"Destroyed in Seconds" Packet and Phantom query

[Krystal n chips]

Watching, in part, the above programme last night two interesting clips were shown


The first was a Packet being used for fire / crash data collection. Whilst it was modified for the test, there appeared to be "windows" cut outs in the booms and I am curious as to why these were there.

The next was a US Navy F-4 which crashed shortly, very shortly in fact, after take-off with both crew ejecting safely.

The reason for the crash was given as a technician ( not a term I would use in this case ) who had left a riveting tool...hardly a small item, in the aircraft and this had jammed the controls.

If anybody has a link to the film of the F-4 accident, or better still, a copy of the accident report in which FOD was identified as being the causal factor, then I would appreciate these being made available please given that I have a valid Flght Safety related use concerning the potential of FOD / tool control as demonstrated on the clip.

[ORAC]

This F-4 crash perhaps?

br1poSaupOs

[Krystal n chips]

ORAC ! ....that's the one in question.....many thanks for sourcing the video clip,,,:ok:

As I say, a copy of the accident report confirming the FOD / riveting tool as the causal factor would be much appreciated, should anybody have a link, as I can then use it to educate accordingly.

[Brian Abraham]

From Chipmunk Is Beautiful [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-385363.html)

Posted by manderson, 29th Nov 2010, 16:23
I was unfortunately rather closely involved in the loss VH-FTA in 1968.

At the time I was doing my Instructor Rating with Bud "Spike" Jennings an ex WWII fighter pilot. Late the previous day we took FTA out for a session of aerobatics and spinning doing up to eight rotations in both directions recovering with no trouble at all.
The next morning Arthur Kell took out a student pilot for a PPL test usually involving one simple two turn spin and recovery, but as is well known, the aircraft did not recover and spun into the ground. Arthur was an ex RAF bomber pilot whose main claim to fame was that he took over Mickey Martin's Lancaster, Guy Gibson's second in command, when he finished his tour in the Dam Buster squadron after the famous raid and he subsequently flew RAF Brittanias.

For a time the three remaining Chipmunks (RSK, RCP & RSQ) were grounded then all fitted with the anti-spin strakes. Spike and I then had the dubious honour of taking RSQ, I think, for a series of spinning tests; this time with parachutes and again trouble free results.

Who knows if the twenty cent coin came from our pockets! The investigation showed that the forward movement of the elevators had been impaired by the coin but every time pressure was released and reapplied it popped out; Arthur would have been trying everything. Quite simply put the Chipmunk does a bad flat spin very occasionally; this is mainly due to D.H. Mosquito design of the tailplane where the forward set rudder is blanketed in spin. This is shown by the fact that nothing happens until the last inch or so of forward movement of the control column when it starts to bite. The strakes definitely helped by giving a more nose down attitude in the spin and if anybody had subsequently removed these on RSK they were crazy! More recent photos of RSK show them in place.

Beware Chipmunks do sometimes bite.On a side note we had a S-2 Tracker where a riveting dolly was found in one wing many years and flight hours after manufacture. Can't recall if it caused a flight control problem or was found during a routine inspection.

[Krystal n chips]

Brian,

Thanks for that example.:ok:

The reason I am after the accident report, of possible, of the F-4 however is this.

Videos alone simply show the event. Accident reports alone tend to be dry reading.

Combine the two however and the message regarding the ramifications of FOD becomes self evident to the target audience...which is the intention.

[johnfairr]

The F4 video looks remarkably like ones we were shown at Finningley on my Nav course in 1973. There were two videos, both featuring F4s.

The first was meant to show the retard capabilities of ordinance on a bridge. As the voice over said "Instead we see 4 successful ejections when the retard ordinance did not retard . . . . " as the two F4s were hit by non-retarded explosive effect of munitions.

The second one, as featured by ORAC was I seem to recall, taken at the McD plant at St Louis where the camera was there to record the first (?) flight of the UK F4M, which it did. The cameraman kept it rolling and recorded the subsequent aircraft malfunction.

We were told at the time that it was due to the stabilator not being properly refitted after a previous flight the day before. Something tells me it might have been an Israeli-destined a/c, but I can't swear to it.

Didn't put me off the F4, though!;);)

[ORAC]

Fuller (3 min 54 sec) video (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675045369_F-4J-crash_firemen-spray-foam_ejection-seat_plane-burns) of the same incident.

Location: Saint Louis Missouri
Date: 1968, March 20
Duration: 3 min 51 sec

US Navy McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II crashes at St. Louis, Missouri. F-4J taxis for take off, lifts off and climbs steeply. Plane moves flatly through air in vertical position. It loses all speed. Aircraft hits side of the runway and explodes into a huge fireball. Black smoke billows up from impact area. Plane continues to burn. F-4J ablaze. Crash crew makes way to fire. Ambulance on ground. Personnel walk around a vehicle. Two pilots examine ejection seat on runway. Ejection seat resting on runway. Two pilots get into a station wagon with other civilian personnel. Collapsed chute laying on grass. View of ejection seat. Blown canopy, other debris lying about runway in the background. F-4J still ablaze. Fire engine enters and moves down a runway. Firemen wades knee-deep through foam while fighting fire. Heavy smoke rises from wreckage. Burst F-4J, heavy foam in the foreground. Fireman squirt more foam into opening of F-4J while smoke is pouring out.

This historic stock footage available in HD and SD video. View pricing in lower left of video player.

Ejection History gives the date as 23rd March (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/project/year_pages/1968.htm).

23rd March 1968
McDonnell-Douglas - F-4J Phantom II crashed shortly after take-off
C. D. "Pete" Pilcher, Production Test Pilot, ejected safely.
Harvey A. Begay, Radar Observer ejected safely

[India Four Two]

On the website that ORAC posted, the pictures show the pilots inspecting one of the seats. They are both wearing pressure (partial-pressure?) suits.

Would that have been normal for production test flights?

[Krystal n chips]

ORAC,

Many thanks for the links....I can now work with these and use them accordingly...:ok:

[spottilludrop]

Have to say your comment regarding the technician who left the item in the aircraft is rather strange for someone in the safety management game, The first thing you need to get over is the very best people can and do make mistakes, by implying he is somehow not a "real technician" because he made a error is very flawed.
One of the salient points thing that needs to be got across very clearly is we are all human and error/misjudgement is a built in part of us, we are all capable of make serious errors no matter how competent and highly trained we are.

I myself are not in the aircraft game but the principles are exactly the same across every industry that has to manage risk

[wiggy]

The reason for the crash was given as a technician ( not a term I would use in this case ) who had left a riveting tool...hardly a small item, in the aircraft and this had jammed the controls.

Looks like there are various stories doing the rounds then..the one I heard was that the aircraft suffered a double PC failure ( PC 1 and PC2 were two of the aircraft's hydraulics systems, and the only ones that powered the horizontal stab) which left the pilot with no pitch control.

It would be interesting to get the real story.

[ORAC]

Just to add the caution that if it was still flown/owned by McD rather than the navy/USMC, they might not have done the accident investigation.

From the Naval History and Heritage Command (http://pacaeropress.websitetoolbox.com/post/NAVY-ACCIDENT-REPORT-REQUESTS-5397834)

I'm writing to give you an overview of what the Navy has as far as aircraft accident reports, how you'd get access to them, and the types of information they'd contain.

The Naval History and Heritage Command has custody of all existing aircraft accident reports for Class A mishaps occurring between July 1, 1955 and December 31, 1979. A Class A mishap is any accident that resulted in the death of an individual or the total loss of an airframe. Reports of investigation into Class A mishaps are the only investigations the Navy keeps permanently; investigatory records of Class B or lower mishaps are destroyed after a relatively short period of time.

These accident reports aren't fully releasable. Our staff must redact the witness statements from these records, as their release would compromise the integrity of the mishap investigation process. We also redact personal and medical information (i.e. autopsy reports, social security numbers, etc.) as their release would constitute an unwarranted invasion of the privacy of the individuals or their next of kin. Beyond this information, AAR's include a summary of the accident and the investigation, the findings of the investigatory board, enclosures supporting the findings, and pictures of the crash site and defective equipment (if it's relevant). Since all these reports exist only on microfilm, the pictures are of an extremely poor quality. We'll do our utmost to give you the best images we can, but some of them are bound to be horrible...............

Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research (http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/reports.htm)

We have over 100,000 reports on file. Orders are generally processed in just a few weeks. In addition to our collection of microfilm on accident reports and aircraft record cards, we have expanded our research library to include MACRs. In the event that we do not have the report on file, we will notify you immediately, obtain the report and send it to you as soon as we obtain it, which usually takes around a month. These reports are unedited (they were just recently declassified) and we provide the complete report. We spend the extra time to produce the best print possible from the microfilm.