Hawker 4000, Challenger 300 or Falcon 50EX?

[nuficek]

Hi everybody,

our company already operates a G150 and thanks to this forum we have chosen this type. Our boss has just expanded his company and he needs a new midsize jet for coverage of range 3000 to 3200 NM with a good payload and comfortable cabin size with price up to 15M. Most trips will be from west Europe to post-Soviet Union countries.

We are choosing between three candidates:

Hawker 4000 - great range with max payload, good variable cost, great service inspection interval, 2 IRS, low cabin ALT, flat rate to ISA+22, auto-throttle. But there is a big question about the company future. What I know from last news they have canceled all warranty for 1A and 4000. But they are going to continue support all maintenance and spare parts.

Challenger 300 - great comfortable cabin, good residual value, great RWY performance, CAT II. But noisy cabin, no auto-throttle, lower range with max payload.

and Falcon 50EX - low price, great range with max payload. But smaller cabin, higher variable cost.

I would appreciate any experience and advices.

[con-pilot]

First question, is the $15 million budget firm?

Reason I asked, is that there are at least three Falcon 900EXs on the market today under 20 million USD;

Serial number 025, asking 16.950 USD

Serial number 031, asking 14.500 USD

Serial number 048, asking 15.500 USD

You might check into these aircraft, not only will a 900EX meet all of your requirements, but will greatly exceed them.

Go to this link for more information on the above aircraft.

Jets For Sale (http://www.globalair.com/aircraft_for_sale/Business_Jet_Aircraft.html)

[nuficek]

we were also considering this aircraft but it has higher variable cost and MTOW. And we are looking for a newer airplane.

btw how is Falcon's 50EX/900EX dispatch and service reliability?

[LGW Vulture]

....and the Falcon 2000EX/EASy doesn't enter your calculations because....?

[nuficek]

Yes we did, but due to higher asking price we eliminate it from our consideration. Out of our budget range :(

[His dudeness]

Challenger 300 - great comfortable cabin, good residual value, great RWY performance, CAT II. But noisy cabin, no auto-throttle, lower range with max payload.

Can`t comment on the others, but if you buy one with the door between galley and cabin, the cabin noise is bearable... the 300 is a great airplane, loads of fun to fly IMO.

Why do you need an autothrottle? Just asking...

[HS-125]

I think if it was me I'd either be spending the extra money and get a 2000EX or go for one of the older 900EX.

Your situation may change in a few years again, I'd rather have an aircraft that can do all possibilities rather than an aircraft that may not good enough this time next year!

[nuficek]

It's sad that you have to solve the noise this way. But yes sure it's a solution to separate galley and close the door in the lavatory.

The auto-throttle is not necessary but it helps to reduce a workload in complicated situations or in bad weather condition. Just wondering it's standard in comparable jets.

[LGW Vulture]

The 2000EX/EASy is NOT out of your price range!

[nuficek]

2000EX's max payload range is worse than other considered competitors.

[LearjetGA]

I would not consider the Hawker 4000. Less than acceptable support and uncertain future!

The 300 is a fantastic airplane but for that kind of mission, maybe it's also worth considering a G200 ...

CL300 is too shortlegged for 3000 NM with decent alternate in the CIS.

[falconer1]

that a Hawker 4000 is just the same as throwing money down the drain..

Falcon 50 EX ist an excellent aircraft, you probably can get a good one for around 5 - 7 Mio USD...smaller cabin though and only 3200 NM max

Older F900EX, excellent as well and within price range...

If you do not need the cabin of a F900 series.....THEN...

well I would look at nice F2000EX EASy, preferably fresh out of a C-Check or with a C Check included...install the winglets, get the SB for the higher MTOW..

et voila...you will have a "new" F2000LX...

the absolutley best and most reliable bird in that class...for all practical purposes the same range as a F900EX...

the cockpit will be easily upgradable to the newest regs envisioned with EASy II

dream to fly...no problems whatsoever...the folks in the cabin love it, because of the comfort and probably the quietest cabin in production today..

may defintely be in your price range...plus the lowest DOCs in that class

as the old saying goes...if you need constant 3000 - 3300NM range in all directions plus reserves for all kinds of weather you need a 3800 to 4000 NM bird anyway...

[nuficek]

That's not bad idea. What extra budget should we count for this upgrade? +1M?

[con-pilot]

btw how is Falcon's 50EX/900EX dispatch and service reliability?

As for the 50EX, I flew one on a four month, around the world trip and the only maintenance write up we had was the indirect light over the boss's seat, right side forward facing, burned out. That was it.

Oh, a cabin cleaning crew plugged a vacuum cleaner (Hoover) into a passenger's electrical socket and it popped a circuit breaker. Just reset the breaker, no problem.

The 900EX not as much experience as with the 50, but we never had to cancel a trip due to maintenance or lack of parts. I know that some operators have had problems with part availability.

But all in all, no worse than the other types of aircraft we are discussing.

My suggestion is to have a fly-off between the types of aircraft you are looking at, discuss as you are here with the operators about their pros and cons, then sit down and compare which aircraft will fit you operational requirements the best for the value of the money spent.

We did that and settled for a final fly-off between the G-IVSP and the Falcon 900EX. The Falcon 900EX won the competition due to its superior high and hot airport performance, plus the boss's piece of mind for the three engines on the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean crossing we did.

[x933]

If you've got USD15m to play with the world is your oyster. F900EX, CL604 are both within your reach and should make your mission profile.

H4000: Value will most likely drop like a stone. If you are going to pursue this option further get one that's had the block point upgrade done. Oh, and there's not many EASA certified ones out there.
F50EX: Bit of a dinosaur compared to the HA4T and CL30 but a lot of aeroplane for the money - and as long as you use it fairly regularly it'll outlast the cockroaches. I've seen some dipping under $5m.
CL30: Holding value very well, and a good amount to chose from. Again, a lot of aircraft but not nececerally good value.

You haven't mentioned the G200 which is nicely in your budget and will also meet your mission requirement.

[nuficek]

G200 is a little RWY hog and its range rapidly drops down with increasing payload. May be G280 but no one flies yet.

[XEMS]

Any thought given to an Embraer Legacy 600 or 650? The 650 might be a bit out of range, but the 600 gets you a lot of airplane for the money. Looking at asking price (and we all know that NOBODY pays asking price anymore!), you can find them from 17 million US on down. It is a bit of a runway hog, and doesn't do 450, but man, the people in back paying the bills get a Gulfstream cabin for a Citation price. Thirteen passengers if you need the seats. Have a good friend that flies one, and yes, it lacks some goodies like auto throttles, but it is functional. He has almost perfect dispatch reliability, and the aircraft owner just loves the cabin and the baggage compartment. They looked at the 300, and an older 900EX, and decided that bang for the buck the Legacy took the prize for them.

All that being said, this is a great problem to have! Congratulations!

[LGW Vulture]

I think that after all considered and indeed after your own responses, you should really go for the Hawker 4000. You deserve it. Enjoy. :ugh:

[NuName]

DA-900 EX, the pilots love it and so do the pax, the extra space for the pax and baggage on trips around 3,000 nm will be very much appreciated. Also a very workable galley and possibly two loo's. The 50 EX is great but a little cramped on long trips when the folks that pay the bills want to get some sleep.

[nuficek]

Yeah, DA900EX seems to be good choice especially when DOC are almost the same for 900EX and 50EX ($200 difference only?). There is a few of them on the market around 15M. May we should really consider this one too.

[HS-125]

We have a couple of a/c in your price range (CL300, CL604).

PM if of interest.

Cheers
SN

[captainmorgan888]

2000EX's max payload range is worse than other considered competitors.

...that´s correct, but the Falcon 2000 max payload ist 5500lb...

[x933]

Devils advocate on the F50EX vs F900EX debate - F900EX is USD 200/hr more extra (apparently - I haven't looked at the book figures) but with a decent broker working for you you can get a F50EX for $5-6m, maybe lower. A good F900EX will be a lot more than that...

It's only cramped if you're flying it around at max PAX - same as most aircraft. If you're going to fly around regularly with 8-10 PAX it's the wrong aircraft...but early CL604's are dipping under $10m.

[412SP]

What's the avg passenger load? 3 people? 6?

G-IVSP, DA900 or 2000, CL604...

[LGW Vulture]

I see some of the replies on here from those people clearly not involved in the market and it makes me smile. Goodness me. Blind leading the blind. :rolleyes:

[NuName]

Interesting comment LGW Vulture, why would you say that?

[Rcaf914]

Have a lot of time in the 604 so highly recommend. Another type to consider is the jet I'm currently flying, the X. I wouldn't have even considered it prior to my last 2 years with this type. Exceptionally quiet, identical field performance to the 604, good load, decent cabin and FAST. The range is right in the ballpark for,you and the price of a decent, low-time example are under $10 mil.

[TheRobe]

You poor guys...you've never flown Gulfstreams.

[LGW Vulture]

NuName -I'll give you one example. Early 604s can now be bought for anything between US$4 and 7m.

[NuName]

LGW Vulture, smile away, I don't see anyone disagreeing with you.

[Max Payne]

I recently heard that a fully functional G550 handles like a Falcon 50 with complete hydraulic failure. Must be quite a stunning aeroplane. ;)

You poor guys...you've never flown Gulfstreams.

[TheRobe]

Max, you are right, what was I thinking.

What's really important when the boss sends a pilot out the door with $15 million dollars to buy a plane is whether he can dog fight a Falcon better then a Gulfstream.

This forum is just such an eye opener. I have learned so much from the pilots here, I mean the depth and wealth of information here is just staggering.

:rolleyes:

[His dudeness]

Sure, after all the aircraft is just a toy for us pilots... and that is how we decide on what is bought.

I waxed the tails of some many other bizjets, mainly Gulfstreams, you may call me 'Hartmann'.... actually I´m running out of spaces for the 'victory swasticas' painted on the fairly large tail of my Sovereign, I'll need a new one fairly soon.

[nuficek]

Devils advocate on the F50EX vs F900EX debate - F900EX is USD 200/hr more extra (apparently - I haven't looked at the book figures) but with a decent broker working for you you can get a F50EX for $5-6m, maybe lower. A good F900EX will be a lot more than that...

I'm just wondering why is the F50EX price so low? It seems to be still a good airplane with good reliability and appropriate DOC.

[leonard17F]

Hi Nuficek,

Have you considered the G280 ?
I would be happy to discuss this option with you, in particular since you already operate a G150.
Please PM me anytime.
Leonard

[LGW Vulture]

Yup. A G280 is a great idea with a US$15m budget! :ugh:

[TheRobe]

FYI - I like the Astra SPX, as fast as anything out there and it goes high. If the boss doesn't dig that cabin, fine...time to blow some money. NBAA numbers out of the door, time to install stripper poles and bedrooms, it's a party.

I used to think common sense flight departments were the way to go, but at this point watching a slew of idiot I know get big jet types for a boss that just wants some 'show'...hell why not - Give him what he wants. You get your $30k type, it's to expensive, the flight department crumbles in a couple of years, you can tell the next guy you flew Challengers, even though you only have 200 hours in one.

I guess I need to get with the program.

[leonard17F]

My dear Vulture, you seem to be banging your head on walls way too much.....
You might want to be a tad more patient with your fellow aviators, ...and more market savvy.....

[LGW Vulture]

Banging my head is a natural reaction when confronted with so much bull$hit. The thread starter takes the biscuit - opens a debate; denies a type because of a particular reason; sees the error of his ways when his reasoning is incorrect and invents another reason - and this guy it appears is to be tasked by his Boss to look for the next level aircraft. Or then again is he?

My guess, someone else is making the decision and this Goon is desperately trying to do his homework. For that reason, I'm out. Good luck everyone.

[NuName]

Well mate, you invite youself in, and you invite yourself out. I don't see why you get so hot under the collar, the guy only asked for other folks opinions for christ sake, better than thinking you know it all, like some. All the people that call the shots normally have more than just their pilot to advise them what they need, and most of them already know what they want. We are all corrupted by our own opinions of the aircraft we would like to fly and the boss knows that when he allows you some input. Why call the chap a goon for asking a perfectly reasonable question, rather arrogant what!

[TheRobe]

Nuname, speak for yourself, not all pilots buy a toy for themselves...some of us get a plane that fits the mission.

That said, given the choice, I find it's funny that pilots will pick fat whales that sit the 30s getting hammered in the weather and always having to turn for the airlines.

So be it. If the boss wants to drop 20 mil on pig and put his nephew at the controls, he gets a big turd that will cost him his shirt. Never fail.

[NuName]

Do you honestly think there are principles out there that allow a pilot to go and spend millions of $s on what they want, if that idiot exists he well deserves what he gets. And if you bother to read the initial post, thats what its all about, getting other peoples input to identify a good candidate aircraft for the mission. After all, the guy must have been asked or he would not have posted. I only said that as pilots we all have our favourites and as such, if the aircraft is suitable, we might suggest it.

[CL300]

you shall book an appointment with a specialist of some kind...or go through meditation, or alternatively have a break...
But i think i can trace your anger to the ergonomics of the SPX, and its "duck walk" on a wet runway, or it's Skydrol system ? or Rubber boots ?
Talking about rubber you shall start using some, it will ease your inner pain..

Have a wonderful and restful life ...






I love the 50EX, operating costs might be a stopper if not flown very often. The Hawker 4000 born Horizon, is just what it is, a plane on the horizon, do not touch it.
The BD100 is the best in its class, performance of the EX for half of the operating, but 2 or 3 times the acquisition price, then it is a cash and accounting exercise.
Except if the famous 80% travel pattern calls for more than 2000 miles with 8 pax + i would not go to 2000/900/GLF or other larger airframes, you are loosing the benefits of the small cabin. But if your routine is 3000 Nm+ no question, get three engines no airstart and bang.....900EX
But like it was said in other posts, the end decision might well be very different than what you would expect.

[His dudeness]

NuName, you honestly think arguing with this guy will achieve anything?

He knows everything. Period.

You and I are just idiot pilots. Despite the fact he doesnt know you or me or the circiumstances we operate/work in.

Not worth a second thought IMO.

@CL300: :D :D :D

[nuficek]

We haven't made any decision yet. Still considering more ways. I've never said we are not in touch with any specialist for this acquisition. I was just looking for any new good opinions from real flying guys and may be new idea or suggestions. Our base mission is 3000NM, 4-8 people. That's the reason why I'm playing with max payload vs range.

[CL300]

3000 Nm Russia bound, is like coming back to East coast from Europe , you need PLENTY of fuel.. therefore your plane is a 4000+ Nm plane. and 3000 Nm is equal to 8 hours in the plane.....well....the aircrafts you mentioned on your first post are not suitable.

You are left with the most economical : Falcon 900c / EX ; the american muscle : Gulfstream 4/4SP; and the sleek beast Global Express.

The logical buy is the falcon, because of the support and the technology used. The most comfortable is the Global, the pride leaves you with the GLF.

Anyway, it will be a good step from the 150....

[NuName]

Hi dude, your right of course, being stuck in a hotel on your own gives rise to pointless conversation at times, now, how can I get into corporate ;)

[His dudeness]

now, how can I get into corporate

Big secret, could tell ya but then I had to shoot you. ;)


I flew the guys for 14 years as a lowlife air taxi dude before they showed some mercy and employed me. Thats how I made my entry into corporate...

[Mizuno boy]

Agree with CL300, 3000 nm. in CIS is tough with initial mentioned aircraft due to distance of alternates and using 85% Boeing probables.
Also would not consider Falcon 900C due to the -5BR engines and not many of them produced which lowers residual value. 900EX/DX are better options with the -60 engines.

Cheers
MB

[Mizuno boy]

And there it is, the original poster asks a question and the thread turns into a Pissing/Johnson contest.
As a 25 plus year corporate pilot, with a little bit of experience in acquisition, completion, delivery, budgeting and managing, I find it very sad that we have turned this and other Biz Av threads into this.
If you want to discuss individual merits, or issues take it off line, otherwise how about we try to help someone who has asked some questions to enhance and/or expand their operation for their principal or corporation.

Cheers
MB

[NuName]

Nobody is forced to read this forum, if it upsets you then just don't. However, I do agree with your principle and to this end I did volunteer my opinion to him but if someone, because of this, wishes to snipe I will respond, as I would expect you to. As far as taking it off line, well that would be the end of the conversation wouldn't it? This is still a freedom of speech forum. :ok:

[nuficek]

I was busy a little bit and when I come back I'm wondering how this thread turned out. I wanted just your opinion and experience. I thought it can help me to make a better decision and it can help to anybody else. It should be primary purpose of this forum.

[His dudeness]

I wanted just your opinion and experience. I thought it can help me to make a better decision and it can help to anybody else. It should be primary purpose of this forum.

It should. OTOH I can´t restraint myself from shooting back sometimes if I read drivel like "theRopes" post. To me he sounds like a bitter dude who wants to build a case for consulting, in the process trying to destroy credibility of people here (incl. mine)

Thats why I choose to answer like I did. Guilty your honor.

As a 25 plus year corporate pilot, with a little bit of experience in acquisition, completion, delivery, budgeting and managing, I find it very sad that we have turned this and other Biz Av threads into this.
If you want to discuss individual merits

I have only 23 years under my belt in basically the same field - oh wait, you did not want to discuss merits, did you?

Is it best to let it stand or to let the asking guy 'know' what experience your opinion comes from especially if it is questioned ? (yes I know I could write anything)

[Rcaf914]

TR- Clearly you are a god among us mere mortals. I can't even begin to imagine what it is like to fly or work with/for you. Great CRM in your cockpit I'm sure.

Maybe I can paraphrase the original thought of this thread, before you descended into d##k measuring. The question was, what would you recommend? A Camry, an Accord or an Altima? You suggest a Cadillac Escalade. Clearly you understand the question even better than the original poster. Yet you continue to push your view. Yup, an Escalade is a heck of a vehicle, just not in the same class.

And while I'm at it...why can't a fellow aviator ask for opinions from his peers about this? Do you believe he will tell his boss "we should buy a xxxx" because he read it on PPRUNE? He just wants some operator perspective. Something a seller or manufacturer might omit.

And yes experience does count. There's a reason everybody references years in a position and total flying time when looking (and paying) for quality. It's not the only thing...attitude should count. :ugh:

[galaxy flyer]

Hawker 4000, you must be kidding at any price--it'll be an expensive orphan in a year.

DA50- cheap, good PERF, but getting expensive to operate.

CL300-sweet flying, PERF pretty much matches the 50, but much better cabin.

Your choice,

GF

[NuName]

Robe man, I hope Obama's health reforms allow you the medication you so obviously need, get well soon.

[Booglebox]

Crikey, some entertaining handbag-swinging in this thread. :E

OP may want to add Gulfstream G280 and perhaps Cessna C680 to his consideration list.
However, Challenger 300 probably the best bet IMHO, overall, out of the 3 suggested.
Falcons are great aircraft but seriously expensive to maintain.

[His dudeness]

perhaps Cessna C680

Njet for 3000nauticals...no way.

Falcons are great aircraft but seriously expensive to maintain.

is that still true for the newer ones?

[Booglebox]

Unfortunately yes, your dudejesty. I've heard horror stories like $75k for a set of brake packs for a 900EX, etc. :(
They are cracking airplanes though, from a performance, passenger and crew standpoint. :cool:

The "new" Sovereign with winglets has slightly better range than the old one... not quite 3000nm but pretty close.

[His dudeness]

They are cracking airplanes though

And they look dead sexy (I especially like the F50) and I want to fly one.

Oh well, me and my dreams.

As for the sov, well Cessna stated sumethin like 2847nm (with 2 pax IIRC) for the now "old" sov and one might be able to squeeze that out of the airplane, but I´m a firm believer of having at least one 'backdoor' open and that for me is that I plan on FL430 and not 470 + HSC (to have FL470 and LRC as a 'backup') on long flights and with the alternate situation and sometime very wide areas of bad wx I wouldnt plan the sov on more than 2300-2400nm...
Cessna themself say 2500nm with 2000lbs payload at zero winds, HSC & 200nm alternate (again: old sov)

And with 6-8 guys in the back the sov is stretched in every sense. (IMO) The numbers of the new sov are preliminary btw...
There is the range vs. payload graph for the new sov:
Performance & Specs (http://www.cessna.com/citation/sovereign/new-citation-sovereign-performance.html)

If you look at the second graph - flight planning, they say fuel used for 4 pax, HSC, optimum altitude and 3000nm is roughly 10000lbs - that would leave you with 1348 lbs (nev Sov max fuel is 11348 vs 11223 of the old)

Thats not enough for comfort in a Russian winter secenario IMO.

We sometimes do trips like HTDA-HESN-EDFM (3800nm) or the like and the difference between having 4 or 6 to 8 pax is very obvious.

Ours is probably one of the lightest ones I might add (DOW 18139lbs / includes 80lbs galley and 30 lbs maps) , meaning we can have at a payload of 1188 lbs at max fuel (11223lbs).
We use 212 lbs for a male pax, so we could have 5 pax with 128 lbs of luggage on board.

The new Sov has slightly higher weights but I guess the 2 mtr of span will weigh something too.

[LGW Vulture]

Well you heard it here first - one available and esteemed Hawker 4000 (2009 YoM with less than 1,000 hrs TT) has just been reduced by US$3m to a paltry US$6.5m. Now, all of a sudden it looks a little more tempting ....... doesn't it? :ouch::ouch::ouch:

[cldrvr]

Even at 6.5 (that is MB isn't it?) it is too expensive if you have to manufacture your own parts.

[cldrvr]

I do like these threads, loads of comparing of apples and oranges.

How about the price of tea in China today, amazing isn't it?

[CL300]

Especially when the court allowed Raython to sell the remaining airframes "as is where is" for whatever somebody want to do with them.
Closing H4000/H900/H400 production at once and doing what Beechcraft knows what to do : PROPELLERS.
Honestly : a mistubishi airframe with the noisiest engine available, a legacy pressure cooker deiced with alcohol, and a fiber/plywood bird with the most insane avionics ever build... Time for a break...break them all like the Starship..(Beautiful but ..well...)

[LGW Vulture]

I was looking for a tongue in cheek smilie but couldn't find it. :rolleyes:

[safelife]

Don't you think there will be a solution for supporting the Hawker jets in the future?
When Fokker went tits up there were similar moanings but nowadays Fokker Services does a good job providing the neccessary services.

[mutt]

Are you willing to gamble your bosses money (and most likely your job) on that?

Mutt

[cldrvr]

Don't you think there will be a solution for supporting the Hawker jets in
the future?
When Fokker went tits up there were similar moanings but nowadays
Fokker Services does a good job providing the neccessary services.


Yes, that's why they are selling a 3 year old airframe with 900 hours for pennies on the dollar.

Only an idiot with more money than sense, or some rich dude listening to his uninformed crew would even consider a Hawker right now.

What are you going to suggest next for the OP, get a GII???? That meets the requirements, and each and every thread always gets some muppet to suggest a GII, that is sorely missing on this thread thus far.

283 F100's were deliverd compared to the handful of 4000's, nobody can afford to maintain the current fleet of 4000's. Why do you think that Hawker themselves just cancelled all warranties on the airframes, if they can't make it work financially to maintain a handful of airframes, nobody else has a hope in hell doing so.

If you own a 4000, find the nearest hurricane/typhoon and park it in its path.

[jetopa]

It's always interesting to see how everybody is an advocate for her/his favourite product - and I am probably no exception.

Best way to go (also in order to keep your job stable):

- get professional advice

- don't be misled by what you as the driver would like to steer - look at the facts that really matter to your boss, instead.

- don't buy anything exotic, unless you're willing to accept the penalties

- find out where the nearest service center is, how many simulators there are and where and how many freelance pilots there are, in case you'll need a replacement.

- testfly some equipment with your boss onboard, if you can.

[aerobat77]

our company already operates a G150 and thanks to this forum we have chosen this type.

:}:E

very cool statement !

[sooty3694]

[/QUOTE]
Don't you think there will be a solution for supporting the Hawker jets in the future?
When Fokker went tits up there were similar moanings but nowadays Fokker Services does a good job providing the nsafelife[QUOTE]

Keep up with the news chaps. Two investors and $600m cash injection. I have a feeling that the World's best selling biz jet will survive the recent stormy weather...They have been doing it for it for a LONG time.

[cldrvr]

Keep up with the news chaps. Two investors and $600m cash injection.

easy there tiger, 2 hedge funds, who together hold 900Mn of the Hawker debt will do a debt swap for 81% equity, MS will set up another line of credit for 600Mn if the remaining 2.5Bn will be written of.

So not quite 2 investors, just 2 debt holders swapping for equity, the 600Mn will be used for debtor in possession financing, pay settlements and cure payments.

Not as rosy as you make it sound, the 2 Hf's (Bain and Centerbridge) are just trying to make a go of it instead of writing of their debt for now.

Of course the entire pension liability thus far accumulated will be written of and swapped for the remaining 19%

So the 2 Hf's will get a company with no pension liability and no debt and can use the 600Mn from the bank for themselves as in possession financing without putting a penny in. Why not give it go, better then writing of their 900 odd Mn now, at least they can milk it for a bit longer.

It is however still up to the courts to approve the emergence from Chapter 11, not a done deal yet.

[deefer dog]

Well yes, but who cares about the small print!

[Rcaf914]

So what did you end up getting? We are in the market to upgrade as well and are wondering what you bought and how it is working out.

Cheers,

RCAF914