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dead_pan
25th Jan 2013, 22:52
This just in from the Beeb:

BBC News - Gunman dies after public stop Plymouth bookmaker robbery (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21208674)

Rough places those bookies (especially around are way), not the sort of places you'd try to hold up. Speculating the clientele were a tad over-zealous in restraining the individual...

racedo
26th Jan 2013, 00:00
Who would have bet on that happening..............

500N
26th Jan 2013, 00:21
Perfect justice.

Loose rivets
26th Jan 2013, 00:28
I hope someone erases the tapes.

con-pilot
26th Jan 2013, 00:34
Impossible, pistols are banned in England. So this never happened.

Good job by the customers stopping this gunman, that didn't happen, because guns are banned. :ok:

11Fan
26th Jan 2013, 00:52
Who would have bet on that happening..............

Yeah, what were the odds?

galaxy flyer
26th Jan 2013, 01:36
Who knew? Self-defense in the UK.

GF

CoodaShooda
26th Jan 2013, 04:54
Dare a disinterested observer observe that an armed criminal has been taken down by unarmed bystanders?

Are there any lessons to be learned here? :E

hellsbrink
26th Jan 2013, 05:11
Are there any lessons to be learned here?

Yes, don't wear a gas mask when you're 50 if you want to keep breathing

sitigeltfel
26th Jan 2013, 08:51
I predict the following.

1, The police officers involved will be disciplined for "lack of care".
2, The paramedics will be criticised for not responding quickly enough.
3, A number of the customers will be prosecuted for manslaughter.
4, Ladbrokes will be sued for not having adequate security.
5, An MP will start shouting about police brutality.
6, Legions of social workers will be mobilised to support the gunmans relatives.
7, The robbers family will be awarded massive damages.
8, A number of lawyers and barristers will become even richer, at the expense of the taxpayer.

Vitesse
26th Jan 2013, 09:01
Prediction - The pistol will turn out to be fake.

I reckon this will be food for the lawyers. With luck it'll turn out that the time of death cannot be accurately calculated.

Quite a shock to jump from have-a-go hero to murder/manslaughter suspect, though.

stuckgear
26th Jan 2013, 09:07
The man, in his 50s, entered the Ladbrokes branch in Crownhill Road at 18:45 GMT on Friday wearing a gas mask and holding a pistol.


maybe he mistook it for a sex shop.

A A Gruntpuddock
26th Jan 2013, 09:07
"have-a-go hero to murder/manslaughter suspect"

Quite apart from whatever effect the gas mask had on the situation, if you hold someone down too firmly (kneeling on their back for instance), you stand a good chance of killing them.

If the rib cage has no room to expand then breathing becomes impossible.

Seldomfitforpurpose
26th Jan 2013, 09:24
Dare a disinterested observer observe that an armed criminal has been taken down by unarmed bystanders?

Are there any lessons to be learned here? :E

Absolutely priceless :D:D:D

racedo
26th Jan 2013, 09:43
"Family man killed by angry mob"..............will be a headline

Doubt anything will happen to anybody.

Standard Noise
26th Jan 2013, 09:45
Oh, another thread on the stupidity of man, hurrah!
Well, as we say where I come from 'That'll learn ye!' He'll not do that again. Tw4t................sorry, dead tw4t.

ShyTorque
26th Jan 2013, 09:52
Impossible, pistols are banned in England. So this never happened.
Good job by the customers stopping this gunman, that didn't happen, because guns are banned.

So, you'd prefer it if he had been shot? :rolleyes:

charliegolf
26th Jan 2013, 11:14
Prediction:

3, A number of the customers will be prosecuted for manslaughter.

Counter-prediction: No they won't.

CG

sisemen
26th Jan 2013, 13:37
Counter-counter prediction.

There will be a rumour that they will be charged with manslaughter (man's laughter??); the Waily Dale will jump and down like a mad jumpy up and down thing; angry letters will be written; the vigilantes will have a worrying period then everyone will forget about it.

Meanwhile....down at the Inns of Court .......kerching!

doubleu-anker
26th Jan 2013, 13:41
sitigeltfel

Good one. I think your predictions will be spot on!!

OFSO
26th Jan 2013, 14:00
Surely at the time, the majority of British living in the southern half of England were wearing gas masks because of the French Pong ?

wings folded
26th Jan 2013, 14:03
That's according to my count, three threads which have been opened on this topic.

Are Original Posters:

1) Testing the moderators vigilence?

2) Too lazy to read other threads before posting?

The subject heading was similar enough to be a little bit obvious in each case.

vulcanised
26th Jan 2013, 14:29
Same with the plethora of Oz threads.

airship
26th Jan 2013, 14:31
Police arrested the man, who was already unconscious, but he died a short time later at the scene How exactly do you "arrest" someone who is unconscious or even already dead...? :confused:

"There were the two men, customers I think, on top of him, and the bloke on the floor. Never thought that it happenned in real life. I know that everyone of us imagines he has superpowers (aka Superman, the Incredible Hulk etc.), just waiting for the opportunity to expose their powers, nay, superhero qualities, to the rest of the community. Presumably they will be looking forward to several years of imprisonment as a result, on charges of manslaughter or similar.

I'm a 50 year old too. In my younger years, I might have considered robbing banks etc. as a career maybe, but rapidly decided to simply earn an honest living. But what if I lost my job tomorrow and as a 52 year old, became yet another of those too young to qualify for a pension but unemployable by virtue of their age by 99% of companies?

Only time will tell whether or not this robber was really-armed with anything more than a replica pistol. And the gas-mask (WWI era?) was not to protect himself against the Sarin gas canisters he released at the beginning of the attack, simply that he might not have been able to buy another simple Ronald Reagan mask from the local joke shop.

I could perhaps understand such actions from the customers if they were flying on a hijacked commercial airplane post 9/11. Otherwise, please place all yer bets on-line in future...?! :ok:

Capot
26th Jan 2013, 15:46
Not totally relevant to this incident, but in my very limited experience you only find out if a gun is a replica after you've killed the person pointing it at you, just in case it wasn't.

G-CPTN
26th Jan 2013, 15:51
Levers was jailed for four years in 2010 for robbery with an imitation firearm at Costcutter, Mutley Plain, Plymouth. He terrified a female shopworker into handing over £600 by pointing the weapon at her body and face - and was caught the next day.
Levers, whose address in 2010 was given as Seaview Avenue, Lipson, had convictions for burglary and assault going back to 1976, when he was 13.
He was jailed for 42 months in 2006 for burglary.
He was a recovering heroin user with a significant drink problem.
From:- Masked gunman dies in bungled Ladbrokes bookmaker armed robbery bid in Crownhill Road Plymouth | This is Plymouth (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Man-died-armed-robbery-bid-bookmakers-named/story-17961433-detail/story.html)

Standard Noise
26th Jan 2013, 16:09
Levers was jailed for four years in 2010
And he was available to rob a bookies at the start of 2013 because............

So I think we can surmise that those to blame are in fact the Grauniad reading hand wringers in our criminal justice system, who, would prefer to let criminals out early for 'good behaviour' (despite the fact that they go to prison for bad behaviour), than protect the public.

He's dead, no loss to society. That's the society who's conventions and rules he sought to live outside of.

G-CPTN
26th Jan 2013, 16:30
He gambled and lost . . .

vulcanised
26th Jan 2013, 16:48
I was also wondering how someone unconscious can be arrested.

Don't they, at the end of that absurdly long caution, sy, "Do you understand?"

Presumably an answer is not required then?

sitigeltfel
26th Jan 2013, 17:13
The father of three, who suffered from a lung condition which restricted his breathing, lived just a few streets away from the bookmakers and had a history of violent crime and armed robberies. He chose to wear a gas mask when he already had breathing problems :confused:

One for the Darwin awards methinks!

stuckgear
26th Jan 2013, 17:19
He chose to wear a gas mask when he already had breathing problems http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif


you'd have though he would have carried out a risk assessment first !

con-pilot
26th Jan 2013, 17:26
So, you'd prefer it if he had been shot?

No, suffocation is fine, as that will most likely be ruled the cause of death.

However, as pistols are banned in England, just ask Wombat if you don't believe me, he could have not had a pistol, therefore, this poor guy was murdered by mob violence.

So, as sitigeltfel posted;

1, The police officers involved will be disciplined for "lack of care".
2, The paramedics will be criticised for not responding quickly enough.
3, A number of the customers will be prosecuted for manslaughter.
4, Ladbrokes will be sued for not having adequate security.
5, An MP will start shouting about police brutality.
6, Legions of social workers will be mobilised to support the gunmans relatives.
7, The robbers family will be awarded massive damages.
8, A number of lawyers and barristers will become even richer, at the expense of the taxpayer.

Will happen.

hellsbrink
26th Jan 2013, 17:31
Don't they, at the end of that absurdly long caution, sy, "Do you understand?"

Presumably an answer is not required then?

"Exercised his Right to Remain Silent, Your Honour, how were we to know the accused was almost dead since we are not allowed to beat him until he squeals any more?"

Milo Minderbinder
26th Jan 2013, 17:45
I hope he got kicked enough times to suffer pain before he died

Blues&twos
26th Jan 2013, 18:02
Reported on the radio that the pistol was an imitation firearm, as suggested by an earlier poster.

cavortingcheetah
26th Jan 2013, 18:08
On the subject of High Street Misery Machines, one tabloid today has this to say:

'It is much the same story in jobless hotspots in London, such as West Ham, Bethnal Green, Hackney and Tottenham, as well as in Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester. Lucy Powell, the Labour MP for Manchester Central — a few miles from Rochdale — has complained: ‘There is more money being spent on gambling in my constituency than by the council on services.’

The figures are stark: people in the 50 poorest areas pumped £5.6 billion (including winnings) last year into 4,454 machines at 1,251 betting shops. This total was four times more than that gambled by residents in the 50 parts of the country with the most people in work and, coincidentally, the fewest betting shops — prosperous Henley-on-Thames in the Home Counties, for example, has none.

And few will miss the ironic — if sad — point that the vast majority of the constituencies hardest hit by this craze are those of Labour MPs. For the lethal casino machines began to proliferate only after 2001 when Gordon Brown, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, abolished duty on individual bets in favour of a tax on bookmakers’ gross profits.

As a result, the betting chains, which had been in decline, began to enjoy a recovery and the increase in business continued as customers were increasingly drawn to the newly-introduced terminals. Betting shops with turnovers of hundreds of pounds a week found they were taking thousands when they installed FOBTs.

By 2007, there were 16,380 in Britain. Last year, this had doubled to 32,000, with William Hill, Ladbrokes, Coral and Paddy Power collectively making more than £1 billion a year from the machines.'

It appears to be an inescapably reasonable speculation that much of the money spent by the daily wastrels in betting shops is benefit money. The poor man, murdered by the mob, was nothing more than another benefit thief.

Milo Minderbinder
26th Jan 2013, 18:11
It may have been imitation, but the people there weren't to know that. As far as they were concerned he was armed, and had probable intent to use it. Presumably there will be a coroners court before any charges can be brought? A verdict of justifiable homicide would be correct in my view.

cavortingcheetah
26th Jan 2013, 18:28
That would make the murder of Harry Stanley an act of justifiable homicide?
Stanley, who was walking to his home and carrying a table leg wrapped in a plastic bag, was shot dead by two policemen at point blank range in 1999. The force got away with it, as the police in beautiful gun free Britain tend to, when they kill an innocent person stone cold dead.

Blues&twos
26th Jan 2013, 18:46
The Harry Stanley case was a tragedy that should never have happened. Just to correct one point - he wasn't shot "at point blank range". The SO19 officers were approx 15 to 20 ft away.
This isn't making any particular point...just correcting!

cavortingcheetah
26th Jan 2013, 18:52
It's a perfectly fair correction.

tony draper
26th Jan 2013, 20:50
You seem to have forgotten the fine details of the case, Stanley had been thrown out of a pub for threatening the customers,he returned with a chair leg wrapped up to look like a gun,they locked the pub door and phoned the police reporting a man with a gun was at large,the reason they thought he was carrying a gun was because that was what he wanted people to think he was carrying
Innocent man my arse.

421dog
26th Jan 2013, 21:27
The Harry Stanley case was a tragedy that should never have happened. Just to correct one point - he wasn't shot "at point blank range". The SO19 officers were approx 15 to 20 ft away.
This isn't making any particular point...just correcting!

Just to be a stickler, and without knowing which weapons were used in the shooting, I would posit that 20 feet would still be within point-blank range of just about any common round/firearm combination

AlpineSkier
27th Jan 2013, 00:52
.....and being a stickler for correct language, point-blank would only be 12-18 inches max

toffeez
27th Jan 2013, 08:09
Police described the customers who tackled him as "extremely brave". No charges have been made.

In a statement Ch Supt Andy Bickley said: "I can share with you that the firearm has been initially examined by a police firearms officer and it appears to be an imitation pistol. I would like to add however that there would have been no way of knowing this at the time of the incident."

"The actions taken by members of the public in the shop were brave and showed a disregard for their own safety."

stuckgear
27th Jan 2013, 08:57
On the subject of High Street Misery Machines, one tabloid today has this to say:

'It is much the same story in jobless hotspots in London, such as West Ham, Bethnal Green, Hackney and Tottenham, as well as in Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester. Lucy Powell, the Labour MP for Manchester Central — a few miles from Rochdale — has complained: ‘There is more money being spent on gambling in my constituency than by the council on services.’

The figures are stark: people in the 50 poorest areas pumped £5.6 billion (including winnings) last year into 4,454 machines at 1,251 betting shops. This total was four times more than that gambled by residents in the 50 parts of the country with the most people in work and, coincidentally, the fewest betting shops — prosperous Henley-on-Thames in the Home Counties, for example, has none.

And few will miss the ironic — if sad — point that the vast majority of the constituencies hardest hit by this craze are those of Labour MPs. For the lethal casino machines began to proliferate only after 2001 when Gordon Brown, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, abolished duty on individual bets in favour of a tax on bookmakers’ gross profits.

As a result, the betting chains, which had been in decline, began to enjoy a recovery and the increase in business continued as customers were increasingly drawn to the newly-introduced terminals. Betting shops with turnovers of hundreds of pounds a week found they were taking thousands when they installed FOBTs.



cavorting,

also not forgetting that it was errm the labour party that relaxed the laws on gambling...

we see the nub of of labour, undertake poor policy then later shriek from the sidelines that 'something must be done'.

Was Labour right to bet on gambling? | Open thread | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/06/gambling-harriet-harman)


The liberalisation of gambling laws introduced by the last Labour government have been branded a "mistake (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/05/labour-mistake-gambling-law-harman)" by the party's deputy leader, Harriet Harman. Harman has called for elements of the Gambling Act, which legislated for the expansion of betting shops in deprived areas, to be reversed.
Tonight's Channel 4 Dispatches (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/home), which investigates the proliferation of gambling since the act, will show how deprived areas have more than double the number of betting shops than prosperous ones – with about 12 shops for every 100,000 in population, compared with just five in richer areas.

Tankertrashnav
27th Jan 2013, 09:02
1, The police officers involved will be disciplined for "lack of care".
2, The paramedics will be criticised for not responding quickly enough.
3, A number of the customers will be prosecuted for manslaughter.
4, Ladbrokes will be sued for not having adequate security.
5, An MP will start shouting about police brutality.
6, Legions of social workers will be mobilised to support the gunmans relatives.
7, The robbers family will be awarded massive damages.
8, A number of lawyers and barristers will become even richer, at the expense of the taxpayer.


Con & Sitigeltfel

Bet you the only two of the above predictions to come true will be (5) because MPs of all colours can't resist shouting about anything to draw attention to themselves and (8) because that is a given in absolutely any situation you can care to imagine! As far as the rest are concerned, in the light of comments by the senior policeman quoted by toffeez it seems that the Daily Mail outrage bus can go back in its garage again.

sitigeltfel
27th Jan 2013, 09:07
.....and being a stickler for correct language, point-blank would only be 12-18 inches max

It actually means that the shot is fired from a distance that does not require correction for elevation.

The term point-blank range is of French origin. The center of a target was once a small white spot and the French for white is blanc. The term therefore means "aim at the white point in the center of the target". Point-blank range is the distance a marksman can reasonably expect to fire a specific weapon hitting a specific target without further adjustment of the fixed sights. A marksman should be able to hit the target every time at point-blank range, providing there are no deficiencies in the weapon, ammunition or marksman. Note: It is essential that the point-blank range with designated ammunition be determined by the manufacture by fixed stand testing to have a true determination of a specific weapon's "point-blank range". The military does it by testing and retesting.
Pedant mode: On / Off

Blues&twos
27th Jan 2013, 12:36
Fancy that. Two things I've learned today!

The weapons used were apparently Glock pistols of some type. The firearms experts among you can decide if 15 to 20 ft is technically point blank.:ok:

421dog
27th Jan 2013, 14:03
I'd be happy to do the math, but I can guarantee you that the bullet drop at 15-20 feet is essentially nil.

In fact, depending on sight configuration, the bullet may actually rising at that short range, thus it's possible that this is substantially less than point-blank range.

Blues&twos
27th Jan 2013, 14:27
In that case, please accept my apologies cavortingcheetah, you were right the first time!

stuckgear
27th Jan 2013, 15:38
i'd agree with 421dawg