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probes
19th Jan 2013, 07:07
- and I think I do realise the hazards of bringing this to JB... but curiosity has killed many a cat. Besides, that's something one can't help noticing anyway, and in my mind one of the seven evils of the modern world (aggressively advertising the adult side of the adult world and then wondering why kids don't behave like kids any more).
so.
These days, thereís a new grumble among women who ply the so-called oldest profession in the world. Their clients, they say, are finding it increasingly hard to identify them. Why? Because ordinary 17-year-old girls are dressing just like prostitutes.
The streetwalkers arenít the only ones complaining, of course. Many middle-class parents watch with horror as their little darlings succumb to todayís hyper-sexualised culture, with its sinister diktats on how ordinary teenagers should look and behave.
Sexualisation ó the forcing of a sexual identity onto a child ó was a term originally applied in cases of child sex abuse. Today, itís a problem thatís seen in every primary school, and few girls escape it.
At one end of the spectrum, it means dressing in the wildly inappropriate clothes of streetwalkers.

At the other, it means girls having sex with numerous boys while still at school ó not because they want to, but because they feel that they should.
...
Fifteen years ago, when I published my book Raising Boys, I wrote about boys for just one reason ó they were a disaster area. Back in those days, girls were doing just fine.

But about ten years ago, that started to change. We began to see a sudden and marked plunge in girlsí mental health.

Problems such as eating disorders, binge drinking and self-harm were soon to be found in every classroom. But more than this, the average girl was stressed and depressed in a way we hadnít seen before.

Girls arenít born like this. Something has been happening to poison their lives.







Corrupting of a generation: In a new major Mail series, renowned psychologist Steve Biddulph argues that our daughters are facing an unprecedented crisis | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2264781/Corrupting-generation-In-new-major-Mail-series-renowned-psychologist-Steve-Biddulph-argues-daughters-facing-unprecedented-crisis.html)


P.S no personal feelings, my daughter is past her teens happily. Thank God.

Seldomfitforpurpose
19th Jan 2013, 07:23
Equality, women want to be like men but it isn't so. Once the phrase ladette (spooling please Sproggy) came into fashionable use young women were on a very slippery slope.

I know I will take incoming for a dinosaur mentality but once girls started treating every weekend as a 'hen night' trying to out 'pissed' the guys it was never going to end well.

When K and I were courting in the mid to late 70's going out together was the accepted norm, I drink pints she drinks dry martini and lemonade and we come home together.

When that went out of fashion I am not sure but I do know that, having a 25 year old son and a 24 year old daughter that that is not how it's done today :(

Temp Spike
19th Jan 2013, 07:24
Yes it is shocking, but why is it shocking? IMO because of the terrible things that happen to over sexualized young men and women. Men/boys will use women/girls given the chance. As well, it seems nowadays rape is incredibly common. The most important defense against peer pressure is self confidence. If parents can work to build inner strength and wisdom in their children physically through sports, mentally through education and spiritually through religion or civic organized activities, I think it helps tremendously. Unfortunately life is temporary and there are no guarantees. During the my high school four years, (back when the world was more ďpastoralĒ), we still had 22 students die of unnatural causes to car crashes, drugs, suicide, stupid accidents etc.. With both parents working today, time with the kids is far to lacking IMO and nobody else will do it for you.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
19th Jan 2013, 07:25
The Fail, of course, has approx. 100 photos of women as sex objects to the right of the article.

What is poisoning their lives, Mr Biddulph, is you and your ilk.

Mike X
19th Jan 2013, 07:26
I am not a parent. However, I have been involved with divorced women and their offspring.

It is, in my opinion, a case of serious dumbing down by the meedja. That counts for the parents, too.

What is presented to the populace as entertainment is just a veiled attempt of propaganda, BUT the youngsters take it in subconsciously.

Lord Spandex Masher
19th Jan 2013, 07:30
Temp Spike, in a word - Upbringing.

Milo Minderbinder
19th Jan 2013, 07:54
With the shite on TV and the "teenage" magazines that kids are exposed to nowadays is it any surprise?
Kids are brought up by their parents to watch and accept "East Enders" as being an accurate description of life which one should try to emulate and aspire. A future in which all women are sexualised deceitful tramps, and all men are loathesome violent bullies. Is it any surprise that kids views of moral standards have drifted?
Girls teenage magazines have become junior emulations of Cosmopolitan, spouting sexual-political psychoanalytical crap, and giving handy hints such as "how to give a blow job" and "bikini waxing for beginners". This in magazines aimed at 13-15 year olds.....
And a large fault lies at the door of the big chain stores, selling sexualised clothing to the pre and early teens. G-strings for 12 year olds.........microskirts to match, enough to make any old kiddiefiddler happy.
The mentality of the whole country has changed, due to the rogue perceptions of those who plan the marketing strategy of teenage products, in which marketeers compete to reduce the customer age at which adult products are regarded as "safe" to market.
It won't be long before we'll be into "Brave New World" territory where pre-teens are encouraged to indulge in sexual experimentation, while at the same time permanent partnerships are regarded as outmoded and irrelevant.

But back to the start of my rant......blame the soap operas. They started this process by presenting over many years their abnormal view of the world as being normal and acceptable.

Temp Spike
19th Jan 2013, 08:01
Fox3...good catch.

hellsbrink
19th Jan 2013, 08:06
And a large fault lies at the door of the big chain stores, selling sexualised clothing to the pre and early teens. G-strings for 12 year olds.........microskirts to match, enough to make any old kiddiefiddler happy.

Hypothetically speaking, since I don't know if you have a 12 year old daughter, would you buy your 12 year old daughter that type of clothing?

If you would, then how is it the fault of the "chain stores" as they are not forcing you to buy that type of thing or the fault of the magazines for telling you that you must find it acceptable for a child to wear it.

The "blame" for that lies solely with those who do deem it to be acceptable and actually buy the stuff, like those who bought the strings marketed for 9 year olds. Nobody buys it, they stop selling it. But if people buy it then they will just respond to what the "market" wants.

It's easy to blame others, but the true issue lies squarely at "home" where there are those who deem such a thing to be suitable for someone of such an age and absolutely nowhere else.

Temp Spike
19th Jan 2013, 08:06
Lord Span
- Many people have no idea the mechanics of upbringing. I think it important to elaborate for fear of sounding uppity, but you are right. A parent can spend their time on themselves or their kids. The later is upbringing.

probes
19th Jan 2013, 08:12
A parent can spend their time on themselves or their kids. The later is upbringing.
not necessarily. What was the story about a mom giving botox to her 3-yr old? Or was it 4.

sitigeltfel
19th Jan 2013, 08:47
The Muslim Patrols (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/505528-muslim-patrol-london.html)are out there, watching for young girls to educate.

Milo Minderbinder
19th Jan 2013, 08:52
Hellsbrink
I'm afraid a large part of the population, and especially those to whom this thread is dedicated are intellectually unable to make that judgement call.
If they could, then they wouldn't be buying gash clothes and allowing their kids to flaunt themselves. In short - the adults have already been brainwashed into believing its socially acceptable.
The concept of self-determination, of self-responsibility fails when faced with the juggernaut brainwashing onslought of modern marketing, advertising and populist media.

Milo Minderbinder
19th Jan 2013, 08:54
"What was the story about a mom giving botox to her 3-yr old? Or was it 4."

Didn't see that, but did recently come across a reference to a UK salon offering brazilians for 12-year olds, which surely must count as a sexual assault?

SpringHeeledJack
19th Jan 2013, 09:01
As Saint Bob Geldof was quoted as saying a few years back, "Any idiot can have a kid, but being a parent is something else", and as has been said already parenting and upbringing are everything. It is ever more difficult to achieve this as more couples are fiscally forced to leave their offspring for ever longer periods in the care of others whilst they work to pay the bills. These 'others' from my observations, seem to be in many cases young females more interested in their smart phones and F-book friends than the children in their care, and overburdened schools where sadly the lowest common denominator leads all too often.

I'd like to think that I'm no prude, but the over-sexualisation of society makes me cringe at times, let alone that of the under-16's, which is patently wrong. The simple fact is that parents can and should exercise limits on their offspring BUT if retailers and the media are offering inappropriate items and images then it should be a matter for the government. If not there will always be customers with no judgement who will consume regardless.



SHJ

Lord Spandex Masher
19th Jan 2013, 09:13
not necessarily. What was the story about a mom giving botox to her 3-yr old? Or was it 4.

Missed that too but surely it goes back to Mom's upbringing?

Mac the Knife
19th Jan 2013, 09:16
Ho ho ho!

And Big Business has taught girls (and women) that men will only be interested in them if their genitals resemble those of preadolescent children.

What a mess!

Mac

:(

Lon More
19th Jan 2013, 09:31
I was recently privy to a discussion between a single mum and the youngest of her three daughters, all of whom who she has done her best for.
Daughter wanted a tattoo and her biggest argument was, "But everybody else has one"
Not my place to butt in, Mum was doing a pretty good job, no rants, no threats, and one of her answers was, "Have you seen them all?" "No, but ...."
Just how much of this is peer pressure? The tramp stamp, the sexy underwear? Not neccessarilly even true that everyone has them, but it is just mouthing off; I wonder how many of us told our mates that Dan Dare was our uncle? :ugh: and as for EastEnders being aspirational :yuk:

hellsbrink
19th Jan 2013, 09:40
Hellsbrink
I'm afraid a large part of the population, and especially those to whom this thread is dedicated are intellectually unable to make that judgement call.
If they could, then they wouldn't be buying gash clothes and allowing their kids to flaunt themselves. In short - the adults have already been brainwashed into believing its socially acceptable.
The concept of self-determination, of self-responsibility fails when faced with the juggernaut brainwashing onslought of modern marketing, advertising and populist media.

But, again, that is hardly the fault of the media, the advertisers or the marketing people, it's solely the fault of those "intellectually challenged" sheeple who fall for that guff.

Ultimately, you cannot blame someone else for the actions of the feckless and stupid, for nobody held a gun to their heads and made them do it. How you change the attitude of these people, however, is a different matter and something I doubt you could do as the same sort of nonsense has been going on for some time.

BTW. There was an 8 year old who got the botox, an English "mum who claimed to be living in San Francisco seemingly wanted daughter to look "perfect" for one of them beauty pageant things they do. Except she later admitted it was all a hoax........ Mom Who Said She Injected Her 8-Year-Old Daughter With Botox Fights to Keep Her Daughter - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/botox-mom-injected-year-entire-story-fake-bid/story?id=13645562)

Temp Spike
19th Jan 2013, 09:41
Probes - Botox? On a baby? Good Grief! Thatís child abuse! I don't think many would see that as quality time.

I had this much older age group in mind anyway. Your original post described sexuality. There is no sexuality in a 3 or 4 year old.

B Fraser
19th Jan 2013, 09:56
This one says that the Daily Wail is a crap newspaper and Biddulph is trying to flog a book.

I can just about remember mini skirts and I certainly remember boob tubes. What's new ?

stuckgear
19th Jan 2013, 10:09
i cant disagree with much of what has been posted so far.

lon your comment:

I was recently privy to a discussion between a single mum and the youngest of her three daughters, all of whom who she has done her best for.
Daughter wanted a tattoo and her biggest argument was, "But everybody else has one"

i'm sure everyone tried that as youngster, i know i did, and the response was usually if x stuck their hand in the fire would you ?

i woulnd't be surprised if many of us over the different generations got that same response too.

but fair play to the parent for standing her ground. too many these days just give in for the sake of it.

charliegolf
19th Jan 2013, 11:02
Temp Spike, in a word - Upbringing.

Yep. Know where your children are at all times. Take the effort to know their friends' parents- collude with them. Say 'no' and have it have a specific meaning. As in, 'that is NOT going to happen'. Educate them in alcohol use, not abuse. And on and on. Never be found to say, "Well they all do it now don't they?"* Act like they are your responsibility FFS.

And breathe...

CG

*spotted Lon's bit above :ok:

probes
20th Jan 2013, 07:49
hellsbrink:
If you would, then how is it the fault of the "chain stores" as they are not forcing you to buy that type of thing or the fault of the magazines for telling you that you must find it acceptable for a child to wear it.
The "blame" for that lies solely with those who do deem it to be acceptable and actually buy the stuff, like those who bought the strings marketed for 9 year olds. Nobody buys it, they stop selling it. But if people buy it then they will just respond to what the "market" wants.
It's easy to blame others, but the true issue lies squarely at "home" where there are those who deem such a thing to be suitable for someone of such an age and absolutely nowhere else.
[my highlight] now correct me if I'm wrong - seems to me that you are for personal responsibility of protecting one's own children or not doing them any harm. How is it then that no blame lies on them who produce stuff that harms children of other people?

Helol
20th Jan 2013, 08:02
Perhaps the immortal words 'You're not going out dressed like that young lady!" or 'Now get upstairs and get changed' are not said quite as often these days...?

I remember wanting to go out with some kind of studded dog collar wrapped round my neck - mother saw it, uttered (well, shouted) those immortal words and sent me upstairs! So much for my 'rebellious punk' phase! :uhoh:

hellsbrink
20th Jan 2013, 08:36
How is it then that no blame lies on them who produce stuff that harms children of other people?

Maybe because the parent(s) is/are the one(s) who should actually be responsible for what their kids wear and read? Would you let your kid look at porn when 12 or would you take measures to stop that happening? Would you have bought a 12 year old daughter "sexy" underwear or not?

It doesn't matter what Argos sells, if people don't buy it then it gets removed from sale. But someone obviously sees there is a market for it, that there are people who think that a 9 year old should be wearing a top with a slogan that can be seen as being sexually provocative, and that ain't down to the marketing but is solely down to the fact that there are "parents" out there who do believe that their kid should be dressed up like Two-Bit Hooker Barbie. That is where the problem lies, not with any manufacturer or publisher.

Now, I don't think that anyone will advocate dressing kids up like the Amish or in a Burqa, but ultimately the issue lies with those who deem such things to be acceptable, the ones who do think a child should be dressed up like a whore, the ones who do allow it to happen. Nobody else.

No market = no products. And the manufacturers ain't the market. Do the maths and you'll see what I mean.

probes
20th Jan 2013, 08:58
:) Ok, hb, you win - I wouldn't (let or buy). And I have read DWail for almost a year now, so I'm part of the evil market :sad:.

Seldomfitforpurpose
20th Jan 2013, 09:00
Hells has a point, they wouldn't make it if folk didn't want to buy it.

A couple of beers here and I am kind of mellow so when I re read this thread I wonder if maybe some of us are displaying the exact same traits our parents displayed when we were young and considered them old fogies.

My folks really did not 'get' the clothes I liked, and I was bloody conservative!

My music taste definitely did not meet with any sort of approval and could only be played when they were out, Sunday's Top 20 radio prog being the exception to that rule.

Fast forward 40 years and I don't get my kids fashion sense, invariably don't get their music or for that matter a whole host of other things.

They do though which for them is all that counts.

I am not for one minute saying that what I see on a daily basis is right but times are a changing and maybe some of us arent.................just saying :ok:

Lon More
20th Jan 2013, 10:36
Dad says ...

Mechta
20th Jan 2013, 11:00
Lon More, I saw that ad yesterday, and can only assume that its meant to portray a step-brother and step-sister. How else can one explain the boy's Northern accent, and the girl's Southern accent?

With regard to what children wear, unless you have just arrived from another planet, you will know that a lot of children buy clothes with their pocket money when going around the town before mum and dad (if there is one) get home. Then those smart enough to avoid an argument, leave the house in something meeting their parents' approval and change into their 'prostitute gear' somewere en route (there's not much to it, so it wouldn't need a big handbag). Of course there are a some parents who think they themselves are being rebellious by dressing their children like that, and a some more who mistakenly believe the easiest way to a peaceful life is to let the kids do whatever they please.

stuckgear
20th Jan 2013, 11:04
I remember wanting to go out with some kind of studded dog collar wrapped round my neck - mother saw it, uttered (well, shouted) those immortal words and sent me upstairs! So much for my 'rebellious punk' phase! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif


you sure it wasn't the Glen Miller vinyl tucked under your arm ?

:}

Lon More
20th Jan 2013, 11:10
How else can one explain the boy's Northern accent, and the girl's Southern accent?


No Idea, that's too deep for me; unless the boy is portraying the voice of reason?

racedo
20th Jan 2013, 12:18
I see it as every parents job to protect kids.............theirs and others.

My littlies way off teens yet................not sure if good or bad.

However I am more that prepared to tell mine or their friends off if they do something wrong. They don't like it then they go home.

Know I will have problem with daugher as she is pig headed but that's not her fault, its genetic from the male side of the family.

Good thing as have a few friends with teenage kids who have behaved properly and not going around as teenage hookers at weekends....................good to have an example of what everybody is not doing.

bluecode
20th Jan 2013, 12:26
It seems every generation is told to worry about the kids by alarmists like Biddulph. Beam him back to the sixties and he'll be warning about mini skirts and long hair on boys. Back to the fifties and it will be something else.

Then there's the pressures and stress of being a teenager mantra. Repeated ad nauseum since the term teenager was invented.

This is just latest scare story. At the end of the day it all comes down to parenting. Bad parents are hardly new.

The breakdown of society is not imminent because teenage girls scandalise their parents yet again.

Milo Minderbinder
20th Jan 2013, 12:54
"mini skirts and long hair on boys"

I remember the long hair, but not boys wearing miniskirts

bluecode
20th Jan 2013, 13:01
Well I do. :p

probes
20th Jan 2013, 13:22
every generation is told to worry about the kids by alarmists like Biddulph
well, the eating disorders, learning disorders and depressive disorders are a bit worse than 'alarmist', aren't they?

hellsbrink
20th Jan 2013, 13:55
You have to define "learning disorders", eating disorders have been known about for hundreds of years and as far as "depression" goes, well, it's been known about since Ancient Greece and probably earlier.

And people like Biddulph have always appeared on a regular basis since all of these things started appearing throughout the history of mankind, and they always claimed something else was at fault instead of looking closer to home.

airship
20th Jan 2013, 14:21
Obviously, the "men and fathers" would all ask themselves the same questions:

1) If they were all (not my own offspring, perhaps...) , then all of it is just simply the degradation of traditional and moral values to be openly discussed.

2) If I thought I could ever get away with "it", I'd be tempted, maybe, just once or more often...?! Perhaps in Thailand or elsewhere. :zzz:

hval
20th Jan 2013, 14:37
hellsbrink,

I basically agree with your comment other than to say "peer pressure", which Lon More mentioned. It is extremely difficult to control a child who is undergoing peer pressure; particularly if bullying is involved.

probes
20th Jan 2013, 14:37
hellsbrink -
as for 'learning disorders', that's something I've had first-hand experience with when teaching teenagers - some 7 yrs back (and the former colleagues say it's getting worse year-by-year, meaning the numbers rising). It used to be troubled boys mostly - and I did use the term somewhat 'poetically', but the idea is that a nice kid (well, teenager) becomes a monster - yelling, not listening, literally unable to concentrate on a task, when there are more than 3 of them - I'm not a psychologist and can't explain why. Also the weird thing was that some 15 yrs ago it used to be about you or your subject (and generally I've had little trouble with discipline through my career; it used to be to show one doesn't like you or 'your English' until you talk one into liking it), but more lately seemed to be more about showing up to others (to show dunno-what. Being an alpha-male?).
Theories are it could be some environmental/teratogenic damage to the foetal brain (not to qualify as real mental disorder yet), wrong food (colouring stuff in candy and sodas e.g), too much sensesless stuff bombarding the brain, too much putering/social networking and too little real socialising, or something else.
Mind you, it's more than just lack of good manners.
What do you mean by "eating disorders have been known about for hundreds of years"?

hellsbrink
20th Jan 2013, 14:41
The other kids can do as much "peer pressure" as they like, as if parents don't buy the stuff then the end result is the same, the pressure and/or bullying will be there. And if they do cave in and buy the stuff, then the pressure and/or bullying will be released using another subject. Ultimately, it will still happen and unless the PARENTS show enough interest so kid actually talks to them, nothing will change.



Oh, and I sure ain't heard many stories about 12-14 year olds being bullied because they didn't dress like a whore. Know of plenty where they were because they DID dress like one, though......

hellsbrink
20th Jan 2013, 14:55
hellsbrink -
as for 'learning disorders', that's something I've had first-hand experience with when teaching teenagers - some 7 yrs back (and the former colleagues say it's getting worse year-by-year, meaning the numbers rising). It used to be troubled boys mostly - and I did use the term somewhat 'poetically', but the idea is that a nice kid (well, teenager) becomes a monster - yelling, not listening, literally unable to concentrate on a task, when there are more than 3 of them - I'm not a psychologist and can't explain why. Also the weird thing was that some 15 yrs ago it used to be about you or your subject (and generally I've had little trouble with discipline through my career; it used to be to show one doesn't like you or 'your English' until you talk one into liking it), but more lately seemed to be more about showing up to others (to show dunno-what. Being an alpha-male?).
Theories are it could be some environmental/teratogenic damage to the foetal brain (not to qualify as real mental disorder yet), wrong food (colouring stuff in candy and sodas e.g), too much sensesless stuff bombarding the brain, too much putering/social networking and too little real socialising, or something else.
Mind you, it's more than just lack of good manners.
What do you mean by "eating disorders have been known about for hundreds of years"?

Eating disorders? I meant what it said. Binge eating has been happening for hundreds of years, we merely gave it a fancy name recently. What we now know as Anorexia has been documented all the way back to the 12th century. So when I say that eating disorders have been known about for hundreds of years, it is because they have been.

Now, learning difficulties. This is always a good one as it's hard not to tread on toes. Now, nobody is saying that dyslexia or similar is not something that should be marginalised. We all know it exists, and I reckon we all know someone who has been afflicted by such a disorder. But these people aren't who you are talking about, are they. No, you're talking about the ones who are indisciplined, the ones who haven't been taught to "respect" others but will DEMAND "respec" from everyone else, or else. You are talking about the ones who have probably never, because of the touchy-feely world we live in, had their arse slapped hard to bring them down to earth, the ones who, as a child, were out of control to the point of being feral. The ones who feel absolutely untouchable because, well, they are thanks to the constant erosion of society and "rules" which used to keep things in check by the very people who believe that a whack on the arse of a kid will scar it for life or turn it into a child abuser later in life, the same sort who believe that a predatory paedophile can be "rehabilitated into society" instead of being strung up by the neck until he doth die.

That has nothing to do with "additives" or being dropped on the head when they were a kid, or any of the other reasons (excuses?) you posted. No, that lies straight at the feet of the parents and their inability to raise a child PROPERLY. And thanks to all the excuses that ave been bandied around for decades, none of these people will ever have to face up to the fact that they, as parents, failed as there are plenty out there who will blame little Johnny's behaviour on him not getting the latest Nike's.

And on that note, we have completed the circle.........

Worrals in the wilds
20th Jan 2013, 14:59
mum and dad (if there is one) get home. Then those smart enough to avoid an argument, leave the house in something meeting their parents' approval and change into their 'prostitute gear' somewere en route (there's not much to it, so it wouldn't need a big handbag).
That SOP has been around a while :E:suspect:. It backfires horribly when you get sprung by your Mum's best friend though. :ouch:

I think neurotic teenage girls have also been around for quite a while. One of the differences is that we're now a lot more aware of things like depression and eating disorders. They get talked about, diagnosed and treated (albeit with varying success), which is a good thing.

As late as the nineties all these conditions flourished, but no one talked about them, so to many people they didn't exist. Out of mind, out of sight...In the Victorian Era Anorexia Nervosa used to be called 'going into a decline' (the dreaded wiki has quite a good history of the disease). Anxiety used to be called nerves or hysterics. None of these conditions are new, any more than advertising and peer pressure.

probes
20th Jan 2013, 15:05
do try to read, will you, hells? :p
I specifically mentioned it is not about upbringing. (and some of them had been slapped more than once and more than hard, actually).
I'm afraid we've entered a new circle.
What we now know as Anorexia has been documented all the way back to the 12th century.
where?

hval
20th Jan 2013, 15:16
hellsbrink,

I sure ain't heard many stories about 12-14 year olds being bullied because they didn't dress like a whore.

Except it is not put like that; is it? Peer pressure to comply with the "in crowd" does occur. I have seen it and read about it.

I agree with you that giving in to children may perpetuate the parents giving in to a child in the future.

hellsbrink
20th Jan 2013, 15:16
where?

Miracle Maidens, and also look for a woman called Catherine of Siena from the 1300's. In these cases, the starvation for irrational reasons was because of a belief that they were somehow more "religious" than those around them (Christianity still has a lot to answer for). Nowadays, it is because the "Cult of Fashion" tells them they will be somehow more "divine" if they do so. That lasted until the 16th century, when it went out of fashion and the Church decided that these women were actually witches and burned them at the stake.

Also, look at what Richard Morton wrote about two cases in 1689, and there are plenty other incidences of the same from the same period.


I specifically mentioned it is not about upbringing. (and some of them had been slapped more than once and more than hard, actually).

The bolded bit negates what the non-bolded bit says, unless you think that the way the parent(s) raised the child, it's, erm, UPBRINGING doesn't count as what you are describing is simple child abuse and not raising a child.

So we're back to the same point again, the abject failure to raise a child properly.

sisemen
20th Jan 2013, 15:24
There is no sexuality in a 3 or 4 year old.

Temp go and have a look in Primark (or Walmart) on the racks for that age group.

You might get a bit of a surprise.

The further surprise is that there are mothers (rarely the fathers) who are willing to buy that kind of stuff for their kids.

hellsbrink
20th Jan 2013, 15:26
Except it is not put like that; is it? Peer pressure to comply with the "in crowd" does occur. I have seen it and read about it.

That would be the bit you kindly left out of your quote, wouldn't it..... :ok:

hval
20th Jan 2013, 15:26
Hellsbrink,

Do you think that the government/s and "liberal" people have to accept the blame? By that I mean: -

1/ Not allowed to physically discipline a child (I am not talking about violence here, but light slaps on backside)
2/ Not allowed to "tell a child off"
3/ Must reason with a child, who in reality wont understand reasoned arguments
4/ Parents who do not want to be parents, but friends
5/ Lack of consistency in telling a child off when the child has done wrong
6/ Lack of consistency from both parents (if two parents household)

These are just a few reasons in my eyes.

I do agree though that parents (generalisation here) need to invest more time in their children, not by purchasing toys but by being with them and taking an interest in them. After all the best reward for children isn't gizmos or sweets; it is a parents love and attention.

hval
20th Jan 2013, 15:27
Hellsbrink
That would be the bit you kindly left out of your quote, wouldn't it

True. I thought I was being clear, but obviously not.

probes
20th Jan 2013, 15:41
comeon, hells, you can't be serious. Victorian women and religious saints versus the pre-teens of today (worried about their weight and looks)??

And I mentioned slapping because you implied some need it.
It was not about upbringing (the cases I was referring). I met their parents as well.

hval
20th Jan 2013, 15:57
Persia,

Not sure what you are trying to write there. May I ask for clarification please.

Persia
20th Jan 2013, 16:10
I could be wrong too!:eek:

probes
20th Jan 2013, 16:11
Persia:
Strange you don't want to know what most women and mothers say
Strange? - not really.
First, men (who sometimes also happen to be fathers) are the target group of that kind of sexualisation mostly;
Second, I've got the impression that most posters here wouldn't fall into the category of 'women and mothers' anyway (which did not prevent Worrals giving her point of view, good to read as usual).
Third, the world-wide range is always interesting.

Seldomfitforpurpose
20th Jan 2013, 16:13
Not sure of the link to married more than once equals bad parenting skills but I suspect I am about to be enlightened :confused:

probes
20th Jan 2013, 16:15
well, everyone's happy then. :E


P.S I've thought asking means you are intrested in what will be said (hopefully), not necessarily being 'in doubt'.

probes
20th Jan 2013, 16:17
Not sure of the link to married more than once equals bad parenting skills
being a husband/wife and being a parent are quite different 'tasks' often.

hval
20th Jan 2013, 16:25
Persia,

What's the relevance of having a go at "Jetblast men"?

I, and most people I know were raised by parents of both sexes. As a father am I not entitled to a view point on how to raise my children? After all, the children were created and raised by both the mother and the father.

As far as I am concerned men and women are supposed to be equal, not as you appear to write "women are right and men are not".

hellsbrink
20th Jan 2013, 16:26
comeon, hells, you can't be serious. Victorian women and religious saints versus the pre-teens of today (worried about their weight and looks)??

Where did I mention Victorian women? I'm talking about MUCH earlier than that, even though the term Anorexia Nervosa was coined in Victorian times to distinguish it from the more common "hysterias". The fact of the matter is that what we now call anorexia has been documented for centuries, and since the 1600's the reasons for it have been the same as they are today. Before then, the irrationality was all about pleasing your God, to show your devotion. Makes no difference what the actual irrationality was, they still starved themselves for irrational reasons including body weight and looks even though they didn't have role models like Victoria Beckham to emulate.

It's nothing new, same as "depressive illnesses" and "learning difficulties". Only thing that is new is the industry built up around them and the fancy words to "label" people with. Unless you are also going to say that the type of depression mentioned by Hippocrates isn't the same either.......

probes
20th Jan 2013, 16:43
has been documented
right, hells. Has been. And is affecting at a younger age, which is especially bad.
P. S who did you mean by Miracle Maidens, then?

hval
20th Jan 2013, 16:48
Persia,

Then I must be extremely dense, I am not understanding your comments.

I do not know the percentage of men to women on PPRuNe. I suspect on Jetblast that there are more men than women who post. You will therefore hear more comments from men than women.

In my opinion a god parent is a good parent - irrespective of sex.

As for single mothers. Yes, well. In Glasgow it is not unknown for young, single women to get pregnant so as to get ahead on the housing list. I also hear of examples where a couple separate, the female half of the couple gets to keep the children and denies the father any access what so ever.

I hear, and read about bad parenting on behalf of both sexes. I have seen examples of poor parenting (my opinion) on behalf of both sexes.

I agree that there are cases of men who avoid children and the responsibilities at all costs, but ditto for females.

sitigeltfel
20th Jan 2013, 16:50
From Private Eye...

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/sitigeltfel/Celebcondensed_zps59160d22.gif

Tableview
20th Jan 2013, 17:04
It's a circular argument. The kids dress as they do because of peer pressure. And why do their peers start? .... it's the chicken and egg situation.

As a father of a teenage boy, I have to say I don't like seeing him wearing trousers with the crutch halfway to his knees, but he tells me it's the fashion. Most of his peers dress the same, but it's the dress code of some of the girls at the school that worries me. If I saw them on a street corner I'd think they were hookers - luckily I haven't yet propositioned one only to be told : "Oh aren't you 'x's dad?"

I am in Chester, a genteel up-market town. There's a night-club just across the road from my hotel and walking back after dinner last night I was amazed, bearing in mind that the temperature was -4c and there is snow on the ground, to see girls in microskirts and boobs hanging out ..... and mostly, too fat for it to look anything other than unappetising. Not to mention the high heels and platform shoes that make most of them look over 6 foot!

Lon More
20th Jan 2013, 17:30
Tableview wrote I am in Chester, a genteel up-market town.
You might like to read this (http://www.chavtowns.co.uk/2005/05/chesterhome-of-the-not-so-subtle-chav/). Look closely enough anywhere though, and it's not difficult to find them.

Persia
20th Jan 2013, 17:35
Fathers.....

Lock up your daughters....!

hval
20th Jan 2013, 17:38
Persia,

Fathers.....

Lock up your daughters....!

Yes; and throw away the key. Fathers know what young men are like.

hval
20th Jan 2013, 17:51
Persia,

It's exactly what I did with my daughters. They are both aged 120 and never been allowed outside of the house.

I didn't take my blinkers of. What you originally wrote did not appear to be what you wrote later; or at least to me.

FullOppositeRudder
20th Jan 2013, 21:38
Am I alone in thinking that this thread is being trolled for all it's worth? :hmm:

However the initial ambit is valid. I was at a major sporting event yesterday amongst probably 50,000 spectators. I could not help noticing how many 11 or 12 year old girls had (been) tarted up to look 17 or 18 - often with their obviously approving mother with them.

My disillusionment was complete when I observed three year old boy immaculately dressed shouting "F**k you!" to everyone who walked past. :sad:

Apart from that, I enjoyed the cycling immensely. :ok:

The times, they are a changin'....

Milo Minderbinder
20th Jan 2013, 23:03
In girl world you can dress like a complete slut - YouTube

MagnusP
21st Jan 2013, 09:08
you sure it wasn't the Glen Miller vinyl tucked under your arm ?

Vinyl? VINYL? Shellac in them days, and 78rpm. :ok: