QF pilots and management pow-wow

[ejectx3]

So how did it go? What was discussed? Was there any common ground found? Are we all besties again?

Are there any ppruners who can shed some light?

[DirectAnywhere]

* new uniforms.
* eXcel awards for everyone.
* Christmas diaries to be reinstated.
* Double dinner allowance at Christmas to be extended to those in their home base as well.
* glossy magazine called 'Aspire' or something similarly inane to highlight your colleagues achievements. First issue to detail the thrilling stories of 747 and 380 crew who choose to extend.
* iPads for everyone - oh wait....
* daily emails from Simon Hickey to everyone detailing the amazing "transformation" of the international business currently underway.
* only one Chief pilot - segmentation not really working anyway.
* long service badges to be equipped with an extra ruby at all levels.
*Career still f:mad:d but at least you'll fell better about yourself when being made redundant.

Please note that any similarity to anything discussed at said meeting is purely coincidental and is intended for comedic purposes only.

[stuckintheRHS]

They promise to stop issuing RIN FSOs at 4.55pm on a Friday.

Stop trying to use the flight and duty limitations as a aim for domestic ops.

Honestly I'm not sure if its achievable. I'd love to know how much discretionary fuel ordering has gone up last few years. I'm sure they do.

[ejectx3]

What's RIN? "Results in nothing"?

Edit: oh ... Reduction

[DirectAnywhere]

RIN = Reduction in Numbers.

[Autobrakes4]

This new course being developed wont work.

The only thing that will improve pilot engagement in Qf is new management and career progression. :ok:

[busdriver007]

Truer words have not been spoken.......


I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.

I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.

I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.

Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.

I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.

I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.

I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.

I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.

I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.

The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.

[ejectx3]

Truer words have not been spoken.......


I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.

I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.

I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.

Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.

I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.

I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.

I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.

I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.

I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.

The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.



This is everything I feel. bravo

[Shot Nancy]

Dear Busdriver007,
Well put.
Unfortunately the adversarial "management" style is becoming oh so more prevalent.

[ejectx3]

Why do they persevere with this ridiculous way to run an airline? Are these idiots mad?

[Bograt]

I think your initiative is great and definitely worth a shot but unfortunately destined to fail.

I don't think the company understands or values the pilot profession or if it does has decided to exploit rather than reward the lack of mobility that is inherent with it. In years to come I see this leading to lower pilot standards and safety but this is perhaps another discussion for another time.

I think that the attitude of the company changed when management decided to confront, alienate, and make us the problem, rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar.

Alan Joyce was central to that decision. What we see now stems from the fall out and the destruction of trust and spirit of cooperation that more or less existed between pilots and management prior to that.

I don't believe that any meaningful discussions can take place between pilots and management in the current environment with the current players.

I don't believe that the pilot body is in a position to change the current environment. We recently tried via dialogue and non militant means and were locked out of the work place. We have no other avenue or tools available to us and feel disenfranchised and impotent as a result.

I believe that the current management and Alan Joyce in particular has destroyed so much trust, respect, brand and share holder value, that they are now very much the problem and are unable to have a role in any solution.

I don't have any personal grievance to bear towards anyone but firmly believe that the first step on the road to restoring trust, respect, and share holder value is for both Alan Joyce and the Chairman who is ultimately responsible for appointing him to be replaced.

I wish you luck but think your efforts will be in vain so long as the current management continues to believe that "cost nuetral" initiatives can only be measured in dollars and cents directly and fails to see the ultimate value of loyal, contented staff and happy customers.

The lack of respect, trust and ultimately loyalty between management, staff and customers is what I believe to be the core problem and would put on top of my agenda. Fix that and all the other issues fix themselves.

Hear, hear.

This is the same in my outfit - it's the current airline pilot HR model. Substitute the names for our mob and the story is the same. Our rotting started in 1994 with B scales and away management went on this destructive trail.

I was discussing this with a much younger pilot the other day and he asked if I thought it would get better. Can't possibly do so. It's not what management want. At best, the relationships will stay as they are - which is woeful.

I'm leaving the industry after 30+ years. Not retiring, but a career change.

Good luck to those who remain behind.

[Typhoon650]

It's not just in aviation that staff are being treated in such a way, it seems to be the new business model in many fields.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.

[Sunfish]

Typhoon:

It's not just in aviation that staff are being treated in such a way, it seems to be the new business model in many fields.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.

....and it will continue until someone like Bob Katter rips the corporate shills in both Labor and Liberal parties to shreds,

We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.

Look at the creeps who run the AWU and formerly the HSU. Look at that creep Eddie Obeid in NSW. Look at some of the crap in the Liberal party.

If you keep electing scum, then the living and working conditions of the average Australian (as opposed to the 1%) are only going to get worse.

[Creampuff]

We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.Correct :ok: (Although the problem these days is not so much lobbyists, but more that the parties fill every available position with their 'mates'.)

[Mstr Caution]

The problem with current management is they manage reactive and too late.

The current management pow wows would not be occurring if they listened and acted on employees concerns years ago.

I'd go further to say they should listen & act on employee advice in a range of areas.

Examples off the top of my mind include:

1. Mainline staff were concerned about their career progression in 2004, hence the MOU with JQ but management failed to manage the pilot numbers. Recruitment progressed full steam ahead at JQ whilst mainline pilots were denied the opportunity to transfer to JQ. Total group pilot numbers increased so too the surplus of pilots in mainline. I believe there are currently around 200 surplus pilots in mainline. If the MOU was managed correctly there should have been no surplus, that's why the MOU was out in place.

2. Engagement surveys revealed the lack of mainline engagement for years, including mainline members concerns about career progression. If management had addresses the concerns years earlier there would be no need for the management pow wows now.

3. Frontline staff constantly provided feedback from passengers about JQ/QF code sharing. Our passengers would tell us they thought they bought Qantas & got Jetstar. Only now years later have management decided to pull the code share numbers on selected flights.

4. For years QF passengers have told frontline staff they want mainline to fly to places like Bali & Hamilton island. But management decided on a slow retreat from destinations only to gift passengers to the likes of JQ & VB.

5. Staff were telling management for years even though the 767 was due for retirement it needed a cabin refresh & IFE upgrade. It took years before the refresh commenced.

The problem is they don't listen. Then eventually roll forward a couple of years, countless focus groups over latte's and minute taking. Consultation with external consultants and new initiatives are implemented and sold as management driven change.

It's about longevity. The pilots group needs to just sit on their hands. Passing time before theses clowns manage change albeit late.

[27/09]

Sunfish
Typhoon:

Quote:
It's not just in aviation that staff are being treated in such a way, it seems to be the new business model in many fields.
AWA's are being used to divide and conquer all staff at all levels.
....and it will continue until someone like Bob Katter rips the corporate shills in both Labor and Liberal parties to shreds,

We need Politicians who actually have agendas they personally want to push, people who believe in something, anything but just not careerist aresholes who will sell any message a lobbyist gives them to enrich themselves. It matters not Labor or Liberal.

Might I suggest that some of the problem at least stems from what all the HR and other managers are taught during their uni days etc.

[The The]

The problem with current management is they manage reactive and too late.

Yeah, like the Chief Pilot domestic who hasn't bothered to update his fleet blog (or get one of the minnows to), since 1 December 2012. Shows how much he cares about keeping the troops informed.

Oh, but there were 2 blogs for the whole of Nov, both getting stuck into the troops.

[Transition Layer]

Yeah, like the Chief Pilot domestic who hasn't bothered to update his fleet blog (or get one of the minnows to), since 1 December 2012. Shows how much he cares about keeping the troops informed.


Noticed that myself. Not surprised though...after seeing his performance at a Flight Crew briefing last year I hardly think engagement is his strong suit.

[Zapatas Blood]

"rather than engage us and include us as part of the solution over the necessary introduction of jetstar."

I think the conversation went something like this:

QF: "we need to change the way we do things. We need to cut labor and we need lower salaries if we are going to compete in a changing market place."

Pilots: "Get knicked."

QF: "OK. We will try something else then, thanks."

[busdriver007]

Australian Airlines was all about compromise but guess what these people wanted more and they continue to do so today....race to the bottom! Starting salary for driving trucks is how much?

[Gingerbread]

You’re too close to the truth Zapata

The pilots convincing rejection of LHEBA8 made it very clear to QF management that far reaching democratically agreed productivity was not going to be achievable in the time they had to rescue QFs Asia/Europe operations from unfettered foreign competition the government had unleashed upon Australia.

That management then embarked on the transformation afoot in the mistaken belief that taking the workforce with it wasn’t necessary, has got us where we are today.

Unfortunately, where to from here, is probably no longer in the hands of the management and the unions. Qantas has become swept up into Middle Eastern/Chinese global competition to control US air traffic from tomorrow's centres of production. Regretfully no way back, other than renationalising Qantas. Something no government is likely to do.

Root clause – Federal Government’s decision to expose a tiny nation of 22M people and its national airline to global open skies.

Way forward I suspect, is embracing mutually agreed change to make sure Qantas International can continue profitable operations to North America, South America, South Africa and Japan. Expect Europe and probably Asia isn’t/ won’t be profitable for Qantas (as we know it) for much longer.

Bloody sad, but we get the leadership we vote for.

[noip]

ZB,

You could not be more wrong - reality was the reverse. I find your ill-informed hatred of QF mainline pilots tiresome. Your tune never changes.


Gingerbread,

You seem to have your history screwed up. Nice story, but pity about the facts. (hint - EBA 8 came looonnnggg after the current management course of action was in place. It was rejected for vastly different reasons to what you allude).


The reality?

GD made noises about negotiating Jetstar flying after EBA 7 was finalised, but never had any intention of talking, despite AIPA's willingness and demonstrated flexibility with the AO contract. Once EBA 7 was passed, GD announced a done deal excluding Mainline pilots.


N

[LookinDown]

ZB,
You conveniently left out a few salient words in your quote...

QF: "we need to change the way we do things. We need to cut labor and we need to lower everyone but management's salaries if we are going to compete in a changing market place."
LD

[Zapatas Blood]

Noip

"The reality...." is that the belligerence from your team goes back a lot further than you think my friend.

[LookinDown]

That's exactly the point ZB!

An effective management doesn't conduct IR based on what happened ten or even five years ago. That time span may well be fifty years for its relevance to the current situation. Your statement typifies the elephant in the process... the old grudges dare not be let go of, especially if they can be used to manipulate the outcomes.

AIPA have arguably run an extremely professional and surprisingly conciliatory evidence based campaign with the long term interests of the pilots tied to the long term growth of the company for some years now. One which had paid token attention to any wage rise considerations beyong CPI and which has focused almost solely on efficiencies and fairness.

Yet, even at the sacrifice of potential profit and the share price, management have remained largely inexorable throughout. Their goals didn't take these into consideration as they were working to alternative and now more obvious strategies.

So, troll or no troll, you really hit the nail on the head.
LD

[Cost Index]

I've always loved this when being said of most Accountant/HR/Management types..

"They see the cost in everything but the value in nothing" :ugh: