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View Full Version : Release of hostages Algerian style.


doubleu-anker
17th Jan 2013, 19:13
BBC News - Algeria crisis: PM postpones Europe speech and warns of 'bad news' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21064114)

Seems like they have gone in, like a bull in a china shop, with mass slaughter as the outcome.

Reminds me of the time when the Eygptians "liberated" the hostages in a standoff at Athens airport, years ago.

con-pilot
17th Jan 2013, 19:18
Right now it looks like nobody knows what happened, those that do, I guess, are not talking.

Never the less, it doesn't look good for the hostages, no matter how one looks at it.

Should have hired the Israelis.

stephenkeane
17th Jan 2013, 19:28
Should have got the S.A.S. the best of the best

Cheerio
17th Jan 2013, 19:34
Just back from Algeria yesterday...

The imperative for the Algerian authorities isn't a western style 'rescue'. They have to be seen to be tough and decisive. Their priority was to go in hard, retake the facility, and kill all the attackers. To do otherwise would be seen as weakness in the region. They couldn't have done anything else. Very sad for those just doing a job for their company.
But this has happened before and will happen again. Its just the nature of the place.

stuckgear
17th Jan 2013, 19:42
Its just the nature of the place.


indeed, spent a bit of time in that part of Algeria when the GIA were more 'visible' on the intl. stage.

CityofFlight
17th Jan 2013, 19:45
Granted, I'm not there, don't have intel, but....how the hell could an air attack not kill hostages? If the Algerian forces were wanting to show brute strength, they sure accomplished it by killing 35 of the hostages. :ugh:

stuckgear
17th Jan 2013, 19:49
oh dear.. where's Temp Spike.. i'm sure input on this thread would *cough* insightful!

CityofFlight
17th Jan 2013, 19:51
Why, Stuckgear....would you feel his input is needed here? Don't understand.:confused:

Lonewolf_50
17th Jan 2013, 19:56
CoF, I noted the sarcasm dripping off the page as I read that. :E

Reminds me of a Russian response to hostages back in 2004. Did the Algerians get training from the Russians on such stuff?

Algerian Interior Minister Daho Ould Kablia said the kidnappers were Algerian and operating under orders from Mokhtar Belmokhtar, a senior commander of al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) until late last year.
Might this be related to the nose bloodying in Mali, or do y'all think this is a separate issue? :confused:

KAG
17th Jan 2013, 20:00
Should have got the S.A.S. the best of the best

The GIGN is officially the best of the best, they teach the world:

The GIGN was selected by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) to teach the special forces of the other member states in hostage-rescue exercises aboard planes.

;)

Juud
17th Jan 2013, 20:03
With Cheerio on this one.

Yes it is to an extent in the nature of the region.
The Algerian government needs/wants to send a clear and unambiguous signal to any other terrorists that actions like these this are a road to nowhere.
So the earlier and heavier they go in, the better from their point if view.

It is a different mind-set.
Something petroleum workers, like everybody else who regularly travels the ME, are well aware of.

The poor families at home, the wait must be heart breaking.

PS: KAG could you please stop waiving your willy?

Lonewolf_50
17th Jan 2013, 20:09
KAG, too bad those gents were not the ones running the Op. Looks like they have a nice cv.
GIGN is a special operations unit of the French Armed Forces.
Part of the National Gendarmerie, it is trained to perform counter-terrorist and hostage rescue missions in France or anywhere else in the world.
The GIGN was formed in 1973. In 2007 the original GIGN absorbed the Gendarmerie Parachute Squadron (EPIGN) and the thirty gendarmes of the GSPR to form a "new" expanded GIGN.

Since its creation, the group has
taken part in over 1000
operations,
liberated over 500 hostages,
arrested over 1000
suspects,
and killed 12 terrorists.

The unit has seen two members killed in action, and seven in training, since its foundation, and two of its dogs in action and one in training.

Past actions include:
The liberation of 30 school children from a school bus captured by the FLCS (Front de Libération de la Côte des Somalis, "Somali Coast Liberation Front") in Djibouti in 1976.
Planning the liberation of diplomats from the French embassy in San Salvador in 1979 (the hostage-takers surrendered before the assault was conducted).
GIGN commandos were instrumental in regaining control during the Grand Mosque Seizure in Mecca, Saudi Arabia in November and December 1979.
Arrest of a Corsican terrorist of the National Liberation Front of Corsica in Fesch Hostel in 1980.
Liberation of hostages of the Ouvéa cave hostage taking in Ouvea in the New Caledonia in May 1988.
Protection of the 1992 Olympic Winter Games in Albertville.
In December 1994, the liberation of 229 passengers and crew from Air France Flight 8969 in Marseille.
Arrest of Bob Denard in 1995 in Comoros.
Operations in Bosnia to arrest persons indicted for war crimes.
Seizing of 6 Somali pirates and recovery of part of the ransom after making sure "Le Ponant" luxury yacht hostages were freed in the coast of Puntland in Somalia on the Gulf of Aden. In conjunction with French Commandos Marines (Naval commandos) in April 2008.

The GIGN was selected by the International Civil Aviation Organisation
(ICAO) to teach the special forces of the other member states in hostage-rescue exercises aboard planes.

doubleu-anker
17th Jan 2013, 20:11
If I was a hostage and still alive I would find it hard to agree, with the go in hard and quick mindset.

I agree a clear message must be sent but have been far too hasty in sending it.

stuckgear
17th Jan 2013, 20:14
Might this be related to the nose bloodying in Mali, or do y'all think this is a separate issue? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif


nope.. related.. the hostage taking was in response to the ahem western violation of Mali

see post here: http://www.pprune.org/7636500-post76.html

sitigeltfel
17th Jan 2013, 20:17
It is a different mind-set.
Something petroleum workers, like everybody else who regularly travels the ME, are well aware of.

As mostly "infidels", they are expendable.

Ancient Mariner
17th Jan 2013, 20:19
At Utøya Norwegian police and politicians were criticised for acting too late and too little. Now these same Norwegian politicians and talking heads are criticising Algeria for the opposite. Karma.
When you accept a job, often with extra pay, in these countries, you also accept that the local authorities are responsible for your welfare. If you expect your country to come to your aid, stay at home.
Per

stuckgear
17th Jan 2013, 20:21
Should have hired the Israelis.

nice one con..

KAG
17th Jan 2013, 20:22
Lonewolf50:They are the exact opposite of their Algerian counterparts: they liberated more than 500 hostages with very limited killing even among the terrorists whom they prefer to arrest.

The Algerians liberate hostages like you go to war: shooting everywhere.


Speaking of that, if I were an hostage, I think I wouldn't want my government to negotiate with the terrorists (and I am fully aware this is easy to say that on a keyboard when confy at home), if the Algerian method were used each time by everybody in the world, we would have less terrorists taking hostages right?
That's a valid question right?

stuckgear
17th Jan 2013, 20:23
When you accept a job, often with extra pay, in these countries, you also accept that the local authorities are responsible for your welfare. If you expect your country to come to your aid, stay at home.


when i was going to algeria, the Foriegn Office gave me a call and said, paraphrased, 'we advise you not to go there and if $hit goes down, you're on your own bud.'

22 Degree Halo
17th Jan 2013, 21:08
They needed this hard bastard.

http://media.desura.com/cache/images/members/1/301/300228/thumb_940x3000/2286951392_41f39a85091.jpg

Now RIP ^

AlpineSkier
17th Jan 2013, 21:09
@KAG

Watching TV earlier this evening and one commentator said".. the Algerians are like the British and the Russians - no negotiations with terrorists "

It's a tough policy and I don't know (as a civilian on the outside ) if it does reduce hostage-taking : Germany has had quite a lot of hostages ransomed relative to their exposure and Germany ( as well as France ) does pay off hostage-takers, but I guess if the Brits/Russians etc are the only "available" foreigners, that will be the governing factor.

dead_pan
17th Jan 2013, 21:52
When you accept a job, often with extra pay, in these countries, you also accept that the local authorities are responsible for your welfare. If you expect your country to come to your aid, stay at home.

Hmm, I bet this particular penny is dropping in western compounds throughout the Magreb. Maybe its time they construct some heavily-fortified inner keep that workers can take refuge in should the bad guys over-power whatever security they have in place.

Who knows whether any of the various western specialists in hostage rescue would have done any better - for all we know the terrorists may have started killing hostages and the Algerians were forced to act. The truth will no doubt dribble out over the next few days.

RatherBeFlying
17th Jan 2013, 22:07
CBC Radio just reported 41 hostages and 11 insurgents killed.

The Algerian government has previously demonstrated little concern for civilian life and their priority is obviously demonstrating that there's no future for those inclined to take up arms against it.

They will have a difficult problem staffing these facilities unless they put up some serious perimeter protection.

BenThere
17th Jan 2013, 22:34
I hold at the highest level of respect Fabrizio Quattrocchi, who early in this war declared, "Now you'll see how an Italian dies!".

At once establishing his moral superiority over his cowardly captors, about to execute him.

Always found it strange how the Guardian, New York Times and such took so much outrage over Abu Ghraib and the bruiseless hazing that occurred there, but didn't want to make such a big deal of Fabrizio's heroism in the face of impending death. Such a tragic missplacement of sentiments.

Matari
18th Jan 2013, 02:39
KAG, why the petty insult? Looks like LoneWolf was agreeing with you on the prowess of the GIGN.

stuckgear
18th Jan 2013, 07:25
Hmm, I bet this particular penny is dropping in western compounds throughout the Magreb. Maybe its time they construct some heavily-fortified inner keep that workers can take refuge in should the bad guys over-power whatever security they have in place.



great in theory. but Benghazi would dictate otherwise.

western companies operating in places like that do have some good in country security. not going into details for obvious reasons.

Firestorm
18th Jan 2013, 07:41
In addition to what Cheerio said, which is spot on from my experience of Algeria, I expect that the Algerians are only too well aware of the mess that Western military intervention has made of several countries in recent years, not least their immediate neighbours, Libya.

Foreign countries operating in Algeria pay a lot of money to Algeria for military detachments to guard and protect their operations. Algeria makes something in the order of 95% of it's GDP from the oil industry, and a large proportion of that from the foreign partnerships and contractors who make so much of it possible. They did not allow a very large body of foreign security staff, those that were there were in the liaison and management role, not the provision of security, and no foreigners were allowed to be armed (certainly in the regions where I worked) although some Algerian security staff (as opposed to military) were armed. I know that the situation made the security managers uncomfortable, but that was what they had to live with, and for the most part it sort of worked.

There were a few instances of banditry and camps being raided by armed gangs. It was my understanding that most of the gangs of bandits were rough police and militia, but the AQ and associated threat was very different in those days, the late 1990s, despite the bombing of US embassies in parts of Africa, and the return attacks by America.

Lon More
18th Jan 2013, 07:48
Their ball, their rules.
If the message gets across that if you seize hostages you will die then the hostages were not killed in vain.

toffeez
18th Jan 2013, 07:52
SQ 117 (1991):

"At 06:45, the (Pakistani) hijackers gave a last 5-minute deadline, and issued a threat to kill one passenger every ten minutes if their demands were still not met. With three minutes to go, orders were given to initiate the assault: the Singapore Armed Forces Commando Formation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces_Commando_Formation) stormed the plane in a 30-second sweep, killing all four hijackers with no injuries to hostages. The plane was completely secured by 06:50."
.

angels
18th Jan 2013, 07:57
None of us knows right now what has gone on, so my tuppenceworth -- pure speculation of course.

There were reports that the fighting started when the terrorists tried to leave the refinery with the hostages in vehicles. A firefight started -- and for all we know is still going on.

I don't think the fighting started as the result of a botched rescue attempt. Someoen saw something, opened fire and it all kicked off.

KAG
18th Jan 2013, 08:45
Matari, I agree too with Lonewolf: I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

KAG
18th Jan 2013, 08:49
Alpine: yes, I beleive negociating with the terrorists is a mistake.
The more you negociate, the more they take new hostages.

con-pilot
18th Jan 2013, 15:48
Alpine: yes, I beleive negociating with the terrorists is a mistake.
The more you negociate, the more they take new hostages.

I slightly and respectfully disagree.

You negotiate with terrorists just long enough to move forces into place to the kill the terrorists and hopefully free the hostages unharmed.

But never to give into the terrorist's demands.

Don't see much reason to capture any terrorists either, except a couple for interrogation purposes. If practicable.

radeng
18th Jan 2013, 16:02
Con-pilot

Take them alive, and interrogate. Follow this by execution in a very painful public way 'pour encourager les autres', especially if a smearing of the face with animal grease of one sort or another means them having a belief in going to hell.

airship
21st Jan 2013, 12:16
In the immediate aftermath of the Algerian armed forces' intervention and initial reports of important casualties amongst the hostages: Various countries including Norway, Japan and perhaps even the UK and USA more discreetly, were quite vociferous in their admonitions concerning (in so many words) the Algerians' premature and poorly-prepared / executed intervention resulting in the loss of so many hostages. Some countries presumably rapidly summonned the Algerian ambassadors to their countries for an "ear-full"...

How strange therefore, that just a few days later, most of these countries have "quietly back-pedalled" in their previously quite tough criticism of the Algerians' intervention (inadequately/poorly trained, "gung-ho", "gun-totting clowns" with little concern for the hostages...? Why is that? Did I miss something?

PS. Juud wrote in response to KAG's statement that the French GIGN are the world's best...: PS: KAG could you please stop waiving your willy? I know what you mean't to say: "KAG could you please stop waving your willy?". Or else, "KAG could you please waive your willy?". Do you think KAG can appreciate the subtlety...?! :ok:

500N
21st Jan 2013, 12:22
22 Degree Halo
Agree :ok:


"Reminds me of the time when the Eygptians "liberated" the hostages in a standoff at Athens airport, years ago."

Or the Germans with the Olympics before they got serious and trained
- as is the case with any group.

All the top groups are good, SAS, SEALS, GIGN, GSG9 et al,
after all, they all cross train !

Solid Rust Twotter
21st Jan 2013, 13:06
22DH, plenty of those boys still around (not counting the bloke down the pub who was second man on the balcony). The new generation are by no means lagging in that department. As mentioned by 500N, they're up to speed and familiar with how each operates, so cobbling together something shouldn't be a problem. The hangups occur on a political and governmental level.

B Fraser
21st Jan 2013, 13:40
There are enough people claiming to have been on that balcony that you would think they went to the Albert Hall by mistake.

If you are ever unlucky enough to need rescuing, just pray that your rescuers come from Hereford or Poole.

Cheerio
21st Jan 2013, 14:01
It's worth wikipedia'ing the Air France Algiers hijack about 10 years ago to refresh your memory. It's quite a story.

Air France Flight 8969 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969)

parabellum
22nd Jan 2013, 00:08
The GIGN was selected by the International Civil Aviation Organisation
(ICAO) to teach the special forces of the other member states in hostage-rescue exercises aboard planes.


Did they now, well they are just a bit late.

In the mid seventies a Lufthansa B737 was Hi jacked to the Middle East, two specialist from the SAS were there too, advising and participating.

I thought the Egyption cluster fukc happened in Malta?

500N
22nd Jan 2013, 00:16
parabellum

Their is a TV Doco on that hijacking and the two SAS men
and what they did - and some funny things that happened on the way
about going through customs et al.

parabellum
22nd Jan 2013, 00:39
Yup, saw that, it seemed pretty authentic to me. Based in Bahrain at the time flying the B737 when the aircraft came via Abu Dhabi. A LH 707 was their too, blinds all down etc. The traffic manager said for a supposedly empty aircraft it didn't half take on a lot of catering!