Will a Viscount ever fly again?

[FlyerJoe]

Hi,

I love the vickers Viscount and wondered whether one would ever fly again. Its seems such a shame that such a lovely aircraft is no longer flying. I just wondered how difficult it would be to get one flying again?

thanks

Flyerjoe

[Endeavour]

Have a look at the latest newsletter.

Vickers Viscount Network - A Virtual Museum dedicated to the Vickers-Armstrongs VC2 Viscount (http://vickersviscount.net/)

[JEM60]

A rather simplistic reply from me.
Int hese days of modern engineering it is probably possible to rebuild anything.
First and foremost will be the condition of the wreck/preserved airframe etc.,. then the willingness of people to do it, and, the most important of course, a vast amount of money, I shouldn't wonder. Probably feasable, given those conditions, but don't hold your breath!!.

[Fareastdriver]

When our Valiants were scrapped in 1964 we were told that the Viscount had a similar problem because they used similar alloys in their main spars. As the spar failures were age related I would imagine that any remaining Viscount spars would have deteriorated beyond redemption.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Any erstwhile aeroplane could fly again, technically (legally is something else). It was done once, it can be done again. Question is, who would fund it, and why?

[MX Trainer]

Door Seals for Pressurization were the reason I was told as the single item that would end the flying life of the aircraft.

The seals are only used on this aircraft - both front and read door I believe are the same. The manufacturer long ago got rid of the machinery to make them - but I was told at the time that they would remake them - First one will cost you about $30,000.00 - after that quite a bit cheaper.:rolleyes:

I do know that the Viscount used to transport entertainers (US Registered) a number of years back got our rear door seal for a spare sometime in the late 90's. It was at the time an instructional airframe and now resides in the museum in Victoria B.C.

I suppose you could fly the aircraft unpressurized - but I would think the fuel burn would be pretty severe at low altitudes - probably to the point where it would be not economically feasible??

Are there any 4 howling Dart powered aircraft left flying???

That's what I was told - always stand to be corrected by someone who knows more than I do!!:)

Mx

[chevvron]

Last one I flew on was the BAF service Gatwick - Rotterdam. Sitting in my seat I thought 'isn't it wonderful to have such huge windows'.
Previously I did the Shetland run from Glasgow. I wasn't allowed to sit in my allocated seat, in fact I had to stand most of the way as being an ATCO, my presence was required on the flight deck, squeezing behind the captain's seat for takeoff and landing. Mind you, scurrying across Scapa Flow at 500ft was great fun!! I dare say the fuel burn at non-pressurised altitude was pretty high, but after we cleared the mainland at Wick, the highest we got to was about 1000ft.
I also did the GB Airways flight in 'Yogi' from Tangier to Gib a few times; once again we never seemed to climb very high.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

My one and only Viscount flight was BAF, Manchester to Jersey. I asked for the jump seat, proffering my PPL, and was told "no jumpseat fitted, but you can stand up behind the P2 if you want". So I did - including the T/O and landing!

[airsmiles]

My first flight in 1972 was in a BMA Viscount from Hurn to Jersey. I'd certainly pay my subs to any group that allowed me to hear 4 Dart engines aloft once again.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re...that allowed me to hear 4 Dart engines aloft once again.

EH?? WHAT??

You can always pick the old F-27 drivers at an 'Older Pilots' Meeting.

They're the ones with the hearing aids turned right up....

Cheers:p

[avionic type]

I know for a fact all BEA 700 series lower inner spars were changed in the late 50s early 60s, as I was on the gang that did them but cannot remember if any of the 800 series were changed, all the top spar web bolt holes were checked for cracking and new bolts fitted because another company found cracks in theirs in the late 60s
As for getting one flying again unless the airframe was kept in a hanger I imagine the fuselage will have corrosion somewhere given the time the aircraft if open to the elements and unless we go down the Vulcan road it will cost a kings ransom to get one in the air again let alone pressurise it.
sorry to be a pessimist yes I am slightly deaf but the old "Whistlers"were nothing compaired to the Comets and Tridents on ground runs.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

You can always pick the old F-27 drivers at an 'Older Pilots' Meeting.

They're the ones with the hearing aids turned right up....

Ah, but that's the F27. We returned from that Channel Isles holiday on BMAP, even than an aging old Fokker, and again I was up front for the entire flight.

I still don't know how an aeroplane with half as many Darts as the Viscount can be ten times as noisy!

[thetimesreader84]

Sorry if this is thread drift, but...

This to me sums up why, in my opinion, the Vulcan project was such a huge waste of money. The amount of cash sunk into that project could have restored any number of classic British airliners to airworthy standards, or kept others flying. (HS748 / Andover, Viscount, VC10, Comet / BAC 1-11, and so on), with the added advantage that tickets could be sold for passenger / enthusiast trips, corporate sponsorship could be easier to get from some of the various airlines that used to operate these types, they are already in many cases certified for civilian ops and don't need a massive recertification procedure, and so on.

Sadly, I feel that the Vulcan operation, and the mismanagement or miscalculation has spoiled people's (especially those with serious money) attitudes towards aviation restoration. I can't see the lottery fund getting involved in a "Viscount to the sky" programme now.

Sorry to bring up the "V" word (I know it tends to keep cropping up in threads on this board, but I really think that it was the right idea with the wrong aircraft at its heart.

Rant over

TTR

[Phileas Fogg]

I do believe that airworthy HS748/Andover's are based at Boscombe Down, airworthy VC10's are based at Brize Norton, there's a Comet at Bruntingthorpe in need of an CoA to, perhaps, see it flying again and so on.

I guess the problem is that the British military never operated VC8's?

[Groundloop]

I guess the problem is that the British military never operated VC8's?

The Royal Aircraft Establishment and the Empire Test Pilots School did - all with RAF serials.

Also, didn't Boscombe Down dispose of their last Andover last month?

[Wyvernfan]

TTR, there are a number of reasons why an ex military bomber is totally different to operate than a commercial passenger / pleasure flying airliner. I also doubt very much that any old airliner would attract public donations or funding in quite the same way as the "V bomber" has done. I mean is joe public really going to pack out an airshow just to see an Andover flying?

So why not stop bashing the Vulcan, and instead just enjoy it while we can before we all start winging again that theres nothing exciting left to watch!


Rob

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

To restore any extinct airliner to flying condition and get it cleared for pax flying would probably cost at least as much as the Vulcan has cost. And you can dream, but there isn't an airliner (except maybe Concorde but that's an impossible machine to return to flight) that would have attracted a fraction of the public's money, not to mention lottery money, that the Vulcan has. So it just wouldn't happen.

[JW411]

I think we have to be practical. To get a Viscount back into flying condition would cost millions and I doubt that anyone would be prepared to take on the design authority. Who would fork out for the project and, if so, why?

I flew the Viscount (802/806) in 1964 and I loved it but, let's face it, that was nearly 50 years ago and it was not exactly new then.

[thetimesreader84]

I'm not "bashing" the Vulcan (oo-er), I think it's a great achievement to get it flying. I just think that the money would have been more productively used on an airliner, that it would have made more business sense (and romance aside, aircraft restoration projects of this size are businesses) to have got an airliner (or kept an airliner) flying.

I think the paying public, if you have an old aircraft displayed suitably loudly and aggressively at low level, coupled with an appropriate PR campaign, they would be prepared to get behind the programme. I know my parents flew on honeymoon on a Comet with DanAir, I remember spotting BAC1-11s etc as a kid, perhaps we could harness those memories?

I agree as well that it probably won't happen, which is sad. And as I said, it is a great achievement to have got the Vulcan flying, it would have just been nice if that could have been a bit of a springboard to get more large classic aircraft in the air.

TTR

[FlyerJoe]

Thanks for all the great responses, I think there is still hope for the viscount, as stated before I think that a good pr campaign with low flyovers etc. could do the trick :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

an old aircraft displayed suitably loudly and aggressively at low level

There are an unlimited number of old civil aircraft in American 'boneyards' that could easily be restored to flying condition. How many of them have been refurbished and gone on the display circuit?

[Wyvernfan]

Thats a fair point Fareastdriver. Apart from John Travolta's superb Boeing 707 i'd be interested to know how many other mainstream vintage airliners have been restored to fly in the US in private ownership?


Rob

[norwich]

Rob, To answer a part of your question above try a google search on the registration N836D, this should give you a good view on the years of restoration work that went on to get a DC-7B flying in the US, you may already know about this project ?
My point here is that although this project achieved its 'climax' and the aircraft did fly and people were allowed to 'join the club' and have a flight aboard whist it was at many US airshows.
I was lucky enough to be one of 50 passengers aboard its first, and only, overseas flight, a tour of the Carribean in May 2011, whilst on this epic trip talking with the operators they could not understand the lack of interest from the US enthusiasts, the majority of the 50 passengers were from Europe !, so a lack of local interest must be a factor built into any future projects of this type ?
The last I heard of N836D it was stuck at Charlotte N.Carolina with a major engine problem that will need a $100.000 replacement and a severe lack of interest from the locals ??
I stand to be corrected on these points ! But how many of us would be prepared to transfer a lot of money from our bank accounts to have a flight in a Viscount ?? .... But I would if the chance were there ?????
Keith :)

[FlyerJoe]

Do you recon it is easier and cheaper to keep an old aircraft that is currently flying in flying condition, something like a vc-10 even though it is much bigger than a viscount?

[avionic type]

If there is plenty of engines and support from BAE available and a ton of cash for fuel it might be a goer for an ex military to fly but 4 engine jets of that era are "gas guzzlers " and to fly passengers in them would cost alot of money to get it certified and I can assure you there is no sentiment in aviation over old Airplanes of the era and you will be lucky to get your hands on a RAF VC10 as as they get to the end of their life its Away to Bruntingthorpe to be broken up for spares
The reason the Vanguard that I help to maintain at Brooklands was Grounded in 1996 was lack of spares and engines which neither BAC or Rolls Royce would support any longer so when the Cof A ran out on the 30th September 1996 It wasn't worth trying to renew it at least it didn't end up as Bake bean tins like the other Vanguards.

[Four Wings]

Aden Airways again: they lost one Viscount of course when it was blown up on the ground during a 24 hour quarantine period. After the bombing of the DC3 (Nov 66) all aircraft had to be quarantined for 24 hours before flying as it was reckoned the terrorists' timers were limited to 24 hours. The system worked. They lost a Viscount.
I have to say some AA pilots did tend to show off - I was invited once to the cockpit for a flight to Jeddah (1964). On approach the Captain called for all eyes out to find the Jeddah radio mast (allegedly the only marker) whilst he gently yawed left and right to give a wider span of the horizon.
Yawing became obvious when one of the stewardesses was flying (not infrequent). You always knew (as a pax) if it was Chrissie Chambers - very attractive but quite small, so she couldn't really reach the pedals.
And of course when it came to desert storming in the C47/DC3s quite a few pax stories....

[Discorde]

The reason the Vanguard that I help to maintain at Brooklands was Grounded in 1996 was lack of spares and engines which neither BAC or Rolls Royce would support any longer so when the Cof A ran out on the 30th September 1996 It wasn't worth trying to renew it at least it didn't end up as Bake bean tins like the other Vanguards.

There's still one (fictitious) Vanguard flying, albeit in Merchantman configuration:

The Damocles Plot

[Cubs2jets]

Quote:
Rob, To answer a part of your question above try a google search on the registration N836D, this should give you a good view on the years of restoration work that went on to get a DC-7B flying in the US, you may already know about this project ?

N836D is now moldering away in a location that can't take care of it and doesn't care. On her last departure, with paying passengers onboard, she blew Number 3. I have been told there were already plans in the works to replace Number 4 for pending problems. She is now stuck in Charlotte, NC at the Carolinas Aviation Museum - outside, unprotected and uncared for.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj200/Cubs2jets/SullyDC7Engine3_zps943f18b0.jpg

I was told at the time of the engine failure, two of the three owning parties had voted to ground the airplane due to the high cost of operation. Insurance alone for a plane that carried 40 some passengers was an eyewatering figure to me. I believe I was told that it would cost about $100,000 per engine to get the two engines replaced.

As far as preservation of this beautiful plane, to my knowledge, NOTHING was done by the owners (or the museum) except have 700 gallons of 100LL fuel removed to prevent environmental contamination due to (to my eye) significant fuel leaks. The crew departed late the afternoon of the event and to my knowledge NO ONE representing the owners has ever returned to look in on the old girl. Nothing was done to protect/preserve Nos. 1 and 2. Nothing was done with the batteries. Nothing was done to cover holes to keep her from being a giant "birdhouse" (pun intended).

The DC-7 will NOT fit in the hangar at the C.A.M. (it's full of a smashed, waterlogged A-320). I know of no plans to even make her ferriable to get to somewhere that she could be cared for.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj200/Cubs2jets/EasternN836DR_zps246fad75.jpg

We all have desires to see "heratige" equipment of all types in operation. I believe it truly serves a purpose in education. BUT few are really willing to shoulder the incredible financial burdon of making this happen and most of those that talk about it don't know what they are talking about.

C2j

C2j

[Wyvernfan]

Thanks for your reply Keith. I remember the pics you posted of your flight in it :ok:


Rob

[Wyvernfan]

Thanks for the update Cubs2jets. A sad end indeed.


Rob

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

There's still one (fictitious) Vanguard flying, albeit in Merchantman configuration:

The Damocles Plot The Damocles Plot

Is this available in print form?

[FlyerJoe]

Avionic type, do you still run the engines on the vanguard at brooklands?

[avionic type]

Flyer joe we don't run the engines anymore for 3 reasons 1st the a/c has been with us for nearly 17 years and we cannot find out the internal state of the engines because the Tyne has no method whereby we can Boroscope it,and we decided it prudent not to run them again, 2nd the starter motor on 1 engine is U/S and we have no spares and 3 , the Bus museum is behind 1and 2engines and as it has plastc walls we think perhaps about 400 degrees C exhaust from the jet pipes might melt it
Pity it was fun to get the engines up to High Ground Idle and smell the old parrafin fumes again. I was normally on the ground engineers headset :):):):)

[RatherBeFlying]

Compared to the fancy turbo-compounds on the DC-7s and Connies, the early turboprop engines should be much easier to look after -- and more reliable.

It might also help that turbine fuel remains available. When was the last time you saw 145 octane at the pumps?

[Discorde]

Quote:
There's still one (fictitious) Vanguard flying, albeit in Merchantman configuration:

The Damocles Plot

Is this available in print form?

I've sent a PM, SSD.

[avionic type]

RatherBeFlying ,the turboprop is only cheaper to run if there is any way to check the compessor blades for damage inside the engine and the Dart and engines of that era there was no way that could be done with the engine on the wing ,it was a workshop job as it had to be stripped down compleatly .modern Boroscope testing with fiber optic cameras through inspection ports did not come in till the 70s and that was pure jet engines [ I can only speak for BEA but we were pretty well up in the fore front of civil aviaton technics] but I'm more than willing to be shot down in flames

[quinkytube]

avionic type, I was working and licensed (mainly engines) on the merchantman right up to the retirement of “EP”. Our scheduled boroscope inspections of the compressor section were carried out at the interstage casing on left hand side of the engine. This involved removing the triangular plate secured with qty 3 9/16 bolts, then with a rigid 90 degree scope could easily view the LP 5 and HP 1 stages turning the prop by hand had sufficient friction to rotate the HP as well. The condition of the compressor at this point was considered to give a representative picture of the state of the overall compressor. On the side of each nacelle is a quick access panel when opened you will see a small round panel with a lever opening this allows for a 4th stage turbine inspection using a torch and mirror.
Further to your starter motor problem, the Rolls Royce museum in Derby has Tyne 506 on display. We helped build it up for them and it did have a starter fitted then, possible they would do a swap with you.
Regards.

[tristar 500]

quinkytube, I will get the steps & open the cowlings ready for you to do the boro & if they are good avionic type & I wil run them for you!!!

tristar500

Sorry for thread drift. 500

[RatherBeFlying]

AT, I just looked at a Dart cutaway. Yep, it looks pretty challenging to remove the housings from the centrifugal stages -- and likely even more fun to get them back on right:uhoh:

But all those bolts would keep the volunteers busy:}

My initial take is that the early centrifugal compressor engines had admirable reliability and were less fussy than the early axial jobs. The T-33s and Vampires were flying long after they went out of active service.

[geofpickrv6a]

If you want to hear Darts running go to youtube and search HS748 as they are still operating in the Canadian North.

[Standard Noise]

I worked at Coventry at the time the Viscounts were pulled from duty on the mail runs (and the last Merchantman). Used to love the sound when the engines were running. Can't believe the miserable sods who used to ring us at 2 in the morning and complain about the noise, bloody Philistines!

[Abbeville]

Google Earth - Brownsville/Tx - go to end of Amelia Earhart drive - Streetview

Lo and behold!

[radeng]

There's a Viscount in the museum at the Christchurch heritage park in NZ. Indoors. But who knows what the condition is?

[denys jones]

Yes ZK-BRF sits happily in her home. She's only a parted out shell of her former self and we also had to cut to lower main spar booms to get her apart when we couldn't get the lower set of taper pins to budge.

Follow the restoration of Viscount ZK-BRF c/n 283 (http://www.vickersviscount.net/Pages_Restoration/ZK-BRFHome.aspx)