Flying free on Ryanair.

[tallinnman]

I notice that Ryanair flight crew can position on Ryanair flights free of charge with a requirement to travel in uniform I believe.

Are APD and local government taxes levied on these flights or are they actually FOC?

[McBruce]

FOC otherwise it would never happen.

You are listed down as a member of operating crew. The manual states its for work purposes only, must be in uniform and be fit to fly.

[tallinnman]

Are the duty hours logged?

Thought not - so basically another potential evasion of taxes/charges by Ryanair.

Appreciate the beneficiary might appear to be the positioning crew but can't help feeling that MOL is artificially reducing his cost base as crews are shuttling to/from various bases, albeit on days off, FOC.

So he can have aircraft in bases with a high cost of living knowing that many pilots allocated to that base will be able to accept lower salaries than local carriers pay their flight crew as they will fly in and out FOC and rent rooms locally for duty periods.

If there was an additional financial cost of this positioning for flight crew it might make it harder for Ryanair to staff new bases.

[captplaystation]

Before you stir the :mad: and make life even harder for Ryanair pilots, please bear in mind that Spanish Crew holding a valid Spanish Crew Certificate can do this on any Spanish carrier, not just their own.
Much as it was in the USA pre 9/11.

Your "contribution" is not particularly welcome on a pilots website.

[victorc10]

And it does not actually work like that either, renting for five days at a time is more expensive than renting full time.

[1000ft Cruiser]

I don't know anyone who has ever rented a room for 5 days out of base flying. Pretty much everyone uses a local hotel or B&B, apart from a few occasions when people know somebody local.

Don't get what your issue is with jumpseat travel for operational reasons. It's neither new nor exclusive to FR.

[maggot738]

Why is it that so many people who have absolutely no connection with FR have to stir things up. Mind your own business and go away.

[737 Jockey]

Jumpseating is generally a miserable experience, and I thank The Lord I don't have to do it too much these days. I prefer to pay to travel with easyJet, if the connections work for me.

As an aside, with the crappy online booking system and general poor treatment by gate staff, it amazes me that we have so many passengers!!!

[JW411]

In my last airline (I was there for nearly 20 years) free jumpseat travel for aircrew into and out of a series of flying duties (which could last for anything up to 11 days) was allowed. This made the job so much easier to do and it was an absolute Godsend to know that you could deadhead home at the end of the week.

It was, and has always been part of the aircrew package.

When I worked in America, I seldom went anywhere without a couple of guys on the jumpseats. They did not even have to be an employee of the airline I worked for but they absolutely HAD to have a professional FAA licence.

There occasionally was the odd person who deeply resented this perk of our profession and they were usually from the non-aircrew employees. The only possible motive for sh*t stirring was one of pure unadulterated jealousy.

I suspect that the gentleman with the ES-callsign belongs to the latter camp.

[JW411]

One further addition to my last post;

Unless EASA has made huge changes:

Deadheading into an immediate duty counts as Flight Duty Time.

Deadheading out of an immediate duty does not count as Flight Duty Time.

[1000ft Cruiser]

Personally I try and sit in the flight deck when J/S possitioning, even if I don't know the flight crew. Guaranteed every time I need to possition from my home to my base the flight has 188 pax plus 50 screaming babies and the only seat left is seat B or E in between a flatulant 25 stone manatee and some lunatic plane spotter who asks questions for the entirity of the flight. For some reason the concept of pilots sitting on a plane and not flying it is completely absurd to most pax and they stare at you as if you've got antlers or something.

Survive all that and you get home and have nightmares about scratchcards.

[Deeply Concerned]

To return to the original question. Does RYR issue a ticket free of charge to the 'employee'? In which case the system is working correctly as I believe they can legitimately do this provided the passenger is a genuine staff passenger on duty and they board as a passenger through the gate. Less clear if the passenger is an independent contractor. This would amount to handing out free tickets without payment of appropriate taxes.

Much more serious if the passenger merely breezes through the crew channel in uniform. This bypasses security and immigration requirements as well as evades the appropriate taxes.

[mini-jumbo]

provided the passenger is a genuine staff passenger on duty

I think what the OP was getting at was the "on duty" part. They may be listed as "operating crew" but when they are on a day off and not being paid for the duty, and it is not being logged as a duty period, they aren't "on duty", and definitely not "operating crew".

[Depone]

What are you trying to achieve by moaning about Ryanair pilots positioning to and from their bases without paying their own employers to do so?

They position in uniform, the time is counted as duty time, they have to be fit to fly, they go through the pax gate, they are noted on the loadsheet.

It is not exactly a perk and it is what has been happening for flight crews all around the work for decades.

If you want to have a witch hunt against FR please pick an issue that actually matters and does not impact negatively on pilots who are already suffering by being based away from their loved ones.

[EdnaClouds]

+1 for paying for a flight rather than jumpseating with RYR! :O

[SD.]

They position in uniform, the time is counted as duty time, they have to be fit to fly

That statement isn't entirely truthful is it?

[Boeingflyer]

FR pilots use off days to travel to all bases. Even if thay have a home base, thay travel to all bases on there off days, and It's not part of there duty time, wich it should be..
Cant understand why FR pilots accept this, wich is unlegal...!! And thay dó it on there own exspences..
FR pilots, why dont you sue this scam of a company.. It's pure slavery

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Do you position on day one, work three days then position home on day five? Or do you position on the last of your days off work five days the position home on the first of your days off?

[WallyWumpus]

LSM,

The latter.

[Utrinque]

What concerns me is that there is no system in place to stop pilots positioning on Day 1 in the morning to operate 4 sectors in the afternoon. There is a requirement in the ops manual to position the day before. Pilots are not inclined to do this because they lose a day off and have to pay for another night in a hotel. Obviously it is illigal to position in the morning for a long 4 sector day in the afternoon. Pilots risk their licence by doing so but I am surprised the company is not concerned by the fatigue factor, especially with so many young crews poling around.

[Boeingflyer]

B738Driver

Sorry for my spelling, but english is not my native language. But i do belive you can understand what i am saying. If its to painful for you, well look the other way..
And by the way, with your attitude i dont belive you are working as commercial pilot dude..

Over 70% in FR is contracters. In subartQ you must have a assigned base.
Also more than 50% of contracters dont live at there base, and travel to and from home to get to work. For some it will take op to 12 hours to get to there base. That means FR pilots haft to use off days to travel. Deadhead dutytime is not part in there dutytime.
FR pilots must also find out how to get to there base no matter what base pilots are going to check inn on there first day, and also pay for all exspences - Travel,Hotel and Taxi..
Thay maybe get 20Euro more for blocktime, but that does not cover the exspences. The biggest scam is, its not part in there dutytime and thats unleagal !

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Wally, thanks. So in effect the roster is actually seven on two off!

[EcamSurprise]

I work for another company and I commute.
I pay for a apartment in my place of work and also have an aparemt where I spent most of my days off.

I usually pay for tickets on either my last day of earlies or my 1st day off as then again return to work on my last day off.

This is a normal commuting lifestyle and is what hundreds of people do in many companies.

What's the difference?? It is my choice to commute and I have to do it responsibly.

What I don't think is oK in FR is when pilots are out of base. In my company we would be paid to position on duty days and have accommodation provided and receive an extra allowance for being away.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It's not a problem, as such, but the much vaunted 5/4 roster, touted by Ryanair and its disciples is, effectively, a 7/2 roster for many/most of its...employees(?).

You choosing to live a commuting lifestyle is one thing but being forced to live like that is another.

[EcamSurprise]

Well, I think choose is a very loose word.
I am in a base where I don't really want to be, and would much rather be somewhere else. But while I am here I am making the most of it and commuting.

Arn't the FR guys choosing too?
They could establish their lives in XXX base but choose not to.
They don't HAVE to commute. Which is the same for all of us, but we do.

My company also has a fixed roster pattern, but by the same coin as you mention, it is effectively reduced to less days off.
Having said that, commuting IS tiring but managed properly, it isn't a risk.

I am not saying what they do is right, but if your company says "your home base is XXX". Can you REALLY expect them to say.. OK, have day 1 and day 5 just for getting to and from your home base?!
No, because it just doesn't work like that!

I hate commuting, it is anti-social and depressing sometimes.
But let us put some true context onto what is being said above rather than just doing the old FR hate game.

IF a pilot is positioning for an out of base duty on his days off, then that is a very different and important matter.
If it is to his home base, then that is the life that many of us follow.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I think we're talking at slightly crossed purposes. I was talking about Ryaniar telling someone that next week they'll be operating from XXXX airport. As I understand it the pilot is then required to position to that base at his own expense and in his own time, ie last day off. Then to get home, if they finish late, they'd have to position on the first of their days off. XXXX airport could be any on the network. Is that correct?

It's slightly different to commuting to your home base as that's to the same place of work every time.

If my company want me to operate from a base other than my own I will be positioned at their expense on the first day of my working week, I may fly after I've positioned depending on allowable FDP. To get back to my home base I will be positioned on my final working day and be at home for all of my days off.

[EcamSurprise]

Lord Spandex (how very posh that sounds), I completely agree with the above.

I was more responded to those who made comments about positioning to and from home base.

If I were to be out of base, I would absolutely expect to position on day 1 / 5 (or as applicable) at the companies expense, not have to worry about where I am staying and get paid a bit extra for my efforts.. all with it counting towards my duty.
Anything else is dodgy.

[Utrinque]

You have guys paying for apartments where they work, apartments where they live and hotel rooms out of base all at the same time. Hardly surprising they commute outside of their rest period to save the cost of another night in a hotel.

[Bernoulli]

Ryanair must be very grateful to their workforce for subsidising their operation. And the workers must really love their jobs to be willing to take these business expenses on from the Company.

[SID PLATE]

Obviously it is illigal to position in the morning for a long 4 sector day in the afternoon. Pilots risk their licence by doing so but I am surprised the company is not concerned by the fatigue factor, especially with so many young crews poling around.

Untrique .. It's no more illegal (and less tiring) than spending two hours in a car on the motorway before reporting. It all depends on how tired you are when you get there. It's not the distance involved, it's the time, and the amount of stress you endure whilst spending it.

[Denti]

Actually, if you are, even only face-saving officially, part of an operating crew your flight duty time starts at the report time of that flight. Simple EU-OPS rules. Therefore using something like that could lead to more than pointed questions after an incident. During normal operations nobody cares.

My company allowed us to fly for free until around a year ago. We would just print out a ticket at any computer and show up on checkin. However we were not part of the crew, just normal standby passengers with full passenger rights. The company paid for the security and airport charges and still continous to do so until now, however nowadays we have to pay the usual Z class price for the ticket, which on the other hand allows us not to fly standby but on a confirmed fixed booking for only a minor price increase.

Commuting from and to base is normal for many flight crews, so nearly all airlines have some scheme in place to allow that, however they should take care to be legally on the safe side.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Obviously it is illigal to position in the morning for a long 4 sector day in the afternoon. Pilots risk their licence by doing so but I am surprised the company is not concerned by the fatigue factor, especially with so many young crews poling around.

Untrique .. It's no more illegal (and less tiring) than spending two hours in a car on the motorway before reporting. It all depends on how tired you are when you get there. It's not the distance involved, it's the time, and the amount of stress you endure whilst spending it.

Well it all depends. If you are positioning at the behest of the company you are on duty, my company states a maximum of two and a half hours drive and it counts as a sector for the calculation of allowable FDP and that is to a base other than my own. So you can see that positioning could take me over my allowable FDP thereby making my duty illegal. Ryanair get around that by making you position in your own time i.e. the day off before a duty.

If you are driving, or commuting, to your regular base then that doesn't count because you are not on duty until you report. So that is the time that your allowable FDP starts.

[JW411]

In my day, the CAA would only ever allow a 1 hour and 30 minute commute to work before the start of a FDP.

Has this changed and can your current employer show you where the CAA has now changed their mind and now allows a 2 hour and 30 minute drive to the airport?

I am genuinely interested to see who in the CAA has put their signature to this change.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

No it's still an hour and a half for a commute or drive to your normal place of work.

Two and a half and a sector for positioning.

[JW411]

Thanks for that; I misunderstood what you were saying.

Just as a matter of interest, if your rostering department considers a limo ride from Airfield A to Airfield B to be 2 hours and 25 minutes, where would you be then?

For that matter, what would happen if you got stuck on the M25?

I know the answer already but I am just curious to know how your particular crewing department would deal with the situation and how you would respond.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I knew I should've been more specific. The 2.5 hours and a sector only counts if it's self drive.

If you're sat in the back of a limo our allowable FDP starts at the report time and all time (no limit) spent positioning counts as duty but it doesn't count as a sector for FDP purposes.

It's never happened to me at this airline but I assume they'd treat it as a normal delay and utilise up to max FDP.

[JW411]

Thank you for that explanation. My interest in the subject is that I represented the interests of the pilots in my last company for seven years on my own before we got ourselves a council and during that time, I became quite interested in FDPs.

It might surprise you to learn that the CAA Bader rules could actually be more detrimental to my health than the JAA rules.

I wish you luck with EASA.

I am sure that someone in your company will stand up for you and look after your interests.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I think we'll need more than luck!

[Denti]

Apparently there are still different rules in the UK than according EU OPS. Anyway, according EU OPS any duty before an active flight duty is considered flight duty time in full, however is not considered as an operating sector (OPS 1.1105, 5.2). Therefore it reduces the remaining flight duty time in full, but doesn't reduce it via the number of landings. Deadheading after an active duty is only considered duty and has to be taken into account for the required minimum rest.

So, if one is stuck in traffic on a deadhead before duty its tough luck for the company in any case as the likelyhood is high that the flight has to be either delayed or a standby crew called out, in which case the deadhead might become unnecessary in the first place. After duty one has to inform the rostering department so that the rest time can be adjusted accordingly.

Since deadheading of all kinds is a major thing in my company with more than 50 million euros spend a year on that alone we installed CLAs that regulate how that is done, for example self driving is not allowed at all, the company has to provide transportation in suitable forms from and to homebase.

[smith]

I think what the OP is alluding to is, that when you position on your day off and are not on duty, you are not paying taxes and are therefore gaining a competitive advantage over other airlines as in effect you are merely a passenger.

If however, you are repositioned mid roster and it is counted as duty time this is perfectly legal and no APD should be paid.

[tallinnman]

Exactly Smith and I felt the original post should have been in a different thread.

I in no way want to open any can of worms for other employees in the industry.

The Ryanair operation in very impressive - it reminds me of the successful British Cycling team. The one with the department of 'marginal gains' - 1/10th of second here, another there all adding up to game changing performance.

Many have questioned the cycling team's legality (extra round wheels!) but the single governing body appears robust and the rules clear. Their success was hard fought but legal.

With the recent TV programs, flex MTOW, airport subsidies, consumer law breaches, tax & possible APD evasion issues involving Ryanair it appears to me that MOL also pursues every 'marginal gain'.

Hope they're all proved to be above board and legal.

[RAT 5]

It has been alluded to, but could someone please confirm the facts: it seems you can position free on RYR a/c before & after a duty; must be in uniform, appear on the crew voyage report, be fit for duty if required, i.e. no sherbets en-route to TFS, but your roster shows DAY OFF and you are not paid. Positioning time is thus not credited towards weekly, monthly or annual totals. Is that correct?

[kick the tires]

RAT says It has been alluded to, but could someone please confirm the facts: it seems you can position free on RYR a/c before & after a duty; must be in uniform, appear on the crew voyage report, be fit for duty if required, i.e. no sherbets en-route to TFS, but your roster shows DAY OFF and you are not paid. Positioning time is thus not credited towards weekly, monthly or annual totals. Is that correct?

Is it me or is this a strange post that is trying to dig up dirt.

Must be my suspicious but I smell a, ahem, RAT......

[Too Few Stripes]

you might smell a rat but the poster is spot on!

[Yaw String]

Maybe enough said...and original poster could delete this thread in the name of diminishing perks!:{:{

[felixthecat]

Why give the FR pilots a hard time for the free positioning perk? What will you get out of it? Nothing, FR guys have a hard enough time as it is without winging outsiders looking to take further potshots at the company thought the already hardworking pilots.:=

That said as an EX FR skipper who has deserted to the desert ;) Ahhh positioning now for a duty, first class, and flight pay as well :) Come to the desert the grass is greener :) Plus half your mates are here now too :D

[737Jock]

ALT CRZ GREEN:D:D:D:D

[Wirbelsturm]

If UK plc wasn't in love with petty pointless rules in every walk to life

Have you ever tried to get through security/immigration in the US as a non national??? Get a crew members Visa???

Or even, indeed, tried to do business in the US?

Please look inside before throwing platitudes. :ok:

[Narrow Runway]

Wirbelsturm,

What are you going on about?

I was in the USA this weekend. I found the immigration staff entirely fine, at both entry and exit points.

Have I ever applied for a crew members visa? Yes, it was a non event. Very simple indeed.

Did you perhaps fill out the paperwork incorrectly, or did your narrow minded viewpoint present itself naturally for immigration officers to pounce upon?

I'd expect a broader spectrum of tolerance from a BA pilot.

[Wirbelsturm]

or did your narrow minded viewpoint present itself naturally for immigration officers to pounce upon?

A little harsh without knowing the details I think. I haven't always been an 'Airline driver' and have had the priviledge to serve with the armed forces in the past, including excercises and operations with the Americans. Rather than see this for what it was I had to endure a grilling at the embassy as I declared my previous 'life' weapons training. Was that necessary? No, not really. Does it happen every day? Probably not but that was my experience. (much imporved for the renewal I might add)

The problems with the immigration staff do not necessarily need to be me, or my 'narrow minded' viewpoint but the crew under my responsibility. I have found that almost 7 times out of 10 I have had to go to secondary clearance in order to support my crew in US airports. I have also seen immigration staff deliberately force the crew to wait as one passenger out of 250 had failed to fill out the immigration form which the staff took to be indicative of the crew not performing their duties correctly.

My point was simply observing that the 'petty pointless rules' that a previous poster alluded to in the UK also exist in the US and are not the sole preserve of the UK.

[JW411]

If I might be allowed to be a trifle frivolous; a friend of mine (who is still flying for a living) remarked recently that getting a crew visa for the USA is difficult nowadays and should be made impossible.

[Loose rivets]

The ultimate uniformed PAX flight had to be Commander Ian Flemming's flight on a Lufthansa scheduled flight - during the war.

Flemming argued that under the terms of international agreement, the captain could not refuse him. Portugal to Madrid or somesuch.

[RECSAM]

When I worked for FR some years ago I frequently used free travel in uniform both to travel to work and otherwise, including travelling to destinations for job-seeking opportunities. As a perk it was very beneficial and the discomfort of lying with them either in flight deck or cabin was inconsequential. But on one occasion I was arrested and nearly spent a night in a cell because as positioning crew one was allowed to pass through security etc without a boarding pass, but if deadheading then one of these was required. And I didn't have one, nor was operations control aware that this was a requirement! So when Mr Plod gently fingered my collar I was suddenly on the wromng side of the law!

[smith]

The ultimate uniformed PAX flight had to be Commander Ian Flemming's flight on a Lufthansa scheduled flight - during the war.

Flemming argued that under the terms of international agreement, the captain could not refuse him. Portugal to Madrid or somesuch.


http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/EER4/Riveting_tale_chap.jpg