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OFSO
22nd Jan 2013, 12:37
Did anyone else think, upon hearing that a 56 year old British woman had been sentenced to death in Bali for trafficking in cocaine - she was found going through customs with 4.8Kg of the white stuff in the lining of her suitcase, which is hardly an amount for personal use - well, there we go again, a candidate for the Darwin Award.

You travel to a place which makes it very well known that there is the death penalty for trafficking in drugs, you carry drugs, you get caught. End of story.

The excuses "I had to do it because the lives of my children were in danger" or "a history of mental problems - preyed on by drug dealers" and all of the bleeding hearts who rise up out of the woodwork to defend her as being a "victim" just leave me cold.

If you look at the number of people on death row or awaiting a trial for which the death penalty is a possibility, the vast majority are foreigners and of them a significant proportion, shamefully, are British.

Bali is cracking down (no pun intended) on foreigners importing drugs to sell at a substantial profit on the island and who can blame them. I wish more countries would take action against foreigners who come and commit crimes there. Spain for ex., doesn't seem to care one bit.

sisemen
22nd Jan 2013, 12:41
You do actually wonder whether people do learn.

No sympathy.

BOAC
22nd Jan 2013, 12:43
Providing the case is cast iron (no puns intended) I reckon a swift 'topping' should send a clear signal to anyone else who is tempted.

Lon More
22nd Jan 2013, 12:55
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

What was she expecting? A British justicial rap over the knuckles?

Sorry no sympathy for her; possibly some for the kids although they might already have followed the mother's example into the drugs world.

G-CPTN
22nd Jan 2013, 13:26
It was probably going to be her 'last run' . . .

'Tis now.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Jan 2013, 13:34
grandmother

One would have thought this might cause her to think about all the children's lives which would be ruined, or ended, by the heroin she was shipping.

stuckgear
22nd Jan 2013, 13:43
What was she expecting? A British justicial rap over the knuckles?



a very valid point Lon... too many have become complacent about law and illegality that just expect a couple of months and perhaps some counselling.

for one thing, she wont be repeating her crime now she's been caught.

rotornut
22nd Jan 2013, 14:04
If she had seen this video she might have changed her mind:

Locked Up Abroad S01E08 Thailand - YouTube

MagnusP
22nd Jan 2013, 14:04
Fox3, I think it was cocaine, but your point is well made.

Perhaps we could merge this with the Iranian preacher bloke, then look for the on-ramp to the Darwin thread.

vulcanised
22nd Jan 2013, 14:18
Has she tried the Asperger's excuse yet?

Temp Spike
22nd Jan 2013, 14:20
Oh man. I was detained, interrogated and my bags punctured, tested, inspected, and, falsely rejected in Montréal simply because when asked by customs where I was coming from, I said “Djibouti”, which is where I was coming from! Apparently Djibouti means smuggler or something or other in French. So don’t blame Americans for not knowing geography because Canadian customs haven’t a clue either.

What a horrible experience that was.

Alloa Akbar
22nd Jan 2013, 14:22
As has been already pointed out, there seems to be a high number of foreigners getting caught doing this, and a large volume of "I was set up" claims. Personally, as much as I enjoy the far east, I will never set foot in Thailand, Bali, Indonesia etc for the pure and simple reason that I do not trust the authorities.

I'm not saying this woman is innocent, but I would not take the risk.

Andy_S
22nd Jan 2013, 14:40
I'm not saying this woman is innocent, but I would not take the risk.

I think the woman herself has never denied her guilt.

When you consider the number of western tourists who visit places like Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia without difficulty, you've got to ask yourself whether being genuinely 'set up' is really that likely.

stuckgear
22nd Jan 2013, 14:44
well at least it's firing squad.. it could have been worse she could been sentanced to listen to a half hour of an Ed Miliband interview.

Sallyann1234
22nd Jan 2013, 14:46
"Following her arrest, she was interrogated by the Indonesian police without a translator, legal representation or the assistance of the British Embassy for 10 days."

Not that it excuses her carrying drugs in any way, but it seems that she has not received a fair trial by Western standards.

The publicity may well help to deter others, but I suspect the death sentence will not be carried out because none have been since 2008.

skydiver69
22nd Jan 2013, 15:00
"Following her arrest, she was interrogated by the Indonesian police without a translator, legal representation or the assistance of the British Embassy for 10 days."

I've now got a vision of Indonesian Police talking Bahasa at her VERY SLOWLY and in a LOUD VOICE whilst miming cocaine use.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
22nd Jan 2013, 15:23
MagnusP - sorry, initial report I read said heroin.

Temp Spike - Sorry about Montreal customs. Suggest you use any other Canadian airport in future, the rest are great; even I avoid Montreal customs.

I agree about the fair trial; but being pragmatic, would a fair trial have changed anything in this case?

airship
22nd Jan 2013, 15:32
Whether or not correctly accused / defended or sentenced etc., I'd still like to think that a more suitable place of incarceration might be found for this 56 year old woman and drug-trafficker. Perhaps closer to home and her origins. Does this woman really represent any real danger to the general population? Surely there's some differences "still to be made" between the supplier of an illegal substance / the consumer / and eventual "administrator of any lethal overdose" of such apparently illegal substances...?!

It reminds me of the now almost decade-long and unceasing "witch-hunt" of paedophiles most recently. Where little differentiation is made when considering the levels of offences and/or sentences.

Interestingly enough, 80-90% of all sexual abuse (forgetting for a moment simple physical and mental abuse) against children is committed by their parents, close relatives or family friends. Not strangers...

So the next time anyone here thinks that the death sentence will suffice, consider the alternatives, for your own sakes, or those of your close relatives if you're so unlucky etc.

Cats apparently have 9 lives. If only human-beings were allowed a 1/3rd similarly... :sad::ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Jan 2013, 15:38
. Does this woman really represent any real danger to the general population?

Not now, but if she had gotten through undetected?

Tableview
22nd Jan 2013, 15:49
I don't see too much sympathy expressed here.

No, I have none either. I know that when you fill in the landing card for many countries it has in big print at the top THE PENALTY FOR DRUG DEALING IS DEATH. Not sure if this applies to Indonesia as it's a long time since I've been there.

I'd happily see it applied globally.

sisemen
22nd Jan 2013, 15:51
I wondered how long it would take for the first 'bleeding heart' to appear. 18 posts!

mutt
22nd Jan 2013, 16:04
Whenever i go to Indonesia, i use the baggage wrapping service at the airport of departure to ensure that my bags only contains what i packed, I have no desire to end up with any surprises like Schapelle Corby.

Mutt

radeng
22nd Jan 2013, 16:05
Interesting that the prosecution asked for a jail sentence, and the judges rejected it. So an appeal may well succeed.

But personally, I would cut off all foreign aid - including any disaster relief - to a country that executed drug smugglers.

The death penalty should be kept for terrorists and their supporters.

Andy_S
22nd Jan 2013, 16:09
I'd still like to think that a more suitable place of incarceration might be found for this 56 year old woman and drug-trafficker. Perhaps closer to home and her origins.

Why? She broke Indonesian law, and the crime was committed in Indonesia. Why should she be jailed anywhere else?

500N
22nd Jan 2013, 16:29
"THE PENALTY FOR DRUG DEALING IS DEATH. Not sure if this applies to Indonesia as it's a long time since I've been there. "

In one of the airports a long time ago - I think KL - it was written in big letters on the wall. You can't miss it.

Sorry, no sympathy.

We in Aus have been through various big sagas over the last few years
with Chappelle Corby (says it was planted by someone else) and the gang of nine where the Aus police tipped off the Indo Police / Customs so were picked up in Bali not Australia !!!

The death penalty gets a lot of publicity over here as well.

.

Olive61
22nd Jan 2013, 16:55
About half the world thinks that the rest of the world must be 'just like home'. The truth is it isn't, and if you are caught doing something seriously illegal in many countries, there's no publicly funded lawyer running around in front of the press claiming that it's all her grandmothers fault for not baking her favourite cake for her when she was 2 years old. The harsh reality is it's probaly RIP sister. It's cheaper on the state than imprisonment. When you see the mentailty of the poor lost clowns on 'Banged Up Abroad' you do get some insight into their miserable world and absolutely mindless mentality about what is likely to be the consequence of their actions. I feel sorry for her family, but relieved that a bunch of (probably) younger people won't have access to the drugs she was trafficking. Clock one up for the Darwin award nominations.

con-pilot
22nd Jan 2013, 17:14
I wouldn't want this old woman to serve her sentence in the USA

Just why not, what do you know about Federal Prisons in the US?

stuckgear
22nd Jan 2013, 17:23
Perhaps closer to home and her origins. Does this woman really represent any real danger to the general population? Surely there's some differences "still to be made" between the supplier of an illegal substance / the consumer / and eventual "administrator of any lethal overdose" of such apparently illegal substances...?!

It reminds me of the now almost decade-long and unceasing "witch-hunt"

hmmm.. a habitual drug smuggler's conviction compared to a witch hunt in all seriousness..

you couldn't make it up.

well you could.

airship
22nd Jan 2013, 17:44
Just why not, what do you know about Federal Prisons in the US? Only what I've read in the newspapers in recent times but more often gleaned online.

Sorry c-p, in case I offended you or the USA generally. But I am definitely under the impression that most prisoners (whatever their sentences, whether or not they are black etc.) are obliged to go through the "cute ass / rape" stuff, at least initially, before eventually coming up with all the US$$$ before the lawyers or public defenders decide to act...

You haven't ever been in that position? Well, I'm truly grateful for that. And even if you had, I'd still treat you respectfully.

Lon More
22nd Jan 2013, 17:45
Bali high?

racedo
22nd Jan 2013, 17:51
How dare they imprison this obviously innocent poor brit who was set up by the system and is carrying the can for something she clearly did not do.

I think MPs should start a clear campaign so that she gets a fair trial abroad and released back into her loving family in the UK.

How dare Jonny Foreigner try one of HM Subjects, she must be innocent as she is a brit.

Of course if and when she is returned to the UK with much rejoicing by family members because it wasn't a fair trial the UK media will welcome her with open arms.

2 years later when caught with drugs in UK she will be a scum drug dealer selling to kids.

con-pilot
22nd Jan 2013, 18:51
Sorry c-p, in case I offended you or the USA generally. But I am definitely under the impression that most prisoners (whatever their sentences, whether or not they are black etc.) are obliged to go through the "cute ass / rape" stuff, at least initially, before eventually coming up with all the US$$$ before the lawyers or public defenders decide to act...

You haven't ever been in that position? Well, I'm truly grateful for that. And even if you had, I'd still treat you respectfully.

Okay, so you know absolutely nothing except what you have seen in movies about US Federal Prisons. Just as I thought.

Don't you ever get even slightly embarrassed about being so wrong, when you spout off on things you have zero accurate or factual knowledge of?

So, just how rich was Timothy McVeigh, so he could be represented by all of those attorneys he had? You being an expert of the US Federal Justice system, you should know that right off the top of your head.

toffeez
22nd Jan 2013, 19:00
Hands up all those who'd be willing to witness the execution at close range as an observer on behalf of the British people.

Slasher
22nd Jan 2013, 19:48
...I haven't seen a pic of that Brit woman - but I dare say since she is 56 the
bleeding heart component of the Unwashed probably won't be using that silly
"Oh but she's too beautiful to have done the crime!" defence they once used
in support of Corby this time.

Corby was just plain lucky she wasn't committed 6 feet under.

As for that Brit or anyone else stupid enough to traffic hard drugs through or
into this region that's their problem - my heart doesn't pump piss for any of
'em.

gileraguy
22nd Jan 2013, 19:52
Interestingly regarding the Gang of Nine, the AFP's charter SPECIFICALLY states that where the risk of the death penalty exists, they are forbidden to act with the responsible police department. That is, they NEVER should have informed the Indo cops about the plan.

stuckgear
22nd Jan 2013, 19:58
Interestingly regarding the Gang of Nine, the AFP's charter SPECIFICALLY states that where the risk of the death penalty exists, they are forbidden to act with the responsible police department. That is, they NEVER should have informed the Indo cops about the plan.

Bummer. message too short so this bit added

cargosales
22nd Jan 2013, 20:07
"THE PENALTY FOR DRUG DEALING IS DEATH. Not sure if this applies to Indonesia as it's a long time since I've been there. "

In one of the airports a long time ago - I think KL - it was written in big letters on the wall. You can't miss it.



.

When I arrived in Singapore there were posters all over the airport with great big red CAPITAL LETTERS announcing that

THE PENALTY FOR SMUGGLING DRUGS IS DEATH. Simples... Wish we had that here actually ...


Sorry to anyone who's offended but I'm firmly in the camp of 'no sympathy for this stupid woman'


I trust none of you has ever taken any sort of illegal drug, thereby sustaining the supply chain? :suspect:

Interesting point .. Actually I have .. except that it was legal in the country I tried it in (The Netherlands), which is the main point in question - about abiding by the laws of other countries and facing up to the sentences of their judicial systems when you try to break their laws.

Less interesting perhaps is that said substance made me sick as a dog :ooh: and I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to repeat the experience

OFSO
22nd Jan 2013, 20:17
How different, how very different from the home life of our own dear Queen...oh sorry, where was I, how very different from our own home life Indonesia is.

Walking the dog at Christmas time in the local park in London, I avoided the two benches where sat the criminal fraternity of youths, selling crack to all and sundry, who had put knife wounds requiring 52 stitches in a neighbouring boy's head the day before because he tried to sell some pot on their territory, the darn fool. Oh, and they also kicked his ribs in.

One thinks the firing squad might be useful in their case, too.

Slasher
22nd Jan 2013, 20:17
I don't believe that executions should be cruel. A 38 to the back of the head
would be humane.


However -

One thinks the firing squad might be useful in their case, too.

Fully unloading an AK at 'em point blank would be justifiable OFSO.

500N
22nd Jan 2013, 21:46
gilerguy

We know that re the AFP and it has been argued about till the cows
come home and frankly, I don't think the general public, except the
few very vocal lefty do godders really GAF.

I know Corby has little sympathy in this country.

Agree re Corby should be 6 feet under.


At least the Indos are taking the fight to the drug trade
- and for that matter the Terrorists as well.

It maks it so much simpler if you get rid of them at the time
- look at the BS with Bashir, probably why now they open fire
first and ask questions later when they find a hideout !!!
And good one them too.

500N
22nd Jan 2013, 22:12
"As to the drug trafficker, I note from a previous post that the death penalt may be withheld at the discretion of nation in question. "


The death penalty is quite often withheld or changed on appeal
from the death penalty to prison term. Just look at the number
of Aussies who have had it done for them.

Of course their is a hell of a lot of behind the scenes negotiation
from our Gov't for this to happen and then of course the Indos need
to "go through the motions" of appeals so that they don't lose face.

Just look at Chappelle Corby's trials to see examples of "saving face"
but still getting some sort of justice.


Re the AFP, I "gather" from reading various things that they
were sick of druggies getting off in this country and some of
this gang were well known, hence why the Indos were warned
and the arrest made that side of the water.

Anyone care to comment ????????

Shack37
22nd Jan 2013, 22:17
Never seen so many people getting erections over someone being sentenced to death. There'll be absolute orgasms over the next massacre in a school somewhere.

Lonewolf_50
22nd Jan 2013, 22:24
shack, I will estimate that people being "for justice being done" is a different reaction from people reacting to a "slaughter of the innocents."

You sure you want to stick with that badly constructed attempt at equivalence?

Temp Spike
22nd Jan 2013, 22:47
Lack of government control means lack of control to reduce smuggling drugs or anything else. Law is control. Lack of law to shoot drug traffickers on the spot means lack of control.

brickhistory
22nd Jan 2013, 23:03
Law is control.




Wow.


Just wow.

cavortingcheetah
22nd Jan 2013, 23:09
Law is control.
Gun law is effective control.
Pow!

Temp Spike
23rd Jan 2013, 00:43
Exactly and you will obey the will of the people. Unfortunately the law is weak at the moment. So the bad guys can squirrel around the good guys with little effort.

parabellum
23rd Jan 2013, 08:25
with any surprises like Schapelle Corby.

I think the surprise was getting caught in her case. The word on the street was that it was by no means the first run and had the Indonesian police let her through then they would have wrapped up her sister and sister's husband plus anyone else it lead to but money had changed hands before, possibly not quite quick enough this time? Don't think many people here think she was set up.

Ancient Mariner
23rd Jan 2013, 08:34
Blood thirsty, are we? Praising the Indonesian police and juridical system?
Each to his own.
Per

500N
23rd Jan 2013, 08:37
Not saying it's perfect but they certainly get a lot fewer
2nd offenders !!! :O

parabellum
23rd Jan 2013, 08:38
Sorry, don't see anything blood thirsty in my post and I haven't praised the Indonesian police, I've actually suggested they are corrupt.

Fareastdriver
23rd Jan 2013, 09:11
Bit late though, don't ya think?

glad rag, you are showing you ignorance. By these signs thre are receptacles here you can dump any prohibited items withot observation or penalty.

Gulfstreamaviator
23rd Jan 2013, 09:20
Just thinking out loud...... glf

glad rag
23rd Jan 2013, 09:23
glad rag, you are showing you ignorance.By these signs thre are receptacles here you can dump any prohibited items withot observation or penalty.

:ok:

Well NO excuses then......

Worrals in the wilds
23rd Jan 2013, 10:40
Smugglers never think they're going to get caught, so the penalties are irrelevant to them until it's too late. If they thought the possible consequences were actual then they wouldn't be smugglers.

Five kilos is a lot of white powder. We're not talking about a couple of party pills.

stuckgear
23rd Jan 2013, 10:54
Smugglers never think they're going to get caught, so the penalties are irrelevant to them until it's too late. If they thought the possible consequences were actual then they wouldn't be smugglers.



a slight correction there Worrals.. smugglers don't put the risk on themselves, because of the risk and the consequences, that's why they use 'mules'.

mules think they wont get caught, like this woman did.. 5 times before she was lucky. if mules get away with the risk, they keep trying till they do get caught.


Five kilos is a lot of white powder. We're not talking about a couple of party pills.


indeed and the 5 times before, if she was averaging 5kg a go that's 25kg she had already got through.

Shack37
23rd Jan 2013, 11:34
shack, I will estimate that people being "for justice being done" is a
different reaction from people reacting to a "slaughter of the innocents."

You sure you want to stick with that badly constructed attempt at
equivalence?


Yep, killing is killing whoever does it. Apart from that, a long term in an Indon prison would have been much harsher. My "equivalence" refers to posters here and in other threads who so enjoy the thought of somebody being executed.

Blacksheep
23rd Jan 2013, 12:33
I lived in SE Asia, where the death penalty is mandatory for drug trafficking in most countries, for almost 30 years. I travelled regularly to Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, and the Philippines and never gave a thought to the big bold capital letters at the top of the Visitor Information Cards stating THE PENALTY FOR TRAFFICKING DRUGS IS DEATH. I always carry loads of drugs around with me, but they are for personal consumption. The strongest drug with the most effect is the Diltiazem Hydrochloride. But I digress, heart medication is legal, Class A stuff is another matter and 5 kilos is a truly HUGE amount of cocaine. So the woman would have been well aware of the risk she was taking.

Now, it doesn't matter what any of our opinions on the death penalty might be, or the means of carrying it out - firing squad in this case - the point is Indonesia is a sovereign state, they have their own laws and they make it plain to visitors that importing Class A drugs for sale is a death penalty offence.

If you visit UK and get caught with 5 kilos of Cocaine you're not going to die, but you're certainly going to spend a very long of time locked up with other unpleasant people. If you visit a SE Asian country while carrying a marketable amount of what they call Dangerous Drugs you might get hung, shot or lethally injected, depending on which country catches you, but thats their law, you simply have to follow it or take the consequences.

500N
23rd Jan 2013, 12:40
Shack

"My "equivalence" refers to posters here and in other threads who so enjoy the thought of somebody being executed."

We have drug dealers in this country, get a slap on the wrist or some
piss poor term, out early with good behaviour and straight back into it.

Sorry, no sympathy.

Everyone knows the laws in those countries so they can't blame
anyone else but themselves.

Lonewolf_50
23rd Jan 2013, 20:04
Shack, suggest you try to read my response to this post of yours, and keep in mind your bolded part.
Never seen so many people getting erections over someone being sentenced to death. There'll be absolute orgasms over the next massacre in a school somewhere.
shack, I will estimate that people being "for justice being done" is a different reaction from people reacting to a "slaughter of the innocents."
You sure you want to stick with that badly constructed attempt at equivalence?

1. Do you understand why I wrote that last sentence? Read your post and see. Your response to me tells me that you aren't making the connection.
Yep, killing is killing whoever does it.
A cop shooting a crook is not the same as some jerkwad shooting up a school.
Also, contra your blythe assertion, there is lawful killing (war, executions under due process of law) and there is unlawful killing, such as murder.

While someone is certainly still dead, you are presuming that people who approve of lawful killing are eager to see unlawful killing. I find presumption to be a badly constructed attempt at equivalence.

Also ignorant.
Apart from that, a long term in an Indon prison would have been much harsher.
We agree on that, sir. An execution might be a mercy.
My "equivalence" refers to posters here and in other threads who so enjoy the thought of somebody being executed.
Actually, your post went a bit further than that.

Quite a bit further.

stuckgear
23rd Jan 2013, 20:23
lonewolf a good post, sir.

Andy_S
29th Jan 2013, 09:15
So.....

She smuggled drugs (which she doesn't deny). She smuggled them into a country where the death penalty applies for such a crime. She got caught.

And now, apparently, it's our government who have been negligent.....

BBC News - Death penalty Briton Lindsay Sandiford requests appeal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-21228605)

truckflyer
29th Jan 2013, 09:21
No sympathy for this person, she got everything she deserve!

I have seen gut wrenching stories, of families destroyed because of drug addiction, the pain and the suffering for so many, caused by so few!

Also my wife is from Colombia, and the stories that have been told, of the violence and brute force used against innocent people, who get the suffer due to the existence of drug trafficking is sickening, and we are not talking about violence against people involved in the drug business, but against innocent un-educated people, farmers, who get driven from their land and property, so that drug lords can take over their properties!

So for me death penalty might seems harsh, however how many innocent people have died because of her actions?

Ancient Mariner
29th Jan 2013, 09:28
If no one bought drugs, there would not be a market.
If drugs were legal there would no smuggling.
More than one way to skin a cat.
Per

truckflyer
29th Jan 2013, 09:38
"If drugs were legal there would no smuggling."

Strange conclusion, alcohol is legal, but you still have smuggling!

Legalizing drugs, which drugs? Cocaine, Heroine, Crack, or other drugs? You did not really think that one trough, did you?

Or just legalize all drugs, maybe we open a drug plantation with government money in Mexico or Iraq?

AlpineSkier
29th Jan 2013, 09:43
I'm rather surprised that the Bali resident (Julian Ponder, British ) who was deemed to be the head man of gang and local distributor only got six years ( and prosecution only asked for seven ) . Would have expected them to be at least as tough as on the courrier.

piggybank
29th Jan 2013, 09:44
Toffeez. No I do not just want to witness it. I will gladly put the bullet into the lady myself.

I have spent nearly 40 years based in Bali, and saw the onset of hard drugs and the crimes that started as early as 1975. Robbery, stabbings and violence.

My children were born in Bali and went went to school there, one still is in school in Denpasar. The tales of his classmates using drugs is a worry and I sincerely hope he is learning from their bad experiences.

For those that question the method of locating the drugs either on the body or in baggage the whole event is filmed on a wall mounted video camera and also a hand hand video camera. Sound is recorded at the same time. It would be hard to make false claims against the individual.

As to questioning, there are plenty of people that are available that speak excellent English and no doubt many other languages.

Tableview
29th Jan 2013, 09:48
If drugs were legal people would still kill themselves with them, and would still steal and prostitute themselves to fund their addiction. Or are you proposing that they they should be handed out free to avoid those evils?

There is no solution, let alone a good one, to this problem, but I believe in strict enforcement and in cases like this, the death penalty. I have no sympathy for this woman. This is not some teenager who took a drag on a spliff at a party, this is a mature, albeit unintelligent, woman who knowingly entered into an illegal contract for financial gain.

I have seen gut wrenching stories, of families destroyed because of drug addiction, the pain and the suffering for so many, caused by so few!
Me too, and I have spent a lot of time in Colombia too, it's a tragic example of how evil drugs are.

Fareastdriver
29th Jan 2013, 09:59
I see a bunch of Britsh lawyers are hauling the British Government up in court so as to make them grant Legal Aid for the grandmother's appeal.

That will open up a whole new legal gravy train. When a Brit is caught for something big even though foreign lawyers will be in court British lawyers will need to be there too; flying first class, five star hotels etc etc.

Andy_S
29th Jan 2013, 10:23
Am I missing something here?

Reprieve are presumably funding legal action from their own resources against the British Government to force them to provide legal assistance to this lady (who claims her funds have run out).

Wouldn’t their money have been better spent on employing competent, local legal advisors to defend this woman? Or are Reprieve yet another ‘charity’ who are more interested in political campaigning that actually providing practical assistance to people who need it?

Blacksheep
29th Jan 2013, 12:28
who claims her funds have run out She's a serial drug runner for goodness sake. She'll have lots of money. Its getting her hands on it from where she is thats the problem.

Fliegenmong
29th Jan 2013, 12:54
"one still is in school in Denpasar. The tales of his classmates using drugs is a worry and I sincerely hope he is learning from their bad experiences. "

So...you're saying that school kids are using these drugs.....in Denpasar, despite teh penalties....and they're having 'bad' experiences? Are any on death row? What are you doing to prevent them from using? Tales of usage.....with no arrests?

Odd stuff indeed!! :hmm:

StressFree
29th Jan 2013, 13:51
FFS,

This is the 21st century and people are calling for the death of a fellow human, what good can come from it?

It says a lot about a person when they wish death upon a fellow being, what does it say about you, are you then actually better than them? Are you higher up the food chain, whatever they've done it's your reaction that defines YOU. Make your mind up............

I have NO time for drug traffickers and other low life, but as a civilised human I want no killing done in my name.

Put them in jail and throw away the key.

I await the inevitable 'hang 'em and flog 'em brigade to turn up and slate me, but ask yourself why the WHOLE of Europe and way beyond has abandoned killing as a way to achieve justice. Not forgetting that personal revenge has no place in a civilised legal framework.

Bring it on lads, come on, flame me for these views.....show yourselves, you who want to kill. Come on, I'm ready. :eek:

anotherthing
29th Jan 2013, 14:12
...but as a civilised human I want no killing done in my name.

Put them in jail and throw away the key.If you threw away the key, then how would you feed them etc? They'd die of starvation :p

Joking aside, why should the taxpayer pay lots of money to incarcerate someone for life? What is the point of a life sentence with no chance of parole... apart from getting someone off the street, what does it achieve?

Prison should be used for rehabilitation. It seems to me that you are saying that some criminals should never be allowed back into society... therefore no rehabilitation. Therefore why not exterminate them and save money?

What benefit to society comes from locking someone up and throwing away the key???

G&T ice n slice
29th Jan 2013, 14:14
huh, typical leftie pinko liberal.
it's "flogging and hanging"

flog first, hang afterwards.

where's the fun in flogging a criminal after they're dead???

Tableview
29th Jan 2013, 14:24
It seems to me that you are saying that some criminals should never be allowed back into society... therefore no rehabilitation. Therefore why not exterminate them and save money?

Precisely. It also guarantees that they will not reoffend.

Brian Abraham
29th Jan 2013, 14:30
huh, typical leftie pinko liberal.
it's "flogging and hanging"

flog first, hang afterwards.

where's the fun in flogging a criminal after they're dead?Can be done, as in the days of yore.

Hanged, drawn and quartered - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,_drawn_and_quartered)

Dushan
29th Jan 2013, 14:48
Not forgetting that personal revenge has no place in a civilised legal framework.



Nothing to do with revenge. Simply eliminating the possibility of repeat offenders. You know if it saves just one child's life etc.

AlpineSkier
29th Jan 2013, 15:10
I regard myself as civilised and would like to see armed-robbers killed too: in fact I think it would be good to have points like on a driving-licence, so that worthless scumbags who had committed 20 muggings would be put down like someone who had done three armed robberies or 60 burglaries.

Complicated subject so still adjusting the different values.

StressFree
29th Jan 2013, 16:05
Gentlemen,

Weak responses so far, except Anotherthing, very good point and well made, yours is the only valuable opinion so far. IMHO.

Come on folks, engage, get the brains working beyong the obvious 'killing' thoughts. Humanity has killed itself for many centuries and yet we still get offenders. What should we do?

Alpine Skiier, thanks, they kill us and we kill them, any chance of a new regime?

Dushan, I generally agree but if I sanction killing in my name what does that make me? Even though I'm as keen as all of you to see the end of these scum, it makes me as bad as them, and that I'm not.

Good debate folks, very good debate.

Keep it coming, bring it on . :ok:

air pig
29th Jan 2013, 16:27
StressFree, if you will not execute them, what do you do, lock them up without parole, Supermax style or I like my idea on a remote idea, drop supplies once a month, surround all beach level areas with landmines and a double electrified fence powered from an off shore pontoon with a generator plus back up and a large fuel tank and remote electronic monitoring. Leave them to rot. How do I get a new prisoner on to the island, parachute, risky but its a only a one way journey, Add in paedophiles, rapists and murderers and you survival of the fittest.

stuckgear
29th Jan 2013, 20:21
This is the 21st century and people are calling for the death of a fellow human, what good can come from it?



well she wont do it again will she. despite the 5 times previous to getting caught. six times.. that's playing russian roulette with a full load.

G&T..


where's the fun in flogging a criminal after they're dead???


like flogging a dead mule


hood, coat, door.

G&T ice n slice
29th Jan 2013, 21:32
like flogging a dead mule

is this a euphemism ?
(youfemism, ufemism, uphemsm spelling?)

Dushan
29th Jan 2013, 21:40
Humanity has killed itself for many centuries and yet we still get offenders. What should we do?


The deterrent is not the severity of the punishment, but rather the certainty that it would be administered.

In liberal so-called progressive societies (thanks con-pilot) we have done away with capital punishment and in a few places where it is still used it takes so long to execute someone that the likelihood of it ever happening is minimal. Thus, repeat offenders. In some of the places like Indonesia where the certainty is much higher you have very few occurrences, and the ones caught are either foreigners or stupid criminals, or those who think that they can (and probably have in the past) buy their way out.

Tableview
29th Jan 2013, 21:50
Jazz Hands : Has it occurred to you that perhaps the 'hang 'em high' brigade would have brought up our children in an environment where firstly they do not break the law / smuggle drugs / put other peoples' lives in danger for their own enrichment, and that they understand the consequences of such actions.

I realise that this may be an alien concept to liberals, idealists, and lefties.

Arm out the window
30th Jan 2013, 03:26
It's all well and good to say the penalty for drug dealing is death, but it seems there are bucketloads of drugs available for purchase in places like Indonesia and Thailand.

Apparently the reality as far as the ready availability of illicit drugs goes is that the stuff is there and freely accessible - you wouldn't think you'd have to be Sherlock Holmes to nab a good quota of dealers daily if you were a local copper. Of course none of the cops would be on the take now, would they?!

Do many dealers get put to death, or what? Not much of a deterrent, by the looks of things.

500N
30th Jan 2013, 03:31
ARM

A hell of a lot of people on death row and in prison in Indo.

It just doesn't get the publicity.

Slasher
30th Jan 2013, 05:37
I notice the main (actually the only) cries for death penalty abolition
around these parts comes from the bleeding heart Western brigade. http://serve.mysmiley.net/mad/mad.gif

http://deathpenaltythailand.bl*gsp*t.com/

(You'll have to copy/paste/insert the "o"s).

Krystal n chips
30th Jan 2013, 05:56
" Jazz Hands : Has it occurred to you that perhaps the 'hang 'em high' brigade would have brought up our children in an environment where firstly they do not break the law / smuggle drugs / put other peoples' lives in danger for their own enrichment, and that they understand the consequences of such actions.

I realise that this may be an alien concept to liberals, idealists, and lefties"

I think you can rest assurred, albeit probably reluctant to grasp the fact, that the concepts you propose are, in fact, equally pertinent to those of us who fall into your definitions above.

However, you may also wish to reflect on the fact that those who make the most nois about "hanging and flogging" etc, are also more than happy to participate in law breaking / smuggling / usage of drugs and endangering others for their own enrichment without any real concern, because, as I have said before, society perceives them as being "responsible".

A convenient smokescreen for many therefore.

And yes,as I have said many times, I am against the death penalty for a variety of reasons.

I am though, amazed that with your seeming obsession with pre-adolescent fantasies, you actually noted the fact that many countries have abolished the death penalty Slasher....well done !

Slasher
30th Jan 2013, 06:31
Yes K&C - caused by pressure from you holier-than-thou "enlightened"
bleeding-heart bunch of foreign gits who should be investigating your
own country's ridiculous laws first. :ugh:

AlpineSkier
30th Jan 2013, 06:48
Stress Free

Alpine Skiier, thanks, they kill us and we kill them, any chance of a new regime

In case you hadn't noticed we, in Europe, are not killing them now, so that would be the new regime.

Tableview
30th Jan 2013, 07:35
those who make the most nois about "hanging and flogging" etc, are also more than happy to participate in law breaking / smuggling / usage of drugs and endangering others for their own enrichment without any real concern,

I guess you wrote this before you'd had your morning coffee/tea/fix or whatever. Or maybe you can justify your absurd statement?

parabellum
30th Jan 2013, 07:38
t's all well and good to say the penalty for drug dealing is death, but it
seems there are bucketloads of drugs available for purchase in places like
Indonesia and Thailand.

Just look at the coast line of Indonesia, not to mention Indonesia is made up of several thousand islands and you will see that, with any insignificant fishing boat, you could probably bring in a ton of the stuff with a 99.9% chance of getting away with it, every one of them, police or not, are very vulnerable to corruption, their standard of living dictates that.

Can't see any need to try and bring in relatively small amounts by (foreign) mules at well known airports, could it be that the 'mules' are 'offerings' to the authorities, by the 'big boys', to enable the authorities to look effective whilst they still taking a large bribary cut from the traffickers? (Yes, I have lived in Indonesia).

stuckgear
30th Jan 2013, 07:41
countries that have the death penalty for smuggling large quantities of narcotics make it abundantly clear what the penalty is. i've flown through airports with huge signs proclaiming that smuggling drugs can result in the death peanlty.

it is not hidden, nor is it a new event. people that do engage in such acts do so with the clear knowledge of what they are doing and the outcome.

anyone can go and rent a large woodchipper, and it does a fine job for doing what it does, however, ther are signs on it not to insert body parts and the resultant of doing so is potentially death. so because some a-hole shoves their head in it should they all be banned.. should there be an international outcry ?

Fareastdriver
30th Jan 2013, 09:17
stuckgear.
Wasting your time using a woodchipper as an example; all the bleeding hearts brigade live in flats.

Alloa Akbar
30th Jan 2013, 09:41
Here's my problem with this argument..

Death to Drug dealers and smugglers because they inflict misery upon lives of poor innocent people and families?? Oh please.. Give me a frickin break. The dimwits who willingly spend their own money buying this sh1t and using it are the ones who inflict misery on themselves and their families. Holding these scumbags up as "Victims" of drug dealers and smugglers makes me sick.. The first time they buy drugs, they know what they are doing, so fcuk them.

The dealers and smugglers, yep, scumbags, I agree, but on the basis that many on here seem to blame all society's drug fueled ills on the smugglers, then by default Messers Smith and Wesson have a lot of gun crime to answer for, right??

If we are going to shoot drug smugglers, then lets get real, shoot the users as well, then you will see a crime reduction :ok:

Tableview
30th Jan 2013, 09:51
Alloa Akbar

Here's my problem with your argument.

The dimwits who willingly spend their own money buying this sh1t and using it are the ones who inflict misery on themselves and their families.
They are not necessarily dimwits, they are often innocent and naive kids who are drawn into a cycle of addiction by dealers. It's easy for us, as adults, say they should have known better, but when you're 16, at a party, with a couple of drinks inside you, and some older person offers you, in an apparently genuine gesture of friendship, something that will make you feel better about yourself, pick up some hot chick, stay awake all night ..... whatever. Then you are hooked and on that downhill slope.

So a little more sympathy for the users and death penalty for pushers is appropriate.

Seldomfitforpurpose
30th Jan 2013, 10:14
[B] when you're 16

By the time kids are 16 they will have had more education than you can shake a stick with regards to drugs etc. So have to disagree on that one, by the age of 16 kids know exactly what drugs and cigarettes are going to do you and it's only the stupid and weak that will succumb.

Alloa Akbar
30th Jan 2013, 10:16
Tableview

Whilst I respect your view mate, I have to disagree.. then again, I am a neanderthal victorian dad, who's offspring know that dabbling in such substances will result in a good kicking :E

I have, during my youth and young adulthood been in some of the worlds worst crap-holes, and my friends and I have been offered / pushed just about every substance or vice you can imagine.. But we didn't partake. Why? Simple, we knew the consequences of being caught by officials of the country we were in, or by being caught by our employers.. The Navy.

Educate the kids in the realities of substance abuse, and lock up the scumbag users / pushers / smugglers.

Ancient Mariner
30th Jan 2013, 10:17
Fareastdriver: all the bleeding hearts brigade live in flats.
Not really, I live in my own house, I have a mountain cottage, I cut down trees, chop my own wood, build my own shed, do my own electrical installations, I've done my military service, been a fisherman on trawlers up north and done 16 years in the Merchant Navy.
Still a bleeding heart, strange that. Stereotyping seldom works.
Per

Tableview
30th Jan 2013, 10:17
SFFP : I wish I could agree with you. Certainly in my circle of friends and acquaintances what you say is true - I know my 17 year old son's views on this matter, and that of his contemporaries. Unfortunately the kids that have that level of awareness, education, and family support are in a minority. Look at the feral kids in UK inner city areas, deprived housing estates, and so on. That is where the dealers go to target the weak.

Alloa Akbar : I am also a Neanderthal dad, and so was mine ..... but as I said above, we are in a minority.

Alloa Akbar
30th Jan 2013, 10:25
Table - I fear you may be right..

PS - How long do you give it before someone points out the inconsistency in my phrase "Neanderthal victorian dad.."?? :rolleyes:

Seldomfitforpurpose
30th Jan 2013, 10:34
SFFP : I wish I could agree with you. Certainly in my circle of friends and acquaintances what you say is true - I know my 17 year old son's views on this matter, and that of his contemporaries. Unfortunately the kids that have that level of awareness, education, and family support are in a minority. Look at the feral kids in UK inner city areas, deprived housing estates, and so on. That is where the dealers go to target the weak.


Not seeking a row here ok :ok:

The problem with stereotyping the inner city is that not all kids are feral and not all kids will go onto do drugs or smoke. Conversely go to any above average pub/club/restaurant etc in UK and you will find plenty of the countries finest puffing away outside and from what my kids tell me the drug thing ran right across the spectrum in their school.

I do think that those who go onto to drug/tobacco addiction are either of the stupid variety or the sheep variety or occasionally simply the rebel without a cause :ok:

Octopussy2
30th Jan 2013, 13:08
Proud to be counted as another house-dwelling bleeding heart liberal...

(...WTF was that "flat" comment about?)

StressFree
30th Jan 2013, 14:23
Still waiting folks, still waiting............:ugh:

Ancient Mariner
30th Jan 2013, 14:36
A waste of time, StressFree. I refer to one or two other threads on JB.
Per

Alloa Akbar
30th Jan 2013, 15:01
Perhaps you two might show the way... ??:rolleyes:

G&T ice n slice
30th Jan 2013, 17:01
Still waiting folks, still waiting

dang, I've lost the plot.. what are we waiting for again?

Krystal n chips
30th Jan 2013, 17:24
" (...WTF was that "flat" comment about?)"

There are two potential explanations I suppose.

The first is that people who live in social housing high rise flats are, by default, drug users / benefit cheats etc, etc...add to list as required.

The second, regarding the more affluent,is that they live in flats because they have not moved, in terms of perceived social "hierachy" to the leafy suburbs and countryside where, as we know, all is milk and honey in the civilised shires.

Clearly, living in a flat means you have no idea as to gardening and horticulture because you simply have not progressed up the fabled social ladder to have a garden.

How very remiss of such people...tsk, tsk ! :rolleyes:

Should the above be the perceptions of the OP therefore, then both are wholly incorrect.

StressFree
31st Jan 2013, 09:29
Ancient Mariner,

I fully agree, it seems a waste of time trying reason with these folks :ugh:

Seldomfitforpurpose
31st Jan 2013, 09:50
"If drugs were legal there would no smuggling."

Strange conclusion, alcohol is legal, but you still have smuggling!

Legalizing drugs, which drugs? Cocaine, Heroine, Crack, or other drugs? You did not really think that one trough, did you?

Or just legalize all drugs, maybe we open a drug plantation with government money in Mexico or Iraq?

Or what about we legalise all drugs and make them freely available in a Medical Facility established in every town in UK. The facility would be staffed by health care professionals who would ensure that everything is conducted safely.

The insurance industry would fund it initially from the huge savings made from insurance claims due addicts breaking and entering etc to feed their habits.

By making it free and legal you take most of the 'cool' out of it so kids looking to rebel etc will be less inclined to try something so ordinary, but if they do at least it's done safely.

The Gov't must have tons of the stuff stashed away so giving it away is at no cost and being the Gov't getting it from source cannot be to difficult.

The effects on organised crime would be significant.

Ramblings for sure but taking the mystique out drugs so that kids simply see it as boringly legal has got to be a step in the right direction.

603DX
31st Jan 2013, 10:00
taking the mystique out drugs so that kids simply see it as boringly legal has got to be step in the right direction.

Would these be the same kids who understood what the government was aiming at by drastically extending drinking hours? They saw that making alcohol legally available almost 24 hours a day was to help them drink responsibly, didn't they? Yes, that ploy worked, didn't it? :rolleyes:

Alloa Akbar
31st Jan 2013, 10:27
The Military drug awareness courses were brilliant..

Graphic pics of the guy who, high on LSD or some-such looked in the mirror and hallucinated that he was a monster, so to prevent want he was seeing, gouged his own eyes out. The other pic that sticks in the mind was a scene of someones living room, of a guy who had a flashback trip due to LSD he had taken a while previous.. He thought his girlfriend was a dragon and so severed her head.. That coupled with a few shots of a dying / dead junkie certainly helped focus the mind. None of this "Just say no" sh!te, it was full on "OK Popeye, take drugs if you like but this is what happens.. Oh and by the way we will lock you up then fire you.. Your choice"

No brainer really.. never touched drugs.. :hmm:

Seldomfitforpurpose
31st Jan 2013, 10:54
AA,

Been there, seen that and factor in Random Drug Testing where the CDT team just arrives on unit, effectively puts the Station on Lock Down and then demands to see who so ever they wish to make them pee in a jar......:ok:

cockney steve
31st Jan 2013, 12:15
drug users invariably truncate their own miserable lives anyway.
Dealers are the facilitators.....scum!

Given that the Government has a vested interest in keeping the wheel turning (Police, Customs,social-workers, jail-industry, rehabilitation -industry......There's a massive "legal" network supported by the drugs-trade, indirectly. - drugs are illegal, therefore, the death-penalty short-circuits the inevitable and saves the general populace a bit of misery...also, of course, it's a token-gesture "Pour encoureger les autres"

Legalising all drugs/narcotics would destroy so many Public -employment sinecures that no government will risk it....bear in mind that over 40% of UK GDP is used to fund Public employment and you'd be asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

the present corrupt regime doesn't work,-here or abroad. the morally correct way would be total legalisation or total ban-enforcement
Too many vested interests and too much embarassment for the latter, as outlined above, too much loss-of -face for the former.

The token enforcement keeps the public placated and stops the market -place being over-run with product.

Cynic?- Moi?

Seldomfitforpurpose
31st Jan 2013, 15:43
CS,

Interesting synopsis and hard to fault your logic :ok:

Andy_S
31st Jan 2013, 16:37
Well, she's lost her case against our government:

BBC News - Bali drugs: Lindsay Sandiford loses legal funding case (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21272490)

Seldomfitforpurpose
31st Jan 2013, 16:42
Would these be the same kids who understood what the government was aiming at by drastically extending drinking hours? They saw that making alcohol legally available almost 24 hours a day was to help them drink responsibly, didn't they? Yes, that ploy worked, didn't it? :rolleyes:

And how many of those kids who party hard on a weekend are habitual drug addicts......:rolleyes:

AlpineSkier
31st Jan 2013, 22:46
Well, if it's every week-end, what would your answer be ?

Seldomfitforpurpose
1st Feb 2013, 03:49
Well, if it's every week-end, what would your answer be ?

Ummm, if thats for me what's the question?

ExSp33db1rd
1st Feb 2013, 06:05
living in a flat means you have no idea as to gardening and horticulture because you simply have not progressed up the fabled social ladder to have a garden.

You can have mine now, I YEARN for a flat, no more hard labour, just want to LOOK at gardens now.

You can keep your fabled social ladder, I don't give a stuff what anyone thinks anymore. ( thinks ? did I ever ? )

Seldomfitforpurpose
1st Feb 2013, 07:03
You can keep your fabled social ladder, I don't give a stuff what anyone thinks anymore. ( thinks ? did I ever ? )

The only folk who speak of the social ladder are generally at the bottom looking up.

Shack37
1st Feb 2013, 22:37
The only folk who speak of the social ladder are generally at the bottom
looking up.


At the a**eholes of those looking down at the smiling faces below

G-CPTN
1st Feb 2013, 22:54
K2k1iRD2f-c

BabyBear
8th Apr 2013, 10:39
Lost her appeal, I reckon they are just trying to frighten her!

BBC News - Lindsay Sandiford loses Bali death sentence appeal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22061670)

BB