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highland cow
13th Jan 2013, 00:20
Jetstar does it again... see Jetstar passengers trapped in Hawaii (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/jetstar-passengers-trapped-in-hawaii-20130113-2cn8b.html)

I wonder what the real delay was and what was the problem. Looks like they are learning from BCal in the old days.

IAW
13th Jan 2013, 01:36
More like Jetstar's feral passengers have done it again.

Ollie Onion
13th Jan 2013, 03:21
I am sorry but 2.5 hours is actually quite quick to deplane everyone after this kind of problem. It is stated in the article that the aircraft had left the gate and had to return, so basically the whole flight was boarded, departed the gate, encountered a technical problem which would have then taken a bit of time to troubleshoot before a decision to return to the gate. Engineers onboard who would try to rectify the problem before saying it is a no go. Then amongst all this you have to arrange to return the passengers to the terminal, I once had a FOUR hour delay whilst a major international airport management decided where we could offload our passengers to as they had all cleared international immigration and would need to be processed inbound again, problem was that their was only a minimum of customs and immigration in the terminal due to no significant arrivals or departures during that particular time. I just can't understand how these sorts of things become 'news' stories, are modern day passengers infact treated so well with a very reliable service that they think it is the end of the world when a normal occurrence like a technical fault delays their travel??

A passenger had a go at me about 3 months ago as we had to return to the terminal as our destination had closed due to unforcast fog, she accused me of lying stating that 'her sister who lived about 45km from the destination airport couldn't see any fog'!! How do you please these people!! Perhaps the jetstar flight should have just ignored the fault and carried on :ugh:

Cargo744
13th Jan 2013, 03:53
Ollie, there is no pleasing those people to answer your question. They are only interested in having their 15min of fame and with social networks and the 24hr news cycle they are given the platform to do so. This is a complete nonsense story... would they have rathered the aircraft took off with a known fault?

Ixixly
13th Jan 2013, 04:18
In this sort of situation why does the aircraft not return to the terminal when it looks like there is going to be a delay to fix the fault and have everyone deplane and wait at the gate?

Surely it can't be an immigration thing as they are simply leaving the aircraft and then waiting in same area they would have been after just prior to boarding?

Sunfish
13th Jan 2013, 05:22
Speaking as an occasional passenger, the anguish is never primarily the delay, it is Lack of Communication from the cockpit to the passengers about what the problem is, what the crew are doing to try to fix it and what the expected possible outcomes are. People hate uncertainty.

And, wait for it......Qantas crews used to be, (and may still be I hope) absolutely superb in performing this task and defusing passenger anger and disappointment before it even starts.

Jetstar? Perhaps not so much.

moa999
13th Jan 2013, 05:31
So you would expect the Captain to say....

Ah passengers
"Unfortunately we have a light that won't go out. it's the APU for the SOs USB port. Unfortunately it means a risk that the power won't work to his iPad meaning he can't play Angry Birds all flight... Obviously with your safety in mind we will need to get it fixed.
We will try rebooting it from this end by kicking every panel we can find. If that fails we might have to go back to gate, but we don't know whether the airport has the part, let alone a spare engineer or a spare gate.
Worst case scenario is will have to sit hear a few hours in 50 degree heat, myself and the SO will go out of hours, so we might have to divert to Timbuktu, or we might have to offload and make you sleep in the terminal as there are no beds due to the power outage from the cyclone.
Anyhow we look forward to a good flight, if we ever get off the ground."

Half the time the issue is the unknowns.

AEROMEDIC
13th Jan 2013, 05:40
How true this is ..!!

I HAVE asked senior cabin staff to make an announcement to all pax, only to be told that THEY don't know what is causing the delay.
Sometimes it seems that being in possession of information that matters is ALL that matters.

Capn Bloggs
13th Jan 2013, 06:26
Moa9,
I hope that was tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise, you have a lot to learn before you make it to the left hand seat...

I HAVE asked senior cabin staff to make an announcement to all pax, only to be told that THEY don't know what is causing the delay.
You should have asked "why are we delayed?" When they say "we don't know" you then say "could you please find out and let us know". Hopefully even the simplest staff should then head to or handball the communicating to the cockpit.

Communications/Pax PR is a big issue these days. Get into it! :ok:

topend3
13th Jan 2013, 07:26
Standing in the JQ queue at Denpasar recently and a flight to Melbourne had been indefinitely delayed....of course there are the usual cries of "I'll never fly Jetstar again!!!" until they are $200 cheaper than the next airline :)

This one sounds like an exaggeration :)

The Green Goblin
13th Jan 2013, 07:39
Moa9,
I hope that was tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise, you have a lot to learn before you make it to the left hand seat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeromedic
I HAVE asked senior cabin staff to make an announcement to all pax, only to be told that THEY don't know what is causing the delay.
You should have asked "why are we delayed?" When they say "we don't know" you then say "could you please find out and let us know". Hopefully even the simplest staff should then head to or handball the communicating to the cockpit.

Communications/Pax PR is a big issue these days. Get into it!

Obviously bloggs you don't fly overseas, therefore it's not so simple.

Try having a problem that's not so easily identified in an Asian port. First there is the language barrier with engineering, the check-in staff are contractors, most speak little english and there is only one part in the competition airlines stores that you need (once the solution is found), however the part numbers are different.

You then need to get someone out of bed in Australia to get the paperwork rolling, chat with the Asian MRO, follow through with the required paperwork and keep everyone else informed. This alone could take five hours.

The reason why information doesn't flow is there is no information to flow. It's best to say little, than the wrong thing!

The airlines have an action plan with this type of thing assessed by a matrix. They inform the crew as the information comes to them. The crew end up on the ride too.

After all this, the crew then run out of hours (which is about the only thing they have control over, whether to extend), there is no reserve and everyone gets sent home.

That's life in the Airlines.

Whiskery
13th Jan 2013, 08:47
Bloggs does not fly overseas, unless on holidays.
Moa9 was obviously " tongue in cheek" Bloggs!!!

dodo whirlygig
13th Jan 2013, 09:49
Try having a problem that's not so easily identified in an Asian port. First there is the language barrier with engineering, the check-in staff are contractors, most speak little english and there is only one part in the competition airlines stores that you need (once the solution is found), however the part numbers are different.

You then need to get someone out of bed in Australia to get the paperwork rolling, chat with the Asian MRO, follow through with the required paperwork and keep everyone else informed. This alone could take five hours.


All this equals LCC's. Proper airlines on the other hand ...........................

teresa green
13th Jan 2013, 09:50
IXixly, how long have Australians been "deplaneing"? Americans "deplane" Australians simply disembark. One "expert" said there was no air conditioning, and the wait was 3 hours (and hoping for a refund) JQ said it was 2 hours and the air conditioning was functioning. Personally from experience I would prefer to sit and read, or gaze into space if I was the PAX rather than become part of a unfortunate experience. I would also like a sign made up and flash it up on all in flight entertainment screens." Shite Happens, sorry but our policy is to get you home in one piece. All complaints should be directed to the QF jet base on the 92 floor. :ugh:

teresa green
13th Jan 2013, 10:14
Not always Sunfish I was on a JQ flight from NTL to OOL or I was suposed to be. The A/C had a problem at the Goldie, it was fixed or suposed to have been but half way through the flight the problem started again, ( (I had no privy to the problem but there was much opening and closing of cowlings, much engine run ups, and much shaking of heads. Finally we boarded, still with much discussion between Skipper and LAME, and then the Skipper refused to accept the aircraft, (so would have I, I imagine). So off we trooped, for the elderly and people will little kids, much effort was made to get them on a Virgin flight or alt on the QF NTL/BNE. The rest of us got meal vouchers a full explanation, a cab chit back to NTL for those who preferred to have another go the next day etc. It was handled with professionalism and politeness. THEN when we finally arrived in OOL, no bay. You know the feeling, so WTF do you want me to do with the PAX? Of course take them on a cooks tour of the taxiways pointing out places of interest like the rabbit burrows, and perhaps the desalination plant. Our Skipper by then had had a gutful oddly enough, and explained thru gritted teeth that his day had not been as smooth as usual, but his apologies all round for the inconvenience, the hold up, and hoped it had not ruined the start of their holiday. Full marks to the crew of JQ 492, who handled the whole thing beautifully and also to the NTL ground staff.:D

Ixixly
13th Jan 2013, 12:04
Sorry Teresa, wasn't trying to say it was wrong or anything like that, i'm just curious as to why they wouldn't simply "DISEMBARK" and have the passengers sit around at the gate instead of on the Aircraft. I sort of understand that in some situations there may not be a gate available for whatever reasons, perhaps its a hassle to organise to get them all off and then back on again due to staff requirements, but it just seems like it would give them less reasons to whinge about the situation.

Personally I'd rather be back in the terminal where I can go for a walk or whatever but i'm guessing there must be some good reasons for keeping them onboard instead.

Capn Bloggs
13th Jan 2013, 12:43
Actually Goblin, it doesn't much matter whether one is overseas or not (English-speaking Hawaii in this case). I on more than one occasion have stood in front of 100+ punters on the PA explaining the situation, as little as I knew at the time and how unknown as it seemed. When given even some small tidbits (there's enough in your post above to keep a speech-writer going for hours) the majority of the punters will be happy, or at least understanding and not totally feral.

Say nothing? Expect to be criticised by the punters. Any 4-bars can be the best button-pusher or saviour of the day when the effo accidentally tips it up on it's side. A real "commander" is a "leader" of the SLF as well.

Information Charles
13th Jan 2013, 13:19
Personally I'd rather be back in the terminal where I can go for a walk or whatever but i'm guessing there must be some good reasons for keeping them onboard instead.

That's what they're worried about. The people that feel it necessary to wonder off for a smoke or whatever, go awol, and then when reboard another delay is encountered trying to find said creatures of habit :E:ok:

Sent from my iPad

Pimp Daddy
13th Jan 2013, 23:15
It is a very hard call to make.

I've seen passengers wander off home to pick up something they forget when a flight has been disembarked (domestic obviously).

But organising passengers is like herding cats at the best of times!

But then there are things like is there a gate for you to return to, or have you been directed to a standoff.

Your engineers try their best, could be 2 components, one is 45min to change other is 3hrs - 45mins in the seats is preferable to get them off, they disappear, get them on, but if that doesn't fix it then its 3hrs, except what do you do if you're on the standoff?

Like had been said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Jethro Gibbs
14th Jan 2013, 00:03
Hang on AJ told everyone planes don,t need fixing anymore they fix themselves .:ok:

Ngineer
14th Jan 2013, 00:57
Yeah mate, just like a new car. Needs very little maintenance. I totally agree. Must be somethin fishy going on. Probably just an opportunity to bash the poor old ngineers again.:ouch:

Taildragger67
14th Jan 2013, 05:12
Was once stuck on the ground at LGW / EGKK for 4 hours.

Skipper got on the PA and described the basics of the problem (problem with undercarriage) and stated it was being worked on. Said that updates would be provided every 30 mins or when there was new news.

Sure enough, roughly every 30 mins, either the skipper or F/O got on and said along the lines of "nothing new to report, problem still being worked on and we'll let you know when we have progress". One time was problem identified, new part being requisitioned.

Then after 3 hours it was new part being fitted, it'll take about an hour.

Everyone was reasonably happy because at least there was some info flow.

gordonfvckingramsay
14th Jan 2013, 06:01
If they don't like it, don't fly with J*, simple, it is a LCC and they chose to go with them :ugh:.

Apparently they have no problem filling seats in any case.

The airline said they brought the tri-weekly route back because of high demand

The Green Goblin
14th Jan 2013, 08:06
BTW Guys, the Jetstar A330s come under the Qantas system of maintenance, are maintained by Qantas and overseen by Qantas.

Bloggs, I never said you don't speak to them at all, I simply stated you don't give them false information. You tell them what you know and sometimes that is nothing.

Every time we have a breakdown we go back to the cabin and address the passengers on the cabin interphone face to face.

We usually update them in person in the terminal on a regular basis. We take control when it is appropriate to do so.

Pterois Volitans
14th Jan 2013, 09:27
I must correct you The Green Goblin, the Jetstar A330 are maintained by Jetstar Engineers NOT Qantas engineers!
Yes sometimes J* ask Qantas to assist or carry out an "A check" for them BUT at that time the aircraft is then signed over to QF maintainance.
PV

Lodown
14th Jan 2013, 16:16
Ixixly, many times it's not an easy matter to return to the gate. All of the gates are heavily utilised. Once pushed back, the gate is allocated to other aircraft. The last thing needed is for an aircraft to be parked and occupying a gate for an unknown length of time for no other reason than passenger convenience. It creates a bottleneck and typically causes delays through all other operations.

LeadSled
15th Jan 2013, 00:32
Folks,
While I am no fan of Onestar, Honolulu is a particular nightmare for anybody, once you have pushed back and started up --- for quarantine and customs you have "departed" .
Organizing an "instant" arrival in HNL, especially if it is a late night/early morning departure just doesn't happen, goes double if "your" quarantine staff have clocked off and gone home as soon as the last aircraft door was closed.
I am all too familiar with the "process".
Tootle pip!!

Ixixly
15th Jan 2013, 23:09
LeadSled, this is what confuses me a little, by returning the Gate, and remaining there, are they not already through immigration and security therefore no longer requiring them to be around? Or is there some funny thing with Immigration that as soon as an aircraft leaves the gate, even if they don't get airborne, and return to the gate they are now an "Arrival" and therefor have to be processed?

I would have thought that by confining the passengers to the gate or at least the "Secured Area" (Can't quite remember the terminology for an area in an airport that comes after customs and security) that therefore they would not have to be involved?

LoDown, thanks for confirming what I thought, the Gates would be the first obstacle to overcome. Does anyone happen to know how most airports charge for gates? is there a one off fee or there is it based on how long they are there? Or is based on some sort of contract where they own the gates?

jportzer
18th Jan 2013, 05:16
I would have thought that by confining the passengers to the gate or at least the "Secured Area" (Can't quite remember the terminology for an area in an airport that comes after customs and security) that therefore they would not have to be involved?US airports do not have outbound immigration/customs. The US has no regulations that require it, and hence all outbound international flights operate from normal terminals with the exact same security setup as any domestic flight. Immigration and customs only applies to arrivals.

(This is one reason you can't transit the US between two other international destinations, for example Australia to Canada, without entering US immigration - there's no "secure" transit area where you can remain separated from the normal domestic terminal.)

As far as the JQ flight not returning to the gate earlier, I suspect it's much more about gate and staff availability, and the potential to lose passengers who wander off. Although I seem to remember HNL's "overseas terminal" being deserted in the morning when QF and JQ arrive and depart, as most flights are to the mainland US and depart in the evening, so it seems unlikely gate availability would be a problem.

The US has a "passenger bill of rights" that issues steep fines for US airlines remaining on the "tarmac" for more than 3 hours. In accordance with this, airports are now set up to ensure that a gate, or at least a parking area with buses, is available for flights after 2-2.5 hours of delays. Although the JQ flight wouldn't have been subject to this rule, the delay is considered acceptable by US standards so I don't think the passengers really have much to complain about.

Keg
18th Jan 2013, 05:30
The question I'd like answered is how much did J* pay Qantas for the rescue mission?

ALAEA Fed Sec
18th Jan 2013, 10:56
The question I'd like answered is how much did J* pay Qantas for the rescue mission?

Nothing. They most likely charged Qantas for the hotels and other expenses because the plane Qantas gave them (the Jetstar 330 that broke) wasn't working properly.