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View Full Version : Where would you choose to go to live?


Coliandro
28th Jan 2013, 20:23
Between Dublin and Munich, if you were single in your late 20s, with limited German but very fluent English?

Thanks

G-CPTN
28th Jan 2013, 20:37
Is it an either/or or anywhere in between?

Also it depends if you need to travel (to work).

If working, does your employer have different terms of remuneration depending on your place of residence? (allowances etc)

moosp
28th Jan 2013, 20:54
it also depends on your nationality. If your are Irish, give another country a go. If German, see what it is like to live in a very different country.

One of the smartest moves people do in life is to go and live and work in another country. It allows you to see your own country in an objective way, and is very valuable for that.

Coliandro
28th Jan 2013, 21:42
I have a job offer...2 different companies, but both great companies to work for.
Salary pretty much the same (after taxes)...
I'm neither Irish nor German...I'm from Southern Europe...

Fox3WheresMyBanana
28th Jan 2013, 21:52
If you live to work, go to Germany. If you work to live, go to Ireland.

G-CPTN
28th Jan 2013, 21:52
At your age, consider the facilities for a social life and the possibility of acquiring a partner (and, maybe, a family).

For some, the ability to 'return home' (for visits) might regulate the choice (for example, you can drive directly from Munich to Southern Europe).

AlpineSkier
28th Jan 2013, 22:07
Can't agree with Foxy Banana. Munich is the city where most Germans would like to live and that is more for the city and life-style, nearby Alps etc than the opportunity to work for BMW: Germans dedication to work is exaggerated. It is also the most expensive city to rent accommodation.

German income-tax rates stop in the low 40% area but health insurance is very expensive and could add another 8% to deductions. Don't know about Ireland.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
28th Jan 2013, 22:11
Fair enough. My experiences and friends are North Germany.

G-CPTN
28th Jan 2013, 22:29
Rather than responding to random opinions (and some facts) from people who might be biased because of their circumstances, you should do a proper analysis of your wants and needs, rating them as musts where appropriate.

The Kepner Tregoe decision-making analysis is a sound method (provided you accurately define your parameters and obtain factual answers to your queries).

How to use the Kepner Tregoe decision making model (http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/kepner-tregoe-decision-making.html)

As an example, I took a job overseas at a salary that was twice the amount of my existing salary.

What I failed to allow for was that this attracted an extremely high rate of income tax such that it wasn't viable for my new employer to give me more money as it all (95%) disappeared in tax. Housing was much cheaper, but cars were very expensive (180% tax), so we lived in luxurious surroundings but owned a meagre vehicle.

As it happened I decided to keep my property in the UK, which turned out to be best as it increased significantly in value whilst property in the new location was subject to negative inflation (deflation) and, had I transferred my equity, I would have been greatly disadvantaged when I returned to the UK.

Of course you may not be faced with that, but these are the sort of questions you must address if your stay becomes extended (though not permanent).

G-CPTN
28th Jan 2013, 22:39
Don't worry about the local language. If you have already become proficient in English you will find acquiring German by immersion no problem.

I had to acquire a difficult Scandinavian language, which, although it took longer than anticipated, I did succeed with (with the help that most of my coworkers were able to speak English). Many Germans are also competent in English (I have worked in Southern Germany) so you should manage easily.

mike-wsm
28th Jan 2013, 22:46
Definitely Munchen, great place to live and work, really good companies, great transport system, plenty of access to the Great Outdoors, and the Deutsches Museum has an inexhaustible stock of exhibits and archives.

Go there for sure, work hard, learn the language, build up that cv......

....then look to California next.:ok:

G-CPTN
28th Jan 2013, 23:00
If you are from Southern Europe, you might find the rigidity of German society a bit of a cultural shock, whilst the Irish 'laid-backness' might be more akin to what you are accustomed to.

That isn't to say that the German way isn't better - at least you know where you stand.

As an example, I was working in a facility which required security. Passes had to be carried and shown to gain access (it was long before electronic swipe cards). A new security guard recognised the big chief's car and waved it through without waiting to see the pass. The guard was immediately dismissed.

That's how the Germans (at least some of them) operate . . .

I have another story about a pass-out for a vehicle which I had offered before realising that I needed to refuel. The guard suggested that rather than reversing I should pull forward and he would let me back in. When I returned to the gate he insisted that I needed a fresh pass (as I had used the previous one). There was nobody other than myself and the guard on the whole 500 acre site as everyone else had gone home for the weekend.

It took a lot of negotiation (and an interview with the Commandant on the Monday - no tea no biccies) to avoid me being stuck miles from anywhere for the rest of the weekend.

sisemen
29th Jan 2013, 00:45
Between Dublin and Munich......east about or west about?

radeng
29th Jan 2013, 12:02
G-CPTN, have you read Jerome K. Jerome's 'Three men on the Bummel'? A very similar situation is in that....... Don't know about Munich, but Mainz is definitely very much cheaper than Dublin, and I would also say the same about Berlin.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2013, 12:37
Munich. No hesitation there. Although I was somewhat fluent in German when I arrived plenty of people in the Munich Umgebung speak English so that was very helpful.

Plus, most importantly, Munich has the Oktoberfest. What more could one ask for in life, eh?

http://www.fermentinginpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/oktoberfest_girl.jpg

Yodel-lay-eeee-hooooo

G-CPTN
29th Jan 2013, 14:02
I wasn't going to mention the Oktoberfest, as that seemed somewhat unfair, especially as Dublin has St Patrick's Day.

The solution to my vehicle pass situation was that I was allowed to use one intended for a fire engine - they were allowed in without a pass, but required a pass when they exited, so several pre-signed passes were kept by the security guards. :ugh:

Sieg Heil!

OFSO
29th Jan 2013, 14:56
Regarding the ridgidity of German society, yes, absolutely agree.

However the rigidity ranges from very stiff (i.e. in Hessen) to a bit bendy (i.e. in Bavaria), so much so that as an honourary Hesse I was VERY taken aback on being addressed by complete strangers as "Du" in southern Bavaria (where ridgidity gets more flaccid) - note southern: I spent time in northern Bavaria and this would not have happened there.

Anway: I'd take Germany I would. But don't make jokes, about anything. And take every opportunity you are offered.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2013, 15:03
OFSO:

Interesting comments. When I started out in my endeavor to be assimilated into German culture (or be denied!) I did so in Frankfurt a.M. i.e., Hesse. And, yes, very rigid in those parts indeed. For the most part. Ever been to Sachsenhausen? There the rigidity vanishes. Even if for the evening!

Then I migrated down to Bayern, Muenchen to be precise. And noted, upon arrival, an total lack of rigidity. The Bavarians really know how to relax. Even we former American military members are, more or less, welcomed with open arms.

Of the two places I lived I much preferred Muenchen. For many reasons. (The Bavarian women had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Nope. Nothing. )

http://static.autoblog.nl/images/wp/A1GP%20Zandvoort%20Bavaria%20babes2.jpg

AlpineSkier
29th Jan 2013, 15:03
] Sieg Heil!

A Brit at his inimitable best. I'm sure you were enormously appreciated wherever you went.

Tableview
29th Jan 2013, 15:09
As is frequently pointed out, even by my German friends, Ze Tcherman Tchoke ist kein Laughing Matter.

The benefit of Dublin is that most of the beautiful women you will meet there are Latvian or Polish, and that's not to say that Ireeand doesn't have beautiful women, it certainly does, but they don't seem to frequent Dublin, at least not the places I go to!

And for my money, Northern Ireland beats the Republic ........ but both are superb.

G-CPTN
29th Jan 2013, 15:15
I'm sure you fitted in wonderfully wherever you went.

My brother married a German and my cousin is married to a Beamter . . .

I have been familiar with things German since my first visits in the 1950s - not to mention East Germany in 1989 and working in Southern Germany until my retirement.

bluecode
29th Jan 2013, 15:28
Dublin in my case but that's because I'm from there and want to back and I'm too old for Munich. So I'm badly biased. Having said that Munich does have it's attractions. But I'll make the case for Dublin.

On the other hand as Fox3 say if you live to work, Germany, work to live Dublin. On the other hand, it's no coincidence so many of the big multinationals headquarter in Dublin. So just like the cliche about Germans being humourless and relentless workers so the opposite cliche of Irish people being feckless hard drinking party animals.........actually it's completely true but that doesn't mean we don't work hard. That I know from experience working for some hardline capitalist companies. I worked for one famous company for a while. Eventually they moved the operation to the Far East. But soon regretted it. The Irish operation was more efficient.

Dublin is a big city but often quite a small town in character. It's a lot more cosmopolitain these days. Even with the recession, you'll hear many languages spoken on the streets not to mention every colour under the sun. So if you like to mix with your own, you'll have no problem. If you want to avoid them, you can do that too.

Problems now are that the rental market is quite strong because no one can buy. The cost of living has gone down otherwise although taxes are up but I believe still not the worst. Whichever country you pick you taxes will end up in Germany!:E Our real government is in Berlin!

Ireland of course is also quite small so if you like to get around nothing is too far away. Plus you can get out of the country fast too.

I think ultimately you need to decide what you're looking for in the job. Essentially if you enjoy a good social life and time with friends. Dublin is the choice.

Tableview
29th Jan 2013, 15:28
G-CPTN : I don't think 'Sieg Heil' type comments are acceptable at any time or under any circumstances to German people.

I am extremely politically incorrect and abrasive, but that oversteps even my limit.

OFSO
29th Jan 2013, 15:31
Ever been to Sachsenhausen?

nein, aber..... walk out of Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, walk down Kaiserstrasse, look for Meier Gust'ls Bayerische Zell (it was easy to spot in my time, as there were frequently prostitutes fighting outside), go in, upstairs, sit and order a litre and watch the action. It is (or was) a lot less dangerous than it appeared at first sight. Although American servicemen, unused to strong beer, or Japanese tourists, unused to any beer, frequently got into trouble.

Tip: take two girls, one to dance with and one to placate the other customers.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2013, 15:39
OFSO:

I know the place you speak of. I was there several times.
As a serviceman. Drinking strong beer. Getting shit-faced.
Acting up. Until the MP's came along. And took us home!!!

G-CPTN
29th Jan 2013, 16:09
I don't think 'Sieg Heil' type comments are acceptable at any time or under any circumstances to German people. I guess that I got to know some unusual Germans (some of whom still hanker after National Socialism). Not all choose to deny the past.

PS I love Germany - always have done since my very first visit as a teenager.

Tableview
29th Jan 2013, 16:22
PS I love Germany - always have done since my very first visit as a teenager.

Me too (and I speak German) which is why I find your comment so bizarre and distasteful. It's not about denying the past, it's about throwing it in their faces - two very different things.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2013, 17:09
Linerider:

Have I seen German women? Well, having lived there for an extensive period of time I did have the fortune or having dated a few here and there.

They are amazing women. Period.

Bavarian food? Scrumptious. Just like Bavarian women.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Weisswurst.jpg/647px-Weisswurst.jpg


Followed by Bavarian-brewed Bier:

http://beerandvideogames.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/spaten-lager.jpg

Slasher
29th Jan 2013, 17:49
I guess that I got to know some unusual Germans....

..Me too CPTN. In my time I've had some expat German FOs in the RHS and
they could take a joke. Good sense of humor too once you broke the PC ice.

rgbrock1
29th Jan 2013, 17:56
Slasher:

During the happy days (my time spent in the Vaterland) i had some German FOs in the RHS - of my car - as well!

Like Heidi and Petra here!

http://acidcow.com/pics/20091005/girls_of_oktoberfest_15.jpg

G-CPTN
29th Jan 2013, 17:56
I guess that I got to know some unusual Germans . . .

I met a jeweller and his wife (we had dinner together).

I noticed her ring - it was an exact copy of Princess Diana's engagement ring (that he had made himself).

OFSO
29th Jan 2013, 18:16
Advice for young men going to Germany:

Coliandro, within the first few days - a week at the most - of arriving in der Vaterland, you must commit some outrageous act of drunken high-spirits which will brand you for ever in the minds of your German colleagues as a person of distinction. In many ways, this is the modern equivalent of the Schläger or student's duelling fight (and subsequent scarring).

One thing is important: this must not involve women, yours or anyone elses, as then things tend to get nasty. Anyway, you have to live in Germany for more than seven days to get your licence to come to grips with German women. CAT-3 is recommended for winter grappling in Hessen.

The most outrageous act I ever saw performed by an Englishman was in "der Kleines Parliament", Darmstadt, where a colleague performed the Dance of the Flaming A*seholes, which had never before* been seen in Darmstadt. In view of the serving wench's reaction, our colleague was banned for ever (i.e. for the rest of the month) from the "Kleines" by the Landlord, but xxx enjoyed fame and kudos for the rest of his life in Darmstadt (which wasn't long as he was hit by a car crossing the Rheinestrasse about six weeks later).

Still, Pete, you're not forgotten.

* Or since, or if it has nobody told me. But I believe things got quieter after I left, not there was any connection with my departure.

Mikehotel152
29th Jan 2013, 19:30
If you like the 1970s, green fields and rain, expensive shops and a corrupt government, try Ireland.

Half tongue in cheek.

Personally, I think Germany is a far more interesting place, culturally and environmentally.

toffeez
29th Jan 2013, 19:42
"I'd take Germany I would. But don't make jokes, about anything."

I've never lived in Germany, but I've worked with a mixed group of Belgians, French, English, Russians, Italians, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch ... I could go on.

The ones one could most easily joke with, including (DON'T MENTION) the war were the Germans. Followed by the Russians.

G-CPTN
29th Jan 2013, 19:59
When eating out in rural Germany, I used to go to inns where I had had a good meal, then I decided to try and find one where the meal was poor - never managed (though Ruhetag often caught me out).

I think I only ever had one disappointing meal which was at a non-German restaurant in inner-city Frankfurt (near the Hauptbahnhof), though there was the restaurant in East Germany that closed over lunchtime!

Slasher
30th Jan 2013, 06:06
Quoting from my previous post -

Good sense of humor too once you broke the PC ice.


One funny German FO did send me this once. Would've posted
it earlier but it took a while digging it up....


U_Z6tv7cQmM

They really can take a joke!

sitigeltfel
30th Jan 2013, 06:31
German humour?

While ordering lunch in a rural German restaurant a few years ago we were struggling to understand what the dish of the day was. A local diner from the next table saw our predicament, stood up, flapped his arms and started quacking.

We got the message!

AlpineSkier
30th Jan 2013, 06:44
my cousin is married to a Beamter

Well, I'm not sure if one boasts about that in polite society ( Beamte, I would say, in this context )


I have been familiar with things German since my first visits in the 1950s

Including the fact that your little phrase there would certainly have got you arrested (if not necessarily charged ) ?

Coliandro
30th Jan 2013, 11:36
From the point of view of the "general mentality" of the people...I'd prefer Dublin.

From the point of view of...everything else...I'd prefer Munich.

My biggest concern is the distance between Dublin and the home town where my parents live (who are getting older and in a few years might need some kind of assistance)...currently there are 2 weekly direct flights with Aer Lingus, but only between April and October. If I do a simulation of a booking for May, a return flight costs me 200 Euros...for August, it's already 300 Euros...

For the rest of the year I need at a minimum to go through London/Paris/Germany to get back to my parents.

What if...
- There's another vulcano crisis?
- Aer Lingus cuts this fleeble route?

I can already imagine myself enjoying Ireland, but after 1 or 2 years, leaving the place to move back to continental Europe (probably not Germany). And this would not be good for anybody, for my career, etc...

bluecode
30th Jan 2013, 15:39
Munich - no contest at all. Not really.

Reasons to live in Munich or Dublin

1) Germany has a stronger economy and brighter future.
Strongest in Europe but that's hardly the point. As for a brighter future. Not neccessarily.

2) Tall, hot looking German women (that should be number 1 on the list really). Seriously, have you seen German women!!!
Plenty of them in Dublin. Also French, Spanish, Italian, Polish and the rest of Eastern Europe. Seriously have you seen Polish women? Oh and Irish women plenty of great looking Irish girls.

3) Great social life
Better social life.

4) Friendly people
Friendlier than Irish people? I don't think so.

5) Most young Germans speak excellent English
I think most Irish have a basic grasp of English.:hmm:

6) Opportunity to learn another language
He already speaks another language

7) Clean, efficient and everything works as it should
Ditto for the most part. Ireland isn't some chaotic third world country.

8) Bavarian food
Available in Dublin too along with many other cuisines.

Reasons to live in Ireland:

1) Guinness
Only the tourists and old men drink Guinness.

AlpineSkier
30th Jan 2013, 17:24
bluecode

What growth industries/major companies does Dublin host ? Don't think finance is going anywhere ever again (in Dublin ), Guinness doesn't employ many higher-level workers.

Munich: electrical engineering and electronics ( Siemens )
car-manufacturer - BMW
aeronautics - Dornier
medical - Fresenius
software - many medium-sized companies

Really, I would have to say that Ireland is falling back to what it was 20 years ago: a small economy on the edge of Europe - not somewhere to seek a future. I think the current anger among many countries about international tax-dodgers like Google etc, will bring about some kind of international standard tax-rate for this type of company which is likely to eliminate the advantage that Ireland currently has for this type of company with its very low corporate tax-rate.

Weather far, far more enjoyable

radeng
30th Jan 2013, 17:37
Alpine Skier,

You have forgotten Rohde and Schwarz in your big electronics companies in Munich. They are big, and in Munich, probably as big as Siemens as far as electronics as opposed to electrical engineering is concerned.

Isn't there MBB, or whatever they are now called, also in Munich?

Coliandro
30th Jan 2013, 17:41
AlpineSkier...to be fair, Ireland has many European headquarters of massive IT companies (Google, Microsoft, etc...), and also Pharmaceutical companies. And they aren't there ONLY for the tax advantages.

So, it creates and exports "something"...
And "on the paper" the pro-capita GDP is still one of the highest in the world, the average salary is still higher than the average German salary (Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, and if I'd be an unskilled foreign worker it's the last country in Europe where I'd look for a job).

cavortingcheetah
30th Jan 2013, 18:26
You compare the capital city of the historical and magnificent Bavaria, situated in Europe's greatest and most cultured country, with an insignificant city development in a country where only the grass grows green and Finnegan's Wake, which makes more sense in the Chinese into which it has just been translated, counts as an achievement? The friendliness of the population is a myth. The Irish have more chips upon their shoulders than there are pieces of the true cross masquerading as toothpicks throughout the monasteries and churches of Europe. The Germans have no such yokes other than the odd guest worker and those which have been imposed upon them by the warped hypocrisy of the victors of past conflicts. The rewards of learning German are manifest, not least in the ability to listen to Wagner in the original and one can always derive a certain remote if maudlin humour from the speeches of he who was inaugurated as chancellor eighty years ago today.
(Even though he was a stinky little Austrian who sneaked his German citizenship out of the Braunschweigers).

rgbrock1
30th Jan 2013, 18:37
cavorting.

Not to mention that in learning German one also has the privilege of reading Faust, or anything by Goethe for that matter, in the native language. :ok:

G-CPTN
30th Jan 2013, 18:40
My biggest concern is the distance between Dublin and the home town where my parents live (who are getting older and in a few years might need some kind of assistance)...currently there are 2 weekly direct flights with Aer Lingus, but only between April and October. If I do a simulation of a booking for May, a return flight costs me 200 Euros...for August, it's already 300 Euros...

For the rest of the year I need at a minimum to go through London/Paris/Germany to get back to my parents.

Sounds like the decision is obvious.

As you concede, your parents will not get any younger, and, if successful, your stay could become permanent.

From Munich you could probably do the trip after work on a Friday (maybe with an early finish) and return on the Sunday evening.

Factor in the possibility of your parents wanting to visit you and it's possibly a no-contest.

AlpineSkier
30th Jan 2013, 19:48
Coliandro

Ireland has many European headquarters of massive IT companies (Google, Microsoft, etc...)

Those companies do very little and call the place the European HQ in order to justify the money-laundering.

Germany does have minimum wage in some industries.

The paper GDP is completely unimportant if it is hugely inflated just by payments from Germany/France/UK passing through to the Bahamas or similar.

radeng

I just named the first companies that came to mind - was meant to be indicative, not necessarily exhaustive but you are right about those companies you name.

arcniz
31st Jan 2013, 01:46
cavorting.

Not to mention that in learning German one also has the privilege of reading Faust, or anything by Goethe for that matter, in the native language.

And again, and again, and again. Sorta like the MBenz apprentices who start by making a piston-rod out of a rectangle of steel.... using a file.


---

It's your life and your choices... needless to say.

Distance = money. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it does not.

The Krauts want to grab you - turn you into an economically productive attached unit, and keep you hypnotically busy until you drop.

The Irish want to tell you to p*ss off, every moment of the day, but you can do whatever the H you want with your immortal bits... and good riddance.

G-CPTN
31st Jan 2013, 11:49
Germany recalls Hitler's rise to power - The Irish Times - Wed, Jan 30, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0130/breaking59.html)