise a bogus job?

I know in the normal world of recruitment it happens, in order to generate a load of CV's and potential candidates for other jobs, but surely any aviation recruitment agency is swamped with CV's from low hours pilots as it is!

If the aim is to dupe people into paying for a sim check for a non existent job, which is of course ultimately fraud, it seems a pretty big risk to be taking for what would be a relatively small sum of money?

Happy to be enlightened, of course...!

[yeoman]

Yeoman knows nothing more than he has written here for the benefit of those able to read between the lines!:}

[_Rhys]

Best of luck to anyone taking the same technical test that I had. :ugh:

[JB007]

This is fun!!!! So, we have our first potential candidate to come forward in _Rhys. I don't suppose for one moment he/she will divulge anymore?!?

I'm with all the sceptics: too good to be true or complete scam! Coupled with C&M posting which just about killed his/it's credibility...as this is the industry I work in, I'd be very happy to be proved wrong...

TOM made me redundant in 2010, I'd be very disappointed if they've come to this...

[HappyMan737]

I don't see what all the fuss is about?

If you have been selected to take the Tech exam then well done.

If not then get off you high horses and apply somewhere else, to be honest it seems like the majority of you would rather just slate anything than say nothing. Boo Hoo that you didn't get it, or don' t have a job at all.

The company must have sorted the license issue otherwise UK pilots wouldn't be able to work in Canada - do you really think they would have overlooked this fairly important detail?

And as for those taking the tech exam, do you really feel that they have time to come on here and quell the rumours - they are probably studying their asses off to get the chance to interview for the best job opportunity this side of the millennium.

Rant over

[fade to grey]

Hmmm, suspicious happy man .One post and it's a pro C and M rant...
I think you'll find us experienced employed pilots are the ones doing the warning here.
52 successful candidates.....not one on pprune. Utter bull.

If you think this is the best job opp , you have been sniffing glue which would cancel your medical I feel.

I'm sure the mods have the tech to trace your IP just to make certain.

[B737900er]

Again, someone wet behind the ears telling experienced guys how its ment to be done, love it. And on that note most of these agency workers are in their 20's and haven't got a clue about the industry.

:ugh:

[clunk1001]

I agree with fade-to-grey.

What's more, I'm going to create several new Pprune users right now who will also agree with us.

:ok:

[fade to grey]

......I agree with clunk. As does my friend Happy man 757 , and his good pal Happy man 146....

Those successful candidates must still be on the pis@ celebrating their good fortune ...

[McBruce]

Apparently UK bases on offer are LGW, BHX, MAN, NCL....

Although still highly skeptical at the lack of candidates coming forward with any information!

[Skyhigh86]

So C and M and yeoman still standing by that its not thomson?

If it looks like dog poo, smells like dog poo and tastes like dog poo; what is it ?

[Torque Tonight]

Always grateful for 15 year olds issuing professional pilot employment advice. :D

I've seen enough scams and dodgy offers in aviation to know which side of the fence I sit on regarding this recruitment.

[Firestorm]

There are an awful lot of awful opinions in this thread.

Details for this contract are sketchy to say the least, but if you are unemployed, be you experienced or not, why would you not apply? If you don't apply you won't have the opportunity to make an informed judgement about whether the job is worth your while or not. Does it really matter at this stage who the employer is?

If you want the career in an airline then chuck your hat in the ring, and get in the game. If not then I don't understand what you hope to gain by taking cheap shots at everyone else.

I'm sure you all want to know if I applied or not. It's none of your business :E

[boeingbus2002]

No request has been made yet for any money for either selection, sim evaluation, training or rating. So I don't really see how it is a scam. (This may change of course later!)
Until then, surely it's best to think of it as interview preparation which doesn't hurt.
For those already flying, there are bound to be better offers and this may well be an insult to you.
For those working in McD's this is the magic open door!

[Tiempoby]

Candidates were told the airline is Sunwing under contract with them and not the agency.

Tech tests were done earlier in the week and were apparently almost impossible!

[Stick35]

I also do not understand why all this negativity. Just apply, wait and see. You don't lose anything with that.

[yeoman]

Sky High

Please quit trying to lump me in with C and M, for the public record, I abhor any outfit or individual that seeks to profit from the aspirations of young pilots. I spend a great deal of my time trying to prevent both that and companies from being party to it, TOM in particular, as you spend spouting :mad: on here. As yet there is no evidence to suggest C and M are in any way shady and no evidence to suggest that TOM is involved and that includes asking the question directly of the TOM manager concerned.:rolleyes:

As for forgetting important details viz work permits, maybe one of the TOM pilots currently on secondment to Sunwing in Canada may care to comment on the vagaries of the process? :E

And here's a clue. I think I am probably about as well qualified to talk on the involvement of TOM or otherwise as anyone here. Have a quick squint at earlier discussions on TOM recruitment and join up the dots, about the only tech questionnaire some here would appear capable of, that's if your bored with painting by numbers.:ugh:

For those still struggling with it, maybe some kind soul from TOM could help them with it?:oh:

[Another]

with all the positive comments abound,
if i were offered an interview the very first thing i'd do would be to post here.
:rolleyes:

[Artie Fufkin]

Presumably the successful ones are remembering Carl's comments;Although you may think your username protects you and makes you anonymous, people do tell us who you are !
Laughable and patently false as these words are, if I was trying to bag a job and been told not to disclose anything, I would probably err on the side of caution too.

[Tiempoby]

I thought every was eager to know the airline, now it's on here and nobody has anything to say?

[Avenger]

Maybe because none of the "candidates" have come forward to inspire the rest of the community and quash the rumours! Ok this is a " rumour forum" but as Fade to Grey observes....:)

[Tiempoby]

In that case I didn't make myself clear enough, I am one of them. And McBruce's list of bases is correct with the addition of Glasgow

[Avenger]

Perhaps it was your comment " tech tests were done etc" implied the info was given to you by a third party! apparently!

[Artie Fufkin]

I thought every was eager to know the airline, now it's on here and nobody has anything to say?


Oh, go on then;

Was Carl able to explain why he advertised Sunwing as "a major UK charter airline"?

Do you believe his explanation of the need for secrecy, or do you think there may be other reasons why they want this kept quiet?

Best of luck with the on going selection :ok:

[yeoman]

At last!

Someone has finally worked it out. A recruitment agency can say what it wants. Tesco can even say "Finest Quality Beef".

And then comes reality.

And it takes a man with English as his second language to do it. For that reason I think we can forgive his use of the word "anger" where perhaps "apoplexy" would have been better?

If you Sir are in fact a Madame, I apologise for my use of he / his and congratulate you on your perception.

[Beakor]

Yeoman said in post 144:

For those still struggling with it, maybe some kind soul from TOM could help them with it?

Pleased to help.

Yeoman is a Thomson pilot and probably one of the best placed in the company outside senior management to know what he's talking about on this topic.

For a flavour on the troubles in Canada with foreign labour have another read of the link on post 24 of this thread posted by Black and Brown. I suspect that getting work permits for non Canadian nationals may not be as simple as the agency suggest. I'd further suggest that if the UK carrier for summer work is supposed to be Thomson then that will be extremely problematic if the intention is to go outside the current reciprocal agreement with Sunwing.

Of course the UK carrier may not be Thomson and the work permit situation may well be all sorted. If so though, why all the secrecy?

[yeoman]

Cheers Beakor.:ok:

Anyone with property to let should not get too excited.:ugh:

[Centreline747]

I seem to recall that a few years ago, an ex-colleague of mine mentioned that the now defunct XL Airways had a contract with Sunwings, that crew were sent/volunteered to Canada on a deal with these people for 4 months, so maybe it is a similar sort of deal. Good luck all, and the very best to the guys who apply and are successful. If they are told to keep it under their hat then so be it!!! Who are we to speculate and criticise!!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Check out the AvCanada forums.

An incendiary topic over there with Canadian pilots.

Rob

[yeoman]

Not exactly flame retardant over here either. All that wood that people can't see for the trees.:{

[CrazyEddy]

Has anyone who took the "Technical Exam" last week heard any results yet????

[Phalange]

The airline has pulled out of the deal.

[crashbang737]

Hi,

I hope you are well.

I am sending this email with regret with unfortunate news in respect to Sunwing. Unfortunately the contract has been cancelled. I can only apologise at this stage, after going through the technical tests and getting through to the next stage, for this unforseen circumstance to happen.

I have been waiting for an update over the last few days, but with the difficulties with different time zones etc, its been difficult to catch up with the client and gain further details.

I do not have much detail as to why, but within the industry its forever changing, with aircraft delays, business needs etc, but should I find out any further details to when they will be recruiting again, I will certainly be in contact with everyone with an update. This is not likely to change for the next 8 weeks at least, so again all I can do is apologise and update you as and when required.

I hope you can appreciate that our phone lines have been off the hook for several weeks now, and I,m sure there will be many questions that everyone has, but apart from what I have just explained, there are no further details at hand, but as and when I get updates of any changes, I will be in contact straight away.

I thank everyone for your time and patience and wish you look for the future. Should I have any further suitable positions, I will be in contact in due course.

I would of liked to of telephoned everyone in person to let you know, but as you can imagine the number of applicants involved made this very difficult with it being a long process, and as soon as one hears, everyone else hears on the grapevine, which is why I have sent everyone an email as soon as I heard.

Apologies again as I know this can happen several times within the industry and has recently been happening with other airlines but I wish you all the luck in the future.


Lesley Mcdermott
Manager - Aviation Division

DDI: 0161 8710398
web: C&M Recruitment Consultancy (http://www.candm.co.uk)
email: [email protected]



Don't keep a good thing to yourself
We grow our business through referrals, so please don't keep us to yourself. If you think we're
doing a good job and know of someone who would benefit from our services, please pass on
their name and number to us and we promise to follow it up. Many thanks.

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

[Phalange]

Yup. Airline have cancelled contract with agent...shrouded in yet more mystery!

[Tiempoby]

Well nothing ventured nothing gained.

I must say I found the communication from C&M puzzling at times. All in all a confusing and tragically short recruitment drive.

Maybe Sunwings saw Carl's posts on here and pulled the contract? I suppose we will never know.

[Skyhigh86]

Hmm the plot thickens,

I guess we will never find out who that mystery 737ng operator with bases in Manchester, Belfast, Newcastle, Birmingham, Glasgow and Gatwick was.

[Phalange]

Well when did they find out the contract had been cancelled? The entire proceeding has been shrouded in mystery and the fact that Lesley cannot be contacted today is a tad odd. I believe both Lesley and Carl have known this news for a while.

[Phalange]

So what were they hoping to do here? I don't understand what anyone has gained.

[yeoman]

To answer your questions Phalange.

1. Make a bit if money.

2. Nothing gained other than a serious credibility gap, a bunch of hopes dashed again and a couple of names to attach to it all, one of whom was even smart enough to let slip his future employer and the other of which was smart enough to ask people to spread the word about their reputation in an email saying, sorry, it's all gone Pete Tong.

That's the trouble with hair brained plans where airline HR Departments try to get cute. They seldom survive first contact with reality and inconsequential details get missed. Things like Industrial Agreements.

To those who thought their luck had changed, I genuinely feel for you. That's easy to say of course, I've got a job. In Thomson we have invested a considerable amount of effort in trying to break the cycle whereby availability of cash is a determining factor in getting a job. On a limited basis this has already worked and some 20 + pilots are just joining now. Sadly for those without Type Ratings, these were all Type Rated guys but we now have the mechanism in place to recruit on ability from across the spectrum of applicants. I don't know when but be patient, it has to happen at some point. Again, easy to say because patience doesn't pay bills.

We currently recruit using an in house team that includes Line Pilots. I don't see that changing any time soon.

On a final note, it seems no one lost money here so we should I suppose give C&M credit for that. Next time, do the research. Airlines will try recruiting through agencies for all sorts of reasons and NONE of them are good for our profession. Most unions are vigorously opposed and many airlines have agreements addressing the matter. Going around them will usually end in tears.

[fade to grey]

What a shambles. If any decent airline uses this outfit for its recruitment they deserve everything they get.
And to see supposedly intelligent trained professionals falling over themselves to grasp this nettle is pitiful and embarrassing .

[Tiempoby]

It's worth noting that a quick google search for our beloved and ranting recruitment consultant (Google cache is very useful when people have just recently removed their Linkedin pages). Shows him as having worked for 3 different airlines (one of which I have the pleasure of working for) and 1 medivac company. Quite a fruitful career for someone aged 21/22.

You've made quite a name for yourself in such a short space of time and you should well consider that your CV may well land on one of our desks one day.

Also, you ought to get rid of your myspace page, I'm certain I was a moron at 18 but at least I could spell.

[JW411]

"I would of liked to of telephoned everyone........"

Does he mean: "I would have liked to have telephoned everyone"?

[AMS]

Carl Rafferty (C&M Consultant) hahah -

when I asked about his background - he stated that he was a TRI for Hellas etc.. and that he has then lost his medical so he was working for C&M.

It did make me wonder how, but he is clearly a little dreamer, moron and a numpty.

He is right up there with the Iraqi Information Minister! LOL

:ok:

[Skyhigh86]

"Hi I'm Carl. A young but matured individual with a positive out look on life and heaps of Aviation Knowledge."
;From linkedin



from myspace details;

Occupation: Training pilot
Income: £75,000 to £100,000


:}

Couldnt resist some digging on this im afraid.

[Vone Rotate]

21 and a TRI.....wow!

[Skyhigh86]

I know, scratching my head wandering where it all went wrong for me:ugh:

[clunk1001]

heaps of Aviation Knowledge

I smell heaps of something, but it certainly isn't knowledge.

[fade to grey]

Another " Walt", aviation attracts them like poo attracts flies .

[fade to grey]

MySpace , interests -
"alchocol (sic), but not in a sweaty tramp way or a pissed up scouser ".

If this guys involved in airline flying, I'm chuck Yeager .
Got his PPL in 2009 according to the Blackpool local rag.

[crashbang737]

Hi,

I hope you are well.

I just wanted to send you an email to let you know that the Aviation Division is closing for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately at this present time, due to staff leaving within the Aviation Division, and contracts being cancelled, there is a shortage of work within this sector and bigger demands within other areas of the business.

C&M Recruitment have been recruiting for over 15 years within the travel sector, so this does not mean in any way, that should any Aviation contract occur, we will not be dealing with it. Should we have any suitable positions within the Aviation Sector, I will certainly be dealing with this and contact you in the future, but at this moment in time, this is where we stand.

I wanted to inform you of this change, as I did not want to waste any of your time, waiting for updates on cancelled contracts as I don’t see any changes for the foreseeable furture, but of course if there was, I would be in contact. I wanted to be honest with you, so there are no false hopes, thinking this may change in a months time, as its highly unlikely, so I wish you well and all the luck in finding your perfect role.

I would like to thank you for your time and patience and once again can only apologise for the unfortunate circumstances.

I wish you all the best for the future.

Lesley Mcdermott


DDI: 0161 8710398
web: C&M Recruitment Consultancy (http://www.candm.co.uk)
email: [email protected]

[OutsideCAS]

due to staff leaving within the Aviation Division

Does this mean that Carl has left already? or perhaps pushed?

[StopStart]

Well, I've enjoyed this, thanks everyone.

The naïveté displayed by young Carl in mixing business with internets was rather dazzling. I predicted (to myself obviously) from his first post that this would not end well.

Remember kids, never mix business with Pprune :hmm:

[PPRuNe Towers]

A lot of correspondence was going on in the background.

Carl wrote alleging the posts from him and the company were fake and he wanted information on the poster and would be going to the police. I suggested that with such a serious allegation of passing off that the police really should be involved.

Carl continued to demand information to take to the police and I assured him I would be happy to talk directly to them once he pressed a formal complaint. He continued to demand information but suddenly lost interest when I pointed out that the email addresses and IP locations would cause the police to ask him some pretty searching questions.

It was shortly after that the disappointed and regretful mails started going out to applicants.

Rob

[JB007]

Good grief! Well, didn't this turn out to be quite the story!

[cgwhitemonk11]

I've watched this thread from a distance the whole time, just.... wow.... :uhoh:

I'm lucky I have a flying job and did not apply but I can imagine the disappointment felt by many when they realized this Carl guy wasted their time and their hopes.

:mad:

I for one will remember his name.

[High-Flyer2]

I applied to this mob myself thinking what a brilliant opening here but as you can all see it fell on its arse, I can't say I'm disappointed it's just like all the long line of applications filled out or C.V's sent nothing much has materialised from them, then yesterday I seen an advert by Sunwing looking for 80 Canadian licenced/residents for the same position that was withdrawn :ugh: I suppose it's a case of if you don't try you don't get.

[Vone Rotate]

What a daft thing to do! Although clearly not a TRI at 21 if he was looking to get into this industry I'm sure he has probably blown his chances now as his name is well known for all the wrong reasons.

I'm struggling to see what was to be gained? Maybe a sim assessment at a cost to the applicant to make a profit? £300 x 52 is not to be sniffed at!

What really p****ed me off was it was all a play on the hearts of honest people looking for that first break. Low blow C&M....

[Artie Fufkin]

Anyone else left wondering what really happened here?

All very odd.

[Torque Tonight]

Hate to say I told you so but...

I've seen enough scams and dodgy offers in aviation to know which side of the fence I sit on regarding this recruitment

... I told you so. This one smelled like a week old prawn kebab from the outset. I make a point of not doing business with anyone who cannot spell or cannot form a valid sentence in the English language. This policy filters out 99% of the idiots, scammers, kids, criminals, sharks and timewasters. Throw in a bit of 'too good to be true' and this 'recruitment' had bells on it.

I wouldn't be shocked to discover that this bedroom recruitment consultancy was simply 'sucker harvesting' and in due course you'll be offered a new amazing opportunity (with fees attached).

[magicmick]

Like many people I applied and was shortlisted only to have my hopes dashed but no money had changed hands, just a minimal amount of time and effort invested on my part so it’s not all bad. I have no personal axe to grind with either Carl or C&M, in case anyone is interested the following out of office reply has been on Carls C&M email address:

I am no longer with the buiness and will be returning to flying, but should you have any queries or questions, please contact ************. Should there be any outstanding recruitment drives/opportunities on-going, ****** will keep you updates as and when necessary. I wish you all a successful future.


So if you believe the first line then perhaps he could be coming to a flight deck near you soon, he really needs to learn how to spell business too.

[StopStart]

I think there might have been a genuine recruitment opportunity here although young Carl may have over-egged the pudding somewhat. I suspect however that a combination of factors led to his downfall.

The fact that he has now "moved on" would very strongly suggest that his vocal and deliciously unprofessional involvement & interaction with this forum did not go unnoticed by others, including I suspect the company looking for pilots. If I was an airline recruiter I would not wish to be involved and/or associated with the petulant comments he was making on here.

I think people really have no idea just how many people & institutions read and are aware of ongoing subjects on Pprune. Poorly thought out comments on here will bite you on the arse one day.

[OutsideCAS]

On face value it appears (as said above) that CR was over-egging it. I would suspect that he perhaps was making noises maybe in the company of C&M to bolster his own knowledge/ego etc. as a fountain of all knowledge in all things commercial aviation? just a suspicion. Anyway, according to his facebook page, he is now "on holiday" in sunnier climes.

[fade to grey]

" Returning to flying ". What a :mad:.
Flying what ? Microsoft flight sim in a darkened room .....
And getting your PPL at 17 isn't that unusual either Karl, I did that too.

Damage limitation from Lesley, but I'd wager that agency's name will stick in many minds for all the wrong reasons.

[Vone Rotate]

He's returning to his TRI position ;)

[Wirbelsturm]

He's returning to his TRI position http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

God help us all. :ugh:

[centropy]

There were the exact numbers Carl mentioned to me as the reason for the recruitment (with Boeing doing the type ratings as part of the deal):

Tui Travel says it has agreed to buy 60 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, with an option to buy a further 90 of the same model. << BBC News - Tui Travel to buy 60 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22727238)

Maybe we'll see another advert ;)

[DeltaT]

The first plane of those doesn't arrive until 2018

[WX Man]

I don't get it. C&M Recruitment looks pukker. I remember telephoning them and asking to speak to Carl, who apparently "wasn't at his desk right now".

Not that it matters... I never even got an invitation to take the tests. I started the whole process with very little aspiration.

[centropy]

There was no sarcasm face! But weirdly the numbers where spot on so assume someone jumped the gun with the dates.

[trancada]

SUNEXPRESS Germany is opening vacancies.

Anyone knows their working conditions?